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BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: JadeHellbringer on 12 April 2017, 11:53:59

Title: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 April 2017, 11:53:59
(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/60/Gyrfalcon2.jpg?timestamp=20131103225916)
“Toss THIS in buffalo sau- aw man, I made fun of myself again, didn’t I?”

Following the horrors of the Jihad, there were very few militaries that could look at their losses and say ‘no big deal’. Some militaries were smashed literally beyond repair, and even the most sunny outlooks involved years of reconstruction. This was doubly-trying for the Clans that remained in the Inner Sphere- not only were they left with heavy losses from the fighting against the Blakists, but varied degrees of internal conflict against the Society had wounded them as well- and all were cut off from the Homeworlds, a problem ranging from a ‘meh’ from the Cats and Bears to an ‘oh god everything is doom’ from the Wolves. The Falcons were an intermediate case- heavy losses and an inordinately large Society problem left them reeling, but the loss of production from worlds like Ironhold was made somewhat less crippling by the Clan’s holdings in their occupation zone such as Sudeten.

Where it would have been enough for the Falcons to simply ramp up production of their longtime favorites like the Kit Fox and Summoner to cover for their losses, we’ve long seen a flair for the dramatic from Kerensky’s children. This includes the ‘totem Mech’ concept, which has appeared with mixed success in a number of forms across the Clans such as the Fire Scorpion, Mandrill, and Kodiak. In retrospect, it is actually surprising that it took the always-proud Falcons this long to come to the conclusion that they needed their own version… and in typical Falcon fashion, if it’s worth doing, it’s worth overdoing. Not one but FOUR bird-of-prey themed designs began filling out the Falcon touman in the years following the end of the Jihad and Reaving, and while the other three deserve articles of their own we’ll be focusing today on what the author believes is not only the best of the lot, but possibly the best Battlemech to debut in the Dark Age era: the Gyrfalcon.

For those not familiar with standard Jade Falcon tactics, the Clan adores mobile warfare. Not quite in the Ice Hellion sense, but they do love quick-moving designs, preferably with jump jets as well. The classic Summoner ia a great example of Falcon thinking, and with that in mind the Clan stayed close to what they know when it came to rebuilding. The Gyrfalcon then feels familiar to Falcon players in that regard. But there’s another Mech that the Gyrfalcon feels familiar to, and it makes the Gyrfalcon the ultimate extension of an old friend- the RFL-3N Rifleman. We’ll be referencing that design a few times here.

The show starts on the Gyrfalcon with the same mobility as the venerable Summoners it serves to support- 5/8, thanks to a 275-rated XL engine. This gives the 55-ton Mech fairly average speed for its size, but a MASC system allows for brief boosts up to ten MP a turn. That’s nothing to sneeze at, particularly with the Mech’s other abilities in mind. Jump jets backed by a partial wing give the Mech a surprisingly good leap, allowing it to quickly reach good firing positions or escape danger. It’s not going to put the Spider out of business for quick movement, but for its size and role the Gyrfalcon can get around. A battery of laser heat sinks (debuted years earlier on the Night Gyr) reduce the threat from ammo explosions a slight bit more than usual.

Many things can be said about the Clans being rigid and incapable of learning new tricks. Let that never be said about their engineers. In addition to the partial wing, the Falcons introduce another new innovation to the Gyrfalcon- reflective armor. Nine tons of this plating covers the Gyrfalcon in what we’ll admit here isn’t a particularly thick hide. Only the center torso could survive an AC-20 hit, though all non-rear locations can hold out a Gauss hit at least (once). With the Mech intended to serve in a long-range sniper role, the amount of return fire is going to likely be limited, however- and the reflective armor means that some of the more potent inbound shots such as ER large lasers and PPCs are far less effective than usual. The vulnerability to artillery is nullified by the mobility of the design, while one can’t feel too worried about physical combat problems in a Mech intended to engage from across the battlefield.

And let’s talk about that, because as with any Mech the weaponry defines its role. Here we have a dedicated mobile sniper, and the weapon loadout reflects this better than almost any other design since the Hollander. Each arm has a familiar sight to Rifleman fans, an over/under large laser and autocannon. Of course, the Falcons aren’t using the old Star League standbys. The large lasers are both extended range models (in absurdly large mountings), while the cannons are LB-2X guns (each with its own 45-round drum magazine). A light active probe in the head adds a little extra sensor advantage to round it out. Now, that doesn’t sound particularly powerful- and really it isn’t, at least in terms of raw damage output. But there’s a few things to consider here. First, the LBX guns are excellent at causing aircraft problems, making it much more difficult to deal with a marauding Falcon force via air attack. We also find that while the Mech will build a bit of heat from firing its weapons while on the move, it isn’t an unmanageable mess (thank you, partial wing!), so leaving out a laser every few turns will keep you running just fine. And of course, perhaps most importantly, all four weapons range out beyond the max ranges of most return fire- the lasers can reach 25 hexes, while the cannons can reach a staggering 30. A Gyrfalcon can strip a targets armor clean before it can take even a wild return shot.

(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/0e/Gyrfalcon.jpg?timestamp=20080109203033)
Perfección de pollo verde!

To elaborate just a bit further there, we have a Mech that can put out four shots at range many Mechs can’t even reply at. But it’s worse than that for the enemy. What return fire you do have is going to be made even more difficult by the Gyr’s movement curve. What shots do hit are mitigated by the reflective armor soaking up much of the damage. And because it moves as quick as it does, it can continually move backwards as fast as larger Mechs can approach it, allowing the beast to keep its range advantage for a long time. It’s everything a Rifleman pilot could have dreamed of- and used intelligently, is nothing short of a winged nightmare to bring down. The best bet are fast strike units that can chase it down and bring it to justice- even then, it will likely take work to finally end the threat.

A somewhat lower-tech version, the Gyrfalcon 2 drops the reflective armor for ferro-fibrous plate. That armor provides the same protection, but frees up a little weight- which, along with the removal of the probe (a system not likely to be useful on a Mech engaging from 20-odd hexes away from most targets), allowed for the addition of two more heat sinks, allowing for cool alpha strikes while running. That’s not a small thing- and makes the Gyrfalcon 2, in the author’s opinion, the superior to its reflective cousin in many situations. It’s worth trying both and seeing if your style results in taking more hits than not- if you play a high-risk style, the reflective may be the better bet, but if you focus more on sustained fire this is your machine.

Gyrfalcon 3 keeps the Ferro plating from the 2, as well as a switch to standard double heat sinks. The superb AA-abilities of the LBX guns are traded (foolishly) for Ultra AC-2s, a baffling ‘upgrade’ that removes the AA flexibility and even a few hexes of range for dubious gains in fire rate. However, a targeting computer does make all four guns more accurate, so… there’s that at least? Falcon pilots will no doubt keep ranting or cheering to a minimum while crammed into a small cockpit. While the computer is nice- and in the hands of a good gunner could allow for some wicked aimed shots- this is probably the least useful of the Gyrfalcon family.

And then there’s the Gyrfalcon 4, the oddball of the group. We’re back to the heat sinks of the 2 combined with its armor, but where we had the LBX guns we now have a pair of TSEMP cannons. This is a polarizing weapon, and not everyone’s a fan of the big risks in using them. But, here they are- so if you’re a fan, your ship has come in. Two of them on a fast-moving frame mean that you’ll get two chances to smack your target and shut them up. If you’re not a big TSEMP fan, obviously this won’t give you any big thrills. With the somewhat lacking armor, the author doesn’t suggest this version for frontline work.

It then remains to note one last Gyrfalcon version, that of Galaxy Commander Aleks Hazen, deceased brother to current Khan Malviina Hazen. Aleks is noted as having the two large lasers as usual, but using Ultra AC-5s in place of the usual autocannons. Where the weight came from for that is unknown. What is known is that Aleks used a Mech known for its long-range prowess and tried to get in a fistfight with a Hatchetman, and got exactly what he deserved for doing so. Whether he had reflective armor or not is unknown, but if so he had double the folly on his head for this asinine operation and deserves nothing but scorn from Falcon fans and haters alike for this foolish act.

Where would you find one of these? Well, it’s hard to swing a dead nova cat in the Falcon touman these days without hitting a Gyrfalcon- it’s a common sight in the Clan’s formations, providing both long-range support and morale boosts to Falcon forces watching an avatar of Turkina herself stride into battle alongside them. The design was used heavily in the invasion of the Republic and the desant leading up to it, and has also seen combat against other Clans- the TRO entry notes a star of these machines facing off with a star of Hells Horses’ Balius, defeating their enemy. The Balius’ were then destroyed rather than taken as the prize of the fight, specifically to taunt the Horses, because the Falcons are out of their minds these days if you haven’t heard.

So there you have it, folks. It’s a little frail, but won’t get hit much to begin with. It slashes at ranges that most targets can’t even reply at, murders aircraft with cruel indifference, and makes Rifleman pilots green (jade?) with envy. It’s a joy to use, so if you haven’t had a chance to do so, be sure to give it a shot sometime. And of course, dive in to discuss this impressive war machine below- or go hit the design forum to come up with your own configuration.

(http://animalia-life.club/data_images/gyrfalcon/gyrfalcon5.jpg)
“Watchoo starin’ at? Reply to the thread, mah dude!”
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 April 2017, 12:01:51
laser heatsinks and reflective armor? it's a disco ball of doom  ;D
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 April 2017, 12:22:59
The cheese is strong with this one.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 12 April 2017, 13:22:42
I love this weird little bastard. It whispers in the ear of my inner troll, saying "Do it. Do it for the lulz." It should come as no surprise that my inner troll and my inner Falcon are on good terms. Reminds me, I need to finish kitbashing my second mini(I like to shorten the lasers by about 1/2").

Also, the Gyrfalcon 4 deserves notice, as being the most BV-expensive medium mech in all of Battletech. :)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 April 2017, 13:26:09

Also, the Gyrfalcon 4 deserves notice, as being the most BV-expensive medium mech in all of Battletech. :)

Is it? I use BV so little that I didn't even think to look (figured it would be high), but THE highest, even over Society cheese? I'm impressed.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 12 April 2017, 13:42:05
Even better. The Gyrfalcon 4 totals up to a staggering 3,716 BV. The Society only beat that with ONE unit in their entire mech arsenal...and with the Turkina Z's 3935 BV, they still needed a Falcon chassis to do it.

(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m35hosfU9h1r4t9h1o2_500.jpg)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: wantec on 12 April 2017, 13:54:08
Is it? I use BV so little that I didn't even think to look (figured it would be high), but THE highest, even over Society cheese? I'm impressed.
Yeah, TSEMP can do that to you, double TSEMP even more so.


