Silver Bullet Gauss status?

[Charistoph]

Out of curiosity, and in regards to a few potential possible fan design opportunities (don't bring those here), what is the status of the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle?

Has it been Standardized, and if so, at what point?

[Sartris]

standard, common tech as of 3080. still rare on canon designs but that will increase over time

[Charistoph]

Interesting.  Where can I find when something changes its rules status?

[Sartris]

RS: 3145 New Tech New Upgrades has a short version. IO: Alternate Eras has the big ole table.

[Charistoph]

Ah.

Off hand, it would be nice if that was listed in the book the rules for the equipment were in.  But I guess that's for when the next reformat happens.

[MarauderD]

standard, common tech as of 3080. still rare on canon designs but that will increase over time

Off the top of my head I can only think of the Carronade and the Marauder 11D.  Must be a couple more that I'm fogetting.....

[Sartris]

Standard (post 3080)
---------
Challenger XV
Rifleman 7G
Marauder 9D
Orochi 3K
Pollux II
Claymore V3

Experimental (pre 3080)
-------------
Patton SB
Regulator (Alan)
Banshee 11X
Huron Warrior RX4
Grigori OS
Emperor 6ME
Wolf Trap 2X
Challenger XVc
Claymore Interceptor

[Jal Phoenix]

Bear in mind that the rules as written have it deliver damage in five point groups instead of single point like LB-X autocannons. Combined with its weigh, that makes the SB Gauss less useful than an LRM 15. Or pair of them.

[Fat Guy]

Bear in mind that the rules as written have it deliver damage in five point groups instead of single point like LB-X autocannons.

Tac Ops page 127 says otherwise.

[Daryk]

That's TacOps:AUE for those following along at home... ;)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Bear in mind that the rules as written have it deliver damage in five point groups instead of single point like LB-X autocannons. Combined with its weigh, that makes the SB Gauss less useful than an LRM 15. Or pair of them.

SB Gauss deals damage exactly the same way as LB-X cluster munitions.  You're probably thinking of HAGs.

[BATTLEMASTER]

I wish the silver bullet was written as an alternate ammunition type for the regular Gauss rifle instead of a whole separate weapon system.  That it's a separate weapon at all never made sense to me 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

According to Cray, he designed it as a different ammo type for standard Gauss Rifles, but it was rejected and turned into a unique weapon instead.

[Jal Phoenix]

SB Gauss deals damage exactly the same way as LB-X cluster munitions.  You're probably thinking of HAGs.

No, I'm just remembering its original rule set from Unbound, probably as a result of having gone through that book recently. I forgot it had changed, due to not ever having used it in a game. I need top play more. Carry on, then!

[Luciora]

Unbound introduced alot of stuff just making it into mainstream use now.   All very much changed from how it was originally presented.

According to Cray, he designed it as a different ammo type for standard Gauss Rifles, but it was rejected and turned into a unique weapon instead.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Unbound is one of the books that I know exists but have never actually had a chance to read.  I guess Cray was talking about updating it for TacOps.

[Jal Phoenix]

Unbound is one of the books that I know exists but have never actually had a chance to read.

It's pretty straightforward. No real twists or surprises as an adventure. I liked it because it was more high tech than BattleTech had ever been at the time, and I like how some of its more far out stuff was tied back into the narrative in the Jihad. It's worth checking out.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If I ever find a copy.

[Sartris]

It’s one of the reasonably priced items on the secondary market

[Luciora]

There is also Techmanual and Maximum Tech that have the base Unbound rulesets as well.

[Col Toda]

It is a nice niche weapon before 3095 . Tends to slowly get replaced HAG afterwards. 

[mbear]

I wish the silver bullet was written as an alternate ammunition type for the regular Gauss rifle instead of a whole separate weapon system.  That it's a separate weapon at all never made sense to me 

Speaking of Unbound, that's exactly how it was presented in that product. SB gauss rifle rounds were just "cluster rounds" for the Gauss Rifle. I think there was a small chance of the round exploding in the gun, but it's been a while since I read Unbound so I'm probably wrong.

