Author Topic: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth  (Read 205151 times)

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1020 on: 01 September 2018, 15:45:39 »
Handsome indeed, but certainly under-gunned...  :thumbsup:

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1021 on: 04 September 2018, 08:12:04 »
Handsome indeed, but certainly under-gunned...  :thumbsup:

Bismarck? Ohhhhhh no. Not SMARTLY gunned, but certainly not UNDERgunned.

The thing to remember is that German naval weapons tended to be pretty much the best in the world- they tended to be equivalent to a caliber larger on another nation's ships (for example, even the Royal Navy determined the 11-inch guns on the Nassau were equivalent in hitting power and range to the 12-inch guns on Dreadnought. This generally was the case throughout the battleship era when the Germans built a new gun). Bismarck's guns may have been 'mere' 15-inch guns, but the hitting power was determined to be roughly equivalent to the 16"/45 of the U.S. Navy's North Carolina class despite being a slightly smaller shell. They were also very noticeably more powerful than the famed 15"/42 used on most Royal Navy battleships of the inter-war era like the Queen Elizabeths or Hood.

Secondary weaponry is where Bismarck suffered, but even then she was a menace- just not a smart one. The 5.9-inch surface batteries were powerful weapons that were deadly against destroyers, and the ink spent on the famed German 88mm/4.1-inch flak gun is all very deserved, but having single-purpose secondary batteries was a sin the Germans should have known better than to commit to- while they had a large gap between their last real battleship (Baden) and Bismarck, they also had been building large warships again for ten years prior to Bismarck being laid down (the pocket battleships and Scharnhorsts), and there should have at least been some movement towards a dual-purpose secondary gun/primary destroyer gun in that time. As late as winter of 1944 though, the feasibility studies for the ridiculous 'H'-class still showed the split battery. It's not an unforgivable sin, but it's not a great look- it's a lot of weight and deck space taken up by guns that either sit silently during an air attack, or don't have any real impact in a surface battle. The damage there is mitigated by the fact that Bismarck wasn't paying more than lip service to the 35,000 ton limit, so who cares how heavy the ship gets? (Littorio and Yamato both had the same bad idea in the secondary batteries and the same lack of caring for the same reason, though Yamato ended up with a large reduction in the surface batteries early on)

Light AA, Bismarck could have probably been a little smarter as well, and it's worth noting that Tirpitz repeatedly added to her own light AA battery over time- I suspect that if Bismarck had survived to France she'd have done the same over her career (as so many capital ships did during the war). Tirpitz also ended up with torpedoes for a brief time, interestingly- a very rare thing for a WWII capital ship to have. That she had them only briefly suggests it wasn't a great experiment.

And lastly, fire control. The best guns in the world are meaningless if you can't hit the damned target, and Bismarck's fire control suite was excellent- while the radar was still fairly primitive (and disabled early in her great voyage), the optics for the main and secondary batteries was as good or better than just about any other capital ship afloat. (Which makes the decision by Adm. Lutjens to hold fire against the Hood as long as he did all the more baffling, but that's another discussion)

Could Bismarck have been a better design? Absolutely, 100%, there's no question that this was a retread of the Baden and it showed some of the same mistakes and WWI-era thinking that could have been improved on. But even with that in mind, Bismarck's broadside compares well to the Nagato or Colorado, and penetration power (if not weight of broadside) comes up better than the King George V. There are many things to be said about Bismarck, but 'undergunned' is not a term I'd ever use for that monster.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1022 on: 04 September 2018, 11:59:54 »
the ink spent on the famed German 88mm/4.1-inch flak gun is all very deserved
4.1-inch is 105mm, which the Bismarck did use in 8 twin mounts for AA.

88mm AA was used in WW1 for capital ship AA, and after that only on 1920s light cruisers. Bismarck did not carry any. The Deutschland class heavy cruisers were originally fitted with 88mm AA, but rearmed with 105mm AA before WW2.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1023 on: 04 September 2018, 12:04:22 »
Well that's what I get for tapping on my phone from (flawed) memory. I stand corrected and tip my cap to you. ;)

Also, here's Tirpitz because image thread.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1024 on: 04 September 2018, 12:16:46 »
10.5cm/65 SK C/33 in Twin Mount Dop.L. C/31 on Prinz Eugen:



The mount was designed such that it would autocompensate for the ship's rolling btw.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1025 on: 04 September 2018, 12:48:18 »
Was the gun armored?  Gunnery crew looked like it would have been terribly exposed!
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1026 on: 04 September 2018, 12:57:10 »
Probably splinter protection at best, anything larger than that will cause..'issues' for the gun crew and mounting. 