Interesting bit, the Eyrie debuted in 3087, the Gyrfalcons in 3112, the Shrikes in 3113/3115/3116 and the Jade Hawks in 3136. I'm not sure the significance, but I find it interesting there was a 25 year gap after the Eyrie, then a 20 or so year gap after the Gyrfalcon & Shrike.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 12 April 2017, 13:57:20
When I first read about it, I thought it was foolish, as most mechs that mount two LB2s are.  Yes, its a contender for most accurate weapon in the game, but since you're probably using cluster rounds if sniping and hoping for golden BBs (or crits on tanks or fighters) its only a single damage point for each five ton weapon, even if you can do it from 30 hexes away. 

Reading this, I think I have a new found appreciation for it.  While most of the Falcons in the books don't really use the mech appropriately, a clever player who did so would find themself in possession of a nearly peerless sniper.  I actually like the cut of the 3's jib, since I like the Targeting Computer, and I fight mechs more than armor, and I almost never see fighters.  Yes, it makes compromises I wish I didn't, or didn't have to, but the UACs with the TC basically match the LBs for accuracy, and a few extra hits from the LLs may well make up for its deficiencies.  Of course, I've never used one, and I haven't seen the 1 used for years and years, so perhaps I'm letting my inordinate love of TCs show.

As for the BV on the 4, I'm I reading that right?  That's more than any Dire Wolf!  Its hard to imagine it ever being good value in a BV game, since you could have a lance of lesser IS mediums, or a high quality pilot in a high quality Clan assault or heavy (that sort that could shred even such a nimble mech before it could unleash its canons).
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 April 2017, 14:06:50
Interesting bit, the Eyrie debuted in 3087, the Gyrfalcons in 3112, the Shrikes in 3113/3115/3116 and the Jade Hawks in 3136. I'm not sure the significance, but I find it interesting there was a 25 year gap after the Eyrie, then a 20 or so year gap after the Gyrfalcon & Shrike.

When you gut your scientist caste to the core (and justifiably so, in the Falcon's case), there's only so many people you have left to design new Battlemechs. One team at a time, of course, because you don't let more than that get together and start the Society all over again. ;) (Nah, do remember that while the winged beasties have large gaps, you also have other designs from the Falcons in that time period like the Thor II, Loki II, etc. to take up some time as well.)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Maelwys on 12 April 2017, 14:20:44
Its not just sniping at 30 hexes for the Gyrfalcon's LB2-Xs. Medium range goes to 20 hexes. For some targets you're going to be hitting at +2 when they can barely respond.

As for the 25 years inbetween, the fluff of the Gyrfalcon states that Olivetti never really planned on doing a successor to Eyrie, but the Gyrfalcon came about after a Clan Council Directive.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 12 April 2017, 14:22:28
The 4's probably not worth it in a small game, but consider its use in larger ones. Against a faction that's swung all the way to the crazy end of we-don't-zell-anymore, what's the life expectancy of a unit that gets shut down? For that matter, what's going to happen to your line if a pair of GyrFours split their shots, and upwards of a lance of your guys now have a devil of a time hitting any of the fleet-footed Falcons in front of them?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 12 April 2017, 14:26:51
I wonder if you had enough of these dancing around pestering the enemy if you could then sneak in a Flamberge 2 into their midst and let all hell break loose. "Oh look, one of these Falcons is finally jumping 210 meters at a time towards us. Two large lasers and a pair of puny autocannons is nothing to worry abou...oh Kerensky, where are all those shells coming from?!?"

I haven't played with a whole lot of Dark Age units but this looks like it requires some finesse, not just a run up and shoot 'Mech. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Hellbie, nice write-up.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 12 April 2017, 14:34:07
I haven't played with a whole lot of Dark Age units but this looks like it requires some finesse, not just a run up and shoot 'Mech.

That sums up most of Clan Jade Falcon. :)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 April 2017, 14:35:50
The 4's probably not worth it in a small game, but consider its use in larger ones. Against a faction that's swung all the way to the crazy end of we-don't-zell-anymore, what's the life expectancy of a unit that gets shut down? For that matter, what's going to happen to your line if a pair of GyrFours split their shots, and upwards of a lance of your guys now have a devil of a time hitting any of the fleet-footed Falcons in front of them?

Even worse, if it's shut down, it's now a target for battle armor swarming. Now, the Gyrfalcon isn't an Omnimech, so it isn't able to deliver the kids itself, but a spare RL10 or something similar would be a great delivery system- rush up, get in a few swipes from the APC's guns and unload the point, swarm the target while it's shut down the following turn, and even if it does start up again it's got a major problem. (Remember that the Falcons ended up with the Ice Hellion Afreet suit... if you're not familiar, its weapons suck but it can jump four hexes at a time. O HAI!)

You definitely wouldn't want to use this in a duel (well, maybe?), but as part of a team it could get pretty ugly. I'd be curious to see if having Inner Sphere-developed weapons give it any dishonor in the eyes of warriors or not, but the benefits probably outweigh the taint.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 12 April 2017, 14:43:09
If you can afford to keep the Gyrfalcon in that area(or vector another one in), go for subsequent shots in the second turn. Not only would your suits get easy swarm numbers, but on the second turn, that target may not be able to try any shaking-off...
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 April 2017, 15:06:33
I wonder if you had enough of these dancing around pestering the enemy if you could then sneak in a Flamberge 2 into their midst and let all hell break loose. "Oh look, one of these Falcons is finally jumping 210 meters at a time towards us. Two large lasers and a pair of puny autocannons is nothing to worry abou...oh Kerensky, where are all those shells coming from?!?"

I haven't played with a whole lot of Dark Age units but this looks like it requires some finesse, not just a run up and shoot 'Mech. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Hellbie, nice write-up.

Thanks! Like I said, this is a favorite of mine, I fell in love as soon as I built it off one of the MWDA dossier's stats (what we would now call the Gyrfalcon 2, but with standard DHS since I didn't know about the laser sinks). That it ended up this good in the TRO was a relief, and has given me one of my favorite weapons of the Dark Age era (along with the Loki II-B)

Flamberge 2s and 3s are a good choice, but the other one to consider is Jade Hawks, preferably the standard (or if you're truly sadistic, the IS-built JHK-03). With a cover from Gyrfalcons and maybe a Shrike or two, a few Jade Hawks (with some Eyries to escort) become a claw-swinging nightmare from which there's not much coming back. Stick your head up to shoot at them before they advance too far, and you take a beating from the Gyrfalcons. Avoid that menace, and the Hawks will pull your Mechs apart limb from limb (literally!).
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: wantec on 12 April 2017, 15:07:19
I haven't played with a whole lot of Dark Age units but this looks like it requires some finesse, not just a run up and shoot 'Mech. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Hellbie, nice write-up.
You're right, it's more of a run/jump sideways or backwards and shoot 'Mech. Once it's just inside the long or medium range bracket, keep it there.

Even worse, if it's shut down, it's now a target for battle armor swarming. Now, the Gyrfalcon isn't an Omnimech, so it isn't able to deliver the kids itself, but a spare RL10 or something similar would be a great delivery system- rush up, get in a few swipes from the APC's guns and unload the point, swarm the target while it's shut down the following turn, and even if it does start up again it's got a major problem. (Remember that the Falcons ended up with the Ice Hellion Afreet suit... if you're not familiar, its weapons suck but it can jump four hexes at a time. O HAI!)
Fire Falcon, Black Lanner, Hellion, Phantom, Ice Ferret, are all 7/11 or faster Omnis, that show up on the Dark Age Era availability for the Falcons. And for BA you have the Afreet, Elementals (Std, Fire, & Space), Clan Medium BA, Salamanders, Undines, and Surats, all of which I believe can be mechanized and swarm.

You definitely wouldn't want to use this in a duel (well, maybe?), but as part of a team it could get pretty ugly. I'd be curious to see if having Inner Sphere-developed weapons give it any dishonor in the eyes of warriors or not, but the benefits probably outweigh the taint.
It's not a total waste in a duel. Even if you don't shut down the enemy it wreaks havoc with their targeting & such, kind of like spanking it with Infernos or Plasma Cannons, so I don't think it would be that dishonorable of a weapon system. Plus if you do shut down the other guy, you can take aimed shots either at the head or maybe slice off the weapons/legs of the enemy. Quick way to end a duel if you can pull it off.



It then remains to note one last Gyrfalcon version, that of Galaxy Commander Aleks Hazen, deceased brother to current Khan Malviina Hazen. Aleks is noted as having the two large lasers as usual, but using Ultra AC-5s in place of the usual autocannons. Where the weight came from for that is unknown.
If you take a 3, you can drop the UAC/2s and the targeting computer for a pair of UAC/5s, but you only get a single ton of ammo each.

I wish there was a version with CRAC/2s, but you have to find a spare ton just to give each gun its own ton of ammo. It works out to be too much of a stretch. Now you could always do just a single CRAC, but that would mess with the symmetry too much.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 12 April 2017, 15:25:43
Fire Falcon, Black Lanner, Hellion, Phantom, Ice Ferret, are all 7/11 or faster Omnis, that show up on the Dark Age Era availability for the Falcons. And for BA you have the Afreet, Elementals (Std, Fire, & Space), Clan Medium BA, Salamanders, Undines, and Surats, all of which I believe can be mechanized and swarm.

Unrelated to the Gyrfalcon, but you just gave me an idea involving a Hellion G and a Point of Salamander Anti-Infantry... >:D
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 12 April 2017, 15:28:28
I suppose in a big battle you can write a few thousand BV off more easily, so the 4 might be usable.  Of course, in a non BV setting, then who the heck cares.  Shoot, by tonnage, the Gyr 4 and BA combo (Salamanders, maybe?) would be a steal.  Main worry is that in a medium to large battle, once anyone realizes what the damn thing can do, it's going to get a lot of very unfriendly attention in a big hurry.  Now, since its a very nimble mech maybe that's a good thing, since its drawing a lot of fire away from other mechs that doubtless mount more proper firepower.

I don't mean to say its a bad mech (its not, for its role) or that I don't like it (I'm very intrigued), just that it seems like abysmal value under BV.

I wonder if you had enough of these dancing around pestering the enemy if you could then sneak in a Flamberge 2 into their midst and let all hell break loose. "Oh look, one of these Falcons is finally jumping 210 meters at a time towards us. Two large lasers and a pair of puny autocannons is nothing to worry abou...oh Kerensky, where are all those shells coming from?!?"

Once of these days, I'd like to try playing where you really only get ten seconds for decision making.  In a normal game where you get a minute or two to think, it'd never work, but if you only had ten seconds to think about which of the star of Falcons coming for you to shoot...

As is, I do think the Falcons' consistent design philosophy does tend to make for groups that work well together.  Lots of different ways of making hard hitting mobile forces with good range (mostly).  I'd sooner leave the Claws at home and bring a lot of patience and some extra AC2 ammo, but that's just me.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Empyrus on 12 April 2017, 15:45:12
Good article. The Gyrfalcon is certainly respectable medium 'Mech but i'm not sure i'd call it the best one.

