Author Topic: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition  (Read 198478 times)

Scotty

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #150 on: 21 July 2018, 14:32:47 »
Well then, here's a stupid thought: how about IWM gets into the plastic business? No, I'm not expecting them to invest in million-dollar injection machines. But they could have them manufactured in China and brand them as IWM, or come up with another brand name. Then the customers get the pieces they want and nobody has to go rejiggering contracts.

Joke answer: It's in the name, Iron Wind Metals, duh. ::)
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #151 on: 21 July 2018, 14:35:35 »
Ral Partha did experiment with that blue resin. They were very brittle, but could be used in current molds if I understood correctly. Maybe that is worth pursuing?

ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #152 on: 21 July 2018, 14:54:35 »
Ral Partha did experiment with that blue resin. They were very brittle, but could be used in current molds if I understood correctly. Maybe that is worth pursuing?

No. Resin cannot compete with plastic or pewter in any but the most specialist roles. It is hard to work with, more expensive than you might think, and has a high rejection rate. If you get a bad cast with plastic or pewter you can recycle it - in fact, IWM throws its sprues and bad casts right back into the same pots they draw liquid metal from - but once resin sets it cannot be reused.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #153 on: 21 July 2018, 14:59:39 »
It also tears up the silicone moulds much faster than metal.

From memory, Reaper went to metal block injection moulds for their Bones minis, hence the need for volumes of cash to kickstart the process.

That said, the success of their Bones KS almost broke Reaper on a regular basis. It's the distribution, & space for the sheer volume of production involved - it tends to be outside the capacity of many organisations to cope with easily. A metaphor - ordering groceries for 1000 people is hard. Having it all delivered to your house, at once, and then getting it to the right person quickly? That's harder.

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ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #154 on: 21 July 2018, 15:01:07 »
That's a good point. CGL has had a history of trouble with distribution.
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Sellsword

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #155 on: 21 July 2018, 15:14:00 »
Because it's been around for 35 years

And this to me is the exact reason why we need a second edition or at least a soft reboot with consistent artwork. Because the game has been around for a long time doesn’t mean it’s too late to make a change.  Sometimes I think simple inertia is holding the game back from expanding its customer base.

I think FASA did it right in this regard. Almost all TROs up to 3060 had one artist doing all the mechs, one doing the color pictures, another doing the aerospace fighters or just the Omnimechs etc. It led to a visual consistency within the book even if the actual units looked much different from each other.  I’d like to see CGL go back to a set up like this.  Each Mech/unit having a different artist just makes a TRO look like it is a book put together piecemeal.

ChaoticTabris

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #156 on: 21 July 2018, 15:44:48 »
Joke answer: It's in the name, Iron Wind Metals, duh. ::)
Plastic is kinda unlikely because even if they get outsource the injection process the molds are still pretty expensive. They could of course use resin, most companies do nowdays, it would allow for more detail but i'm not sure if it would make the end product any cheaper.

ActionButler

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #157 on: 21 July 2018, 15:55:07 »
From the persepctive that, for whatever reason, nobody in the Inner Sphere ever seemed to show any inclination towards developing an anti-battlemech weapon (other than bigger battlemechs) I think I would like to see them tuned up to be largely unkillable monsters.  I mean, we’ve already bought into the idea that battlemechs are an effective combat platform, we might as well go all in. 
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #158 on: 21 July 2018, 16:31:16 »
That said, the success of their Bones KS almost broke Reaper on a regular basis. It's the distribution, & space for the sheer volume of production involved - it tends to be outside the capacity of many organisations to cope with easily. A metaphor - ordering groceries for 1000 people is hard. Having it all delivered to your house, at once, and then getting it to the right person quickly? That's harder.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #159 on: 21 July 2018, 16:36:18 »
From the persepctive that, for whatever reason, nobody in the Inner Sphere ever seemed to show any inclination towards developing an anti-battlemech weapon (other than bigger battlemechs) I think I would like to see them tuned up to be largely unkillable monsters.  I mean, we’ve already bought into the idea that battlemechs are an effective combat platform, we might as well go all in.