The Biz's biggest problem though was that her armour scheme, whilst very good was also at the same time very dated, and still harkened back to the layouts of the previous generation of ship with an eye towards fairly close range engagements and didn't take into account the development of all or nothing protection, instead spending a considerable amount of weight on armouring up a lot of hull space. 

Also some of the design choices were baffling, the result was that she was incredibly hard to sink, but quite easy to disable. And i'm not talking about the torpedo hit here.  She lost two turrets to one hit, her her electrical systems heavily disrupted and lost her primary fire control very quickly. 
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1027 on: 04 September 2018, 13:07:28 »
Was the gun armored?  Gunnery crew looked like it would have been terribly exposed!
Closeup:


Ammo feeding crew was off-mount though anyway:

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1028 on: 04 September 2018, 13:23:59 »
Yeah, those were a heavy splinter protection, enough to stop bomb fragments or strafing fighters but not direct bomb hits. The Germans never subscribed so much to the American-style 'all or nothing' armor system, but acknowledged that for stability's sake sometimes you couldn't give everything capital-scale armor. So these mounts weren't overly well-armored- the 5.9-inch mounts, however, were proofed against light cruiser-scale fire (since they were intended for anti-destroyer work, after all).

Marauder has the right of it though, Bismarck's armor was based on Baden, which in turn was based on German assumptions of what WWI naval warfare would look like- by the time that class was going into service Jutland (and to a lesser extent Dogger Bank) had shown that a lot of assumptions were pretty much useless. (Granted, that lesson was learned easier for them than it was for the British! Armor your magazines, dammit!). The result is that while the belt was elephant-hide thick, the deck was surprisingly thin on Baden and again on Bismarck- plunging fire could have been a major problem (which again questions why Lutjens held fire the way he did- it meant that he wasn't fighting back at a point when his ship was at its most vulnerable. Of course, as proven in the Denmark Straight, it was also where Hood was most vulnerable...)

Of course, the real flaw wasn't so much the armor, as iffy as it was, but the lack of any options when it came to the rudders and screws. Bismarck used a strange three-screw system that I've not really seen on most other designs, combined with dual rudders. There was no system to eject the rudders in the event of catastrophic damage to them, nor even really any good access to the system outside of a shipyard- the result was that when the one-in-a-million torpedo actually found home, there weren't many available options- the rudders were jammed, divers couldn't head over the side with explosives to clear them, and even if they had the three-screw system meant it would be much more difficult to maneuver the ship without the bad rudders (by comparison, the Iowa's four screws mean that turning the ship by running one side's props at power and reversing the other side would give her at least some control over the ship, if not an ideal situation. Bismarck would have struggled heavily if it had been an option- as it was, the rudder being jammed meant it was a useless attempt).

Funny, isn't it? If that torpedo hits a meter forward or aft of where it actually hit, Bismarck likely makes it to Brest for repairs, and the war in the Atlantic looks completely different from that point forward. The RAF likely would harass her during repairs, of course, but reunited with Prinz Eugen and with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on-hand as well... that's a squadron of ships that could take any convoy's escort and win. Remember that Lutjens prior work to the Bismarck operation was running those two battleships on successful raids during the winter, and the only times he was stymied was due to convoy escorts including old battleships like the Malaya and Resolution. And while they'd still be a threat, they'd also be likely overwhelmed by Bismarck and her friends.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1029 on: 04 September 2018, 13:44:44 »
Would that have really disrupted convoy traffic, or would it just have really motivated the US to sink her?
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1030 on: 04 September 2018, 13:45:25 »
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1031 on: 04 September 2018, 14:31:07 »
I think the Twin 105mm gun on the German ships WW2 is the coolest looking  weapon system. More then the Twin 5"/38 on the US ships.