I don't see much wrong with the UAC variant because a TarComp doesn't work with LB-X cluster munitions. Sure, you lose the AA ability but i don't think that's a role 'Mechs should be doing during the Dark Age in any case (not that an AA-capable 'Mech in a lance/Star is not welcome). The loss of range is disappointing admittedly, but 100% damage increase is pretty good really, as damage adds up over time. Also, with limited  cooling, one can retain a bit more damage while dropping an ERLL to cool down.

That said, i don't care for the variants in the first place. Dropping the Reflec armor removes too much flavor from the 'Mech.


As for the TSEMPs... TSEMPs are evil. Dual-shot has good chance of shutting down an enemy 'Mech. And if it is a commander or other high value target, all the better. Not sure they're worth the BV in normal "death match" games though. Ultimate TSEMPs are something of a scenario weapons, for when you need to capture a target, not kill it.



Not sure Aleksandr Hazen actually uses Ultra/5s in his Gyrfalcon. Sure, Flight of the Falcon says "50 millimeter autocannon" but AC designations do not necessarily match with their caliber but rather they tell about the damage potential. Perhaps the author intended it to be so in this case, but we don't know for sure. Interpretation is not really what a wiki like Sarna should have. (Not critique of Hellbie's article but of Sarna really.)


I love the Falcon totem 'Mech lineup. Visually they're striking, and i think CGL did good work converting them to standard BT. (Some variants aside, like the Jade Hawk's missile variants that basically throw away the core points of the 'Mech.)
So, Hellbie, are you going to write articles for the others? (The Jade Hawk is covered already though.)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 12 April 2017, 15:57:40
The Falcons were, in this poster's humble opinion, tied for "biggest winners" of any faction in 3145 when it comes to 'Mech designs (tied with the Free Worlds League, if you squint and ignore the Violator).  The Gyrfalcon certainly contributes to that, being one of the premier sniper units in the game.  There are units that can dish out more firepower more accurately, but there is quite simply nothing that dishes it out on a platform this mobile.  If you told someone used to playing 3025 tech that one day there would be a Rifleman 3N that could jump 7 hexes, took half damage from energy weapons, that had a range 40% greater (on both weapons, even), and that did more damage per hit while still having almost exactly the same amount of armor, first they'd ask if you were high, and then they'd ask for some of what you had.

I love this design, and the article is very good. O0
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 April 2017, 17:29:32
Hellbie just likes it for having -2 autocannon that won't jam.  Also for lighting up the battlefield like Liberace Cullen...
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Frogfoot on 12 April 2017, 18:41:22
What shots do hit are mitigated by the reflective armor soaking up much of the damage.
...
It’s worth trying both and seeing if your style results in taking more hits than not- if you play a high-risk style, the reflective may be the better bet, but if you focus more on sustained fire this is your machine.

As well as being able to dampen down the long-range return fire from ERLLs, ERPPCs, Clan LPLs, etc, I think the reflective armour greatly helps against this mech's natural counter: fast, mobile in-fighters packing a lot of pulse lasers.

Having said that, in-fighters do like to try to kick the legs off their targets too.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Moonsword on 12 April 2017, 20:26:19
The reflective armor is great if you're dealing with Clanners.  Sure, long-range fire is cheesy but it's effective and the Clans' greatest advantages come from their energy weapons, not their missiles or ballistics.  Better yet, Clanners don't like to use melee weapons (and the Falcons are the biggest exception to that) or area-effect weapons when they're dealing with other Clanners.

Against Steiner, it's a little more questionable.  In addition to being one of the factions to mass-produce the Long Tom Cannon on a regular field unit - one that, unlike the Horses, they're quite willing to employ against the Falcons - they also love big honking ballistics and have an unnatural fascination with the hatchet.  Sure, the Gyrfalcon's stock model outranges all of that but getting 30 uninterrupted hexes is something a lot of commanders can arrange not to happen with a little creativity.  Given all of that, I suspect the 2 and 3 get more heavily provided to units that see a lot of action against the Lyrans.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 April 2017, 20:33:15
Well, with the Horses, Bears, and the Republic, there'd be plenty of use for that reflective armor on the east side of things.  Issue your ferrofibrous versions on the west against the Lyrans, perhaps.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Wrangler on 12 April 2017, 20:46:25
I personally like the Gyrfalcon, it's fast machine and is able to get someone at range.  I came to like it through the novels and dossier as well.  I think (my opinion) the laser heat sinks came on later. I honestly don't think the laser heat sinks were thing until the TRO was written since the Mech's stats were exclusively from the dossier and i doubt the marketer/designer who was said to used Heavy Metal Pro to give some stats to their designs when MWDA came out used anything but normal double heat sinks.

I actually like the UAC/5 version i wish they had made it work as design.  I take it that unique record sheet for Alexandr Hazen didn't come out?  I didn't see it in any of the normal Record sheets for 3145/50 era books.

Thanks again, JadeHellbringer, for another bang up job!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Deadborder on 12 April 2017, 20:52:46
The Gyrfalcon is the world's most annoying thing. I love it.

Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 April 2017, 20:53:57
I'd like to point out that the Bears have an entire Galaxy whose shtick is "hit things with an axe."
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: sadlerbw on 12 April 2017, 21:02:46
Small point of order: I was poking through XTRO republic 3 today, and noticed that the Ryoken 3 XP C has a BV of 4387. The A and B are also in the mid-3000's, but the C has a TSEMP, which throws it up into silly-pants land. Of course, it is a prototype, so the Gyrfalcon still deserves respect, but there are more expensive canon mediums.

That said, I have a very healthy respect for this mech. It is, in a word, effective. Now, I personally am not really a fan of AC2s in any of their forms, so it does annoy me that they show up on so many of the variants, but I won't try to claim they are useless. I just don't like them! Even with that significant tonnage investment in a weapon I'm not fond of, this thing is still a mighty pain to fight, and that says something about just how good it is.

As for the super-expensive variant, I'm not a big fan of TSEMPin general. Not because it is bad or expensive, but because I disagree with the stun mechanic. In a meta-sense, I really do not like handing out the skip-your-next-turn card. If it was just the other mechanics I wouldn't mind, but the loose-a-turn shutdown is something I am greatly against having in the game. It isn't just that it is powerful, but it takes away your ability to play with that unit. Getting knocked down, or having a heat spike from plasma weapons is annoying, but it doesn't take away all your choices and actions. Restricts them maybe, but doesn't take them away. Shutting down you mech does. You literally don't get to do anything unless you happen to fall over, in which case you get to roll a seatbelt check. While heat can shut down your mech as well, heat input from weapons is capped so that you can't usually, from being shot with heat weapons alone, shut down a mech. Ok, maybe an intro tech mech with two engine crits might let you shut it down, but generally you can avoid heat shutdowns if you want to. Sorry for the rant, but I really don't like this mechanic, and I wish it was retconned out of the game!

But yeah, Gyrfalcon: you are definitely falconing hard enough.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 12 April 2017, 21:33:24
The idea of pairing up CRAC/2s on this beast appeals to me.  Unlike the LB-2X, it will sure as hell still be generating multiple hits at range.  You'd have to drop the lasers, which stings, so perhaps pair that hypothetical variant with a Standard and watch the holes open up and then be immediately filled with lead at 24 hexes.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 12 April 2017, 23:09:43
I'd almost think of the Gyrfalcon as an ideal anti-air platform if it wasn't for the occasional reflec armor. Bombers love catching guys using reflec armor.

Though I could also imagine using that particular weakness as a trap. I wonder how many Lyran pilots have gone in for an easy bomb run only to get a pair of TSEMPs in the face and fall out of the sky?

I know, the odds of actually being shut down by a TSEMP are low, but just imagine the look on the pilot's face. Imagine it. Savor it. It's beautiful. Their anguish sustains me.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: sadlerbw on 12 April 2017, 23:30:34
The idea of pairing up CRAC/2s on this beast appeals to me.  Unlike the LB-2X, it will sure as hell still be generating multiple hits at range.  You'd have to drop the lasers, which stings, so perhaps pair that hypothetical variant with a Standard and watch the holes open up and then be immediately filled with lead at 24 hexes.

If you switch to an XXL you are almost half way there. After that the choices get tougher. Dropping the probe is easy, but do you drop the partial wing? Move to an XL gyro and drop MASC? Switch armors? You can get there, but fitting the second one requires a compromise.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 12 April 2017, 23:47:29
There's a bit of debate as to which sort of AC2 to use (I'm still team UAC, for the reference) but I think that masks the question of weather the mech succeeds because of its AC2s, or in spite of them.  Yes, I'll grant that its one of the better uses of the weapon, but when one wonders what could be done with those 12 tons, its hard not to wonder if this admittedly good mech is as good as it might be. 

What could be done?  A TC, an extra ER LL, and a pile of heatsinks (I don't know if the crits work) would add meaningful power, increase the accuracy of that power, with minimal loss of range.  You could do a larger engine, making the already quick mech even quicker.  Improved jump jets.  More and better armor.  ER LRMs.  A bevy of short ranged weapons, just to mix things up.

Now, maybe that's mid 31st century thinking, and in the 32nd century the larger numbers of tanks and other non mech targets makes it more desirable to have those 2-4 extra hits, and I've just missed the ball being out of the loop for a bit.  But there's a part of me that thinks that pure damage is usually enough to get the job done, and AC2s just don't carry their weight.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Terrace on 12 April 2017, 23:47:46
I'm imagining the 3140's-era Turkina Keshik using this design in combination with the Shrike, Jade Hawk, and Eyrie for virtually all of the BattleMech portion, with enough Omnis sprinkled in to free the Elementals from requiring dedicated vehicles to cart them around.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: SteelRaven on 12 April 2017, 23:58:20
Whenever someone spends so much time talking about how a 'mech is a 'ideal anti-air platform' I get the impression it can do little more than that.

I kinda like the Gyrfalcon but that's more because of the ER Large Lasers, the Class 2 ACs are a good way to add firepower without sacrificing range or adding heat but I would like to see a variant that dumped the peashooters for more armor, maybe a better engine.

That said, it's a interesting response to the Wolves Sun Cobra. 
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 13 April 2017, 07:51:05
There's no question that AC-2 class weapons are a bit subpar for the weight they cost- the AA advantage to the LB-2X is really its saving grace, and even then there's probably better ideas if you want to just hammer a target (I gave thought to Streak LRM-10s while writing the article, but never did get a chance to try building it to see if it looked okay or not)

Where it ends up being useful here, beyond that AA ability and ridiculous range, is the heat factor. With 11 heat sinks (13 for some variants), we're already taxing the heat system by firing both lasers, and adding in a run or jump means you're looking at some minor problems. Adding in the heat from other weapons like the LRMs or another large laser would start to cause some serious 'uh oh' issues, meaning either a Mech that suffers serious overheating problems  just from using its primary weapons (hello Hellbringer Prime), or one that has to hold off portions of its weaponry to keep from exploding, begging the question of why they're there to begin with. But these have extremely low heat buildup, and it really helps here to accentuate the main weapons (the lasers) without forcing the machine to make tougher heat choices than it already does. It's not often I'm a big fan of these weapons, but here it's a very useful system.


