'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech

[Hellraiser]

Never a huge fan, I make use of it when its all I have.

Prime = Command Mech
E = Favorite new config.
Custom = 2x Arrow + 20 rounds + Flamer

[iamfanboy]

I hate to crap all over the Hellbringer love parade, but c'mon folks, it's one of the worst designs to come out of TRO 3050 - not just the Clan section, but the whole thing.

A year ago, I made this post:

Comparing the Mad Dog to the Hellbringer is like comparing apples to broccoli: sure, people TELL you that one is good for you, but one of them is good for you AND tastes good!

The Mad Dog has 35 more points of armor, loses out on 6 crit spaces for podding, has one less heat sink, and carries exactly one-HALF ton less of pod space. For my money, that beats the Hellbringer any day.

Of course, none of this beats the real bear in the room, the Stormcrow. 60 more armor points than the Hellbringer, faster, excellent canon loadouts, etc, etc. Or the Timber Wolf.

I mean, the Hellbringer is just bad when compared to so many other 'Mechs in the Clan lineup, even the initial invasion. I had a friend that used to call them "Poppers" because they were so easy to kill, and if we as GMs were setting up Clanner opposition for a GM group, we'd usually include a Hellbringer in the Star just to give them a near-free kill.

Sadly, Battleforce has done nothing to dispel my theory that the Stormcrow is a much better 'Mech than the Hellbringer. The Stormcrow-Prime costs 21 points, Damage 5/5/2, A/S of 6/3, and a Mv of 6 versus the Hellbringer-Prime's stats of 27,  D 4/4/2 w/ OV 3, A/S 4/4, and Mv 5. The higher armor means more hits before getting to the creamy center of the Stormcrow, the faster speed means being able to dictate range better, and those six points can pay for an Elemental point to hitch on the Stormcrow.

Even comparing best/best variants, the Stormcrow-E versus Hellbringer-A, the Hellbringer comes up remarkably short. Mv6, A/S 6/3, Damage 7/6/2 (!!) w/ OV 2, PRB and RCN, and a cost of only 21 points makes the E-variant a clear winner over the pathetic Hellbringer at MV5, A/S 4/4, Damage 4/4/3 w/ OV 1, and its one miserable advantage of 19 points.

(frankly, doing this comparison does more to cement my theory that BF/Alpha Strike point cost should be calculated based on the aggregate of the unit's stats, but that's another discussion.)

When someone quoted my post in-character and called me "A cowardly Inner Sphere surat," my in-character response was:

Spoken like a Warrior without a Bloodname over 30 - seeking to go out in a blaze of glory, hoping to get into the Remembrance because he managed to do the impossible: last longer than twenty seconds in a Hellbringer.

However, those of us WITH Bloodnames, who have an entire Cluster or Galaxy to worry about, need to look at the bigger picture, and an OmniMech that becomes mission crippled within the first half-minute of combat is a OmniMech that is not suitable to anything but suicide missions for dezgra warriors.

Yet any attempts to use this machine and its podspace for something it CAN do well with minimal risk to its thin skin (such as fire support with Arrow IV or a substantial numbers of LRMs) meets opposition from warriors who seek the aforementioned blaze of glory.

So therefore we agree that you would make an excellent pilot for any of the standard Hellbringer configurations. However, I do not like wasting materiel simply to satisfy the glory-needs of a desperate warrior, so I would immediately trade any Hellbringers in my Cluster to a less far-seeing Star Colonel.

I compare that to the Mad Dog, which at least compensates for its slightly lower armor than other line units by having longer-range configurations well suited for fencing at range until closing to finish off opponents with its lasers.

Frankly, if I have underbid on Elementals, I would prefer not to rely upon an uncertain, single-use weapon such as B-Pods to combat my opponent's deployment of opposing battle armor. Fortunately my warriors are well-experienced in the use of pulse lasers, and I have authorised the addition of hand actuators to at least two Omnimechs in each Star in case Inner Sphere surats ambush an ill-equipped unit with their battle armor.

