UCT Combat Vehicles

[maxcarrion]

As per https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,82616.0.html and the Battlemech and Battle Armour Threads

Each Urban Combat Team of 64 BA suits is supported by 2 Battlemechs and 6 light vehicles (limited by a light vehicle bay).  I have some pre-conceptions about what the vehicles might look like but I am looking for designs/suggestions.

IS tech only, any era, no concerns with availability/politics etc.  Dropship mounted so expensive is acceptable where justifiable.  I see the vehicles as a light weight way of getting heavier equipment and mobility onto the field and likely to be more rear supporting units as they are less resilient to fire than mechs or BA.

I am somewhat expecting at least
1 x VTOL transport similar to a Tonbo - able to lift any vehicle or mech this would be capable of moving/recovering assets but would not be an armed combat vehicle - I do not need a design for this as Tonbo but lighter gets us there very easily
at least 1 Artillery piece to provide long range support with various munitions
at least 1 LRM armed piece to provide mostly SG LRMs to the TAG infantry
Beyond that - some details are in the various threads around expected missions and roles and possible designs and tactics.

[Daryk]

Goblins are a good starting point for this... I should have more time later to dredge up my links to those.

[AlphaMirage]

My recommendations are
Chaparral or Vali - These are the lightest self-propelled artilleries in the game, however you could also bring Mechanized Infantry with a Field Artillery piece.
LRM Hetzer - Wheeled, cheap, provides solid fire support for its mass (30xLRM), disadvantage frontal only but that's not terrible. LRM Goblin is also good but has less missiles.
Light SRM Carrier - 30xSRMs, can use Special Munitions, wheeled, cheap, devastating fire.

After that depends on whether you want IFVs (Turhan), medium tanks (Myrmidon), or self-propelled guns (Hetzer, bonus if you can swap the AC/20 for a Thunderbolt-20 for double the range with the same power)

[Daryk]

The reason to start with a Goblin chassis is that 45 tons is only 3 crew (where 50 is 4).

[maxcarrion]

Yeah, very much in this sort of area.

I think Goblins are an excellent militia infantry support tank but I think since we are bringing BA and are space mobile we can probably get something... upgraded?

Similarly, Hetzers and SRM carriers are likely to be what the militias are bringing for city fighting, can we do more with FCE/SFE/advanced tech/bigger budgets - we've committed to a dedicated dropship we don't need to be cheap with what we load into it.

The Chaparral is pretty close to ideal for an AIV platform I should think, especially the ER variant as it has some decent self defense if it gets caught by flankers.  Maybe it's worth putting it on wheels for an Urban unit?

I think Myrmidon's are one of the best MBT designs in canon, I'm not sure it's right for urban combat though.

Now the Turhan.... that's got potential - literally a high tech urban combat IFV with a 5 ton infantry bay.  We can fit light and medium BA squads into that bay.  A little rejigging maybe but getting there

[Daryk]

When I get around to SAW, I'll be starting with a fusion-powered Goblin... ;)

[maxcarrion]

Thinking about what 6 vehicles a UCT might bring I think something like

Non Combat
1x 50t heavy lift VTOL (Tonbo but lighter) - this would allow resupply to a secure FOB, rapid redeployment, Mech/Vehicle recovery etc.
1 x 50t Drone Carrier (Hi-Scout but lighter) - expendable mobile recon assets with light unarmed tracked & vtol drones.

Indirect Fire
1 x Arrow 4 (Chaparral ish)
1 x LRM (upgraded Light LRM carrier?)

Close Support
vehicles advancing directly behind the mechs/BA for some purpose.  Turhan, upgraded goblin.  What would advancing force need?  Resupply?  Respite?  Reposition? Direct fire? Electronics? Medivac? AAA?

[Daryk]

Here's an initial stab at a fusion Goblin.  The two tons of Infantry capacity allow it to carry 4 PA(L) or two squads of Conventional Infantry.

Code: [Select]

Fusion Goblin

Mass: 45 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F-E
Production Year: 0
Dry Cost: 2,196,750 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2,312,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 864

Power Plant:  180 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  Snub-Nose PPC
    2  MML-3s
    2  Light Machine Guns
    1  Infantry Compartment (2.0 tons)
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      25 points                4.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                180                      10.50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         2.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 192                 10.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     51       
                                          Left/Right   36/36       
                                              Turret     38       
                                                Rear     31       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snub-Nose PPC                                T         10        1         6.00
2 MML-3s                                     T         4         2         3.00
2 Light Machine Guns                         T         0         2         1.00
Infantry Compartment (2.0 tons)              BD        0         1         2.00
@MML-3 (LRM) (40)                            BD        -         0         1.00
@MML-3 (SRM) (33)                            BD        -         0         1.00
@MML-3 (LRM Smoke) (40)                      BD        -         0         1.00
@LMG (1/2) (100)                             BD        -         0         0.50
@MML-3 (SRM Inferno) (33)                    BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 9
4t         2       2       1       0      2     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: TUR(2/2/1)

[truetanker]

If you need an Artillery but don't want to lose a bay, try a TAV-2 Angel...