[Starfury]

The Silver Bullet Gauss, or as I like to call it the LB-15X, is a great weapon. I'd love to see an Alacorn or Thunder Hawk variant with three of them...

[Daryk]

Get thee to the Design Forum then! ;D

[Retry]

I've seen people refit Clan 'Mechs with SBGRs, even with access to HAGs, simply due to its ability to project a sheer quantity of LB-X pellets at long range.  It fills a niche even Clan stuff can't quite fill.

Yeah, it's a bit of a shame that the Silver Bullet ammo option was scrapped for regular gauss rifles, but then again autocannons get a rough enough time already without a weapon crowding out the only truly good autocannon type (LB-X's).

[Col Toda]

With the advent of Ferro Laminar  armor it gets phased out with Hyper Assault Gauss slowly replacing  then come 3095 + more quickly . Kinda shocked it does not become extinct by the IlKhan ERA.   

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There only a couple dozen mechs with FL armor, and they're all high-bv and high priced Clan machines.  Even if you're regularly picking fights with the Sea Foxes and Snow Ravens (the two largest users of Ferro-Lam Armor), there's still not enough reason to swap out all your SB Gausses.

[Charistoph]

With the advent of Ferro Laminar  armor it gets phased out with Hyper Velocity Gauss slowly replacing  then come 3095 + more quickly . Kinda shocked it does not become extinct by the IlKhan ERA.

2 counter-points:

1) The why isn't LB-X Cluster in the same position?

2) Where can I find the rules for the Hyper Velocity Gauss, and what has it been mounted on?

I can also find 10 Mech variants created after Ferro-Lammelar in MegaMekLab's search using the Silver Bullet Gauss, with the last one being the Orochi OR-3K in 3144.

[Daryk]

LB-X cannons can also fire slug, so they have use beyond just cluster shots (they're lighter normal ACs).  SB Gauss don't have that option.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

2 counter-points:

1) The why isn't LB-X Cluster in the same position?

2) Where can I find the rules for the Hyper Velocity Gauss, and what has it been mounted on?

I can also find 10 Mech variants created after Ferro-Lammelar in MegaMekLab's search using the Silver Bullet Gauss, with the last one being the Orochi OR-3K in 3144.

I'm guessing they meant HAGs when they said Hyper Velocity Gauss.  While HAGs are more widespread than SB Gauss are, they're also Clantech and there's no evidence that there's any sort of direct competition between the two weapons.

[Charistoph]

I'm guessing they meant HAGs when they said Hyper Velocity Gauss.  While HAGs are more widespread than SB Gauss are, they're also Clantech and there's no evidence that there's any sort of direct competition between the two weapons.

The funny thing that the HAG and SBG are about as different as LB-20X and LRM-20 (aside from range).

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, very different functions despite similar damage output.

[Col Toda]

When Silver Bullet Gauss came out in Maximum Tech I think the very First application I did was an Air/Space field gun emplacement.  5 gunnery for Automated and 4 for crewed . -2 for Flack and -2 for Anti Air Fire Control . That is a net 1 or 0 gunnery for it . When aircraft attack they have to make a pilot roll if they take damage to avoid becoming a lawn dart . LB-X get the same bonus . Both LBX cluster and SB Gauss does no damage to an air unit with FL Armor.  No damage taken no pilot roll needed . This is why the Armor was invented in the first place . HAG has the Flack bonus too but it does 5 point clusters of damage . This was the Niche that the SB Excelled in until the Clans made a counter for it . By 3095 Mixed tech becomes Advanced not experimental and not a poor investment to purchase HAG to replace SB Gauss on boarders that are shared by the clans then by ilKhan Age had use the 40 + years to gradually replace them everywhere.

Same Application.  Same Function.

