Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn  (Read 28543 times)

Scotty

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'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« on: 17 January 2014, 00:04:12 »

First unveiled on the eve of Operation: GREAT FLOOD in Capellan space, the subject of this week's article is the Gùn.  Rolled out in 3134, the Gùn is intended as a militia and garrison 'Mech, despite being a fully capable OmniMech in its own right.  Massing 20 tons, the Gùn is the lightest that a conventional BattleMech can aspire to, and shares that mass with the ubiquitous Stinger, Wasp, and Locust trio, and also with the very similar Flea.

Built on Capella in the Capellan Confederation (where else?) and on Lockton in the Magistry of Canopus, the Gùn can be found in the CCAF, the MAF, and even here and there in the Andurian Defense Force.  For the most part, the Gùn is a decided oddity in general, nevermind for an OmniMech.  Designed as an infantry support 'Mech, the primary purpose of a Gùn is to advance with the infantry, and provide a cheap yet capable transport option for the CCAF's mechanized battle armor units.

Constructed on an Ceresplex Light Omni Endo-Steel chassis to save mass at the expense of internal space, the Gùn gets off to a promising start.  Where that start careens into something unexpected occurs at the next stage of development.  A Rawlings 100 standard fusion engine propels the Gùn up to a running speed of just a hair over 86 kilometers per hour.  This earns it the dubious distinction of being the slowest 'Mech in its tonnage increment, sharing that “honor” with the Hornet.  Indeed, of all known BattleMechs to date, the next slowest 'Mech to be found is the Mandrill, fully ten tons heavier.  And, of course, the Urbanmech, also in the 30 ton group.  August company, to be sure.  While there are no jumpjets hard-wired into the chassis, it is technically possible for the Gùn to mount a full complement, though no current configuration does so.

While the Endo-Steel chassis is intended to save mass at the cost of space and expense, the standard engine takes the opposite approach and saves expense at the cost of mass.  This has the side-effect of making the Gùn durable enough on its own to weather a few seconds of dedicated heavy firepower, so the decision is not necessarily a poor one.  In fact, considering the overall cost of the base chassis of the 'Mech, using a standard engine is a shrewd cost cutting measure that maintains a good level of effectiveness for the price.  Another cost cutting measure in the form of a small cockpit makes the Gùn a challenge to pilot, but frees another ton of mass to use in the armament and armor of the 'Mech.

Speaking of armor, the Gùn is protected by three and a half tons of Ceres Standard armor plating.  This is enough to cover just more than 80% of the chassis maximum, but definitely leaves the pilot wanting more.  As it stands, a simple medium pulse laser will strip all of the armor off any location that is not the Center Torso or Head, though it will only go internal from the rear.  Both the aforementioned locations, however, will be breached by a direct large laser hit.  A single PPC or AC/10 slug will take the Head clean off, which can't do a whole lot to make pilots happy.  On a frame like this, sacrifices must be made.

Those sacrifices, however, yield fruit in the form of the Gùn's payload.  Not less than ten tons of podspace, fully half the 'Mechs mass, are available for weapons and equipment.  Supported by the base ten double heatsinks of the 'Mech, this is more than enough to accomplish the Gùn's primary role.  In fact, some might argue that this is more podspace than the Gùn needs, or that any sane pilot would want to ride into a fight given so little armor.  Three common configurations make very different uses of the space available, though all follow the same general tenets.

First, the 'Mech takes a leaf out of the venerable Urbanmech's playbook and typically mounts a single large caliber weapon, though the primary configuration also boasts a pair of supporting weapons.  Additionally, all weapons on all configurations are mounted on the arms, making for superb battle armor transport capabilities.  Finally, despite the ammunition on the primary, Gùn configurations are armed solely with energy weapons.  This serves the two fold purpose of allowing Gùn units to stay in the field as battle armor transports long after a ballistic- or missile-armed transport would have to retire to rearm.  Secondly, it also keeps ammunition costs down, reinforcing the image of a cost-effective, easily acquired and replaced garrison 'Mech.

The primary configuration of the Gùn sets the tone for the rest of the common configs.  Taking up the majority of the podspace is a single Plasma Rifle, fed by two tons of ammunition, in the Right Arm.  Opposite that in the left sit two ER Medium Lasers.  The primary weapon on this configuration has the fairly short maximum range of 450 meters, but within range the Plasma Rifle is a good candidate for the most versatile weapon available for any tonnage.  Capable of solid punches at 'Mechs while also playing merry hell with an opponent's heat scale, the rifle is even better at engaging aerospace fighters due to the unforgiving nature of an ASF's heat scale.  Against non-heat tracking units such as infantry, battle armor, and conventional vehicles, the rifle deals significant extra damage.  In the open, a single volley from the energy weapon is enough to completely incinerate entire platoons by itself.  The two lasers add good punch for the 'Mech's size out to 360 meters.  While short ranged, the Gùn's primary configuration is unmatched in offensive versatility.

Configuration A represents the logical extreme of a 20 ton 'Mech with 10 tons of space.  There is only one weapon on this configuration, in the form of a Heavy PPC in the Right Arm.  On a frame moving that slowly, with that little armor, the HPPC is begging to be destroyed in line combat.  That's why the Gùn does not participate in line combat when at all possible.  Against civilian vehicles, or the lower tech, less capable vehicles that an insurgency or enemy militia units are likely to muster, the devastating punch of the HPPC ensures that nothing wants to get within 540 meters of the Gùn A except infantry.  Even then, since it's suicide to send a Gùn into battle alone and unsupported, there's more than likely another that can ruin the infantry's day nearby.

The final configuration, labeled simply “B”, may best be described as the Raven's younger sibling.  While this particular sibling may be frailer of limb and feebler of punch, it is if anything stronger in mind.  Mounting both Angel ECM and a Bloodhound Active Probe (in the Right Torso and Left Torso, respectively), as well as a TAG module in the Left Arm, the Gùn B is able to provide all of your electronics warfare needs, short of relaying the HPG message for reinforcements itself.  The sole offensive weapon is an ER Large Laser in the Right Arm.

A group of notable pilots has done enough with the Gùn to warrant mention.  A unit full of screw-ups, an up and coming officer in the McCarron's Armored Cavalry's second regiment volunteered to lead the errant lance of Gùns.  Sang-wei Garrett O’Donnell immediately whipped the unit into fighting shape, and the lance is now one of the most requested in the entire regiment for infantry support special missions.

Using a Gùn is fairly straightforward.  You don't have the armor to tangle with... well, anything that isn't infantry for any length of time.  Neither do you have the speed to disengage from anything that has any speed at all.  More so than any other 'Mech in recent memory, use of cover and blocking line of sight is necessary to use a Gùn.  Hit and fade attacks are a good idea in cities or heavy woods, and using the primary's plasma rifle to set fires may actually be more useful to the group than using that limited ammunition to engage the enemy.  Lack of maneuverability is a serious issue.  As the entry mentions, the B is rarely deployed out of range of friendly artillery, and that's a good rule to use.  The more you can keep enemies ducked out of sight, the more freedom you have to maneuver.

The Prime functions in a very different manner from the A and B, since it offers the only dedicated anti-infantry punch of the configurations.  If you encounter an infantry unit that you absolutely need dead, send a Prime after it.  If you encounter an armored target, bring forward the As.  Enemy ECM, or a C3 Network, or other advanced electronics, bring forward a B, same for if the enemy is dug into fixed positions.  In such a way, no Gùn is really able to do everything, but all Gùn configurations together are able to accomplish just about everything, once friendly artillery is included.

Fighting a Gùn is even easier.  Shoot at it.  Doesn't even really matter with what, just be aware that the A is going to hurt what shoots at it, the Prime is going to roast infantry alive, and the B is going to shut down everything you love and hold dear in the world.  It's like playing rock-paper-scissors.  Kill the A with infantry, kill the Prime with 'Mechs or other long range weapons, and kill the B with something that doesn't use electronics to do it, and that can preferably avoid the return fire from the Arrow IV battery just over the next ridge.