TT

[Daryk]

In a city, BA Tube Artillery is probably good enough... ;)

[truetanker]

Big bucks and 3075 Prototype rules...

Unless they are AU.

TT

[Daryk]

The OP said basically no restrictions except for "IS only", last I checked... ;)

[truetanker]

Eee...

Saladin, Saracen and Scimitar variants...

Clan refit Saladin could also be s variant of the OG Saladin.

TT

[AlphaMirage]

Eee...

Saladin, Saracen and Scimitar variants...

Clan refit Saladin could also be s variant of the OG Saladin.

TT

Hovertanks are far to vulnerable to motive hits (Check out my Point Barrow's Guide, link in sig below) and cannot use their speed advantage in a city.

I present the OP the following

UCV-X Omnitank
Mass: 45 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 225 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     1 Anti-Missile System
     8.5 tons of pod space

Code: [Select]

Type: UCV-X
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 45

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  4.5
Engine                        225 Fusion             15
Cruising MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  2.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.0
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    158                     8

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   5         40   
     R/L Side               5/5      31/31   
     Rear                    5         25   
     Turret                  5         31   

Fixed Equipment
Location                      Fixed               Tonnage
Body                          Anti-Missile System Ammo  1.0
Front                         Anti-Missile System   0.5
Body                          Infantry              4.0

Prime Configuration
Weapons
and Ammo                        Location    Tonnage   
Vehicular Grenade Launcher        Rear        0.5     
MagShot                           Left        0.5     
MagShot                          Right        0.5     
Magshot Gauss Rifle Ammo (50)     Body        1.0     
Smoke Grenades (1)                Body        0.0     
2 Light PPCs                     Turret       6.0     

Alternate Configuration A
Weapons
and Ammo                        Location    Tonnage   
Vehicular Grenade Launcher        Rear        0.5     
Flamer (Vehicle)                           Left        0.5     
Flamer (Vehicle)                         Right        0.5     
Vehicle Flamer Ammo (20)     Body        1.0     
Incendiary Grenades (1)                Body        0.0     
Snub Nose PPC                     Turret       6.0

Alternate Configuration B     
Weapons
and Ammo                        Location    Tonnage   
Vehicular Grenade Launcher        Rear        0.5     
Machine Gun                           Left        0.5     
Machine Gun                         Right        0.5     
Machine Gun Ammo (100)     Body        0.5     
Incendiary Grenades (1)                Body        0.0     
Large Laser           Turret            5.0
Rocket Launcher 20     Turret     1.5

Alternate Configuration C
Weapons
and Ammo                        Location    Tonnage   
Vehicular Grenade Launcher        Rear        0.5     
Smoke Grenades (1)                Body        0.0     
MRM-20 Ammo (12)    Body     1.0
MRM-20           Turret           7.0

The UCV-X has a 4 ton troop bay, enough for a standard IS squad plus the external mounts (for a total of 10 just from that). An Anti Missile System protects the front against those pesky SRM motive hits.
There are side and rear weapons to soak up flank critical hits and protect from light opposition, the rear grenade dispensers can cover dismounting infantry. The absence of (or ignoring) a flanking threat allows that mass be used in the turret like in Configuration C with an MRM-20/LRM-15 (or MM-4/TBOLT-10 but a single ton of ammo won't be much use IMO).
Wheeled vehicles get a speed boost on roads but suffer a motive check penalty (though not as bad as hovers) and cannot go through rough or lightly wooded terrain. Thus tracks are the order of the day, I've put as much armor as I can manage while packing a decent one or two medium weapons in the turret.

[Retry]

In a city, BA Tube Artillery is probably good enough... ;)

Probably, but he's already selected what his BA company is going to consist of and it doesn't include BA tube arty.

[maxcarrion]

@Retry - absolutely nothing is set in stone, I have no experience with BA tube artillery and didn't really consider it but I am open to considering it's inclusion, either as a replacement for a vehicle based system or in addition to it.

For me the inclusion of at least 1 artillery piece is a no brainer as it fills multiple roles that compliment conventional forces.

Air Defence - ADA arrow and artillery flak provides a much larger air defense threat bubble than direct fire weapons, the mere presence of a Chaparral means opposition ADF/droppers need to take things more seriously

Threat Range/massed troops - With artillery nearby no one is completely safe, simply detecting troops with recon units or drones is sufficient to put it under threat a landed overlord unloading cargo is in mortal danger if even a single artillery piece is within firing range and cannot deal with the threat itself.