-Star Colonel Fanboy Tseng, Ghost Bears Beta Galaxy, 12th Bear Chevaliers (CO).

[Wildonion]

I always like the Hellbringer because the first book that featured the 'Mech (The first that I read, mind you.) had it in a support role. I am going off of an older memory here, but I believe it was used to manage the comm channels for a regiment of Wolf's Dragoons, which seemed to make a lot of sense. Great electronics, ER PPCs to threaten enemies from afar, and enough armor to survive a spattering of return fire while you do your job. That most of the variants carry a healthy amount of weapons for long range fighting only helps to further overcome the weakness of lackluster armor. Had the design devoted a few more tons to ammo, rather than the damnable NARC launcher, the A variant would have been wonderful for mitigating the armor risk with a bevy of long distance weapons.

Similar to many of the other designs which existed in this era of the game, both Clan and Inner Sphere, the Hellbringer doesn't make the best use of tonnage. It really is just an overgrown medium. It looks like a Warhammer and fights like a Rifleman, using that tonnage for barely enough heat sinks to use the main laser array and eschewing armor, so play it ferocious and ride the heat wave. Seems to work for Star Captain Mara, if nothing else.

[Scotty]

I hate to crap all over the Hellbringer love parade, but c'mon folks, it's one of the worst designs to come out of TRO 3050 - not just the Clan section, but the whole thing.

I don't think I understand.  The Hellbringer is by far a suboptimal chassis (worse than the lemons on the IS half of 3050, though?  Not a chance).  That's also the draw of it.  At least, that's what keeps me coming back time and again, and the same with its descendant.  Of course there are ways to do it better.  That's entirely not the point.

[iamfanboy]

I don't think I understand.  The Hellbringer is by far a suboptimal chassis (worse than the lemons on the IS half of 3050, though?  Not a chance).  That's also the draw of it.  At least, that's what keeps me coming back time and again, and the same with its descendant.  Of course there are ways to do it better.  That's entirely not the point.

I stand by what I said. It's by far the worst Omni of the original 16, and the only other heavy in the book which stacks higher on the jank factor IMHO are the Quickdraw and Jagermech - not exactly hallowed company to stand in.

In fact, I just realized something... The Hellbringer is the Clan Jagermech. Both have average speed for their weight class in their respective technology base, but put far too much of their tonnage into their weaponry at the expense of survivability. Like the Jagermech, (which has the Blackjack!) a lighter 'Mech can match the Hellbringer in all important respects and is even its superior in several ways: the Stormcrow.

The Jagermech, though, belongs to a military that can use its specialization and believes in supporting fire (something it's good at!), and I personally have accepted the JM6-A into my Davion forces wholeheartedly.

The Hellbringer, though...

The Clans emphasize the individual MechWarrior, trying to get the best out of each Warrior by pitting them not only against the enemy but their comrades. In one aspect, the idea of an all-out attack to preserve limited resources, the Hellbringer makes sense. But it also emphasizes the madness of the Warrior culture as well, a mania on proving yourself now now now at the expense of tomorrow - or even ten seconds from now.

Not to mention the idea that YOU, the Warrior, are so much more important than everyone else in the touman that dying in an effort to prove yourself the first day of battle takes precedence over being there for your comrades for the rest of your career.

...Man, I really am a Ghost Bear on this subject, aren't I? Is the Hellbringer even on the Ghost Bear RATs?


EDIT: The only reason to like it is for reasons of flavor, rather than effectiveness or practicality. On a longer-lasting tabletop game, it's practically free ClanTech salvage - and worth it even if the Hellbie kills the first or second 'Mech to go after it, because it's chock-full of Clanny goodness.

Hellbringer: The ClanTech Pinata! Smash it and all sorts of goodies come tumbling out!