The Gùn is entirely too new for Camospecs, but you can find the Master Unit List entry for it right here.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #1 on: 17 January 2014, 00:30:11 »
Haven't used one of these yet, but I really want to.
Anyone have any success stories about this 'Mech?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #2 on: 17 January 2014, 03:00:16 »
Haven't used one of these yet, but I really want to.
Anyone have any success stories about this 'Mech?

Just did then in a MM game. Overall... it's fragile and i expected it to absolutely murder my infantry but sustained, massed fire from infantry will take it down.
That is provided you're willing to stand your ground - i did and it ended up costing me a fair bit of infantry. But over all, i was pleased.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #3 on: 17 January 2014, 12:23:30 »
It's an interesting mech, but only having 4 crits available in any section limits the weapons it can carry.  No Re-engineered large lasers or TSEMP (though I guess the OS TSEMP could work).  Losing any limb to a PPC hit really hurts it as well.  It's not a joke that Amazons can take hits better than the Gùn. 

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #4 on: 17 January 2014, 12:29:45 »
Well, you can always hang one on the other.
I'd prefer a config with ams in the arms and then hang some reflec toad equivalents on it.
The Gùn sure is a decent package for what it's trying to accomplish.
I mean, it's infantry support with a hint of electronic warfare.
If you're fighting in a defense garrison on a borderworld, with a company each of POs, Battle Armour, and the odd Regiment of Militia Infantry, the Gùn B is probably a command mech and supported by the only onworld artillery lance.
A single lance of these on populated worlds with a squad of attached police is probably all the Riot control you'll ever need.
Just don't send it at anything that is likely to fight back. Mechs are a particularly bad idea, and most mediums can pace it.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #5 on: 17 January 2014, 13:39:48 »
As mentioned in the article, this is the kind of 'Mech that doesn't fare well in symmetrical combat, or where it's matched up against the biggest threat on the other side of the field.  It's very much rock-paper-scissors on armored legs.

For the Prime, it looks a lot like this:

If -> Enemy 'Mechs
   Then -> And
      Deploy Battle Armor
      Hide

If -> Enemy Infantry
   Then -> And
      Deploy Battle Armor
      Burn PBI

If -> No Targets
   Then -> And
      Pick up Battle Armor
      Look for targets

The only differences between the A and B and the Prime are that the A swaps around the Infantry and 'Mechs, and the B adds the following:

If -> Enemy Electronics
   Then -> Disable Electronics

More than any 'Mech in recent memory, the Gùn relies on cover and not even being in the line of fire, rather than taking the fight to enemy 'Mechs.  It's a battle taxi that can go just about anywhere (remember, jump jets are pod-mountable), take a few hits to actually cripple (standard engine means that, technically, you can lose four locations on this bad boy without being outright- or mission-killed), and depending on the config can find some use as an opportunist when the Big Boys are scuffling.

The Gùn should never be matched up against its equal, nor without significant infantry or big brother 'Mech support.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #6 on: 17 January 2014, 14:02:46 »
Given the BV/PV of the Gùn I'd imagine a Gùnswarm, perhaps with Amazon BA would be a viable tactic.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #7 on: 17 January 2014, 14:15:42 »
It's definitely possible.  A Gùn and Amazon squad generally comes to right around 1,000 BV for the pair, if you average it out (the Gùn averages 700 per config, almost exactly, and the Amazon exactly 300 per squad, also average).  Considering that you can generally get a decent Heavy or low-end Assault for 2k, I'm not sure a combined arms lance composed of Gùns and battle armor is necessarily going to take it down.  Then again, Gùns and battle armor probably shouldn't be trying, either.  There's even a bit in the TRO deployments section for the Gùn that mentions a single old school Centurion taking down an entire lance of them by his lonesome.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #8 on: 17 January 2014, 14:49:24 »
This thing screams to me that it should be deployed in a reinforced lance.  Two Primes as generalists, an A for punching down modest armoured threats and a B for support.  Then take two cheap Arrow IV tanks or a pair of LRM carriers with semi guided ammo on board.

Adding in four squads of BA will give you a garrison force that should be able to defeat most pirate raiding forces and provide a useful first response against anything bigger while you marshal you main forces together.

Obviously it could do with a bit more armour, but 20 tons is 20 tons and what it does with it's payload is pretty impressive.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #9 on: 17 January 2014, 16:00:11 »
A version that uses two standard old large lasers would be pretty spiffy... or maybe a large, a medium, and a pair of flamers.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #10 on: 17 January 2014, 16:07:49 »
I was thinking ER PPC and some anti-infantry stuff (either SPL or Flamers).  Alternately, some IDF capability.  I'd actually probably go with a Mech Mortar for sheer flavor, but an LRM-15 would do the job nicely, with or without Art. IV

Interestingly, a config that mounted a single Mech Mortar 4 and three tons of ammo to do cruel and unusual things to your opponents comes in at the cheapest of any config I've cared to try out, less than 1.5 million c-bills and barely more than 260 BV.  An LRM-15 with two tons of ammo and Art. IV is still less than 500 BV.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #11 on: 17 January 2014, 16:30:18 »

Its a cute little Mech that I just have to respect, but I do wish that we get an extreme range harassment config.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #12 on: 17 January 2014, 16:57:55 »
Interestingly, a config that mounted a single Mech Mortar 4 and three tons of ammo to do cruel and unusual things to your opponents comes in at the cheapest of any config I've cared to try out, less than 1.5 million c-bills and barely more than 260 BV.  An LRM-15 with two tons of ammo and Art. IV is still less than 500 BV.
My main issue with the default configs is that they're rather pricy, and with the Gùn being essentially an Omni-bug that's a problem.  Cheap and effective configs are good.

Its a cute little Mech that I just have to respect, but I do wish that we get an extreme range harassment config.
Yeah, something like a ERPPC and a Tcomp, backed up with a flamer or some small lasers, would be nice.  ERPPC+Tcomp+2xERSL is 700 BV on the dot, and with an ER Flamer instead of the ERSLs it's a rather ominous 666 BV. 

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #13 on: 17 January 2014, 17:17:00 »
Honestly it's not too pricey regardless.  The B is the most expensive, on account of the rather advanced electronics littering its chassis.  The Prime and the A are both pretty close to 2 million C-bills (the A is actually cheaper).

What you get for that cost is versatility.  The Gun is, alternately, a battle armor carrier, an infantry murderer, a headhunter (in numbers, and with bigger targets to draw fire), an EW platform, and perhaps most importantly in the era, it's a 'Mech that in most instances is going to be supporting and engaging infantry.  It's morale, wrapped up in a little ribbon that has a few extra doodads to justify the cost.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #14 on: 17 January 2014, 17:25:36 »
Honestly it's not too pricey regardless.  The B is the most expensive, on account of the rather advanced electronics littering its chassis.  The Prime and the A are both pretty close to 2 million C-bills (the A is actually cheaper).
I was referring to the rather high BV, though I can see how my phrasing would suggest that I was talking about C-bill prices.  C-bill wise, the Gun is dirt cheap for an Omni.  But from the BV side, I don't think ~700 BV for a unit that's crippled by a PPC hit and fights at middling ranges is generally a good investment. 

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #15 on: 17 January 2014, 17:47:45 »
700 BV makes the Gun contemporaries with the Urbanmech R80 (2/3/3, SNPPC), Garm (5/8/5, LB-5X), Clint 1-2R (6/9, AC/10), and Raven -3L (6/9, EW platform, SRM-6/NARC).

I don't know about you, but while all of those may be rather larger than our little friend, they all do just about the same quality job.  Hell, the Garm's main gun will fit on a Gun with room for ammo, making the only difference in capability the FF (same tonnage)  and extra LRM-10.  That's for being nearly double the size.

I'd take a Gun against any flavor of Urbanmech any day of the week.

The Clint would be a fun fight, considering its armor is barely any better and its heat scale is easily fiddled with.