That said, it's a interesting response to the Wolves Sun Cobra. 

In an article already as long as it was, I decided to avoid comparisons to other Mechs (Rifleman aside), but yeah, they  make a very interesting match. The Cobra's accuracy and hitting power are very impressive, and you can't overheat one if you pour gas on it first, but it's surprisingly slow for a Clan medium- so it can't really avoid damage well, nor get into firing positions (or out of danger) quickly if it needs to. The Gyrfalcon meanwhile has a tricky heat curve to manage if you're aggressive with it, above-average mobility, and a bit more scattered damage curve. Both are very useful machines, but it's interesting to see the two Clans take very different methods to get where they're going.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kidd on 13 April 2017, 08:17:40
here's how it all started...

(Somewhere on Sudeten, a Falcon Watch officer removes hoods from a group of elderly blindfolded men)
Falcon Watch: Freebirth Scientists! You are now the property of Clan Jade Falcon!
Scientist: Why did you kidnap us?
Falcon: Because we killed all our Scientists, and we need new Mechs! You will design new Mechs for us! Now get to work!
Scientist: But... but... we don't know what kind of Mechs you...
(Falcon Officer shrieks like how he thinks a jade falcon should shriek, pulls out a needler and perforates the Scientist)
Falcon: WE ARE FALCONS! WE LIKE BIRDS! A LOT! NOW GET TO WORK, OR FEEL MY TALONED WRATH!
Scientists: Sir yes sir! You like birds! A lot! Got that loud and clear sir!

(Thus were the seeds sown for the Eyrie, Gyrfalcon, Shrike, etc...)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 13 April 2017, 08:21:45
I didn't like the LB-2X until I started imagining it operating essentially like a BOFORS (pom pom pom pom pom!) with the ammo drum rotating after each volley to load a new clip.  I just wish I possessed the modeling skill to cut out the drum and magnetize it to spin.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 13 April 2017, 08:29:30
(Falcon Officer shrieks like how he thinks a jade falcon should shriek, pulls out a needler and perforates the Scientist)


This is even funnier if you imagine him doing it like the people from Arrested Development, where no one knows what a chicken actually sounds like.  ^-^
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 13 April 2017, 09:31:54
My next goal: Design a mech for the Falcons, that with have a back thingy like a Hatamoto or Nobori-Nin...except it will look like a rooster's tail. The Warriors will love it, until a freeborn who spent his early childhood on a farm finally stops laughing long enough to explain. Bloodshed Hilarity ensues.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 13 April 2017, 10:01:11
My next goal: Design a mech for the Falcons, that with have a back thingy like a Hatamoto or Nobori-Nin...except it will look like a rooster's tail. The Warriors will love it, until a freeborn who spent his early childhood on a farm finally stops laughing long enough to explain. Bloodshed Hilarity ensues.

I don't know. This IS the Clan that gave their urban-renewal vehicle a name like 'Chalchiuhtotolin'. They may be baby-eating psychopaths, but the Jade Falcons at least have a little bit of a sense of humor about themselves somewhere.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Empyrus on 13 April 2017, 10:05:26
I didn't like the LB-2X until I started imagining it operating essentially like a BOFORS (pom pom pom pom pom!) with the ammo drum rotating after each volley to load a new clip.  I just wish I possessed the modeling skill to cut out the drum and magnetize it to spin.
Pretty sure that's what AC/2s are really. Anything from the first QF 1-pounder to modern M242 Bushmaster autocannon mounted on Bradleys, that's basically AC2. Unfortunately BT doesn't really let them be what they are... (Or the weapon is really bad in BT's battlefields.)

Man, AC/2s in MWO were fun exactly for this reason... I remember sitting back in a Blackjack and frag-stealing half my teams' kills with steady firing.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 13 April 2017, 10:08:34
They may be baby-eating psychopaths

Omelets are tasty!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 April 2017, 10:49:59
This is even funnier if you imagine him doing it like the people from Arrested Development, where no one knows what a chicken actually sounds like.  ^-^
Don't the Falcons have some sort of battle-language that's basically bird calls?  or was that one of those things that's mentioned once and then disappears?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: mbear on 13 April 2017, 11:07:10
It'd be kind of fun to have the standard Gyrfalcon face off against a Pandarus or Apollo-4M. I imagine the ELRMs might level the playing field a bit, especially against reflective armor.

And with the Sea Skimmer getting an ELRM variant, I imagine the LCAF quartermasters could get a few ELRM racks for their Omni units.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 13 April 2017, 11:19:19
It'd be kind of fun to have the standard Gyrfalcon face off against a Pandarus or Apollo-4M. I imagine the ELRMs might level the playing field a bit, especially against reflective armor.

And with the Sea Skimmer getting an ELRM variant, I imagine the LCAF quartermasters could get a few ELRM racks for their Omni units.

You'd need a brave Apollo driver. The ELRM gives you range that allows you to outrange the Clanner (one of the few ways to do so!), but the Gyrfalcon is fast enough (and jumps far enough) to get its movement modifiers up and make life difficult on the Apollo's ability to aim well at those ranges. The Clan pilot is probably best off doing something that doesn't come naturally to a Gyrfalcon driver- charging in. get in under those absurd minimum ranges, and that Apollo is totally helpless- if it finds a way to score a hit, half the missiles won't arm anyway, nerfing the damage from the launchers. Even the head-mounted laser is cut in half due to the reflective armor. If that seems unlikely, remember that the Apollo moves 4/6, against a Mech that can reach bursts of ten hexes at a time and can jump further than a bug Mech. The Clan pilot can and SHOULD dictate the range, and in this case it's 'find out what color his eyes are'.

That Apollo isn't HELPLESS, but it's at a huge disadvantage. Most of that applies to the Pandarus as well, really.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 13 April 2017, 11:44:54
Especially since ELRMs still aren't artillery, and will only do normal damage to Reflective.  Apollo runs out of ammo at 25 hexes and then the Gyrfalcon takes its 85% remaining armor and plays with it like a cat turn a mouse.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kharim on 13 April 2017, 11:57:59
Also, the Gyrfalcon 4 deserves notice, as being the most BV-expensive medium mech in all of Battletech. :)
Well you seem not to know about Skinwalker C (Ryoken III) a 55 ton machine that costs a whooping 4387 bv!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 13 April 2017, 12:05:21
Biggest risk against an ER LRM Apollo would be physicals.  Yes, on turns the Gyrfalcon wins int it can it can be exactly in the right spot, but when it loses, it has to chose to put itself in a spot where the Apollo can back up out of minimum range and take a lovely short range shot, or rush in to punching range and see what that nice shiny armor is really made of.  More terrain makes that harder, but taking a slow ER LRM mech against a mech with incredible jumping power in tight terrain is just silly at the best of times. 

Now, I do think the Gyrfalcon still wins three times in four, but I think its a bit of a miss match to say let's do this one on one.  The Falcons (from what I recall, which goes back a bit) aren't really up on zell, and no sensible person should be using Apollos alone.  A pair or lance of ER LRM mechs in a company against a pair or star of Gyrfalcons in a star or binary would be a more reasonable thing to see, and I think it would be more interesting.  The Gyrfalcons can't rush in, but their ability to do their usual thing is impacted.  Honestly, I think with the G-Falcons spending more time dodging fire, both sides would just spend most of their time missing and taking one another out of the battle, unless one or both sides have very solid pilots.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Weirdo on 13 April 2017, 12:15:30
Well you seem not to know about Skinwalker C (Ryoken III) a 55 ton machine that costs a whooping 4387 bv!

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/3b500a0a9be1249cf38638c217113c94/tumblr_inline_n0viefzAzE1qafrh6.gif)

...I think it's safe to assume that I'm aware of a mech that was discussed already in this very thread.

I believe that XTRO was not yet out when I checked the BV, and I probably had not compared it to everything else in the game since then.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: misterpants on 13 April 2017, 21:14:48
I wonder if there would be a market for a TSEMP-based variant with a short-range laser battery and talons.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 14 April 2017, 01:09:51
Great write up, I was initially weary of this mech because of those tonnage nomming LB-2s but when used as you suggest, bouncing around at damn long range, pelting fire all the time then its verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry dangerous.  I don't mind the  UAC versions, sure you loose a bit of range but its still enough to work well with the ER large. 

Not sure about TSEMP's, as they seem a bit niche, but I guess they are useful, especially as the Falcons treat EVERYONE as Dezgra save the clans when figthing so stunlocking someone and then having another mech rip it apart would make sense.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kojak on 14 April 2017, 04:41:36
I don't know. This IS the Clan that gave their urban-renewal vehicle a name like 'Chalchiuhtotolin'. They may be baby-eating psychopaths, but the Jade Falcons at least have a little bit of a sense of humor about themselves somewhere.

I'd have to imagine they do, or else how to you explain this?:

(http://www.crayven.net/warhawk/theclans/cjfturkkeshiksummoner.jpg)
Pictured: A Jade Falcon Mechwarrior grits his teeth so vigorously it causes his cooling vest to pop open
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 14 April 2017, 05:55:55
Quote
I'd have to imagine they do, or else how to you explain this?:

COBRAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kidd on 14 April 2017, 06:16:26
I'd have to imagine they do, or else how to you explain this?:

(http://www.crayven.net/warhawk/theclans/cjfturkkeshiksummoner.jpg)
Pictured: A Jade Falcon Mechwarrior grits his teeth so vigorously it causes his cooling vest to pop open
Internal monologue: "I am a bird on the wing... watch how I soar... (squawwwrrrrk!)"
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: mbear on 14 April 2017, 07:02:11
Especially since ELRMs still aren't artillery, and will only do normal damage to Reflective.

D'oh! I forgot that part. Thought Reflective took double damage from anything that wasn't an energy weapon. But it does look like reflective armor takes double damage from physical attacks, so a Mjolnir (or three) would probably be a better counter.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 14 April 2017, 07:34:28
D'oh! I forgot that part. Thought Reflective took double damage from anything that wasn't an energy weapon. But it does look like reflective armor takes double damage from physical attacks, so a Mjolnir (or three) would probably be a better counter.

This marks the first time anyone has said anything positive about a Mjolnir.

The problem is, the Mjolnir can advance only slightly faster than a Gyrfalcon can backpedal, and it actually is outjumped by the Clan machine. The TSM is helpful (and those single heat sinks mean it'll get used, oi...), but by the time a Mjolnir can get in close enough to use anything other than its laser it's probably been sliced to ribbons by the Gyr's attacks. I'd wager if you sent three, you lose two before they get anything more than passing shots off.