Rapid support/area denial - pressure that can switch from left flank to right flank even if it is multiple map sheets in a single turn, can deny movement lanes to enemy forces (Thunder/Smoke even just the threat of HE).  A single BA squad with TAG can take out armoured vehicles with ease with Homing Arrows incoming to the general area.

I don't know if BA Tubes can manage all that (I don't know the rules for them at all well), is it worth bringing both?

[maxcarrion]

If you need an Artillery but don't want to lose a bay, try a TAV-2 Angel...

TT

Is there a reason you keep pushing Thumpers?  I got into Arrows over a decade ago and sort of appreciate Long Toms occasionally but I've never really given Thumpers a fair shake, I tend to go to my familiar Arrows for smaller artillery, why would I bring one over an Arrow launcher?

@AlphaMirage - I'm liking the UCV-X, enough space for a squad of BA, tough, fast, I think the AMS as standard is on point.  I'm not convinced on some of the weapon choices, for example the twin LPPCs - with their minimum range and the confines of urban fighting I might be more inclined towards, say, twin ERML.  Similarly, the hull mounted Magshots feel like an anti infantry measure but IIRC Magshots don't have burst fire.

Is it worth considering Wheeled?  Or maybe XL Fussion?  I think XL Fussion could bring you up to 16T of pod space which could might be worth the cost?

[Daryk]

Thumpers have a huge logistical advantage: 20 rounds per ton.  They also outrange Snipers and Arrow IVs.

[AlphaMirage]

Is there a reason you keep pushing Thumpers?  I got into Arrows over a decade ago and sort of appreciate Long Toms occasionally but I've never really given Thumpers a fair shake, I tend to go to my familiar Arrows for smaller artillery, why would I bring one over an Arrow launcher?

@AlphaMirage - I'm liking the UCV-X, enough space for a squad of BA, tough, fast, I think the AMS as standard is on point.  I'm not convinced on some of the weapon choices, for example the twin LPPCs - with their minimum range and the confines of urban fighting I might be more inclined towards, say, twin ERML.  Similarly, the hull mounted Magshots feel like an anti infantry measure but IIRC Magshots don't have burst fire.

Is it worth considering Wheeled?  Or maybe XL Fusion?  I think XL Fusion could bring you up to 16T of pod space which could might be worth the cost?

Well other configurations do have machine guns and flamers but so do your infantry. I'd even say additional AMS, A, B, or even M-pods plus VGL are valid. The side guns are there as crit padders. If you don't have side weapons it is far more likely you will suffer an engine crit from a side shot (remember the two hexes on either side of a tank are side hits and 8 is a possible TAC, if you find an invalid crit it goes up in severity).

I wouldn't go XL because engine and motive hits are the bane of vehicles and I wouldn't want to lose all that value due to some lucky SRM hit. This is also why its a 5/8 compared to a 4/6 as it can survive some motive strikes and still keep pace. If I did use an XL fusion engine in a wheeled vehicle I'd put some of that savings into an armored motive system (giving it the resilience of tracks), then either upgrade the turret to carry an LBX-10, add limited amphibious capabilities to ford rivers, or add more armor (possibly even changing it to reactive).

I wouldn't go ERML (but it's valid, omni-tank and all) because the minimums should be covered by infantry. However, few infantry weapons can project out to 18 hexes so the IFV is there to provide long range stand-off against hostile infantry, particularly enemy Battle Armor, and overwatch against hostile vehicles. Fighting against vehicles and infantry incentivizes more but less powerful hits due to the infantry's divisors and hit tables favoring motive damage.

[Daryk]

An XL would probably be OK on your Artillery vehicle (if you use one).  If you want light and precise AOE weapons, 'Mech Mortar-1s are an option.

[truetanker]

Arrows have three modes, Homing, FASCAM and Standard, which includes Smoke, Flare and Nuclear options.

Thumpers carry the same, but also four times the amount of ammo,  and there's the added effect of not being shot down by any form of AMS or Point Defense System.

Straight up janktify pounding an opponent to dust is satisfying.

Plus splash damage is lower than an Arrow strike, otoh you can keep collateral damage threshold down.

TT

[AlphaMirage]

Arrow IV cannot be shot down by point defense either and homing has no collateral damage. That said this is my preferred type of Thumper Carrier give the gold plated treatment (mine are typically slower, standard, and ICE). Mounting the cannon in the rear allows it to avoid counter battery fire more easily. All for an easy million c-bills.