The Raven does the same EW work as the B but with less power.  If the Gun tried, it could actually imitate 80% of the -3L, missing only the NARC launcher.  Considering the Raven also out-BVs the B by 10%, I'd call that a win.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #16 on: 17 January 2014, 18:02:25 »
I love this little mech. From the awesome artwork to the design itself. For 20 tons, I can't think of a better deal. I like to think of the Gùn as the new Capellan version of the Wasp and the Stinger. Legions of these things being cranked out that die in droves but eventually take out their objective etc.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #17 on: 17 January 2014, 21:46:31 »
Gùn is sexy picture wise, but you have to be pretty crafty when your using it.  Thank you for writing this new buggy up for us,  Scotty.  The 'Mech is certainly not your Succession War era BattleMech, i won't have thought i'd see a dedicated OmniMech desiged for Infantry support and be basicly unable to handle anything heavier than infantry formations and possibly light Battle Armor. 3145 is a certainly a dangerous era if your driving latest designs.

Kuritas have arguably toughest machines with that Harden Armor with over engined 'Mechs/tanks that can over come the speed problems.  Gùn has to over come its lack of armor and try test player urges to go "Lyran" on someone.  Player has to remind themselves their not driving a machine able to survive combat even in Lance against even vintage Succession War tech survivors.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #18 on: 17 January 2014, 22:10:12 »
Another thing to consider: Strategically, the Shen Long can almost keep up with this baby.  The ground MP of 4 on arguably one of the best Battle Armor suits available to the Inner Sphere is a fantastic companion to the Gun.

My vision for a CapCon garrison/battle armor company is a lance of Guns, in Prime, Prime, A, B formation carrying two squads each of Amazons (two MRR, two SPPC), and supported on the ground by a platoon of Shen Longs in David, David, Machine Gun, Flamer formation.

That sports some positively war crime levels of pain against infantry of both kinds (by my count, six different units mount AI weapons, for a total of two Plasma Rifles, two MRRs, four machine guns, and two flamers), and the Gun A, Amazons, and David Shen Longs can still inflict some reasonably good damage on even armored units.  The Gun B has all of your EW funtimes covered, and the Shen Long (Flamer) adds another roaming bubble of "screw you" to enemy units.

Interestingly, I'd use the entire company for the same kind of tactic, too: hit and fade.  Guns aren't durable enough to stand up against anything, so pop in and out of cover, preferably while opponents backs are turned, and even more preferably when there's a better target to shoot at that isn't the Gun.  Amazons, ironically, are the workhorses of the entire company, and are the most "line" combatant in the entire unit.  Use them as bubbles of "THERE THEY ARE!" to keep your enemies focused and draw fire when your Guns enter the fray.  Use your Shen Longs as head hunters.  Nobody at all, least of all enemy battle armor, want to round the corner and suddenly find an array of Davids pointed at them. 

In short, use your Amazons to anchor the position, and then try your damndest at all times to make sure that your opponent either doesn't know or can't hit your other units.  It's a very Capellan kind of strategy.  It'd work fantastically in a city, or in heavy woods.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #19 on: 17 January 2014, 23:49:50 »
Honestly it's not too pricey regardless.  The B is the most expensive, on account of the rather advanced electronics littering its chassis.  The Prime and the A are both pretty close to 2 million C-bills (the A is actually cheaper).

What you get for that cost is versatility.  The Gun is, alternately, a battle armor carrier, an infantry murderer, a headhunter (in numbers, and with bigger targets to draw fire), an EW platform, and perhaps most importantly in the era, it's a 'Mech that in most instances is going to be supporting and engaging infantry.  It's morale, wrapped up in a little ribbon that has a few extra doodads to justify the cost.
I think some of this is important to keep in mind.

Any body who's looked at/played with the new Ultra-Heavy Proto's (And yes, the fact that they're called ULTRA-Heavy is important) a little will be able to tell you that they make light 'Mechs obsolete. Based upon that idea I recently looked into turning some of the Ultra-light 'Mechs into Proto, that makes even more sense, right? Well in doing so I found something out: It doesn't work, the high speed that the Flea-14 has means that it doesn't work as a Proto, but once you start slowing things do it gets bad for the 'Mechs, which means that the Gun SHOULD turn into a Proto without any problems, and gain some benefits in the process.

Well apart from losing the ability to be an Omni and the ability to lug around BA

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #20 on: 18 January 2014, 01:11:13 »
It's a omni-Locust; while I'm not sure weather that's a good thing or a bad thing, the fact it's a Omni makes it a nice ride for BA and the B is great 'get in and get out' scout mech for your fire support and artillery. While it would be crazy to take on a heavy combat vehicle or, god forbid, another mech in something as fragile as the Gun,  the A has me chuckling because I know someone out there will try.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #21 on: 18 January 2014, 01:28:12 »
I've always had a special kind of love for twenty ton mechs, and the Gun managed to carry on that tradition. I feel determined to acquire a swarm of them.

Of course I also have images of sending them to the Forest Moon of Endor for some reason...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #22 on: 18 January 2014, 10:45:57 »
For those wanting a better armour version, why not Modular Armor? (that is allowed on 'Omni's? As are shields?)

Ok, it make the Gun even slower, but the mental image of a 20 ton 'Mech waddling around under the weight of up to 200% extra armour is delightfully  :D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #23 on: 18 January 2014, 11:16:14 »
700 BV makes the Gun contemporaries with the Urbanmech R80 (2/3/3, SNPPC), Garm (5/8/5, LB-5X), Clint 1-2R (6/9, AC/10), and Raven -3L (6/9, EW platform, SRM-6/NARC).

I don't know about you, but while all of those may be rather larger than our little friend, they all do just about the same quality job.  Hell, the Garm's main gun will fit on a Gun with room for ammo, making the only difference in capability the FF (same tonnage)  and extra LRM-10.  That's for being nearly double the size.

not enough free criticals on a Gun to fit a LB 5-X  :-[

It's an interesting mech, but only having 4 crits available in any section limits the weapons it can carry. 

Side Torsos have 4 free criticals each.  Both arms also have 4 free and the Head has 2.  All the rest are taken.

Still, for long range plinking it can fit a LB 2-X or an Ultra AC 2,  and for very long range plinking a HV AC 2 or a Extended LRM 5). 

How much armour you have (or don't have) doesn't matter if they can't shoot back.  >:D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #24 on: 18 January 2014, 11:20:54 »
Named after a Chinese fighting stick, this thing should be able to least be able to smack someone as sniper if their crafty enough to avoid incoming fire from potentially crippling opponent.

However, humoristly, I can see Battle Armor infantrymen catching ride with thing and saying "Have Gùn - Will travel"
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #25 on: 18 January 2014, 11:49:05 »
I'd love to see a series of Capellan OmniMechs based on the other three major Chinese weapons.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #26 on: 18 January 2014, 11:51:26 »
I think some of this is important to keep in mind.

Any body who's looked at/played with the new Ultra-Heavy Proto's (And yes, the fact that they're called ULTRA-Heavy is important) a little will be able to tell you that they make light 'Mechs obsolete. Based upon that idea I recently looked into turning some of the Ultra-light 'Mechs into Proto, that makes even more sense, right? Well in doing so I found something out: It doesn't work, the high speed that the Flea-14 has means that it doesn't work as a Proto, but once you start slowing things do it gets bad for the 'Mechs, which means that the Gun SHOULD turn into a Proto without any problems, and gain some benefits in the process.

Well apart from losing the ability to be an Omni and the ability to lug around BA

Considering that as far as I'm aware, Ultra-Heavy protos are kinda really dead anywhere they could possibly have existed in the Inner Sphere, and that most Inner Sphere nations can't even make regular protos yet, and further that being an Omni and lugging around BA is literally the prime selling point for a Gun, I'd say that a Gun-style Proto is pretty impossible.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #27 on: 18 January 2014, 12:02:14 »
My vision for a CapCon garrison/battle armor company is a lance of Guns, in Prime, Prime, A, B formation carrying two squads each of Amazons (two MRR, two SPPC), and supported on the ground by a platoon of Shen Longs in David, David, Machine Gun, Flamer formation.