The  Bismarck 2nd with the 12-150mm and the 16-105mm were more powerful then the US Fast Battleships but the 16" guns really could bring the pain well over the  Bismarck, almost a 60% greater throw weight.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1032 on: 04 September 2018, 14:31:48 »
Is QE going to pick up her air wing from US?
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1033 on: 04 September 2018, 15:04:15 »
Funny, isn't it? If that torpedo hits a meter forward or aft of where it actually hit, Bismarck likely makes it to Brest for
repairs, and the war in the Atlantic looks completely different from that point forward. The RAF likely would harass her during repairs, of course, but reunited with Prinz Eugen and with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on-hand as well... that's a squadron of ships that could take any convoy's escort and win.
At which point the Americans and British bombers go all-in on Bismarck's squadron, to the point the Germans find themselves fighting in the shade.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1034 on: 04 September 2018, 15:14:30 »
At which point the Americans and British bombers go all-in on Bismarck's squadron, to the point the Germans find themselves fighting in the shade.

This was early summer of 1941, so no Americans. The RAF was able to harass the three heavy ships at Brest post-Bismarck, but not do much beyond that. (It did prompt the plan to move the ships home via the Channel Dash, along with the loss of the Bismarck.)
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1035 on: 04 September 2018, 17:08:34 »
Is QE going to pick up her air wing from US?

Yes, they are going for live tests on the F35's and see how they work on the ship.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1036 on: 04 September 2018, 18:31:04 »
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1037 on: 04 September 2018, 19:09:14 »
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1038 on: 04 September 2018, 21:41:05 »
I think the Twin 105mm gun on the German ships WW2 is the coolest looking  weapon system. More then the Twin 5"/38 on the US ships.
Except those particular, the crew had to hand load the shells *outside* the mount. Where as on the twin 5" mount, everything is done inside a proper enclosure.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1039 on: 05 September 2018, 00:49:20 »
Except those particular, the crew had to hand load the shells *outside* the mount. Where as on the twin 5" mount, everything is done inside a proper enclosure.
During the war there were plans for a "C/38" version of the twin 105mm mount which would have been a fully enclosed turret, also with faster elevation and train rates, and which would have included ammunition feed hoists with automatic loading. It would also have weighed around 44 tons (not that different from the twin 5", actually on the low side). Was planned for the cancelled H Class battleships, two prototypes were finished.

The C/31 version in the pictures above was originally planned to be fitted with the 88mm.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1040 on: 05 September 2018, 01:01:27 »


While I don't know if they were any good, and their design does strike me as somewhat anachronistic even at the time, I do like the looks of the Sverdlorv class
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1041 on: 05 September 2018, 03:45:07 »
In reality the Bismarck chase is full of golden BBs.

1 - The Hood's hit (or magazine fire or what ever it was)
2 - The PoW's hit on the Bis's forward fuel tank (which in essence mission killed her)
3 - The torpedo hit on the rudders
4 - Loosing Anton and Bruno turrets to a single hit from the Rodney (IIRC the shell cut the hydralics for A and the blast of it going off jammed B)
5 - The hit very early on to the Bis main fire control from an 8-inch shell

And if I recall at Denmark Straight, the Germans held fire at first because they might have thought they were being attacked by cruisers and had misidentified by British ships coming at them and it was a case of 'no need to fire, they will break off...oh crap!'


and totally agree the Sverdlov's look very handsome, its the Italian design for you :D
« Last Edit: 05 September 2018, 03:46:55 by marauder648 »
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1042 on: 05 September 2018, 04:23:14 »

the looks of the Sverdlorv class
throwback much

I feel like I'm looking at some kind of WW2 armoured citadel

In reality the Bismarck chase is full of golden BBs.

yes, it feels like one of those BT games with half a dozen headshot-lifesupport-crits and triple-engine-crits a side

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1043 on: 05 September 2018, 04:55:04 »
First sentences from the Wikipedia entry:
Quote
The Sverdlov-class cruisers, Soviet designation Project 68bis, were the last conventional gun cruisers built for the Soviet Navy. They were built in the 1950s and were based on Russian, German, and Italian designs and concepts developed prior to the Second World War.

Now I am VERY surprised that the Sverdlov did not become the benchmark for efficient ship design...
« Last Edit: 05 September 2018, 05:04:37 by Elmoth »

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1044 on: 05 September 2018, 07:14:56 »
Going back to the Lizzy...why does she have two citadels?
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1045 on: 05 September 2018, 07:28:33 »
IIRC one bridge controls the ship, the other is for the air group.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1046 on: 05 September 2018, 07:54:21 »
Going back to the Lizzy...why does she have two citadels?
In a nutshell, she's a conventionally powered carrier not a nuc

The space in the middle would have been filled with trunking (both belowdecks and above) to direct the exhaust out, which is strictly unnecessary. Like an inverted Y shape rather than straight up and out. Look at the giant honking stack on USS Lexington CV2 for example.