I'll back in so far that a fast-moving close-combat machine is a difficult thing for a Gyrfalcon to deal with- the Scarabus comes to mind, for example, or an Osiris (which in testing actually did give a Gyr 2 a rough afternoon before it got pooched by a supporting Hel Prime). The old, venerable Saladin is a great choice as well, because AC-20s hurt no matter what kind of armor you're wearing, and that has the speed to actually chase down a Gyrfalcon to get in the shots it needs. And of course, actual artillery is a good way to go- even if you don't cause direct damage, a Gyrfalcon is forced to leave its firing position and find somewhere safe from even a Thumper's shells, making for the single best way to deal with the Falcon's new toy (and that has to absolutely burn them, knowing dishonorable artillery fire is their greatest weakness). But the Mjolnir... I'm honestly surprised to see it as your solution to the Gyrfalcon. I'm hard-pressed to think of it as the solution to any battlefield problem, other than 'the enemy will run out of ammo by killing these first'.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: SD501st on 14 April 2017, 12:50:10
I think we've found the perfect target for a Celerity CLR-05-X... maybe the Republic should give that Celerity variant the nickname "Bird Dog".
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Caedis Animus on 14 April 2017, 14:11:33
I'd imagine a Berserker ambushing a Gyrfalcon under double-blind would be almost hilarious. For the Berserker.

Also, would the Spatha be an effective counter to the GyrFalcon, even taking into account the jumpjets? Both mount reflective armor, but the Spatha barely wins out in speed (Especially with TSM), and also is melee-focused.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 14 April 2017, 14:28:02
I'd imagine a Berserker ambushing a Gyrfalcon under double-blind would be almost hilarious. For the Berserker.

Also, would the Spatha be an effective counter to the GyrFalcon, even taking into account the jumpjets? Both mount reflective armor, but the Spatha barely wins out in speed (Especially with TSM), and also is melee-focused.

Beserker sneaking up on anything in double-blind ends badly for the opponent, to be fair. ;)

Spatha... honestly, I'm not sure it would go well. The reflective armor will keep the Spatha from taking as much damage from the Falcon's lasers, and it can close quickly, but the Clanner either has that amazing range advantage (and rapid backward movement) in an open field, or the jump jets giving it the edge in a cluttered field. It might not be a fun fight for the Falcon, but if used right it probably never sees the bad end of that sword.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 14 April 2017, 15:11:57
I think we've found the perfect target for a Celerity CLR-05-X... maybe the Republic should give that Celerity variant the nickname "Bird Dog".
I've been thinking that through the entire thread.
"So there's a mech with reflective armour that wants to have 25 hexes clear line of fire.....  Works for me!"
Of course, they'd still be hard to hit. And the TC version would probably waste the drone before it gets there; BT doesn't simulate inertia well.
Beautiful mech, looks aside.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Caedis Animus on 14 April 2017, 15:15:22
I mean, the look on the Gyrfalcon Mechwarrior's face would be priceless in the instant before the Celerity hit.

What, mouthing "Oh fudge" right before they realize why the Falcons should make like Clan Wolf and wear brown pants? Or screaming in classic super-villain fashion? "This cannot be!"
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 April 2017, 15:26:12
I think that the Falcons deliberately breed warriors for the screaming phenotype.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: misterpants on 14 April 2017, 15:41:34
Sadly, that phenotype was meant to be the other half of a weapons program but Scientist Anderson botched the late Scientist Herbert's original weirding module prototype beyond recognition.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: sadlerbw on 14 April 2017, 20:09:03
I've been wondering how a fight between this mech and a Vulpes would go. They both have double clan ERLLs as their primary and are fast for their size. They have different backup weapons, and the Vulpes can't jump, but has stealth armor, while the Gyr has reflec. I'm thinking the Gyr has the advantage, taking only half damage from the dual ER larges, but the Vulpes should have slightly better to-hit mods at range. The other thing that leans in the gyrfalcons favor is the huge IS XXL engine in the Vulpes.

Still, both are surprisingly similar mechs that do about the same job. They just picked very different 'flavors' along the way.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 14 April 2017, 20:11:18
The Gyrfalcon has a significant advantage in heat dissipation that will let it keep up better firepower over time.  I think that will be the deciding factor.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 15 April 2017, 02:51:01
Or screaming in classic super-villain fashion? "This cannot be!"

Like this chap here - https://youtu.be/LQSxOACu2gA?t=60

But the Gyrfalcon is a mean lil thing, and if played right, an absolute nightmare.  Its weird though that the Falcons with their four Totems seem to have gone for a very deliberate Long range/short range mix.  Both the Jade Hawk and the Eyrie are built to go KA-KAW MOTHER HUBBARD!!!!  Whilst punching and kicking you to death at point blank or closer range, whilst the Shrike and Gyrfalcon engage you when they are but a blip on the horizon.  (although i'm not too sure on the Shrike...Hellbie will you be doing a review on the big IMMA BURD! Mech of the Falcon totem range?)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kojak on 15 April 2017, 16:28:03
You know what I'd send to fight these, actually? The Scarabus 9T. It can run circles around it, and the combo of melee attacks and TAG-guided artillery will totally shred a Gyrfalcon.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 April 2017, 16:32:06
Given the change made to the rules with Homing artillery shells, you still would have to anticipate which direction it's likely to go.

Since Homing rounds deal all their damage to a single hit location, are they still considered an AoE attack for the purposes of Reflective Armor?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Firesprocket on 15 April 2017, 23:18:59
Since Homing rounds deal all their damage to a single hit location, are they still considered an AoE attack for the purposes of Reflective Armor?
I can't see why they wouldn't be.  Arrow IV homing rounds still do 5 damage to anything else located in the hex which would be AE.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Caedis Animus on 16 April 2017, 00:52:13
Actually, is reflective armor's AoE weakness also considered in Ammo Explosion AoEs and M-Pods, or is it artillery only?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 April 2017, 01:02:10
IIRC it's attacks that strike the entire hex.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 16 April 2017, 10:10:50
Damage from falls, physical attacks, moving through buildings, and area of effect weapons (such as artillery).  If the weapon has the AE tag on it, it deals double damage to Reflective Armor.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Caedis Animus on 16 April 2017, 10:35:54
But ammo explosions aren't weapons. But IIRC they still deal AE damage, at least under some special rule somewhere.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Terrace on 16 April 2017, 19:34:28
Ok, so check my math here.

-C3 Berserker with TSM activated. That's 40 damage swings. Count the double damage from Reflective Armor, and that Berserker will be outputting enough damage from it's Hatchet to kill a Gyrfalcon with one hit to the center torso, right?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 16 April 2017, 19:39:05
Ok, so check my math here.

-C3 Berserker with TSM activated. That's 40 damage swings. Count the double damage from Reflective Armor, and that Berserker will be outputting enough damage from it's Hatchet to kill a Gyrfalcon with one hit to the center torso, right?

It'd be a kill even without reflec. The existing Gyrfalcons all have no more than 39 armor and internal structure points in the center torso.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Terrace on 16 April 2017, 21:28:47
It'd be a kill even without reflec. The existing Gyrfalcons all have no more than 39 armor and internal structure points in the center torso.

Oh, my. And if it doesn't hit the center torso, something's getting lopped off?

Of course, if you manage to get a Berserker into melee range with a Gyrfalcon, either you've done something right, or your opponent has done something very, very wrong. Either way, why don't you punish him for it?  >:D
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 16 April 2017, 21:38:47
There's no greater argument in favor of the Gyrfalcon's armament than giant Lyran mechs wielding axes.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 April 2017, 22:00:25
Oh, my. And if it doesn't hit the center torso, something's getting lopped off?

Quite possibly multiple somethings are getting lopped off.  The arms have 15 points of armor with 9 points of structure while the side torsos have 16 armor and 13 structure.  A 40 point hit to an undamaged arm will transfer all the way to the center torso and strip more than half the armor off it.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: SteelRaven on 16 April 2017, 22:27:07
Hell, one unnoticed Urbanmech or Hollander will be the start of a very bad day for a Gyrfalcon.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 16 April 2017, 22:53:14
Neither of those things can one-shot a Gyrfalcon without doing it the old fashioned way, so neither of those things is particularly terrifying.  Once they've been identified, it's 7-hex jumps until long range, and then pick off with ER Larges.

Then again, that's basically the modus operandi for Gyrfalcons against anything, because they can do it reliably against 90% of the units in the game.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: SteelRaven on 16 April 2017, 23:15:42
I didn't say one shot it, just hurt it. Bad enough, the next mach's chances are looking aloot better.


 

 
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: wantec on 17 April 2017, 07:03:08
Ok, so check my math here.

-C3 Berserker with TSM activated. That's 40 damage swings. Count the double damage from Reflective Armor, and that Berserker will be outputting enough damage from it's Hatchet to kill a Gyrfalcon with one hit to the center torso, right?

Not quite. The double damage only works for the armor, not the internal structure too (unless it's composite IS, which it isn't in this case). Every point of damage from that 40-point TSM hatchet strike will cross off 2 points of armor, but only one point of IS. If you have an odd number of armor points it doesn't carry over to the IS. For example, 19 points of reflective armor and 5 points of IS will cost 10 points of physical damage. Also, 20 points of reflective armor and 5 points of IS will cost 10 points of physical damage as well.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: mbear on 17 April 2017, 08:15:12
This marks the first time anyone has said anything positive about a Mjolnir.

They'd be great on Jim Henson's Berzerker Babies cartoon.  ;) Though if they'd fitted Endo Steel or XL to free some weight and install a Supercharger, they'd be better.

I think that the Falcons deliberately breed warriors for the screaming phenotype.

Battlefields are loud, and you don't always remember your ear protection. So you'd need to scream and shout to get someone's attention. Noise Induced Hearing loss is a pain.

Of course, if you manage to get a Berserker into melee range with a Gyrfalcon, either you've done something right, or your opponent has done something very, very wrong. Either way, why don't you punish him for it?  >:D

It's a BattleTech Teachable Moment that you'll talk about for years. Like Hellbie dice and punching VTOLs.

But back on topic, the Rommel Howitzer would seem to be a good counter to this unit. You don't need to be too accurate, and even a nearby hit is going to inflict some damage. Speaking of which, if the artillery shell lands in the hex next to the Gyrfalcon, does the shell inflict double damage? I assume so because

Quote from: Tactical Operations, p. 285
In ground combat, Artillery Cannon attacks may be resolved normally or using the rules for indirect LRM fire (see p. 111, TW), but deliver damage to both the target’s hex and all adjacent hexes in accordance with the standard rules for artillery damage

And
Quote
Artillery Cannons may only use standard Artillery Cannon munitions. As area-effect weapons, Artillery Cannons cannot benefit from the use of a Targeting Computer.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 17 April 2017, 08:39:05
There's no greater argument in favor of the Gyrfalcon's armament than giant Lyran mechs wielding axes.

Dig up Aleks Hazen and draw him a picture explaining this, would you?  [madflame]

(Seriously, I'm not sure any moment in a BT/MW novel has infuriated me as much as that. There's NO WAY he's that stupid. You spent the entire book showing that he's a master tactician, expert Mechwarrior, etc.- and he allows a slower, smaller, shorter-ranged Mech to get an AXE KILL on him? Try that fight in Megamek as the Hatchetman, even the bot won't let you play that game with it.)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Terrace on 17 April 2017, 08:55:38
Dig up Aleks Hazen and draw him a picture explaining this, would you?  [madflame]

(Seriously, I'm not sure any moment in a BT/MW novel has infuriated me as much as that. There's NO WAY he's that stupid. You spent the entire book showing that he's a master tactician, expert Mechwarrior, etc.- and he allows a slower, smaller, shorter-ranged Mech to get an AXE KILL on him? Try that fight in Megamek as the Hatchetman, even the bot won't let you play that game with it.)