Somewhat amusingly, I just ran the numbers for this, and the entire company ends up less than 5400 BV for 4/5 pilots on all 12 units.  That's budget.
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #28 on: 18 January 2014, 17:05:59 »
For those wanting a better armour version, why not Modular Armor? (that is allowed on 'Omni's? As are shields?)

Ok, it make the Gun even slower, but the mental image of a 20 ton 'Mech waddling around under the weight of up to 200% extra armour is delightfully  :D

They do have modular armor.  It's called battle armor.  ;D

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #29 on: 18 January 2014, 20:22:19 »
not enough free criticals on a Gun to fit a LB 5-X  :-[
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wantec

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #30 on: 18 January 2014, 21:06:14 »
not enough free criticals on a Gun to fit a LB 5-X  :-[
There is room for a Clan one :) Or a RAC-2, UAC/2, or a Clan UAC/5. Of course if you're going Clan-tech, the ERLL, LPL, and ERPPC are obvious choices.

For extreme range, there's the Extended LRM 10 and LRM 5.

And for taking advantage of the range brackets the Snubbie is a good choice.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #31 on: 18 January 2014, 21:16:06 »
...

Of course I also have images of sending them to the Forest Moon of Endor for some reason...

"Chicken walker"?  Check
Ewok blasting capability?  Check
Extra difficulty in traversing difficult terrain?  Check
Armor protection inadequate versus primitive timber traps?  Check

Lol, it's a perfect fit. 

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #32 on: 19 January 2014, 01:19:31 »
I think some of this is important to keep in mind.

Any body who's looked at/played with the new Ultra-Heavy Proto's (And yes, the fact that they're called ULTRA-Heavy is important) a little will be able to tell you that they make light 'Mechs obsolete. Based upon that idea I recently looked into turning some of the Ultra-light 'Mechs into Proto, that makes even more sense, right? Well in doing so I found something out: It doesn't work, the high speed that the Flea-14 has means that it doesn't work as a Proto, but once you start slowing things do it gets bad for the 'Mechs, which means that the Gun SHOULD turn into a Proto without any problems, and gain some benefits in the process.

Well apart from losing the ability to be an Omni and the ability to lug around BA

Well, that and the whole 'this isn't made by a Clan, it's made by people who don't make or use Protomechs' issue. There's that.
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SCC

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #33 on: 19 January 2014, 01:39:00 »
Mixed tech is all the rage these days, salavage has always been the name of the game, and the CapCon are allied (If not in a state of personal union) with the MoC, the IS faction most likely to develop Proto's

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #34 on: 19 January 2014, 02:36:31 »
Mixed tech is all the rage these days, salavage has always been the name of the game, and the CapCon are allied (If not in a state of personal union) with the MoC, the IS faction most likely to develop Proto's

Well, aside from the multiple generations of genetic tinkering to create the smaller body type.  And aside from the implants that cause irreversible and inevitable mental degradation after only a few years.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #35 on: 19 January 2014, 04:30:35 »
I like the concept of the Gun, but have not had a chance to try it out yet. Unfortunately,
the only way I can see a Gun being used effectively is in my own "Kill Team" style units:
Treat infantry and their transport as a single unit. This means your Lance of Guns will also
be carrying a squad of Battle Armor each. Add in two Vehicles to the Lance.  Deploy in trios,
so you have 2 Guns(and their infantry), and a vehicle attacking one point, and the same
going somewhere else. Or you have 3 Guns and their infantry in one place, 2 vehicles, a Gun
and infantry hitting another. (This idea was inspired by a misreading a while back that the
FedCom was fielding 3 'mech strike teams, and was originally created as a response to that
idea WELL before I found out ComStar/WoB used units in increments of 6)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #36 on: 19 January 2014, 06:06:57 »
It's a shame the Sea Foxes aren't supplying enough of that beautiful Kingston ERPPC to the Cappies.  Imagine Guns running around with Clan ERPPCs and some LRMs...

I'm also surprised there isn't a Sunder "Samual"-style walking war-crime for the Gun.  A batch of SRMs, small pulse lasers, flamers, maybe some LMGs just for variety.  I mean, it IS an infantry-support unit, and it's true that a hostile infantry unit can ruin its day.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #37 on: 19 January 2014, 06:36:42 »

For a Clan version I think that it would need a Plasma Cannon, an cERLL and an Active Probe.
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Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #38 on: 19 January 2014, 10:31:08 »
I am really liking the look of the Gùn, although I really wish it was 25 tons instead of 20.  The cost does not go up much, but you can nearly double the armor so it can take a hit (although you still want to keep it out of trouble) and you get another ton free to remedy the crippling lack of Flamers, probably by fixing an ER model in the head.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #39 on: 19 January 2014, 11:59:27 »
The 'crippling lack of flamers' is purely by config, not by chassis.  I'd rather have the plasma rifle than any possible configuration of flamers, anyway, considering the whole "five times the effective range" thing.

As an Omni, there's nothing stopping you from loading up a Gun with five modular armors and an array of flamers.
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Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #40 on: 19 January 2014, 12:13:51 »
The 'crippling lack of flamers' is purely by config, not by chassis.  I'd rather have the plasma rifle than any possible configuration of flamers, anyway, considering the whole "five times the effective range" thing.

As an Omni, there's nothing stopping you from loading up a Gun with five modular armors and an array of flamers.

The Plasma Rifle has ammo, the Flamer/ER Flamer does not.  That is a huge difference in anything bigger than a pickup game where ammo costs start building up and you cannot just light an entire forest on fire to try to direct the enemy where you want them without running out of ammo.  Besides, that was a comment on what to do with the extra free ton you get for upgrading to a 25 ton frame to improve the armor, and I think a flexible anti-infantry weapon is a very good choice on an infantry support 'Mech like this.


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Alexander Knight

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #41 on: 19 January 2014, 12:22:38 »
That's a valid point, but in the 3140s, "Anti-Infantry" is increasingly starting to mean "anti-battle armor".

Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #42 on: 19 January 2014, 13:02:53 »
That's a valid point, but in the 3140s, "Anti-Infantry" is increasingly starting to mean "anti-battle armor".

Fair enough, although if you are really worried about BA then you should be looking into AE weapons which are conveniently available via artillery, especially for the B.  Going for a new dedicated anti-BA configuration, the cannons would be my first choice if they were not too big for the Gùn, so mortars would be the next logical choice and seem like a good support weapon for this frame all around.  Barring that, you are basically back to shooting them with whatever is on hand because BA mostly take damage like other armored units unlike conventional infantry.

Of course, half the point of having a Flamer is starting fires on a whim and that will still be an important part of infantry support because no infantry of any kind can do that without going through consumables.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #43 on: 19 January 2014, 13:11:54 »
I know I mentioned using Mech Mortars upthread.  You can fit either one MM-4, or two Clan MM-4s, both with three tons of ammunition.

Of course, by the time you start mounting missile munitions with multiple tons of ammunition, I'd just as soon ignore the Flamer in favor of smoke rounds.
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Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #44 on: 19 January 2014, 13:48:03 »
I know I mentioned using Mech Mortars upthread.  You can fit either one MM-4, or two Clan MM-4s, both with three tons of ammunition.

Yeah, that was what made me think of it.

Quote
Of course, by the time you start mounting missile munitions with multiple tons of ammunition, I'd just as soon ignore the Flamer in favor of smoke rounds.

What part of ammo independence is confusing you?  The whole point of the Flamer is that you can show up an hour before the enemy does and have kilometers of roaring inferno ready to greet them when they make it to the battlefield.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #45 on: 19 January 2014, 14:00:54 »
The part of ammo independence that's confusing me is the part where you think the Gun is going to be at any point away from its supplies.  It's a garrison infantry support 'Mech, and if it's more than a few dozen kilometers from a supply zone or a friendly base, you're doing it wrong.
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Maingunnery

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #46 on: 19 January 2014, 14:04:42 »

Well if you have time, then you don't need flamers to start fires, other energy weapons can do the job as well (they just take more time).
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #47 on: 19 January 2014, 14:08:18 »
The part of ammo independence that's confusing me is the part where you think the Gun is going to be at any point away from its supplies.  It's a garrison infantry support 'Mech, and if it's more than a few dozen kilometers from a supply zone or a friendly base, you're doing it wrong.