Warships seemed to work pretty well...
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ActionButler

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #160 on: 21 July 2018, 16:39:30 »
Warships seemed to work pretty well...

And look where that got us.
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Kitsune413

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #161 on: 21 July 2018, 16:42:42 »
And look where that got us.

The Turtle Bay 3052 Fire and Lights Celebration hosted by Clan Smoke Jaguar?
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #162 on: 21 July 2018, 16:51:11 »
And this to me is the exact reason why we need a second edition or at least a soft reboot with consistent artwork. Because the game has been around for a long time doesn’t mean it’s too late to make a change.  Sometimes I think simple inertia is holding the game back from expanding its customer base.

I think FASA did it right in this regard. Almost all TROs up to 3060 had one artist doing all the mechs, one doing the color pictures, another doing the aerospace fighters or just the Omnimechs etc. It led to a visual consistency within the book even if the actual units looked much different from each other.  I’d like to see CGL go back to a set up like this.  Each Mech/unit having a different artist just makes a TRO look like it is a book put together piecemeal.

There was a soft reboot 16 years ago. It was called Mechwarrior: Dark Age. The tabletop board game and RPG never left its FASA roots behind, and the new, upcoming products are anchored in the same setting as the products from the 1980s. There's potential with the new fiction to create another soft reboot, but only time will tell if that's the intent or if it even works.

The Turtle Bay 3052 Fire and Lights Celebration hosted by Clan Smoke Jaguar?

I thought the Galedon Laser and Lightning Rain Exhibition performed by Clan Snow Raven had much more passion and dedication to the medium.
« Last Edit: 21 July 2018, 17:32:59 by JadedFalcon »

ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #163 on: 21 July 2018, 17:20:51 »
Plastic is kinda unlikely because even if they get outsource the injection process the molds are still pretty expensive. They could of course use resin, most companies do nowdays, it would allow for more detail but i'm not sure if it would make the end product any cheaper.

The molds aren't as expensive as they used to be. There's no way to get all 3000+ units and variants into plastic, but I think there is enough demand to justify maybe twenty more 'Mechs.
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pheonixstorm

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #164 on: 21 July 2018, 17:48:05 »
A small plastic injection machine can be found as cheap as $10,000. Now what kind of conditions its in... that much I don't know. I do know those machines can take a beating though.

ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #165 on: 21 July 2018, 18:12:12 »
A small plastic injection machine can be found as cheap as $10,000. Now what kind of conditions its in... that much I don't know. I do know those machines can take a beating though.

Better to spend the money on paying specialists to do it. From what I've gathered, $10k is a very good start to paying for molds and a production run.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #166 on: 21 July 2018, 19:25:22 »
From the persepctive that, for whatever reason, nobody in the Inner Sphere ever seemed to show any inclination towards developing an anti-battlemech weapon (other than bigger battlemechs) I think I would like to see them tuned up to be largely unkillable monsters.  I mean, we’ve already bought into the idea that battlemechs are an effective combat platform, we might as well go all in.

It's purely my perspective, but I cannot imagine anything worse to happen to Battletech without it coming from an outside source. The ability to surprise folks(and be surprised by others) using stuff that others don't think of using very often is one of the things that has kept this game fresh for me, even after playing it for twenty years. If you render non-mech units irrelevant, or so weak that they have to be fielded in impractically large numbers to make any impact, a lot of that draw goes away.

Granted, that is purely my taste in Battletech.

Now if you want true mech-killing weapons, you could always make the Elias tourney legal, or at least give it a BV. >:D
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ActionButler

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #167 on: 21 July 2018, 19:57:37 »
It's purely my perspective, but I cannot imagine anything worse to happen to Battletech without it coming from an outside source. The ability to surprise folks(and be surprised by others) using stuff that others don't think of using very often is one of the things that has kept this game fresh for me, even after playing it for twenty years. If you render non-mech units irrelevant, or so weak that they have to be fielded in impractically large numbers to make any impact, a lot of that draw goes away.