Eliminating that creates lots more deck and internal space, but you still need an island position forward for steering and aft for flight ops - hence, two islands

It seems a novel solution yet apparently straightforward and duh-why-didnt-I-think-of-that-earlier. So much so that other navies are also mulling 2-island carriers now.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1047 on: 05 September 2018, 08:20:30 »
First sentences from the Wikipedia entry:
Now I am VERY surprised that the Sverdlov did not become the benchmark for efficient ship design...
Capability isn't always efficiency, even if it is well armed, well armored, and a good sea-keeper.  I'd also point out that this is the Russian navy, whose record across history is...well, about the only times they've ever won a major naval engagement they outnumbered their enemy approximately ten to one, or they were fighting the Turks.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1048 on: 05 September 2018, 08:35:19 »
Is QE going to pick up her air wing from US?
Nope, going over for trials with F-35B's though. All kinds of take off & landing trials using American F-35B's. I don't think they have enough aircraft ready for an air wing or two. When it does deploy, a US Marine unit will comprise about half of the aircraft on board for a while.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #1049 on: 05 September 2018, 09:00:08 »
In reality the Bismarck chase is full of golden BBs.

1 - The Hood's hit (or magazine fire or what ever it was)
2 - The PoW's hit on the Bis's forward fuel tank (which in essence mission killed her)
3 - The torpedo hit on the rudders
4 - Loosing Anton and Bruno turrets to a single hit from the Rodney (IIRC the shell cut the hydralics for A and the blast of it going off jammed B)
5 - The hit very early on to the Bis main fire control from an 8-inch shell

And if I recall at Denmark Straight, the Germans held fire at first because they might have thought they were being attacked by cruisers and had misidentified by British ships coming at them and it was a case of 'no need to fire, they will break off...oh crap!'


and totally agree the Sverdlov's look very handsome, its the Italian design for you :D

Really, most naval battles come down to strange occurrences being the key factor in the end. A couple of favorite examples from the Pacific War are the confusion over what the targets in the smoke were at Samar, causing the Northern Force to turn away from Taffy-3 despite the Yamato herself having a greater displacement than the entire American force, and... well, this one takes a few.

During the Second Battle of Guadalcanal, the four American destroyers leading the American formation were knocked out early and in quick succession by the Japanese leading formations, and blazed brightly. The leading battleship, South Dakota, turned to evade the burning wreckage- by making a few points to starboard. This moved the wrecks off to the ship's port side- and put South Dakota between the bright flames and the Japanese fleet, who saw the unmistakable outline of a modern battleship and gave the South Dakota a fierce beating as a result.

Washington, trailing her cousin, came upon the same wrecks of course, but turned a bit to PORT to avoid them, putting the fiery wreckage between the Japanese and Washington- and thus keeping their lookouts from seeing her (no radar on the Japanese ships, while both American battleships had it). As a result, no one realized there was a second American battleship in the area until the first 16-inch shells slammed into the battleship Kirishima a short time later. The Japanese force was forced to retreat, pursued by what might as well have been a vengeful ghost for all the good fighting back was doing. (Washington was only hit once by a five-inch shell, avoided the wild torpedo shots thrown into the night in her direction, and effectively won the battle alone following South Dakota being disabled)

So think of it this way. Washington turns to port, avoids detection, beats the hell out of Kirishima, sends the Japanese force fleeing into the night. If that doesn't happen- she gets hit like South Dakota did, doesn't get as lucky avoiding torpedoes as she and her cousin both actually did, etc.- then what? The Japanese force gets in a night of shelling Henderson Field, which likely means the Japanese convoy carrying badly-needed supplies can make it to the island the following day as well. The loss of Kirishima effectively ended the Japanese attempts to bombard the airfield with heavy guns- they may continue those efforts if they feel like they took the best the Americans could throw at them and won. Henderson continues to get beat on, the army forces on the island continue to be reinforced, and Guadalcanal eventually could fall. If THAT happens, Japan has control over the airfield they were building in the first place, can now hit northern Australia with bombing raids and cut off the sea channels connecting Australia to the Americans...

When you look at it that way, a slight turn to port instead of starboard by the Washington changed the entire Pacific War- a small decision that had enormous consequences.
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