I feel like it's bad form to quote myself, but whatever.  This does give me the idea for the "Gun Magazine" that sports the B's Large Laser (or a PPC, or even a pair of LPPCs, or even one) to fit in a 3-7 ton cargo bay.  Three tons would give you enough for at least a few days in the field with an infantry or battle armor platoon.  It'd even be a pretty fantastic training 'Mech, with the moderate speed, "dialed down" PPC, and ability to stay in the field for weeks with those cargo bays.
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Maingunnery

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #48 on: 19 January 2014, 14:18:21 »
I feel like it's bad form to quote myself, but whatever.  This does give me the idea for the "Gun Magazine" that sports the B's Large Laser (or a PPC, or even a pair of LPPCs, or even one) to fit in a 3-7 ton cargo bay.  Three tons would give you enough for at least a few days in the field with an infantry or battle armor platoon.  It'd even be a pretty fantastic training 'Mech, with the moderate speed, "dialed down" PPC, and ability to stay in the field for weeks with those cargo bays.
So a supply config..... I would go for an ERPPC combined with a 2.5 ton cargo bay, which is then also protected with CASE so that the Mechwarrior can carry ammo inside without worry.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #49 on: 19 January 2014, 14:46:26 »
The part of ammo independence that's confusing me is the part where you think the Gun is going to be at any point away from its supplies.  It's a garrison infantry support 'Mech, and if it's more than a few dozen kilometers from a supply zone or a friendly base, you're doing it wrong.

Right, because you always have time to make dozens of trips to the supply dump which also never gets overrun, raided, or runs out of supplies.

I feel like it's bad form to quote myself, but whatever.  This does give me the idea for the "Gun Magazine" that sports the B's Large Laser (or a PPC, or even a pair of LPPCs, or even one) to fit in a 3-7 ton cargo bay.  Three tons would give you enough for at least a few days in the field with an infantry or battle armor platoon.  It'd even be a pretty fantastic training 'Mech, with the moderate speed, "dialed down" PPC, and ability to stay in the field for weeks with those cargo bays.

You could do something like that in a pinch, but you would really be better off with dedicated supply vehicles.  Besides, you can probably find civilian equipment to commandeer and let the 'Mech use its pod space for guns so I cannot see this kind of conversion being necessary very often.

So a supply config..... I would go for an ERPPC combined with a 2.5 ton cargo bay, which is then also protected with CASE so that the Mechwarrior can carry ammo inside without worry.

Actually, that makes me wonder.  Does ammunition in a cargo bay explode?  I feel like it should, but I am not certain how the rules for that work.


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SCC

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #50 on: 19 January 2014, 19:40:42 »
One other problem with the array of flamers that people are arguing for is that it doesn't work to well, to get maximum use out of all those flamers you're likely going to need to target either multiple infantry platoons at once, or multiple 'Mechs, neither of which are a good idea.

There's also the range factor, the Wasp WSP-1W mounted a bunch of SL's way back in the day, but it had the mobility to act as a backstabber (6/9/6) and in general ranges were shorter back then, 3/6/9 was the norm for some reason

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #51 on: 19 January 2014, 20:28:58 »
design-wise, i hate everything about this 'mech. every edge is beveled off for some reason, a big vulnerable canopy that's walled off on nearly all sides so you can't see anything out of it, a waist joint that would fail if anything struck anywhere near it because someone wanted to make sure you saw where the waist was......i could go on for a long time.

it does, however provide you with a passable battle armor taxi. i'm just going to not look at it, i'm used to capellan designs being eyesores.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #52 on: 19 January 2014, 20:34:17 »
design-wise, i hate everything about this 'mech. every edge is beveled off for some reason, a big vulnerable canopy that's walled off on nearly all sides so you can't see anything out of it, a waist joint that would fail if anything struck anywhere near it because someone wanted to make sure you saw where the waist was......i could go on for a long time.

it does, however provide you with a passable battle armor taxi. i'm just going to not look at it, i'm used to capellan designs being eyesores.

Personally I think it's an awesome looking design. Functional, yet somehow menacing. (Then again Alex I. is my favorite among the current artists.)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #53 on: 19 January 2014, 23:23:48 »
I'm also surprised there isn't a Sunder "Samual"-style walking war-crime for the Gun.  A batch of SRMs, small pulse lasers, flamers, maybe some LMGs just for variety.  I mean, it IS an infantry-support unit, and it's true that a hostile infantry unit can ruin its day.

The problem (for the Gun) is if it is using SPLs, MGs or Flamers on Infantry/Battle Armor, then it is probably close enough for the PBI/BA to shoot back.  Even SRM's might not have the range to stay far enough away to avoid return fire.

There is a difference between 'infantry support unit' and 'anti-infantry unit' and the Gun seems designed - in all three configs - to stay at a distance (out of range of return fire or behind friendly units?) and shoot.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #54 on: 19 January 2014, 23:58:23 »
Somehow I doubt that all of the infantry that Guns get sent against are going to be armed.  Just saying.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #55 on: 20 January 2014, 09:47:25 »
Somehow I doubt that all of the infantry that Guns get sent against are going to be armed.  Just saying.

But remember: enough knives and baseball bats can damage a 'mech, and if they get in the same hex, it
cannot shoot them..
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #56 on: 20 January 2014, 11:14:43 »
Good thing the Gun can outrun any meatsack infantry, then.  And yes I know about the knives-and-clubs; a group of 28 Capellan nobles using carbon-reinforced fingernails can do precisely one point of 'Mech damage (28*.03, round up) which can be dangerous considering the TAC possibility.  The mental image of a hundred or so psychotic Capellan nobles charging into battle with their pinkie fingers raised may be insane but it is possible, so it might be best to have something to reduce their number slightly first.  Even if it is short-ranged.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #57 on: 20 January 2014, 11:52:31 »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #58 on: 20 January 2014, 12:42:21 »
One other problem with the array of flamers that people are arguing for is that it doesn't work to well, to get maximum use out of all those flamers you're likely going to need to target either multiple infantry platoons at once, or multiple 'Mechs, neither of which are a good idea.

There's also the range factor, the Wasp WSP-1W mounted a bunch of SL's way back in the day, but it had the mobility to act as a backstabber (6/9/6) and in general ranges were shorter back then, 3/6/9 was the norm for some reason

Where did this come from?  I was suggesting one Flamer or ER Flamer to give it a way to help out against hostile infantry and to create firebreaks to check the advance of hostile conventional forces in a pinch, not trying to wade into a pile of infantry in a thin skinned design like this.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #59 on: 20 January 2014, 13:24:40 »
Love the art.  However, having fought against it a few times, it lacks.  It punches outside its weight, but it it is too slow with too little armor, and there are better options for a anti-squishy infantry units.   But I think the Mech Mortar version bandied about here would have some definite possibilities for evilness.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2014, 14:51:51 by Banzai »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #60 on: 20 January 2014, 13:52:59 »
I feel like it's bad form to quote myself, but whatever.  This does give me the idea for the "Gun Magazine" that sports the B's Large Laser (or a PPC, or even a pair of LPPCs, or even one) to fit in a 3-7 ton cargo bay.  Three tons would give you enough for at least a few days in the field with an infantry or battle armor platoon.  It'd even be a pretty fantastic training 'Mech, with the moderate speed, "dialed down" PPC, and ability to stay in the field for weeks with those cargo bays.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #61 on: 20 January 2014, 19:08:53 »
Where did this come from?  I was suggesting one Flamer or ER Flamer to give it a way to help out against hostile infantry and to create firebreaks to check the advance of hostile conventional forces in a pinch, not trying to wade into a pile of infantry in a thin skinned design like this.
I suggested a Sunder-Samual style loadout, something for clearing streets of anything living and/or recently deceased.
A three ton field kitchen?