[SCC]

I think Fanboy has a point, this thing is designed like the Clans design tanks, it's not designed to last

[iampoch]

Hahaha I lol'd hard at the ClanTech Piñata :-)

[SCC]

On the Clan Tech pinata front, that's what massed AC/2's loaded with armor piercing ammo are for, hopefully you'll get some crits, enough to take it out

[wantec]

If the Hellbringer (a first-gen, rushed production omni) is the worst of the original 16, it's got a close competitor, the Fire Moth. One of the main complaints about the Hellby is the armor, it's only got 61% coverage, well the Fire Moth only has 55%. A medium pulse laser (Clan or IS) goes internal anywhere and a large (Clan or IS) will destroy any section except the CT in a single shot.

At least most Hellby variants can fight from long range to reduce the incoming damage. It's really too bad that MASC isn't pod-mountable, I would have like to seen a Hellby with MASC & a Supercharger, just for the craziness of it all.

[Diablo48]

If the Hellbringer (a first-gen, rushed production omni) is the worst of the original 16, it's got a close competitor, the Fire Moth. One of the main complaints about the Hellby is the armor, it's only got 61% coverage, well the Fire Moth only has 55%. A medium pulse laser (Clan or IS) goes internal anywhere and a large (Clan or IS) will destroy any section except the CT in a single shot.

At 20 tons the Fire Moth is too small to get decent armor coverage, and at 10/15(20) it is fast enough to avoid fire so sacrificing some of its meager capacity for more firepower is not a terrible idea.  I would honestly rate it as the best of the light omnis because it actually has the speed to take advantage of its small frame which the others lack which makes the Fire Moth a more useful platform that is not overshadowed by larger designs like the Stormcrow.

Also, half the point of the Fire Moth is playing Elemental taxi which gives it some extra protection on the way in.

[iamfanboy]

Yes, even in Battleforce the Fire Moth's a threat - at MV 13 it can consistently generate a +4 TMM, even if one hit puts it out of commission with A/S of only 1/1...

But they have completely different mission profiles. Nominally, the Hellbringer is a trooper/heavy cav 'Mech, with a LOT of competition even from the basic 16: Adder, Nova, Stormcrow, Vulture, Summoner, Timber Wolf, and the Gargoyle. Of those, none have the armor problems that the Hellbringer does; only the Adder has less, and it's 35 freaking tons.

As a fast BA taxi/recon 'Mech, the Fire Moth's competition is valid but still leaves room for it: Mist Lynx, Viper, and Ice Ferret. Flat-out, especially with MASC, it leaves them in the dust and generates an unbelievable TMM.

Hell, in my vague plans for the full Cluster of minis I want, I've got a slot for five Fire Moths in a single Nova that will be the stuff of nightmares for anyone coming up against it.

When you compare the Hellbringer to any Omni in the same mission profile, it simply can't do anything better than a single one of them. There simply isn't anything which can make use of the crit spaces left aside from things like Arrow IV, and if you want to hear something sad... the Naga is a better Arrow IV platform.


However, I do take back what I said earlier: The Kit Fox is the WORST OMNIMECH in TRO 3050. To perdition's flames with that hunk of trash. The Hellbringer is a close second.

[jymset]

When you compare the Hellbringer to any Omni in the same mission profile, it simply can't do anything better than a single one of them.

In RS 3145 it will do something only it can do out of the first 16.

[Scotty]

But they have completely different mission profiles. Nominally, the Hellbringer is a trooper/heavy cav 'Mech, with a LOT of competition even from the basic 16: Adder, Nova, Stormcrow, Vulture, Summoner, Timber Wolf, and the Gargoyle. Of those, none have the armor problems that the Hellbringer does; only the Adder has less, and it's 35 freaking tons.

I think I have identified the problem.

The Hellbringer is not a trooper 'Mech.  It's barely a cavalry 'Mech, by dint of its speed.

No, the Hellbringer is something much more focused than either of those incredibly broad definitions.  The Hellbringer is a headhunter, a duelist.  A platform that is designed to pick one target, and either completely destroy them, or inflict massive damage before in turn being destroyed - usually at much smaller cost to the Hellbringer in material than to its opponent.

It does not soak damage well.  Everyone knows that.  It does not sustain engagements well.  Everyone knows that too.

