Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth

[JadeHellbringer]

Somehow, I had missed that about the Mogami...very interesting...

Ruger

I've never been entirely certain if the refit was 'we want to do this anyway, so let's use Mogami as a testbed', or if it was more 'turrets are borked too badly to fix, figure out Plan B'. The IJN wasn't building heavy cruisers anymore- they hadn't for well over a decade, so particularly by this point in the war building a new pair of aft mounts from scratch may have been too difficult/expensive/time consuming- the state of the ship's post-Midway damage isn't something I've ever seen in detail beyond the basics. But, essentially the idea was done on Japan's prior (and final) CA class, the Tone.

Tone and Mogami both ended up with similar setups, post-repair. All guns ended up in twin-mounts forward of the superstructure (four mounts on Tone, three on Mogami), with the aft end devoted entirely to flight operations. Where Mogami had a flight deck and operated wheeled aircraft (in theory at least? Not sure if she ever actually carried a full complement), the Tones were designed for scout floatplanes, allowing them to carry several at a time- and in doing so, not only provide scouting for the battle line, but to send out less planes from carriers for scouting as well- and thus save more for attack roles. It's a solid idea, really- the Tones ended up with their guns and torpedoes as secondary weapons to their floatplanes essentially, and it worked well, so building a third ship of the type out of a damaged ship made sense. The problem is that by the time Mogami was ready to return to service, Japan was a little low on carriers to begin with, and she herself was too small and cramped to operate a real carrier air group of her own.

(And again, I'll give no excuse nor justification to the Ise refit beyond 'what's the best way to ruin a dreadnought beyond pulling out the scuttles?')

[sadlerbw]

DDGs, with one 5"/64 mount are insufficient to generate a sustained all-weather direct support asset for a infantry battalion in an amphibious assault...

They did kinda, sorta try to get a better gun system for that purpose with the Zumwalts...but they turned the gun round into almost a guided missile, with a price to match, and the class basically got abandoned. They did try though!

[marauder648]

A trio of Imperial Russian Pre-Dreadnoughts on exercise in the Baltic.  They appear to be the Navarin in the lead, Imperator Nikolai I and an Admiral Ushakov class coast defence battleship coming up last.  These are probably sailing to their date with destiny at the Battle of Tsushima.



HMS Hood a modified Royal Soverign class battleship and what appears to be an Admiral Class battleship astern, possibly HMS Collingwood.





A Russian Peresvet class battleship.  These ships were an interesting attempt to make a 'fast' battleship.  Entirely home built and designed with both American and French influences the Peresvet's traded firepower and armour for speed.  4 x 10-inch guns and a large number of 6-inch guns made these ships what could be called a Second Class Battleship, bigger than the Armoured cruisers but smaller than the mainline battleships of the time.  For this they were meant to be good for 19 knots but could rarely exceed 18.  Their presumed performance caused a bit of a stir in the UK.  These ships sounded like they could outrun any RN battleship and outgun any armoured cruiser.

Perhaps fluffing the stats a bit the RN then demanded an answer which lead to the 6 strong Duncan class which were far more potent vessels.

[DoctorMonkey]

Dreadnought really was a giant leap forward - 2 1/2 times the armament of the average pre-Dreadnought and a lot prettier

[Istal_Devalis]

I am reminded that the Lexington and Saratoga originally had four turrets with twin 8" guns as self defense measures. We took them off, and replaced them with a heavier AA armament, when we figured out it was more important to have said better AA armament, and they didnt really need anti-ship guns.

[marauder648]

Dreadnought really was a giant leap forward - 2 1/2 times the armament of the average pre-Dreadnought and a lot prettier

The French Pre-Dreadnought Battleship Hoche mocks your requirement to be handsome!



Note how smooth the water is and how deep she's burying her bow in the near non existent waves.



Yes you can here her going hon hon hon!

[JadeHellbringer]

Dreadnought really was a giant leap forward - 2 1/2 times the armament of the average pre-Dreadnought and a lot prettier

And just as important, FASTER. Those newfangled turbine engines gave her a huge edge over prior ships. She really was a confluence of evolving technologies and ideas altogether on the same hull- the guns get the attention, but the engines were no less revolutionary (pardon the pun).

I am reminded that the Lexington and Saratoga originally had four turrets with twin 8" guns as self defense measures. We took them off, and replaced them with a heavier AA armament, when we figured out it was more important to have said better AA armament, and they didnt really need anti-ship guns.

They were indeed removed, because they were pretty useless at best- if your carrier is in a gun duel, you screwed up big-time. The Japanese answers, the Akagi and Kaga, had them in the hull in casemates, which made them wet but clear of the flight deck at least- the Lexingtons' guns weren't very good for their planes, particularly in the wood/fabric days. Their removal was wise. Lexington never did get the 5"/38 mounts installed before her loss, but Saratoga carried them in the same style as the Essex-class ships for the remainder of her career- I believe they're still aboard her at the bottom of Bikini Atoll, in fact. Lexington received quad-1.1" mounts in place of her big guns- whether there were plans to eventually fit her the way Saratoga was, or if she would have simply received quad-40mm mounts (as was the case with almost every other ship that had 1.1" mounts removed), I couldn't say.