Granted, that is purely my taste in Battletech.

Now if you want true mech-killing weapons, you could always make the Elias tourney legal, or at least give it a BV. >:D

Granted, on all counts, which is why I would also make mechs much rarer and less effective against infantry in the same way that, if you’ll forgive the borrowed comparison, the Death Star could only deal with X-Wings that were already up in its grill. 

Handwave it however you want.  People are too small for them to target. Mech weapons are mostly designed to kill other mechs.  Whatever.  Let mechs kill mechs and tanks, tanks kill tanks and infantry, and infantry kill infantry and tanks. 

Also, I wouldn’t make non-mechs irrelevant.  Infantry and battle armor should still be anle to crawl all over a mech and put explosive charges in all sorts of exciting and delicate places. 
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #168 on: 21 July 2018, 20:08:55 »
It's purely my perspective, but I cannot imagine anything worse to happen to Battletech without it coming from an outside source. The ability to surprise folks(and be surprised by others) using stuff that others don't think of using very often is one of the things that has kept this game fresh for me, even after playing it for twenty years. If you render non-mech units irrelevant, or so weak that they have to be fielded in impractically large numbers to make any impact, a lot of that draw goes away.

Granted, that is purely my taste in Battletech.

Now if you want true mech-killing weapons, you could always make the Elias tourney legal, or at least give it a BV. >:D

I'll bite: Weirdo, what is the Elias?

Also, as a long time player, I found no problems with the change in artwork over time (RIP Doug Chaffee) and felt that the different artists from TRO3067 onwards gave us a better idea of how diverse the models were. While, yes, I'm fairly certain there was no continuity between designs from the same company, it was still more visually appealing.

Now, if they want to replace Duane Loose's artwork, that's fine. I'll still buy that re-re-release. 
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Bedwyr

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #169 on: 21 July 2018, 20:21:54 »
I still think Matt Plog did a brilliant job rehabilitating some weird designs post 3050 rereleases.
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ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #170 on: 21 July 2018, 20:24:19 »
I still think Matt Plog did a brilliant job rehabilitating some weird designs post 3050 rereleases.

I agree. His early work was a bit hit-or-miss to me, but his latest work - and especially the fanstuff he's done - has been fantastic. I'd love to see him and Shim put their heads together on redesigning the 3025-3055 machines.
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klarg1

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #171 on: 21 July 2018, 21:04:19 »
Well then, here's a stupid thought: how about IWM gets into the plastic business? No, I'm not expecting them to invest in million-dollar injection machines. But they could have them manufactured in China and brand them as IWM, or come up with another brand name. Then the customers get the pieces they want and nobody has to go rejiggering contracts.

Presumably they could. Other US and EU based miniatures manufacturers have done so.

On the other hand, they have shown no real interest in doing so up until now. What's more, I doubt Battletech is the main bread winner over at IWM. They don't share sales data, but the few numbers they do let slip (such as the ridiculously low sales rate it took to get a mold kicked into the archives 5-6 years ago), it paints a picture of a huge number of very slow selling products, which is not the kind of thing that works best in plastic.

<conjecture>
Based on that, and what I know about the hobby minis manufacturing industry, I would speculate that IWM probably keeps the lights on primarily as a contract casting shop, and maintains the metal BT line as a mildly profitable side business. If we assume that I'm even close on that, the economics of plastic will simply never make sense for the product line as a whole.
</conjecture>

Now, having said that, could IWM pick out the 20 most popular items and issue them as plastics which still make money? Maybe. I definitely don't know enough to determine that. I would say that Battletech is probably a small enough market, that they would have to pick carefully, and go to great pains not to accidentally split the plastic market with CGL in a way that leaves them both deep in the red.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #172 on: 21 July 2018, 21:19:51 »
I still think Matt Plog did a brilliant job rehabilitating some weird designs post 3050 rereleases.