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Now there's an idea.  Also internal cargo bays for long-term deployment, communications gear for patrols, the OmniMech can do a lot more than combat.  Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Guns were cheap enough to turn into a high-performance industrialmech.  Instead of needing a this-or-that onhand, just hook up whatever heavy tool's required to your omnimech and waddle it into position.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #62 on: 22 January 2014, 01:20:01 »
Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Guns were cheap enough to turn into a high-performance industrialmech.  Instead of needing a this-or-that onhand, just hook up whatever heavy tool's required to your omnimech and waddle it into position.

You know..that is an interesting thought. Are there Mobile Construction Battalions in BattleTech? We never
hear mention of them..but..well, that could be an interesting idea: putting Guns into those sorts of units:
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #63 on: 22 January 2014, 07:02:35 »
Personally I think it's an awesome looking design. Functional, yet somehow menacing. (Then again Alex I. is my favorite among the current artists.)
It seems to follow the design mantra of the Po: Cheap(ish) and effective in the role. The art reminds me of a T-34. They're not wasting money on making it look pretty, they're spending it on function.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #64 on: 22 January 2014, 20:41:46 »
But remember: enough knives and baseball bats can damage a 'mech, and if they get in the same hex, it
cannot shoot them..

At which point the battle armor the Gun is carrying drop off and go to town.

The mech doesn't have to use podspace on anti-infantry guns, it's specifically a cheap BA taxi and support platform for the same.  So rather than use podspace for anti-infantry weapons they pick up a BA squad each and call it good.  Not to mention the plasma rifle in the prime configuration is murder on PBIs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #65 on: 22 January 2014, 23:33:37 »
It's a shame the Gun has so few criticals.

I would of loved to have seen one with 8 Improved Jump Jets   :)). 

Alas, it only has room for 4 so for a jumping Gun we'll just have to use standard Jump Jets  :(

Still, a 5/8/5 20 Ton Omni with 7.5 tons of free space has it's uses.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #66 on: 03 April 2018, 21:37:09 »
It's not a medium, but... :)

I tried using the Gun once.

Let's just say that slow 20 tonners aren't long for this world.    xp
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #67 on: 03 April 2018, 21:44:14 »
I tried using the Gun once.

Let's just say that slow 20 tonners aren't long for this world.    xp
The Gun is not intended to be used in operations where there is heavy ordnance flying around, i think.
Need to put down those peasant rioters who are in process of capturing a Vedette tank? Use Gun, either to bring BA or use its plasma rifle to shoo the peasants away. Need to redeploy some BA near battlefield but not in exact front line? Use Gun. Need to carry BA or support infantry while under fire? Don't use Gun.

So, while it is an infantry support 'Mech, it isn't like the Hoplite really. If you need infantry support while there is that heavy ordnance flying around, use a Snake or a Calliope.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #68 on: 03 April 2018, 22:41:45 »
I tried using the Gun once.

Let's just say that slow 20 tonners aren't long for this world.    xp

When I faced them, they were in numbers, and accompanied by stuff I really couldn't afford to ignore for the time I would have needed to wipe them out. Those little buggers hurt.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #69 on: 03 April 2018, 23:52:28 »
Guns are force multipliers, like the never-say-die trashcan Urbanmech. Hoplite serves similar function (though I would rather splurge on a Griffin or go with a P-hawk)

For straight up infantry support, most bugs can do the job just fine. P-hawk if you want a Medium for most occasions without breaking the bank.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #70 on: 04 April 2018, 05:11:13 »
As the designer, it greatly pleases me people remember my creation but let's get that into the right thread.

I tried using the Gun once.

Let's just say that slow 20 tonners aren't long for this world.    xp

I hadn't thought of it this way but the Gùn really needs another 5 tons of baseline tonnage to work properly.  The Raptor doesn't take all the all steps the Gùn does to stack podspace but winds up with another 1.5 tons plus two more base MP even without them.  Apply a half-ton of that to armor, especially if you're still willing to suffer the XL gyro to squeeze out an extra ton, and you get an extra ton of podspace, more speed, and significantly better armor.

Still, as an "asymmetric combatant" and force multiplier, I'm pretty satisfied with what I managed to do on the 20 tons I had thanks to the design restrictions.  Just the shock factor of realizing I could actually squeeze an HPPC on there was immensely entertaining and it provides a different sort of look to the lighter Capellan garrison units.  They've got a high-speed/good podspace Omni with the Men Shen.

EDIT: There was also some commentary on the lack of flamer configs.  That's deliberate.  You're lightly armored and slow.  Getting within 2-3 hexes of infantry is not a good idea, especially because the weapons carried by modern infantry have gotten longer-ranged.  You want to torch a foot platoon, roast them with the Prime's plasma rifle or let the BA you're carrying deal with them.  Or at least that's my opinion on the matter, and as the designer, that was the one that guided the canon configs.
« Last Edit: 04 April 2018, 06:39:37 by Moonsword »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #71 on: 04 April 2018, 07:56:44 »
The Gun feels... Clannish. Spheroids don't usually focus so much on raw podspace and ability to cram firepower into things. I mean, the Gun has 50% of its mass dedicated to pod space. There are few 'Mechs with as much, the Dire Wolf, the Tomahawk (I/II), the Hel (Loki II), but i can't think of others.
Not that this thing would live in a Clan world for long. Short life as it is already.

Given the Gun's effective and varied configurations, all with clear purpose, the 'Mech can't be modified really though. Upping it to 25-tonner would work, to be sure, but... well, it doesn't seem to fit fluff-wise.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #72 on: 04 April 2018, 08:14:09 »
I won't call a mech that goes 5/8 slow, but i guess for lights in 3145 it certainly is.  Can masc be added help improve it? I don't have my books next to me, but it IS Omni.  Maybe it won't have have alot weapons but it could still transport Battle Armor.

I think its a flawed design, given there are faster Omni out there for the Capellans, given it's mission as a Infantry Fire Support platform but on the "cheap" i guess.  Heck a crappy Strider would likely help it's situation
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #73 on: 04 April 2018, 08:25:32 »
I won't call a mech that goes 5/8 slow, but i guess for lights in 3145 it certainly is.  Can masc be added help improve it? I don't have my books next to me, but it IS Omni.  Maybe it won't have have alot weapons but it could still transport Battle Armor. I won't call a mech that goes 5/8 slow, but i guess for lights in 3145 it certainly is.
MASC can't be used in Omnis unless baked into base chassis.
Supercharger can be used though... only the Gun uses a SFE and XL gyro, so there is no space for one as SCs must share location with engine slots.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #74 on: 04 April 2018, 15:19:30 »
I am a fan of the LOOKS of this design, I bought two of them when they came out.

Using them can be difficult, but I've had fun using them as "fast" support for my UrbanMech squadrons.  They can fill a quick hole, lend a little more firepower, and generally provide support.  But that's all they do it support. They just aren't good fighters.

They are decent ambushers, a couple Primes and a couple A's pop out, shank a target, and run away while it cools down and stands back up.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #75 on: 04 April 2018, 17:27:04 »
Mixed tech is all the rage these days, salavage has always been the name of the game, and the CapCon are allied (If not in a state of personal union) with the MoC, the IS faction most likely to develop Proto's

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #76 on: 04 April 2018, 17:36:41 »
Shhh...........What happens in the Magistracy of Canopus stays in the Magistracy of Canopus.  If you keep talking about that the Ebon Magistrate Black Catgirl Commando Unit will get you and it will not be Kawaii.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #77 on: 04 April 2018, 19:00:55 »
As the designer, it greatly pleases me people remember my creation but let's get that into the right thread.

I hadn't thought of it this way but the Gùn really needs another 5 tons of baseline tonnage to work properly.  The Raptor doesn't take all the all steps the Gùn does to stack podspace but winds up with another 1.5 tons plus two more base MP even without them.  Apply a half-ton of that to armor, especially if you're still willing to suffer the XL gyro to squeeze out an extra ton, and you get an extra ton of podspace, more speed, and significantly better armor.