But what the Hellbringer can do better than any 'Mech in the original 16 is force an opponent to respond.  Even a Dire Wolf can be strategically outpaced, and rather easily to avoid forcing a showdown.  Gargoyles suffer from anemic weaponry.  Timber Wolves and Summoners come close, because they share a speed, but neither of them can lay down the pain quite as consistently as a Hellbringer - especially at cost.  The Stormcrow may be a "better" chassis regarding optimization, but it's a whole six tons short on podspace.  That's an entire ER PPC.

I've said it before, and will continue to say it.  A Hellbringer's job is not to snipe.  It is not to try and outlast its opponent.  The Hellbringer's job is to close, maul, mangle, and destroy anything that gets in its way, and hope that it survives long enough to do meaningful damage.  Which, unless the pilot gets rather unlucky, or is particularly stupid, is almost impossible to fail.

It's less analogous to the Jagermech as it is to the Rifleman.  Use and abuse that heat scale, kill shit, and then survey the wreckage, whether it be yours or theirs.

[iamfanboy]

Scotty, that's not an unreasonable point to make: it's designed for duels, and a one-shot takedown.

My problem is that, because of how the Battletech rules resolve all fire simultaneously, it usually doesn't survive past the first duel, and never the second one.

If BT rules were different and it could hit and kill before its opponent could fire back (taking the chance that its opponent would fire first and kill IT as part of the Clans' strategy) then it'd be a valid unit in my eyes.

But that ain't the way the rules work. So if you're using it as a headhunter/duelist, it's a one-shot weapon, a cruise missile on legs. It will kill what you aim it at, but it's going to be expended afterwards. From one point of view, that's very Clanlike, but it's not the GOOD part of the Clans, and just seems wasteful of materiel to me... which is very anti-Clan.

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that the Hellbringer, with its heavy firepower/low armor rating, is a high priority target which is easy to kill: not a good combination. Most commanders with a grain of sense are going to target it first chance they get, and they won't need a second chance, or even a lot of firepower to kill it.

EDIT: Sorry about being insistent here, but I only have a few things that trigger my annoyance nerve when it comes to Battletech. 1) That the Grigori is better as a 4/6 Deva impersonator than a 5/8 heavy cav (What a design flop!); 2) that the Hellbringer is a good 'Mech; 3) That it's NEVER OKAY to modify a design in any way and the ONLY HOLY WAY to play Battletech is using canon designs (It's not! modifying and redesigning are part of the bloody rules!); and 4) that the AC/5 is anything less than the worst 3025 weapon (The PPC and Large Laser are both better!). So this debate does touch on one of my nerves, but I shall remain civilised.

[iampoch]

The AC5 is best used using special ammo. Even halving the amount per ton, you still get a respectable amount. Slap in two tonnes there, each having a different ammo :-)

[Scotty]

One of your peeves demonstrates exactly why I love the Hellbringer: custom configs.

The Hellbringer D is probably the least idiotic of the canon configs.  Now, imagine what you could do if instead the tonnage wasted on anything and everything not pain were repurposed?  Twenty eight and a half tons is a lot to be going that fast.  It gets even better if you supercharge it.

Take, for example, a Hellbringer config that mounts the quad PCs of the D.  That's already damn near certainly max overflow heat on an enemy target, and up to quite a bit on two.  Or it's between 12 and 72 damage with an average of 46 (which is a lot) to anything that doesn't track heat.  Six tons of ammo just in case, though on a Hellbringer, four tons of ammo is actually pretty alright.  Now add a ten-count of AP Gauss, with three more tons of ammo.  There's still an extra ton in there, so slap on an ER Medium.  If you're feeling cheeky and want to really embrace the "Burn bright, burn fast" mentality, drop the PC ammo to four tons, and then add two more ER MLs.

What do you get?  A 5/8(10) monstrosity that can deal up to 48 heat or 72 damage at IS PPC ranges, and then switch seamlessly to 45 damage at closer range against anything more heavily armored than a person.  Against those, it murders unholy amounts.  Best part?  +4 running PC volley, or +1 running close-range murder fest volley.  Swap PCs in or out as needed at close range to keep the murder party rolling.