People can have moments of uncharacteristic stupidity for a variety of reasons. Maybe he was overconfident from riding a combat high. Maybe he was enraged to the point of stupidity by something the Hatchetman pilot said about his lineage. But I've never read that novel, so I can't say.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Empyrus on 17 April 2017, 09:16:41
Funny thing is that people are more demanding about fictional things than real things. If someone were to write WWII as a story, people would complain how unrealistic it is due to massive amount of stupidity and other stuff.

Considering how crazy Malvina is, Aleksandr letting his guard down at a crucial moment is kinda believable. The same crazy-gene...
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kidd on 17 April 2017, 10:36:14
That's war innit, one is not always on the favourable end of rock-paper-scissors. And high-performing people, especially those that enjoy challenges, do push their luck too far.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 17 April 2017, 11:29:03
Is it more foolish than the repeated instances of warships ramming one another in spite of the vastness of space?

The fact is, while one on one there is never ever ever a reason for a Gyrfalcon to close with a Hatchetman.  But in a larger battle, there can be.

One weakness of mechs like the Gyrfalcon and the Vapor Eagle and others have is that while they're invincible dualists, some times in a battle you need to take a mech down fast, and sniper mechs just don't have the concentrated punch to do that.  So if you need to kill some mech that's threatening to break your lines or finish off a damaged member of your star or lance, sometimes you do have to close in to ensure maximum accuracy, to draw fire away from a damaged comrade onto the probably undamaged sniper.  Now, its been forever since I read that book (which was it?  I'll go take another look) and I don't think Alex had a good reason, but that's not to say that there aren't good reasons in the context of a larger battle when your Gyrfalcon is the mech you have available to throw in at the last second to turn the tide, and being safe is no longer an option.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 17 April 2017, 11:32:10
That was Flight of the Falcon, I believe. (Pretty sure)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 17 April 2017, 12:03:43
Not quite. The double damage only works for the armor, not the internal structure too (unless it's composite IS, which it isn't in this case). Every point of damage from that 40-point TSM hatchet strike will cross off 2 points of armor, but only one point of IS. If you have an odd number of armor points it doesn't carry over to the IS. For example, 19 points of reflective armor and 5 points of IS will cost 10 points of physical damage. Also, 20 points of reflective armor and 5 points of IS will cost 10 points of physical damage as well.

The Gyrfalcon is still a medium mech.  It simply doesn't have enough IS to take a hatchet hit from a Berserker anywhere on its body: where ever it gets struck it will destroy the armor and IS.  With TSM active it will go through the adjacent location as well.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: sadlerbw on 17 April 2017, 12:50:41
I was futzing around in MegaMek this past weekend and decided to do a Dark Age Jade Falcon star against a star of Ghost Bears. I made sure there were a couple Gyrfalcon variants on the Falcon side. If I remember right (I was mostly using random stuff rolled from the 3145 RAT's) it was a Shrike, two Gyrfalcons and an Eyrie and something else vs. a Karhu, Arcas 2, Vulture Mk. III Prime, Beowulf IIC, and I think a viper. I tend to mess with the exact variants of Omni's so it's not all-primes, all-the-time, but don't remember exactly which ones I dropped in. I know the Karhu had a Gauss rifle though.

Now, the bot isn't exactly brilliant, but it did do a reasonable job of jumping the Gyrs into woods and trying to keep range open. Despite some juicy to-hit numbers, the Arcas and Beowulf didn't even bother shooting at the Gyrfalcon with reflective armor. I tried it once and it just wasn't worth it. I recall one round where the Arcas ended up two hexes away from the Gyr and shot at the Shrike 9 hexes away, even though the mods were worse. If you have the option, you just don't shoot at the stupid thing with lasers and PPC's.

The Vulture III Prime was more than happy to play with it though. It got beat up in the process, but the rain of missiles did about as good a job cleaning armor off the Gyr as the Gyr did taking apart the Vulture. Having four to-hit rolls helped keep things even, despite the hit mods tending to be in the Gyr's favor. Also, the Karhu sent a Gauss slug over to say hi, and it made one of the Gyr's arms very sad. The biggest problem was, on a battlefield with four other mechs, there wasn't as much opportunity to find a spot where SOMEONE wasn't reasonably close to you. Being able to shrug off the ERPPC and large pulse shots was very, very nice, but there were no shortage of LRMs and Gauss slugs that ended up doing the job just fine.

On the non-reflective Gyr, the Beowulf IIC was plenty happy to jump around with it and apply ER Pulse lasers to the affected area. It wasn't nearly as annoying as the version with reflective armor was because ERPPC's and ERLL's worked it over just fine when the range was kept open, and faster stuff like the Viper and Beowulf could keep close and trade pretty effectively with it.

It was just one fight, but I think the Gurfalcon's reputation held up well. I hated it and wanted it to die when fighting it, even with the Bot running it, so it must be doing SOMETHING right!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 17 April 2017, 12:57:42
When you say 'Erinyes', do you mean 'Eyrie', like the light Mech? Or 'Erinyes' as in the worst of the lot of Protomechs? (Or 'Erinyes', as in you threw a giant ****** chunk of rock on top of your opponent? :D )
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: sadlerbw on 17 April 2017, 13:17:46
Eyrie...as in I couldn't remember for sure and guessed!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: wantec on 17 April 2017, 15:07:07
The Gyrfalcon is still a medium mech.  It simply doesn't have enough IS to take a hatchet hit from a Berserker anywhere on its body: where ever it gets struck it will destroy the armor and IS.  With TSM active it will go through the adjacent location as well.
True, although my point was more that it's not as simple as double the damage. In the case of the Gyrfalcon, it takes 29 points of physical damage to the CT to core it. A hit from the TSM Berserker to say the RT or LT will take out the side torso, strip the armor on the CT, and 8 points of IS on the CT (assuming full armor). Not great, but not a one-hit kill unless you hit the CT, Head, or a rear torso.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 17 April 2017, 17:27:24
People can have moments of uncharacteristic stupidity for a variety of reasons. Maybe he was overconfident from riding a combat high. Maybe he was enraged to the point of stupidity by something the Hatchetman pilot said about his lineage. But I've never read that novel, so I can't say.

There's "moment of uncharacteristic stupidity".

And then there's checking to see if your weapon has jammed by pointing it at your face and pulling the trigger.  I'll let you guess which one this was closer to.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 17 April 2017, 17:44:17
Sounds like typical Falcon behavior, then.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Firesprocket on 17 April 2017, 23:05:18
(Or 'Erinyes', as in you threw a giant ****** chunk of rock on top of your opponent? :D )
That would seem be an equitable way to fight fire with fire.  Nuke it from orbit.  It is the only way to be sure.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 April 2017, 00:08:39
Hell, one unnoticed Urbanmech or Hollander will be the start of a very bad day for a Gyrfalcon.

You know, I just remembered that there's an Arrow IV variant of the Urbanmech...
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 18 April 2017, 09:51:23
True, Gyrfalcons don't stand up to Davy Crocketts all that well.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Sabelkatten on 18 April 2017, 13:03:34
True, Gyrfalcons don't stand up to Davy Crocketts all that well.
No, that double damage from AE weapons can really hurt at times... ^-^
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 18 April 2017, 16:52:38

I like a well-designed sniper, and the latest TROs are delivering quite a few good ones (the Wulfen, the aforementioned Vulpes, etc.).  In theory, this kind of out-ranging, highly mobile, and decently armored design should dominate, or at least be superior, on a realistic battlefield.

But BattleTech games usually do not deliver realistic battlefields.  Play areas (Circles of Equals?) are often only a little larger than the maximum range on the Gyrfalcon's weapons, limiting its ability to maneuver and keep the range open. And even if the play area is large (or rolling), modest terrain will block the LOS necessary to take advantage of the Gyrfalcon's extreme ranges.  A minimally observant and knowledgeable opponent seeing these kinds of direct-fire snipers in his opponent's force will neuter them before play starts by laying down some level 2+ hills and/or 3+ hex woods with his half of the mapsheets or terrain.

If BattleTech play was more realistic, I would use designs like the Gyrfalcon all the time.  But it's not, so for me, the Gyrfalcon and its kin, as much as I like the thinking that went into the design and fluff, are limited to niche play on large play areas with little terrain.

I'd also note that these exquisite, high-performance sniper designs can be pretty effectively countered in a BV-balanced game with fairly low-tech units.  For example, you can buy four Saladin hovertanks for almost the same BV as one Gyrfalcon.  On a terrain-less, rolling play area, the Saladins will gain five hexes on the Gyrfalcon each turn.  Unless the Gyrfalcon gets lucky hits and crits that kill a Saladin each turn (and it might with its LB 2-X cluster but still rarely), the Gyrfalcon will be facing multiple AC/20 shots in five or so turns.  And if there are some level 1 hills or woods that the Saladins can skirt to protect themselves while they advance -- or if the Saladins have access to armor-piercing or precision ammo -- then it becomes very hard for the Gyrfalcon to come out ahead.

Same goes for Pegasi, Drillsons, Eponas, and similar units... a high-BV, high-performance, melee mech (or artillery) is not necessary to counter a high-BV, high-performance sniper mech. 

(Of course, this holds true for mechs other than the Gyrfalcon.  Even a mobile, 3025-era, LRM boat like the Dervish could just be charged by the five or six Savannah Masters that could be purchased with its BV.)

But these kinds of vulnerabilities are something to consider before investing too heavily in these expensive, unfortunately niche mechs, IMO.

My 2 C-bills... YMMV...

Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: SCC on 18 April 2017, 19:18:53
If I wanted to kill one of these I think I'd take Centaur BA
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Empyrus on 18 April 2017, 19:27:17
If I wanted to kill one of these I think I'd take Centaur BA
That is actually pretty good idea. The Centaur has relatively short range but also low cost. All you need to do is to get a Centaur to an area and it will keep adjacent map sheets clear of Gyrfalcons.
I'm not sure it will actually be able to hit or kill a Gyrfalcon... but area-denial can be just as effective as actually hitting the enemy.

EDIT The Centaur can do 24 or 8 damage to the Gyrfalcon if it hits the Reflec armor, depending on whether the Centaur hits the Gyrfalcon's hex or adjacent hex. AE damage gets applied in 5-pts clusters, no? It will take time to kill a Gyrfalcon with this but it is sufficient damage it should work as an area denial tool.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 19 April 2017, 11:07:44
That was Flight of the Falcon, I believe. (Pretty sure)

I did re-read that passage (and I'm planning to re-read the book; I'd forgotten it was Victor Milan who wrote it) and it does explicitly describe his decision to close as a mistake, noting that staying back (not falling back, just not charging head long) would have brought sure victory.  We don't see from his view point in that moment, and Tara Campbell attributes it to a need to lead from the front as the remainder of his forces charge.