Still, as an "asymmetric combatant" and force multiplier, I'm pretty satisfied with what I managed to do on the 20 tons I had thanks to the design restrictions.  Just the shock factor of realizing I could actually squeeze an HPPC on there was immensely entertaining and it provides a different sort of look to the lighter Capellan garrison units.  They've got a high-speed/good podspace Omni with the Men Shen.

EDIT: There was also some commentary on the lack of flamer configs.  That's deliberate.  You're lightly armored and slow.  Getting within 2-3 hexes of infantry is not a good idea, especially because the weapons carried by modern infantry have gotten longer-ranged.  You want to torch a foot platoon, roast them with the Prime's plasma rifle or let the BA you're carrying deal with them.  Or at least that's my opinion on the matter, and as the designer, that was the one that guided the canon configs.

The Gùn being 20 tons is exactly what it needs and I'm glad you picked that.  Going up to 25 and working for 6/9 or 7/11 makes the engine at least half again higher rating.  C-bills may not make any sense whatsoever, but the engine being more expensive the larger it is makes perfect sense.  The Gùn being as dirt-cheap as it is really doesn't want to be more expensive, even if it comes with some increase in capability.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #78 on: 05 April 2018, 08:30:30 »
The Gùn is really more of a BA support than an Infantry support.
It needs something sufficiently dangerous and sufficiently squishy around to have any chance of continued existence, and a 5/8 Omni has it's use as a BA-Taxi.
For supporting actual squishies it could very well be 25 tons, with the same engine.
And as much as I like the idea of installing a MASH or field kitchen in the podspace, the mech has a small cockpit that doesn't quite lend itself to prolonged campaigns.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #79 on: 05 April 2018, 13:02:01 »
....can you install an infantry bay as podspace?  Mobile hostile environment quarters for up to nearly a full company of infantry. :D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #80 on: 05 April 2018, 13:13:02 »
'Mechs are explicitly ruled as being unable to carry infantry.
I believe i've seen this idea pop up few times in OmniMech MOTWs, and errata'd construction rules forbid installing infantry things to 'Mechs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #81 on: 05 April 2018, 13:14:00 »
Unfortunately, you cannot. I ask every time an opportunity to design a unit for publication does comes up. Moreover, I don't think you're ever allowed to put infantry in any mech-borne cargo bay. I'm less than 100% on that one.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #82 on: 05 April 2018, 13:31:04 »
I'm pretty sure someone (you Weirdo?) asked that in another MOTW. And i'm pretty sure Welshman (?) said no, and then someone even made a Rules Question about it.

Besides, jostling PBIs in a tin can is too cruel. Even though players insist on the idea :P

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #83 on: 05 April 2018, 14:12:18 »
I didn't say "transport PBIs", I said "hostile environment quarters for PBIs".  Is it legal if the mech is shut down? :D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #84 on: 05 April 2018, 14:33:16 »
IIRC someone noted that while you're not allowed to carry infantry inside a mech, it's perfectly legal to haul a container with an infantry compartment... ^-^

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #85 on: 05 April 2018, 14:48:12 »
Hope those guys are strapped in and the mechjock is careful. I've seen way too many examples of poorly packed or handled minis cases to wish that on living things...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #86 on: 05 April 2018, 18:32:21 »
Hope those guys are strapped in and the mechjock is careful. I've seen way too many examples of poorly packed or handled minis cases to wish that on living things...

My current headcannon is an "Infantry Bay" on an Omni is the Omni deploying a bouncehouse at the end of the day's march. :D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #87 on: 09 April 2018, 06:37:26 »
I love the little thing, both the art and the stat's it's a perfect infantry support Mech, it provides a big-ish gun to keep the lighter vehicles away and allows it to help with taking out lighter defences that infantry could struggle with, makes enemy infantry go oh sh... they have mech support, let's go over there or maybe give up? it's slow so has to be always near the infantry it's supporting. in short it's the perfect infantry support mech, Moonsword you did a great job with this!

I would love to see an Augmented company with four Gùn's with two Amazon squads in one lance and two Amazon and two Shen Long BA squads with a Zahn and maybe a Pixiu in the other, you could play where's my Amazons! are they on the Gùn's or in the Zahn, are the Shen Long's in the Zhan or sitting near the Pixiu waiting for you to get close and try to stop the gauss plinking  :D

BV of 5502 +/-150 or so, is not bad for an augmented company with 4 mechs and a stealthed gauss tank with BA too
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #88 on: 29 April 2018, 04:45:43 »
My current headcannon is an "Infantry Bay" on an Omni is the Omni deploying a bouncehouse at the end of the day's march. :D
Are you telling that this doesn't describe a CCM?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #89 on: 01 May 2018, 07:28:03 »
I didn't say "transport PBIs", I said "hostile environment quarters for PBIs".  Is it legal if the mech is shut down? :D

You have to treat it like the tauntaun in Empire Strikes Back: Gut the 'mech completely. Not something a smart Capellan militia commander is going to do.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #90 on: 01 May 2018, 16:31:21 »
Technically, if you wanted your mech to haul infantry around, you could give the mech a lift hoist, stuff the infantry into a trailer (or, I suppose, an APC, but that kinda defeats the purpose) and have the mech carry the trailer with the lift hoist.  :P
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #91 on: 01 May 2018, 23:42:23 »
I just got the image of a frustrated Star Commander facepalming, while watching a FireMoth or Viper with a Lift Hoist carrying around an APC full of Ghost Bear Solohma troops and careening around corners in an Urban Cityscape.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #92 on: 02 May 2018, 00:10:15 »
IIRC that was actually the original intended use of the Firemoth.. those odd high held arms being meant to carry infantry in modules slung under them. it never worked out, but the fast mech was useful for other roles so they kept it.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #93 on: 07 June 2018, 06:40:03 »
While re-reading this article, I think I've finally got it figured out. Unlike most 'Mechs, which are MBT equivalents, the Gun is an IFV equivalent. It's got some decent firepower, but putting it up against a front-line combatant is a Bad Idea. (Not as bad as a cardboard warrior like a Patron PatrolMech, but still.)

So to my mind, when planning tactics, the Gun is a CV90 equivalent. Strolls in, drops off the battle armor, sticks around to provide anti-tank firepower, but when other 'Mechs start arriving it grabs it's battle armor and leaves.

And if this thing is used with Augmented Lances, like was suggested up-thread, four of them* could be supported by Behemoth II or Pixiu heavy tanks.

*Assuming that these are deployed to CCAF Home Guard and militia units in large numbers.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #94 on: 08 June 2018, 10:04:23 »
With this brought up again. I like idea of adding more configurations to the Mech as things have progressed for the Capellan Confederation has learned lessons.  It's Garrison OmniMech, done cheap, suppose to support the dirt eaters, not fighting toe-to-toe with frontline Mechs or even heavy weight Main Battle Tanks aka Combat Vehicles. 

I think it be good since she has moderate speed (5/8) using her with Extended LRM-10 with two tons ammo (i can't tell how many critics are left)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #95 on: 08 June 2018, 15:24:00 »
For all your custom Gun's

Wrangler's idea is first on the list

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61831.0
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #96 on: 25 June 2018, 23:38:14 »
Had one of these on the field recently.

It was mostly just used to transport some Battle Armor to the field & left the fighting to bigger mechs.

That said, it did an impressive job of watching our rear area.

The player used the Plasma+2ERML configuration & kept a speedy Locust-3M & Hermes-4S occupied so that we didn't get completely harassed from behind.

Which proved to be very useful as our mediums slammed into the enemy line & dropped off more BA into the enemy HQ base.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #97 on: 25 June 2018, 23:49:48 »
The player used the Plasma+2ERML configuration & kept a speedy Locust-3M & Hermes-4S occupied so that we didn't get completely harassed from behind.
The Prime and A have soft spots in my heart as my favorite two 20-ton designs in Battletech. 685 BV2 for a 19-hex Headcapper, or 775 for a decent-nay, good-infantry support platform? Yes please. Only thing that sucks about the Gun, to me, is that it's just a Cappie design.