Side note- the 1.1" was trash, the 40mm was an enormous improvement.

[marauder648]

And here's the Hoche's near sister, the Marceau.

[marauder648]

Re the Sara's 8-inchers they were removed and replaced with 5-inch guns, the 8-inchers IIRC were mounted at positions round Pearl Harbor.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Side note- the 1.1" was trash, the 40mm was an enormous improvement.

It had teething problems that could be ironed out...but they were pressed for time and 40mm was bigger and more firepower per shell.

[JadeHellbringer]

'You will jam every 20th round or so' is a pretty serious teething problem.  ^-^

That said, it was still better than the triple-25mm that Japan insisted on using all the way to the end of the war, which was so bad that it was near-criminal to protect warships with it. Other calibers were quite effective for them (the 3.9-inch used on the Akizukis in particular were excellent), but that 25mm was just a dog. How a navy knowing they'd be facing an enemy that would use carrier-based aircraft in a hypothetical war never tried to come up with a better weapon than this (when it showed its problems) will never cease to amaze me.

[DoctorMonkey]

'You will jam every 20th round or so' is a pretty serious teething problem.  ^-^

That said, it was still better than the triple-25mm that Japan insisted on using all the way to the end of the war, which was so bad that it was near-criminal to protect warships with it. Other calibers were quite effective for them (the 3.9-inch used on the Akizukis in particular were excellent), but that 25mm was just a dog. How a navy knowing they'd be facing an enemy that would use carrier-based aircraft in a hypothetical war never tried to come up with a better weapon than this (when it showed its problems) will never cease to amaze me.

Every round a 25mm kamikaze off to do their duty for the Emperor and overcoming any problems with their ardent fervour?

[ANS Kamas P81]

At the time Japan believed that luck was a legitimate thing and that good fortune would just smile on them.  And, one suckerpunch blow to the Americans eliminating the carriers would be enough that they wouldn't need to deal with them, so just stick with whatever and we'll win that way.

Man, if they'd had the luck and foresight to start turning out nothing BUT Akizukis it'd be a different ballgame.  If there was anything they really needed...

[Ruger]

They were indeed removed, because they were pretty useless at best- if your carrier is in a gun duel, you screwed up big-time. The Japanese answers, the Akagi and Kaga, had them in the hull in casemates, which made them wet but clear of the flight deck at least- the Lexingtons' guns weren't very good for their planes, particularly in the wood/fabric days. Their removal was wise. Lexington never did get the 5"/38 mounts installed before her loss, but Saratoga carried them in the same style as the Essex-class ships for the remainder of her career- I believe they're still aboard her at the bottom of Bikini Atoll, in fact. Lexington received quad-1.1" mounts in place of her big guns- whether there were plans to eventually fit her the way Saratoga was, or if she would have simply received quad-40mm mounts (as was the case with almost every other ship that had 1.1" mounts removed), I couldn't say.

Couple points of order:

1) IIRC, the Lexington's 8 inchers were never removed before she was sunk...

2) The Akagi and the Kaga had SOME of their 8 inchers in casemates, but they each had a four of them starting out in dual side by side double gun turrets on the middle flight deck forward (yes, as originally modified to carriers, they had three flight decks, or more appropriately, 1 flight deck and two flying off decks) to go with their twin hangers...the flying off decks (and the 8 inch turrets) were later removed, and the hangers and top flight deck were then lengthened...

Ruger

[Kidd]

At the time Japan believed that luck was a legitimate thing and that good fortune would just smile on them.  And, one suckerpunch blow to the Americans eliminating the carriers would be enough that they wouldn't need to deal with them, so just stick with whatever and we'll win that way.

More like High Command had some serious blinders on, and Admiral Yamamoto - their acknowledged greatest leader and also the most reluctant to go to war - lamented at length about the hawkishness of his superiors and his staff and subordinates. The Japanese entire plan for war was totally borked up and down from the objectives to the resources, and Yamamoto pointed this out, but for every objection he raised he was overruled. Finally he just did the best he could with what he had.

[DoctorMonkey]

for a bit of balance, I don't think the IJN was alone in going into WW2 without the technology or ships that in an ideal world they would have had:
- Germany was about 6 years away from having the fleet they wanted
- the RN used a lot of fairly useless light AAA and had had to compromise on the battleship armament on their most recent ships while the Fleet Air Arm was still struggling with some fairly rubbish aircraft
- the USN had more of a doctrine issue in the Atlantic early on, forgetting the hard learned lessons of WW1 and the Commonwealth navies before they joined

[JadeHellbringer]

Promise, Lexington didn't have 8-inchers aboard. She had them when the war started, but they were removed before Coral Sea and replaced with quad-1.1s. Photos of the ship sinking show the turrets aren't aboard anymore. (Upon search, actually most of the photos are obscured with smoke around the island. Crap.)

