Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.

[tassa_kay]

Dark Age Alaric was neither a hero nor an antihero, as seen in the Free Worlds League arc. He was an opportunist full of hubris from the beginning but one who had greater vision than other Clanners. I guess you could use him in the Greek sense of a hero, but be sure that you have read the Iliad and Odyssey in whole.

Agreed. I certainly wouldn’t characterize Dark Age Alaric as a hero or even an anti-hero, either. He straight up murdered Seth Ward and covered it up so he could seize power in his Clan, and he did so for his own selfish gain. Even his murder of Katherine was an undeniably villainous act, despite her own villainous status, because he did so because of his perception (correct or not) that she was a threat to his own ambitions.

And even ilClan Alaric isn’t any better, questionable framing in HotW notwithstanding. He let Chance Vickers murder Stone in his bed (and I’ve no doubt that he’d have done it himself if he weren’t in the throes of grappling with the truth bombs Stone had dropped on him), and he forced the Dominion into internal turmoil because they weren’t bowing deeply enough to him. And I’m sure there’s plenty more to come.

He is exactly the villain that Katherine created him to be.

[Metallgewitter]

Well he is certainly a copy of Katherine Steiner-Davion with the same issues she had: creating enemies left and right by betraying them when their use has run out. So who will be the next Victor to actually bring him down?

[BrianDavion]

My guess is someone we've not seen yet

[tassa_kay]

So who will be the next Victor

Hopefully no one. Victor is not someone I particularly care to see repeated.

That said... let Anastasia take him out if need be.

[Colt Ward]

Really? The only major setbacks the Crusader Wolves got in that period were the Hell's Horses exacting revenge for the 3064 shenanigans and perhaps them loosing a few worlds to the Ghost Bears in the same year. And don't mention the Jihad because the Jihad hit nearly all factions equally. Heck the Wolves somehow managed to keep the Horses from advancing further despite them having lost a huge chunk of their industry and also allegedly having nearly depleted all their storages at one point trying to stop the Horses

3058 half the Invasion Wolf Clan, admittedly mostly second & garrison level troops, fell into a black hole.

The Wolves lost not just the worlds the Horses under Malavi Fletcher were garrisoning, but Star Colonel Dirk Radick fell for a ploy causing the Crusader Wolves to lose MORE Rasalhague world.  Including one that just had a factory come online for IIRC Locust IIC production.

FMU set 3067 and TPTB forgot about the Crusader Wolves flagship.  It had to be errata'd in.

A whole galaxy was absorbed into the Horses, not that Vlad really cared too much the Wardens were removed from his Clan except that whole half the touman disappearing in '58 & calling Harvest Trials.  Then after the touman takes a beat down, Delta is "gifted" to the Republic further stripping troops from their pre-Jihad shortage.

A mech that was held in almost as much esteem as the Founder's Bloodname, the Orion IIC, some how was at least 2 (unless Tal Sender's was returned to stock from Burton's experimentation) let go after the Jihad to the Republic b/c IMO fact checking failures.

All the other Clans in the IS were left with OmniMech factory production after the Jihad- Jade Falcons, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Warden Wolves.  The SharkFoxes had Twycross but built their production, and I am not sure when the Horses ended up with their Omni factories after their move but they did it on worlds the Crusaders had mostly abandoned.  Same with Ravens, not sure when they started producing Omnis. Heck- the Falcons (Butler), Bears (Alshain), Ravens (Quatre Belle), SharkFoxes (Chainlaine & more), Warden Wolves (Arc Royal), and maybe the Cats had the facilities to service their surviving warships & jumpships.



See, I do not see Alaric as a villain in Bonfire for a simple reason- I do not see any of the leaders in BT really as villains, even if they could be considered "black hats."  For all that Daoshen is nuttier than a fruitcake, he is a FUNCTIONAL fruitcake that- and I really appreciated this in his appearances on Terra & after, the author understood the idea of that the absolute monarch of a state IS the embodiment of the state- in the course of normal morality takes actions that would be immoral.  But it does not apply to a monarch, which the Khans immaterial of the name are de jure.

[tassa_kay]

See, I do not see Alaric as a villain in Bonfire for a simple reason- I do not see any of the leaders in BT really as villains, even if they could be considered "black hats."  For all that Daoshen is nuttier than a fruitcake, he is a FUNCTIONAL fruitcake that- and I really appreciated this in his appearances on Terra & after, the author understood the idea of that the absolute monarch of a state IS the embodiment of the state- in the course of normal morality takes actions that would be immoral.  But it does not apply to a monarch, which the Khans immaterial of the name are de jure.