However, in the opening scene of the book, we she Alex chastise an elemental he is fighting for failing to see the value of tactical retreat, of keeping distance open.  Reckless charges aren't in his nature.  So why race in?  I will offer two rational reasons, and an extra half a human motivation.

In his previous battle, he had faced a massive artillery barrage, which the narrative notes that he skillfully avoided by rapidly closing with his enemy. His enemy had air superiority, and had just been reinforced by a force known to have many fighters of their own, so it was reasonable for him to fear either a renewed artillery attack or bombs, since his enemy had shown no honor and employed multiple traps.  Given that, ordering his lines into close combat was a prudent tactical move, despite the fact that his forces almost surely out ranged their opponents, and given his reflective armor, being the only one not to close ranks would have made him an extremely tempting target, making that a poor tactical decision. 

Alternatively, as I mentioned above, doing the long ranged dance is a safe way to win, but a slow way, and less than sure against an opponent who can break contact and fall back behind her own lines.  Sometimes, you can play the long game.  But, sometimes you need to win quickly.  Sometimes, you have a chance to bring down the skillful and charismatic leader of a force on the edge of breaking before it can be fully reinforced, and you have to take it, even if at great risk.  Had be brought Tara Campbell in her Hatchetman down, it might have broken the back of enemy resistance.  This is not an unlikely outcome, if he can close and still manage to use his jets to stay more than 30 meters away, or if he can simply blast that Hatchet off, since the Hatchetman isn't a tough mech.

Lastly, it is noteworthy that Tara Campbell in her Hatchetman had just recently put Alex Hazen's beloved sibkin in the hospital.  While I don't think it would be enough on its own to make him lose control, given the sound tactical reasons to close, it may have pushed him to close maybe just a bit faster and closer than he needed to.

And lastly, Tara's Hatchetman seems to be some sort of super Hatchetman, since it had stood up to Malvina's Shrike the day before.  I don't know if its got some sort of super armor, or if its actually a Berserker masquerading as a Hatchetman, or if its Hatchet is actually an Elvish hatchet, made in Gondolin for the wars with the Orcs, but I don't think it was just a regular old Hatchetman.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Empyrus on 19 April 2017, 11:22:48
I have vague recollection that Tara Campbell piloted an Ultra AC equipped Hatchetman, which would mean the 5D variant.
Autocannon it had for sure.
Also pretty sure it wasn't actually modified or anyhow special.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kidd on 19 April 2017, 12:04:10
I have vague recollection that Tara Campbell piloted an Ultra AC equipped Hatchetman, which would mean the 5D variant.
Autocannon it had for sure.
Also pretty sure it wasn't actually modified or anyhow special.
Plenty of mods that can be made without swapping out the Ultra AC. Off the top of my head, XXL Engine and modular armour would have given it more survivability than expected.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Empyrus on 19 April 2017, 12:09:38
My point was, there was nothing to indicate it was modified, or at least extensively.
Also, considering when the books were written and what kind of tech the units used, i would rule out anything terribly advanced (like XXL engines or modular armor that didn't even exist back then, i think). The Gyrfalcon was almost certainly the more advanced of the duo.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kojak on 19 April 2017, 21:07:25
No, that double damage from AE weapons can really hurt at times... ^-^

******, dude, you made me shoot scotch out of my nose, that burns like you wouldn't believe...
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 April 2017, 21:15:27
My point was, there was nothing to indicate it was modified, or at least extensively.
Also, considering when the books were written and what kind of tech the units used, i would rule out anything terribly advanced (like XXL engines or modular armor that didn't even exist back then, i think). The Gyrfalcon was almost certainly the more advanced of the duo.

I'm not sure about modular armor, but XXL engines were introduced in Max Tech so they were definitely around, just not something that was really utilized.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kidd on 19 April 2017, 22:43:51
My point was, there was nothing to indicate it was modified, or at least extensively.
Also, considering when the books were written and what kind of tech the units used, i would rule out anything terribly advanced (like XXL engines or modular armor that didn't even exist back then, i think). The Gyrfalcon was almost certainly the more advanced of the duo.
Well, because the tech specs weren't published at the time, it can be sort of retconned with gear that needn't have been mentioned in the text.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 19 April 2017, 23:05:55
And lastly, Tara's Hatchetman seems to be some sort of super Hatchetman, since it had stood up to Malvina's Shrike the day before.  I don't know if its got some sort of super armor, or if its actually a Berserker masquerading as a Hatchetman, or if its Hatchet is actually an Elvish hatchet, made in Gondolin for the wars with the Orcs, but I don't think it was just a regular old Hatchetman.

This may well be the funniest thing I've read today.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 21 April 2017, 11:24:27
******, dude, you made me shoot scotch out of my nose, that burns like you wouldn't believe...
That's probably how that crocket feels on the gyrfalcon's face.

.... Is throwing junk a physical attack, btw?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 21 April 2017, 12:04:27
.... Is throwing junk a physical attack, btw?

I think it is in Halo multiplayer matches. They call it something else though.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 21 April 2017, 12:31:16
Hellbie will you be doing the Shrike and Eyrie?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 21 April 2017, 12:41:59
Hellbie will you be doing the Shrike and Eyrie?

I honestly hadn't planned on it, but if people want me to I suppose I can. Eyrie shouldn't take long anyway with only the one version, Shrike shouldn't be too hard either. Just not this week, I'm buried at the office today (where ironically a MWDA Shrike is perched on top of my phone)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 21 April 2017, 15:11:24
I think you'd do them great justice :)  And there's no need to rush :)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Diamondshark on 21 April 2017, 20:49:20
Even worse, if it's shut down, it's now a target for battle armor swarming. Now, the Gyrfalcon isn't an Omnimech, so it isn't able to deliver the kids itself, but a spare RL10 or something similar would be a great delivery system- rush up, get in a few swipes from the APC's guns and unload the point, swarm the target while it's shut down the following turn, and even if it does start up again it's got a major problem. (Remember that the Falcons ended up with the Ice Hellion Afreet suit... if you're not familiar, its weapons suck but it can jump four hexes at a time. O HAI!)

You definitely wouldn't want to use this in a duel (well, maybe?), but as part of a team it could get pretty ugly. I'd be curious to see if having Inner Sphere-developed weapons give it any dishonor in the eyes of warriors or not, but the benefits probably outweigh the taint.

The Gyrfalcon with TSEMP is actually my absolute favorite medium duelist--two TSEMPs will do bad things to an enemy, often shutting them down; if they do not shut down, they'll have a hard time hitting back--if they do shut down, they automatically fail the PSR when you hit them with two ERLLs the next turn, meaning they have a harder time avoiding your next TSEMP shot, which continues the death spiral...

Long story short, it's maddeningly beautiful.  >:D
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 April 2017, 23:43:45
The Gyrfalcon 2 is a mech that I like and fits my style for cavalry play- even if I am not a JJ fan . . .

To me it takes the Huntsman H or Stooping Hawk C and uses new technology to extend their capabilities, and they are favorite mixed battle designs for me.  Not sure why a pair of cERLL are considered just for sniping since a pair of solid 10 point hits works in most eras.  I do grant it wants to keep out of typical short range, 5 hexes or less since lighter short range weapons are more likely to out do the damage of the ERLLs.

Instead of other autocannons, I wonder what a pair (to keep the visual) of Plasma Cannons would do for the design.  Your melting infantry, BA, armor and if you hit ASF you are giving them problems.  You can also toss on a few more DHS on the 2 if you go that route.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Bren on 28 December 2023, 07:09:56
Aleks is noted as having the two large lasers as usual, but using Ultra AC-5s in place of the usual autocannons. Where the weight came from for that is unknown.

Well, we finally got our answer -- along with new art!

EDIT: whoops ... I guess everyone (but me) got the answer 3+ years ago in Shrapnel Issue 2!
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 28 December 2023, 17:53:21
Apropos of nothing, it strikes me that the Gyrfalcon would be a useful AAA mech for formations that need a bit more speed (and/or jump capability) than a Rifleman or JagerMech provides.  Sure, LBX2s don’t provide a lot of clusters, but they and the cERLLs both have the range that’s so vital for good AAA, and the LBXs are still getting that cluster bonus.  Maybe not the best use of it, but useful nonetheless.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 29 December 2023, 05:31:08
The new Gyrfalcon looks GREAT! A vast improvement over the "I stole these laser barrels off a WarShip, they use to have NL-55's in them."

But, its also basically the same kind of look as the Hierofalcon, and the Jade Phoenix, and its lost some of its individuality. Assuming that a new Shrike is down the line I hope that looks different and keeps its lanky look rather than being an Angry Birb.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 31 December 2023, 01:46:44
I too liked the contrast between the Shrike/Gyrfalcon/Eyrie and the Ion Sparrow/Hierofalcon/Jade Phoenix designs. I also have an IWM version of this mech so I might be slightly biased.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Demiurge on 01 January 2024, 22:14:41
The new Gyrfalcon looks GREAT! A vast improvement over the "I stole these laser barrels off a WarShip, they use to have NL-55's in them."

But, its also basically the same kind of look as the Hierofalcon, and the Jade Phoenix, and its lost some of its individuality. Assuming that a new Shrike is down the line I hope that looks different and keeps its lanky look rather than being an Angry Birb.


Maybe I'm weird, but I remember the MWDA minis looking OK.

And then I took another look at them recently, and I was wrong.  They're bad.



So... CJF in Dark Age and WOB in the Jihad have aesthetically unified mech designs.  Is having aesthetically unified mech designs something that only bloodthirsty maniacs do for some reason?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: worktroll on 01 January 2024, 22:44:45
Possibly. It's like uniforms - the side that has massive hat brims, acres of fruit salad, silver trim, dedicated marching bands, and fancy weapons tend to lose against armies wearing what look like dung sacks weilding uninspired weapons. Because one side prioritised looks, the other prioritised logistics ;)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 January 2024, 23:04:00
And also the WOB in particular had significantly fewer different manufacturing sites than most other factions, so their equipment had a more uniform look.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Demiurge on 02 January 2024, 12:05:30
Given the way manufacturing worked in the Homeworld clans, I'm fine with their not being unified, faction-wide aesthetics or design tendencies because the designs didn't usually stay clan-specific for very long due to trials for the designs rights or manufacturing facilities.  Sure, there were a few indulgent totem designs here and there.  The IS clans switching to a higher percentage of idiosyncratic designs based around their own particular needs and doctrines does make a lot of sense.  I guess for the Bears it's being tough and RIP AND TEAR, for the Falcons it's looking like a bird, for the Wolves it's anything they can get, the Horses are trying to hybridize llamas and motorcycles or something, the Ravens have fallen in love with ferro-lamellor armor and it's terrifying, and the Foxes are after your money.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 03 January 2024, 09:09:09
I wasn't expecting to see THIS one come back to life!