As long as we're (still) talking art, I would say that while I absolutely adore a lot of the latest artwork and updates we've seen from CGL, I dislike close to 80% of Plog's work. His sense of mechanical aesthetic and mine just don't gel at all, and I'm OK with that. If people enjoy his take on imaginary robots - and many do - then I am pleased CGL's art decisions are working to please a part of its fan base.

This is kind of why I sigh in resignation each time the topic comes up. Lots of bits and virtriol are spilled over what is "obviously", or "objectively" best, and it devolves into the same argument every time.

To me some of the late generation FanPro work looks much worse than anything in TRO3025. (Verfolger, I'm looking at you.), and I am comfortable saying that even as I gush with praise over Anthony Scroggin's re-imaginined NuSeen Classics for ever and ever.
« Last Edit: 21 July 2018, 21:22:07 by klarg1 »

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #173 on: 21 July 2018, 22:11:40 »
I'll bite: Weirdo, what is the Elias?

Infantry-deployed nuke, just barely powerful enough that if you swarm a mech and successfully plant it, when you trigger it you'll auto-kill that mech(assuming normal armor), but even the secondary effects only cover a couple hexes' radius. It's in CampOps, I think.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #174 on: 21 July 2018, 22:20:50 »
I gotta try and find that. It's too hilarious and absurd of a *rats in my britches* scenario not to use in a semi-drunk one-off game.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #175 on: 21 July 2018, 22:41:59 »
Just another reason for me to carry Infernos, thank you for that.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #176 on: 21 July 2018, 23:03:44 »
Infantry-deployed nuke, just barely powerful enough that if you swarm a mech and successfully plant it, when you trigger it you'll auto-kill that mech(assuming normal armor), but even the secondary effects only cover a couple hexes' radius. It's in CampOps, I think.

Interstellar operations. And the secondary radius is actually 18 hexes. Its a great way to louse up an entire lance, even if you only kill one of them in the process.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #177 on: 21 July 2018, 23:03:55 »
As long as we're (still) talking art, I would say that while I absolutely adore a lot of the latest artwork and updates we've seen from CGL, I dislike close to 80% of Plog's work. His sense of mechanical aesthetic and mine just don't gel at all, and I'm OK with that. If people enjoy his take on imaginary robots - and many do - then I am pleased CGL's art decisions are working to please a part of its fan base.

This is kind of why I sigh in resignation each time the topic comes up. Lots of bits and virtriol are spilled over what is "obviously", or "objectively" best, and it devolves into the same argument every time.

To me some of the late generation FanPro work looks much worse than anything in TRO3025. (Verfolger, I'm looking at you.), and I am comfortable saying that even as I gush with praise over Anthony Scroggin's re-imaginined NuSeen Classics for ever and ever.

Yeah the Nuseens are gorgeous. That's the art I'd like to see more of.

I think whenever you get into the argument of the objectivity of art that at the end of the day there is going to be a style that the majority respond too and that's basically what you're aiming for.

I'm with you on Plog's work. His stuff is just a bit too busy for me... and I think he hates drawing legs. "Look at this sick torso I drew.. Oh man. now I have to connect it to the ground somehow..." He's obviously a big battletech fan though. So I really appreciate him.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #178 on: 21 July 2018, 23:17:04 »
Infantry-deployed nuke, just barely powerful enough that if you swarm a mech and successfully plant it, when you trigger it you'll auto-kill that mech(assuming normal armor), but even the secondary effects only cover a couple hexes' radius. It's in CampOps, I think.

Interstellar operations. And the secondary radius is actually 18 hexes. Its a great way to louse up an entire lance, even if you only kill one of them in the process.

Just another reason for me to carry Infernos, thank you for that.

And this is why we can't keep nice 'mechs in our lance. Thanks Weirdo. *Waits really impatiently for an IWM Scarecrow*
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #179 on: 22 July 2018, 00:52:52 »
See? Non-mech fun, that justifies another mech! When infantry get brought out, everybody wins! :thumbsup:
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