When it came out it was FANTASTIC in it's niche even over value added BV wise. But by 3152 I only expect to see it toward Cappellen Space towards the Periphery.  Great weapon in it's time .
LB-X has slug munitions and a better range than most autocannon type weapons . It is capable of using Slug Damage to put holes in Armor and Cluster to exploit them . If the SB Gauss could use Slug and Cluster even with adding 1 ton and Crit to the weapon it would Never be largely Obsolete. 

This is a direct comparison / competition
 between SB Gauss , HAG and LBX . IN The Niche in which FL Armor  was invented for . FL armor on mechs vs Air Assets is rare true but it wasn't ment for mechs and combat vehicles they took advantage of FL Armor existence as an after thought .

I hope this gives more context than my previous posts . I tend to avoid being comprehensive as it may come close to violating rules of the forum.  Apparently the other people responding to the post use very different optimum applications than I did for this apparently (to me )niche weapon .

My experience in ground combat it is a lackluster weapon until the 3rd combat turn against mechs . Nice at immobilizing combat vehicles and maybe  early proto mechs . You tend to Hammer  / Anvil paired tactics with it. Fielding an LB 10 X might not get you the same range but the Slug option makes the weapons effective in the first 3 turns against mechs .

How different is other people's experience???

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Only the LB 2-X has better range than the Silver Bullet GR.  It's got a slight range advantage over the LB 5-X and three times the damage output for only a little over half the weight.

[Starfury]

The Silver Bullet GR shines when it's paired up with another high direct damage gun, ala the Carronade with its Gauss Rifle/Silver Bullet GR combo, or when you have multiples.  It's an LB-15x with low heat, non explosive ammo, and a 22 hex range. Put two or more on a mech/tank and you have a scary scattershot weapon, especially vs vehicles and infantry. Yes certain defenses render it useless, but many mechs don't use them.  It's one of the few weapons the Clans don't possess an equivalent to. I'd love to see on more chassis.

[Col Toda]

I don't expect to ever see it in alot more chassis as it is a whopping 15 ton weapon with 8 shots per ton ammo . As the only pairing that makes sense is a standard Gauss which is another 15 tons and accompanying ammo . This does not lend itself for optimumization . The Dragonfire 4F has a normal Gauss Rifle and a LB  10 X and pays a high price in speed .

A PPC, LB10X, and 2 light AC/2  as well as Thunderbolt weapons all have the same 6/12/18 weapon brackets appeal more in tactical design .

Because of weight concerns as well as one ammo type I tended to put them in space / air field gun emplacements in which neither is a serious factor . I think when it came out it was a great experimental niche weapon . It was very nice even optimal in that niche.  The battlefield it is still good vs combined arms with an opponent with combat vehicles.  It is lackluster against Clan or Inner Sphere mech only opponents.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

First of all, it has identical range bands to the standard Gauss Rifle, not 6/12/18.  Second of all, try actually playing it some time before writing it off so easily.  It's actually a highly effective weapon so long as you're not fighting one of the few mechs with FL armor.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Range-wise, SB Gauss pairs well with regular Gauss, ER PPCs, ER Large, and LRMs.  It’s easy to drop one in, say, a Falconer for a 5/8 platform.  (Or in many slower platforms like the Cerberus, Gunslinger, Nightstar, Pillager, or T-Hawk.)

The tough part is giving up the headcapper for the crit-seeker.  That, and the limited pool of sometimes inexperienced designers that the TROs/RGs pull from, is why the SB Gauss has not been more popular.  Logically, at a minimum, each of the units above would have an SB Gauss variant (probably deployed at a 1:3 ratio) for dealing with combat vehicles, airborne units, and achieving kill thresholds on BA.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

MAD-11D.

[Charistoph]

Thunder Hawk would be an excellent candidate for it.  It's a "pick a barrel to replace" candidate.  Replacing all 3 of them would be... unfortunate for anything airborne.

[Starfury]

The Rifleman with dual Silver Bullet Gauss is a aexcellent anti everything platform.  I can also see a Silver Bullet Gausszilla equivalent, as well as it being changed out on 1 for 1 installation on mechs that already have armor crackers.