Use the strengths of the chassis, shut down your opponent, force a response, and then choose between devouring whatever ends up being the response, or burn your original target into a smoking glass crater in the ground.  The Hellbringer does that better than anything.

[Diablo48]

Custom configurations really screw the Hellbringer because anything it can do, the Timber Wolf can do better.  Its 16 continuous crits are enough for the Timber Wolf to mount a Long Tom Artillery Cannon so that argument holds no water, and the DHS in the engine give it more effective pod space than the Hellbringer.

[UnLimiTeD]

The hellbringer can mount over thirty one-shot launchers and the coolant pods to fire them in two rounds!
Actually, it's a bit short on pod space, so you have to add heavier stuff.
Yes, yes, more armour always goes a long way, but you can't possibly argue with lunacy.  :))

[iampoch]

Shouldn't the Loki be compared and used as an oversized medium instead of a heavy? If thought up that way how would it compare?

[Weirdo]

Kinda like how many Marik assaults are best used as overweight heavies? An interesting idea. You wind up with similar roles, with the Loki either providing direct(and sometimes indirect) fire support for faster mediums, or using its sheer firepower to act as a bully and use heavy firepower to quickly subdue the mediums it can catch.

Basically, if you can use an Albatross, you can use a Loki. 8)

[Trajan Helmer]

Custom configurations really screw the Hellbringer because anything it can do, the Timber Wolf can do better. 

Yeah, but the Hellbringer does it with ten less tons. In a tight bid, you're more likely to win it with a 'bringer than a Timby. As someone else mentioned in the past, "The Hellbringer is bad but it's bad with balls."  Considering the Falcons made it to the top of the Clan-pile using it widely, it says a lot about their combat skills. For the Homeworlders, I became a partial fan of the Coyotes when they decided to "redeem" the design. 

In comparison, anybody can win with a Timber Wolf. The true terrors are those who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis.

[iamfanboy]

Shouldn't the Loki be compared and used as an oversized medium instead of a heavy? If thought up that way how would it compare?

That's what the Thor is for. :D

I've personally always thought that the light/medium/heavy/assault paradigm is misleading as far as categorizing 'Mechs; instead, they should be categorized on ground speed and weaponry ranges. E.G. the difference between a light fire and a fire support 'Mech is that light fire 'Mechs are weighted towards mobility whereas fire support units only care about long-range firepower; scout hunters/harassers need at least 6 MP with long and short range weaponry; heavy cav are 5 MP with ability to move fast and exploit a breakthrough; line 'Mechs/troopers have mixed weaponry ranges with 4 MP; juggernauts are the classic assaults that care more about weapons and armor than speed and slowly tromp up the middle of the battlefield, forcing a response, etcetera.

Viewed by that paradigm, the vast majority of Clan 'line' units are Heavy Cavalry; their assaults move like heavies while still hitting like assaults, their heavies move like mediums, their mediums move like lights, and their lights... are lightning. It's more than just 'Oh, they're faster'; they have an entirely different style of warfare where they dictate range as though they're one category lighter while still hitting and taking hits like their own category.

And then there's the Hellbringer.

I'd be gracious and say it hits like an assault while taking hits like a light, but that's too gracious - the Timber Wolf and Mad Dog have only slightly less podspace tonnage and hit just as hard, without sacrificing their armor to the extent it does.

Its sole, unique claim is that it has a ton of podspace, but there aren't a lot of weapons out there which take up more crits than tonnage so invariably most of that crit space ends up wasted. *grabs TRO 3050 and takes a look* Its primary config uses 26 spaces of 43. That's 17 wasted spaces! And that's the most crowded configuration.

You're saying 7 of those crits, a whole seven, couldn't've gone towards Endo-Steel for 3 more tons of armor?

It's a flawed design. It's BAAAD. I'm no heartless minmaxer (my favorites of the original 16 are the Fire Moth, the Gargoyle, the Summoner, and the Stormcrow, only one of which is a minmax ride), but I don't let sentimentality cloud my judgment.