Image ended up being huge, but this is one of the last shots of the Lexington before the battle started, with no 8-inch mounts aboard.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/USS_Lexington_Coral_Sea_afternoon.jpg

[Wrangler]

Behold the Civil War era a timberclad gunboat USS Lexington from Civil War.  Humble ship pressed into service as converted into a gunboat at Cincinnati, Ohio. Its interesting ship, it and the USS Tyler was part of General Ulysses S. Grant's drive to seize strategic points in Kentucky and Tennessee. She had rather colorful career on the rivers, helping secure and battle the Confederacy!

Sadly i wasn't able find a actual picture of the ship, only paintings of her.


The next Lexington prior to the CV-2 was Patrol Ship, named USS Lexington II SP-705, whom doesn't have picture but a near ship.  She was small patrol ship dedicated to safeguarding submarine nets. She lost her name in 1918. Likely to the future Lexington Class Battlecruiser.

[Ruger]

Promise, Lexington didn't have 8-inchers aboard. She had them when the war started, but they were removed before Coral Sea and replaced with quad-1.1s. Photos of the ship sinking show the turrets aren't aboard anymore. (Upon search, actually most of the photos are obscured with smoke around the island. Crap.)

Crap...you're right. I had read that but forgot until you said this. The USS Saratoga had her 8 inchers removed in January 1942, and the twin 5 inch/38's added that February, but USS Lexington had her 8 inchers removed in March of 1942, but I guess the 5/38 double turrets weren't available for fitting at that time or something...

Ruger

[Wrangler]

This maybe of interest.

This was taken in May 1942.

[Kidd]

I really wonder about the health of the crews of the AAA mounted on the stack.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

My understanding was that they weren't particularly healthy places.  They tended to be load and filled with high-velocity air pollution during combat.

[worktroll]

The Aquila, Regia Marina carrier. Converted from the ocean liner Roma. Construction was abandoned in 1943, and scrapped in 1951.

W.

[JadeHellbringer]

Those hull lines are really disorienting, her stern looks like a bow on most ships.

[Wrangler]

I wonder if she would have made a difference for the Italian Navy? Aside from Japan, Axis had no active aircraft carriers protecting their surface assets.

[DoctorMonkey]

I wonder if she would have made a difference for the Italian Navy? Aside from Japan, Axis had no active aircraft carriers protecting their surface assets.

Not sure the Med is big enough for her to have made a great difference; a German carrier in the North Sea might have done

[Kidd]

She might well have provided the final push necessary to overthrow Malta. That would have turned the tide in Africa in favour of Rommel, probably permanently if Malta could be quickly reinforced and turned into a forward base for the Axis. Thats no small feat.

The African campaign would be another massive loss to the Allies. At the very least it would add a year to the war; the Allies would now have to invade Malta and then proceed to Africa. One more step in the road.

In turn that might mean the employment of the A-bombs first on German soil, 2 or even 3 weapons used. Perhaps the Japanese would then capitulate, perhaps not, but just for laughs, imagine if the Emperor sued for peace but a coup attempt by anti-Royalists did then occur, with hawkish factions in the army more powerful and undefeated than IRL, that might mean the invasion of Japan would've been rendered necessary...

Butterfly wings... or simply the stuff of fantasy :D

[JadeHellbringer]

Since the Italians lacked a tried and tested carrier aircraft, nor had any way of buying them from someone else (the Germans didn't either, Japan wasn't really in a position to send any, and the other carrier powers... yeah, no), she was a nice idea that had no chance of being a realistic combatant. She'd have had a small air group of questionable-value planes, and would have needed to rely heavily on air support from land bases- so why bother with a carrier in the first place?

As DoctorMonkey said, the Graf Zeppelin would have been a much more effective ship if she'd reached service- even then, the trial and error approach to learning to run carriers that the British, Americans, and Japanese had wasn't available to the Germans, who would have been stuck with learning on the fly- literally, a 'crash course' in CV operations.

[Weirdo]

I know warship aesthetics are often pretty subjective, but sometimes people just...was flipping through my copy of The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Destroyers Frigates & Submarines when I came across a bit where the author lamented the "bland" lines of the De Zeven Provinciën class, especially as compared to the more "elegant" Ticonderogas. ???

On a different note... pour some sugar on me! 8)

[Wrangler]

Former German Aircraft Carrier, Graf Zeppelin in 1947 prior to it's 2nd sinking by a Russia in a weapons test.



I didn't know she was suppose to been part of a two ship class. Her wreck was found in 2006 by a Polish survey vessel.