First time I ever used one was in a 4-Lance battle (Two lances per side, one controller of each lance), and despite taking it for the express purpose of rounding out my BV, the A was responsible for scaring off the majority of enemy light spammers-even damaging the Spider 7M that came to take care of it well enough to get the Spider to bugger off. In a really stupid way, it was more effective than the Cougar C my compatriot insisted on taking-which died literally the first round it entered combat thanks to the HPPC of an enemy Warlord. That match also taught me that if you really must bring a headcapping light to the field, it's best to ensure it doesn't consume an entire third of your allotted BV.

Seriously, we could've used a second assault, not a damn light. Why would you ever choose a light over a freaking Atlas AS7-D. He even had the spare BV2.
« Last Edit: 25 June 2018, 23:53:40 by Caedis Animus »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #98 on: 26 June 2018, 22:15:14 »
Agreed on the Cappie thing.

The mech itself I would have preferred to have 2 tons less pod space & use more basic tech for the Cockpit & Gyro w/ a full 4 tons of Armor.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #99 on: 25 December 2021, 06:50:39 »
*casts the circle, lights the candles, and offers up the sacrifice* Arise, dead thread, arise!

Re-reading this, I kind of thought of a couple extra points:
First, the Gun pilot should absolutely never, ever tell the mechanized battle armor (s)he is carrying that they are ablative armor.
Second, did the MW:AoD Advanced AMS that screened nearby units get into print somewhere? The Gun practically screams for those.
Third, I really need to do a scenario for my players where they are fighting 100 Capellan Nobles with carbon reinforced fingernails, and Daos as "support" weapons
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #100 on: 25 December 2021, 10:51:46 »
*casts the circle, lights the candles, and offers up the sacrifice* Arise, dead thread, arise!

Re-reading this, I kind of thought of a couple extra points:
First, the Gun pilot should absolutely never, ever tell the mechanized battle armor (s)he is carrying that they are ablative armor.
Second, did the MW:AoD Advanced AMS that screened nearby units get into print somewhere? The Gun practically screams for those.
Third, I really need to do a scenario for my players where they are fighting 100 Capellan Nobles with carbon reinforced fingernails, and Daos as "support" weapons

The AMS is in IO, it’s the RISC: APDS, but while the capellans probably have the most Republic salvage outside of IlClan (now) they’d be hard pressed to have enough of those systems to utilize them
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #101 on: 25 December 2021, 13:28:37 »
It occurs to me that the Gun is what the SLDF's Jackrabbit was trying to be. Lightweight, cheap, infantry and armor support. They just lacked the weapons technology to actually make it effective at that mass.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #102 on: 27 December 2021, 08:03:14 »
It occurs to me that the Gun is what the SLDF's Jackrabbit was trying to be. Lightweight, cheap, infantry and armor support. They just lacked the weapons technology to actually make it effective at that mass.
Don't tell the Clan boys & girls in Scorpion Empire that.  The Star Python (aka Nexus aka was once called the Jackrabbit) may beg to differ with it's Clan tech.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #103 on: 27 December 2021, 13:57:27 »
The Nexus is trying to do a very different mission than infantry support, though. Which separates it out from it's jackrabbit predecessor.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #104 on: 27 December 2021, 18:25:49 »
It's also very worth mentioning that infantry and armor support is not being good at engaging infantry and armor, it's supposed to be augmenting your infantry and armor by doing things they're not capable of or have difficulty going.

In the Guns case that's usually EW, dedicated any-fortification (HPPC to outright destroy buildings, Plasma rifle to do enough damage to infantry through damage reduction) action, battle armor transport, and in very limited fashion engaging enemy mech forces.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #105 on: 27 December 2021, 19:36:28 »
It's also very worth mentioning that infantry and armor support is not being good at engaging infantry and armor, it's supposed to be augmenting your infantry and armor by doing things they're not capable of or have difficulty going.

This cannot be emphasized enough.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #106 on: 27 December 2021, 20:31:14 »
*casts the circle, lights the candles, and offers up the sacrifice* Arise, dead thread, arise!

Re-reading this, I kind of thought of a couple extra points:
First, the Gun pilot should absolutely never, ever tell the mechanized battle armor (s)he is carrying that they are ablative armor.

Any battle armor assigned to work with a Gun ought to know that already.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #107 on: 27 December 2021, 22:06:39 »
See that's the thing.  It's the other way around.  The Gun is supposed to be drawing the suit-killing firepower so that the suits don't get killed, then working with the infantry to draw the threat into over-extending and being picked apart.

In that sense, the Guns should be deploying their charges, and then seeking places where their guns do things that small arms are wholly insufficient in tackling.  If an enemy mech shows up, they should engage it and keep its attention while infantry and armor keep doing their thing.  Ideally you keep the mech guns trained on your Guns, which maneuver to drag the opposing mech over as many dug in infantry positions and armor ambushes as possible.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #108 on: 27 December 2021, 22:48:01 »
I'm pretty sure that a squad of Battle Armor is about the same durability as a Gun.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #109 on: 27 December 2021, 23:10:36 »
Not even close.  One of the most common suits that you'd likely see deployed with a Gun is the Fa Shih, which has 7 points of armor.  Every location on the Gun has at least 6, and it can lose several of those locations without being disabled.

This isn't to say the Gun is particularly durable; it certainly isn't.  But you don't shouldn't be deploying Guns in situations where you value them more than the units they're supporting.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #110 on: 28 December 2021, 01:51:14 »
That's the whole point of infantry support units. Their raison d'etre is to make the infantry force more effective, not the other way around. Using BA to make a Gun more durable is literally the exact opposite of what these things are built for.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #111 on: 28 December 2021, 07:26:15 »
It's too bad Thumper cannon, that would have been great weapon to be put on, but there only 10 tons of omnipod room fit stuff in. Weapons is 10 tons never mind the ammo.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #112 on: 28 December 2021, 09:52:06 »
It's too bad Thumper cannon, that would have been great weapon to be put on, but there only 10 tons of omnipod room fit stuff in. Weapons is 10 tons never mind the ammo.
Somebody mentioned a MM/4. An LRM battery would be pretty nice too.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #113 on: 28 December 2021, 10:57:33 »
Not even close.  One of the most common suits that you'd likely see deployed with a Gun is the Fa Shih . . .

I would think the tactical doctrine has the Fa Shih as the absolutely last BA the Omni is assigned to carry.  IMO this is to carry the CC's Trinity version to offset their lack of JJ & Mag Clamps the Fa Shih uses- though they make up for that lack in armor & weapons.  Captured Purfiers would also be ranked above Fa Shih on assignments IMO.  It is too bad the Cappies' heavy BA is a quad.  You have to wonder how many heavy suits they have salvaged (Taranis & Phalanx) or purchased like Ogre & the heavy GDL suits- since the CCAF would be well served by the Gun deploying any of them.  In fact, the Cappies were already buying some material from the Regulans (Tufana), a trade of Asterions or Theseus they still built for Ogres would make sense.

Either way, with the heavier weapons and armor of the Capellan's non-jumping/Mag clamp suits it would make sense if this was how they were deployed.  After a mech, the next closest for mobility would be a VTOL.  A plasma weapon is a great way to clear a place to drop the battle armor.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #114 on: 28 December 2021, 15:29:55 »
i agree, with the magclamps the Fa Shih don't really need an omni to deliver them, plus with their minelaying gear i'd expect they'd be used more with fast mech or vehicle units so they can be forward deployed to prepare minefields and help funnel enemy units into positions where following capcon units can pound them flat. especially since post-jihad the capcon has plenty of other BA options. the Trinity Ying Long, the Purifier, even the Amazon suits would all benefit from the Gun in different ways (and i wouldn't be surprised if the capcon didn't develop the configs with intent to work in concert with specific suit types)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: GN-20* Gùn
« Reply #115 on: 28 December 2021, 17:37:27 »
I love these minimalist, specialty-made designs. It's dirt cheap for the amount of resources involved (1.8MM C-Bills; comparable to the Intro Tech COM-1B) and does exactly its job and absolutely nothing more. That forces some really creative builds, which I like! What a great 'Mech. :)
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