I do wonder about podding in 8 IJJ's, a TC, and as many ERLLs as the heatsinks will handle to try and snipe from extreme range, but the whole 'Mech is a mess and a few outlier home-brewed configs aren't enough to save it IMHO.

[Diablo48]

Kinda like how many Marik assaults are best used as overweight heavies? An interesting idea. You wind up with similar roles, with the Loki either providing direct(and sometimes indirect) fire support for faster mediums, or using its sheer firepower to act as a bully and use heavy firepower to quickly subdue the mediums it can catch.

Basically, if you can use an Albatross, you can use a Loki. 8)

Not really.  The Albatross has the mobility of an IS heavy which is what lets it be used like a heavy instead of an assault.  The Hellbringer has the mobility of a heavy so it has to be stacked up against other 5/8/X designs which leaves the unfavorable comparison to the Timber Wolf.  While you could use it to bully slower IS mediums, the Timber Wolf is still the better 'Mech for the job because it has the same mobility and firepower but carries a lot more armor.

[wantec]

In RS 3145 it will do something only it can do out of the first 16.

Is the answer mount a Sniper Arty piece (not the cannon, but the full-size bugger)

I do wonder about podding in 8 IJJ's, a TC, and as many ERLLs as the heatsinks will handle to try and snipe from extreme range, but the whole 'Mech is a mess and a few outlier home-brewed configs aren't enough to save it IMHO.

The problem with ERLLs, TC, and IJJ is that you end up with only 2 ERLL and the heatsinks to use them with 4.5 tons left (adding a 3rd ERLL pushes the TC up another ton). On the other hand you can go with ERMLs or ERSLs (you get get somewhere around 17 ERSLs, a TC, and heatsinks to use most of them)

[Scotty]

I don't believe I've said anywhere in this entire article that the Hellbringer is better than a Timber Wolf, or Mad Dog, or Summoner, or Stormcrow.  It's not, flat out.

Once again, that's also not the point.

Then again, if the sticking point in this discussion is that "Hellbringer bad" and I can't make clear how to use a bad 'Mech in a very fun and painful way, I don't think it's going to get much further.

[Wildonion]

Not really.  The Albatross has the mobility of an IS heavy which is what lets it be used like a heavy instead of an assault.  The Hellbringer has the mobility of a heavy so it has to be stacked up against other 5/8/X designs which leaves the unfavorable comparison to the Timber Wolf.  While you could use it to bully slower IS mediums, the Timber Wolf is still the better 'Mech for the job because it has the same mobility and firepower but carries a lot more armor.

Then how about we just retire everything that isn't the Timber Wolf? Because that seems to be the only response when talking about Clan heavy BattleMechs during the early Invasion era. Use the Timber Wolf or use the Stormcrow.

[Jim1701]

The Prime would be pretty sweet IMO if they would loose some of the secondary crap and add 3 more heat sinks.  Given the lack of armor for its size and its decent speed for its size I'd prefer long range sparring as the optimal solution.  Of the canon configs I'd probably go with the E. 

[wantec]

The Prime would be pretty sweet IMO if they would loose some of the secondary crap and add 3 more heat sinks.  Given the lack of armor for its size and its decent speed for its size I'd prefer long range sparring as the optimal solution.  Of the canon configs I'd probably go with the E.

You mean you want a Karhu D?

[Jim1701]

You mean you want a Karhu D?

Other than having both ERPPC's in the same arm, yeah that pretty much works for me.  Of course the Karhu appears to have the armor for a decent fight so long range weaponry is more of a choice that a survival trait. 

[Diablo48]

Then how about we just retire everything that isn't the Timber Wolf? Because that seems to be the only response when talking about Clan heavy BattleMechs during the early Invasion era. Use the Timber Wolf or use the Stormcrow.

You know, there is a good reason I have heard the 3050 heavy omnis described as the Timber Wolf and those other designs that are like the Timber Wolf but worse.  Logically, there is really no reason to use any of the others when you have the gold standard on hand, although the Summoner is not too far behind.