Yeeeah, the Gyrfalcon is... I love most of the look to it. The big wings, the talon-ed feet, the raptor-head, it's all very pleasing from an 'of COURSE the Falcons would do something like this' perspective. It all just fits. And then the arms are... absurd. The long barrels on the Rifleman, Jagermech, etc. make some sense- an autocannon probably needs to have some length to the barrels, so that's fine. The lasers here though... the Zeus managed to make a large laser into a mere blister on the side of its torso, but this needs a pair of howitzer barrels to make it all work? There was no need for those guns to be that big- the Mech literally doesn't work as it stands, the barrels would constantly be dragging their tips in the dirt or clanking off the sides of obstacles. Any change that drops that lunacy for a sane solution is a positive one. (And lest I come across salty about the art, that was only following the path already laid out by the DA miniature- no issue there.

As to the antiaircraft role... god yes. Absolutely. Sing it from the rooftops. LB-2Xs backed by large lasers, AND the ability to rapidly move to positions with good arcs of fire (or get out of trouble if those fighters get pissy)? Is there a BETTER choice for the job? It's got a pretty thin armor shell at the end of the day, so it's not a frontline fighter the way the Jade Hawk is, so it's going to be hanging back in the rear lines to provide its sniper work anyway- easy then to flip those absurd-looking guns skyward to get rid of a pesky Shilone. Fantastic Mech in that regard,don't leave home without them.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: SteelRaven on 03 January 2024, 12:30:43
The arms never bothered me but I guess making them closer to the Blackjack rather than the Rifleman would work but I'm guessing the original intent was to invoke the latter. Could also once again be the case of WK intended the guns being something bigger the BT construction rules wouldn't allow so a compromise was made. It does perform the fire support role quite well regardless.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 January 2024, 16:21:44
I wasn't expecting to see THIS one come back to life!

Yeeeah, the Gyrfalcon is... I love most of the look to it. The big wings, the talon-ed feet, the raptor-head, it's all very pleasing from an 'of COURSE the Falcons would do something like this' perspective. It all just fits. And then the arms are... absurd. The long barrels on the Rifleman, Jagermech, etc. make some sense- an autocannon probably needs to have some length to the barrels, so that's fine. The lasers here though... the Zeus managed to make a large laser into a mere blister on the side of its torso, but this needs a pair of howitzer barrels to make it all work? There was no need for those guns to be that big- the Mech literally doesn't work as it stands, the barrels would constantly be dragging their tips in the dirt or clanking off the sides of obstacles. Any change that drops that lunacy for a sane solution is a positive one. (And lest I come across salty about the art, that was only following the path already laid out by the DA miniature- no issue there.

It gets worse when you think about the fact that the Zeus's ER Large Laser is 25% heavier and twice as bulky as the Gyrfalcon's.

The arms never bothered me but I guess making them closer to the Blackjack rather than the Rifleman would work but I'm guessing the original intent was to invoke the latter. Could also once again be the case of WK intended the guns being something bigger the BT construction rules wouldn't allow so a compromise was made. It does perform the fire support role quite well regardless.

IIRC, WK just designed the minis and then backfilled in stats for them.  Or didn't even do that much, in the case of minis that didn't get Unique stats with pilot cards.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 January 2024, 21:42:02
I am looking forward to this thing coming out in plastic simply b/c I was trying to figure out how to remove the falcon head and replace it with a wolf to make it more 'Anubis' style to be isorla in a Warden Wolf cluster.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Cannonshop on 03 January 2024, 21:45:55
I am looking forward to this thing coming out in plastic simply b/c I was trying to figure out how to remove the falcon head and replace it with a wolf to make it more 'Anubis' style to be isorla in a Warden Wolf cluster.

find a buddy with a 3d printer who can do CAD and make your own?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 January 2024, 23:03:03
I have a head, or several options- though I like the Rabid Coyote's head a lot- but I want to use it at all events.  Which means official mini.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 03 January 2024, 23:03:55
find a buddy with a 3d printer who can do CAD and make your own?

Which is where the discussion about printing reproduction bits starts and also needs to stop, please.  :police:
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 January 2024, 10:08:09
Which is where the discussion about printing reproduction bits starts and also needs to stop, please.  :police:

My apologies on that one.

Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Scotty on 04 January 2024, 14:49:18
The standard Gyrfalcon at first seems ideal for AA but then it had to go and use an armor that takes double damage from bombs.  Not ideal.

I'm a decent fan of the 5, ammo shortage and all.  The improvenent in short term burst damage (I don't recommend double ROF on numbers worse than about 7s) and the ability to get in and add the threat of a kick without putting yourself at a disadvantage.  I'd call it more aggressive than the Standard, which very much wants to stay at range and laugh at anything with a puny long range of 'only' 23 hexes.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 04 January 2024, 14:55:22
Yeah, the 2 strikes me as a better design than the original most of the time.  Unless you’re facing a pulse-TC boat or need that active probe for some reason.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 January 2024, 15:45:46
The Gyrfalcon 5 reminds me of an extremely mobile Rifleman.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MarauderD on 05 January 2024, 11:56:11
The Gyrfalcon 5 reminds me of an extremely mobile Rifleman.

I didn't think of it that way but you're on the money.  Maybe less durable than the up armored models, but speed is life?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 10 January 2024, 10:50:08
I didn't think of it that way but you're on the money.  Maybe less durable than the up armored models, but speed is life?

I'd touched on that in the article, yeah. With four ridiculously long-ranged guns the comparison is easy to make, but the Gyrfalcon pairs that range with the ability to move remarkably quickly (jump jets and partial wing!) to good firing positions- or escape danger. The armor is, like classic Rifleman models, kind of suspect (the reflective plating helps on the standard model a bit), so speed and range are your best protection. Heat is obviously a little less eye-poppingly bad than the RFL, leaving a large laser quiet every so often helps on that front, particularly if you're using the jets a lot.

There's definitely a family resemblance here- maybe not to the point that it's based on the Rifleman per se, but like the Jagermech there's a very noticeable role duplication and layout similarity to be appreciated. The Falcons simply added a new dynamic to the formula with that mobility- and it makes an otherwise very dangerous Mech into what I still believe is the single most dangerous and under-appreciated Mech of the Dark Age era. I say that even with the Falcon fan-hat taken off my head, a Gyrfalcon is a SCARY thing in the hands of a good pilot (and a smart player), and a force containing a few of them- backed by Eyries, Jade Hawks, etc.- becomes all but unstoppable if used right.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MarauderD on 10 January 2024, 11:11:18
I just primed my next 5 Falcon mechs--and now I"m wishing there was a Gyrfalcon in plastic....so many fun options to play with that....
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 10 January 2024, 12:51:46
I just primed my next 5 Falcon mechs--and now I"m wishing there was a Gyrfalcon in plastic....so many fun options to play with that....


It’s probably coming here soon if it’s in a Rec guide.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: BrianDavion on 10 January 2024, 16:53:11
Jade falcon star of Gyrfalcon, Ion Raptor, Jade Pheonix, Heirofalcon and jumping Thor please?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Bren on 10 January 2024, 19:16:25
Summoner is old news. A Catalyst-redesigned Jade Hawk please. :)

I will accept Grand Summoner as a consolation prize.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 January 2024, 21:25:15
How about a variant of the Thor, like the A or B?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 January 2024, 23:00:45
How about a variant of the Thor, like the A or B?

It's hard to go wrong with a Summoner/Thor.  I mean, to get a bad build you really have to concentrate on getting a bad build.  Gyrfalcon seems like a 'mech suited to the stereotype style of the Jade Falcons when they aren't being led by a psychotic headcase.

Though, to tell the truth, I'm not sold on the partial wings thing, it feels like a gimmick, regardless of how well it helps performance, and clearly it wasn't come up with by someone who's had to learn about aerodynamics, but then, the setting is ruled not by physics, but by Fasafiziks, which has less to do with mechanics or science, than the outright skateboard art of the Rule of Kewl.

("Looks Kewl, so we'll decide it works!!"  40K Orks have nothing on what passes for engineering in the Battletech setting-Orks, after all, still have to believe it works...)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: BrianDavion on 11 January 2024, 00:39:08
Summoner is old news. A Catalyst-redesigned Jade Hawk please. :)

I will accept Grand Summoner as a consolation prize.

well I figured we'd need at least ONE "repose" of a design we already had :)
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 13 January 2024, 06:16:27
Throw in a Flamberge 2 or 3 and then ya talking :D
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: marauder648 on 13 January 2024, 06:22:23
Jade falcon star of Gyrfalcon, Ion Raptor, Jade Pheonix, Heirofalcon and jumping Thor please?

Or a plastic Eyrie instead of the Thor.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: jklantern on 22 April 2024, 10:39:20
Since the Falcon Remnants have become a thing, I've been turning into more of a fan of the Falcons (which, let's face it, I've always been jealous of some of their toys).  The Gyrfalcon wasn't one I'd looked at much, but it has joined that group of "Small Bastard Mechs I love".
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 23 April 2024, 06:55:27
Since the Falcon Remnants have become a thing, I've been turning into more of a fan of the Falcons (which, let's face it, I've always been jealous of some of their toys).  The Gyrfalcon wasn't one I'd looked at much, but it has joined that group of "Small Bastard Mechs I love".

It's an odd duck (heh, bird pun) in that it wouldn't work in a Clan force a hundred years prior. It's not a 'one man army' machine- it'll do pretty well at dueling, with a smart pilot, but it's not really great at the role. As part of a combined force, it absolutely shines. But tell that to a hidebound 3050s Falcon, and they'll beat you to a pulp for even thinking such heresy.

It remains, as noted in the article, an absolute favorite to lean on (the 2 in particular) in the Dark Age era- I admit to some faction bias, but don't we all?
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: wantec on 24 April 2024, 11:13:22
At first glance the Gyrfalcon looks like it might not fit with the 3050s Falcons, but is it really that far out of line? The Gyrfalcon 3 is basically a Summoner D with UACs instead of ERMLs & MGs. The Gyrfalcon 2 is pretty similar to a pair of Kit Foxes Primes. As-is the Gyrfalcon 3 is similar to a Vapor Eagle 2 with longer-range secondaries. In a circle of equals it should be able to win whenever it can dictate the range. On a more crowded battlefield it should be fine as long as it's opponent can't get in close on it.
Title: Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
Post by: Wrangler on 25 April 2024, 05:48:56
I sort of see this maybe a little bit differently, not from a view of the entire universe. There's going to be duplication, but I believe what this is about is that these are replacements for legacy designs that aren't being produced. At least at the time when the Gyrfalcon and it's other falcon themed Mechs were introduced.

Remember the transfer to the Inner Sphere resulted in much of production signs being reduced and not having common designs available.  Especially during a Time for the Clan that much of the armed forces were reduced to a very small quantity of Mechs.