Warthog Thumper Carrier
Mass: 40 tons
Movement Type: Wheeled
Power Plant: 180 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     1 Thumper
Cost: 1,029,600 C-bills

Code: [Select]

Type: Warthog
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: Wheeled
Tonnage: 40
Battle Value: 370

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    4
Engine                        180 Fusion           10.5
Cruising MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    89                    4.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   4         28   
     R/L Side               4/4      22/22   
     Rear                    4         17   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
Trailer Hitch           Rear        0.0     
Thumper                 Rear        15.0   
Thumper Ammo (80)       Body        4.0     

[Charistoph]

What do you mean by "no collateral damage"?

Sure, it doesn't do Damage outside the Hex it hits, but it will do AOE Damage to anything else that may be in the Hex, like just-dismounted Battle Armor.

[AlphaMirage]

What do you mean by "no collateral damage"?

Sure, it doesn't do Damage outside the Hex it hits, but it will do AOE Damage to anything else that may be in the Hex, like just-dismounted Battle Armor.

Do you call artillery on your own guys?

Be out of the hex before the off-board artillery phase, you know its coming, you know its targeted (since TAGing occurs in the movement phase). The Arrow IV does 20 points of focused damage and 5 points in the same hex. A Copperhead Thumper does 5 and 5 as well (since it uses the same rules as a homing Arrow IV).

[maxcarrion]

If we want to go really nuts you can squeeze 2 Thumpers onto a 50T FCE, give it 3/5 wheeled movement and have enough room for 60 rounds and 3t of armour.

A thumper can't push out damage at the same rate as an Arrow with it's lower damage per shot, but 2 thumpers....

Is that excessive? It sacrifices a lot, no turret, no secondaries, little armour, poor speed.  But it does bring the boom.

[maxcarrion]

I've put together a design for a missile carrier, primarily intended for indirect fire support using the infantry TAG systems for guidance the UCT MC uses MML launchers which provide it with a brutal up close punch when required and an incredible ability to level buildings rapidly with a close range alpha strike against buildings of 64 damage per salvo.

Code: [Select]

UCT Missile Carrier UCT-MC

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Wheeled
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 0
Dry Cost: 4,525,000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 4,824,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,010

Power Plant:  180 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    3  MML-9s
    2  ER Medium Lasers
    1 Unknown CASE
    1  Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      25 points                5.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             180                       5.50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         2.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    2.00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 178                  9.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     43       
                                          Left/Right   35/35       
                                              Turret     36       
                                                Rear     29       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 ER Medium Lasers                           T         10        2         2.00
3 MML-9s                                     T         15        3        18.00
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0.50
Anti-Missile System                          BD        1         1         0.50
@MML-9 (LRM Semi-G) (39)                     BD        -         0         3.00
@MML-9 (SRM) (11)                            BD        -         0         1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 10
4w         4       4       2       0      2     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: CASE, AMS, TUR(4/4/2, SRM 3/2/2, LRM 3/2/2, IF 3/2/2), SRM 3/1/0, LRM 0/1/2, IF 2



[Daryk]

Arrow IV cannot be shot down by point defense either...
*snip*

How so?  AMS can shoot down Capital Missiles and Thunderbolt-20s.  ???

[AlphaMirage]

How so?  AMS can shoot down Capital Missiles and Thunderbolt-20s.  ???

The AMS vs TBOLT is it's biggest and saddest weakness. AMS can intercept Arrow 4 in space but it also takes 4 of them. The same is true of other Capital missiles but again only in space.

[Cannonshop]

Is there a reason you keep pushing Thumpers?  I got into Arrows over a decade ago and sort of appreciate Long Toms occasionally but I've never really given Thumpers a fair shake, I tend to go to my familiar Arrows for smaller artillery, why would I bring one over an Arrow launcher?

20 round/ton, vs  arrow's 5/ton, means you can create and maintain 'beaten zones' continuously for about four times as long, which can be damned useful for controlling an opponent's movement options even with the lower damage output.  The lower damage output also lowers the risk if you're using artillery to screen your advance, or cover a retreat.  (it's less catastrophic if a drift hits near your own guys.)

 the thumper can keep firing four times as long per ton of ammunition, this also gives you better excuses for taking those low-margin shots instead of waiting until the enemy's already overrun your lead elements.

Basically, the reason to take thumper, is a matter of endurance and role.  Arrow is what you want to take out assault 'mechs fast, Thumper is what you want if you're using light arty for other tasks, or if you need continuous fire (or want it) on the same weight chassis.

further, it takes a full ton of arrow to register a hex (five shots), it takes 1/4 ton of thumper to do the same thing, this tends to be significant if you're working a choke-point on the map or three, but the scenario didn't let you 'choose' those key hexes before play for pre-registered fire.

[Daryk]

The AMS vs TBOLT is it's biggest and saddest weakness. AMS can intercept Arrow 4 in space but it also takes 4 of them. The same is true of other Capital missiles but again only in space.

Is there a page reference for that?  I've been scouring TacOps and Tech Manual with no joy...