Just because Daoshen has deluded himself and the people around him into seeing him as the embodiment of the Capellan state does not mean he's suddenly exempt from morality. If anything, him being a functional fruitcake as you put it makes him more culpable for his actions. He's also cognizant enough to know to hide his incestuous relationship with Ilsa and his parentage of Danai. And as far as Alaric goes... if he were exempt from morality, he wouldn't have had to cover up his murder of Seth Ward or Katherine the way that he has; even within the context of his own deeply-screwed-up society and culture, those were villainous acts of straight-up murder. Alaric and Daoshen are undeniably villains, despite whatever they tell themselves to justify their actions.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

I'll never fault someone for liking a villainous character or faction in a tabletop game. Games are meant to be a form of escapism, and that's ok. But that's why I call Alaric a villainous protagonist. A straight villain is just a bad guy the main characters try to defeat or overcome. A villainous protagonist is a main character we read and follow who is still doing evil things.

Alaric murdered his Khan unjustly for his own ambition. He murdered his own mother to protect his ambition. He's executed POWs, killed civilians, and has led multiple conquests on people who have never done anything to harm him (Republic). While we can understand his motivations and see from his perspective why he might think he's justified doesn't mean what he's done isn't villainous. But he's also a main character which can let us forget that. Alaric in Masters of War and Bonfire of Worlds was done excellently, he was a magnificent b*stard, but you still kind of wanted to root for him. Alaric in Children of Kerensky and HOTW (up until the last few chapters) was a lame character, he was treated as a regular protagonist who was doing horrific things, but we were expected to cheer for him. He's better (Not really) in comparison to Malvina, which we were told a bazillion times, but the real Protagonists of HOTW, the Republic, were just speedbumps for Alaric.

[tassa_kay]

snip

And this is exactly why I love Malvina Hazen, most especially in “A Rending of Falcons”. A villainous protagonist whom we were allowed to sympathize with to a degree, someone who was shaped to be what she was by the society that spawned her just like Alaric was, but whose actions were also unquestionably bad. A complex villainous protagonist that BLP had to retcon into a child abuser to make Alaric look better by comparison, when he’s every bit as much a villain as she. Lord, HotW was so clumsy and awkward.

[Metallgewitter]

This makes me wonder how they will portray Alaric in the novels to come. The Ilkhan trial paints Alaric in a slightly better light then Malvina (which is NOT hard btw) but he already has created enough enemies for himself that I am not sure how to "redeem" that. Maybe as Tasha said Anastasia will oust him down the road. In a setting that David Lear and Stone feared when they tried to weaken the influence of Belle Lee when they discussed who should be the first Commanding General of the then forming RAF. Though unlike say the SLDF civil war or FedCom civil war we now have two sides that are both equal bad: the Confederation and the Wolves. Usually you have sides where you can at least say "Yes those are the 'good' guys". We don't have that here per se. We have one war criminal fighting another.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

This makes me wonder how they will portray Alaric in the novels to come. The Ilkhan trial paints Alaric in a slightly better light then Malvina (which is NOT hard btw) but he already has created enough enemies for himself that I am not sure how to "redeem" that. Maybe as Tasha said Anastasia will oust him down the road. In a setting that David Lear and Stone feared when they tried to weaken the influence of Belle Lee when they discussed who should be the first Commanding General of the then forming RAF. Though unlike say the SLDF civil war or FedCom civil war we now have two sides that are both equal bad: the Confederation and the Wolves. Usually you have sides where you can at least say "Yes those are the 'good' guys". We don't have that here per se. We have one war criminal fighting another.

Hey, no matter how loses we (non-Wolf or Capellan fans) win. Obviously the IlClan will be around for a while. I think the real Wolf story will be around Alaric's subordinates.

Chance Vickers
Anastasia Kerensky
Stephanie Chistu
Prohaska Moon

Jockeying for power, trying to support Alaric as he starts to blunder. As much as I'm sad that the Republic was killed, so long as the Wolves are quagmired for a while and have to pay for that victory, I'll find that an interesting story.

[Metallgewitter]

Don't discount Tara Campbell. While she is now a Falcon she is still a Republican at heart. Should Alaric or even her own Khan start acting like Malvina we might get a "Praetorian Guard rebellion". And then we have some high former Republican like Jonah who might get a new role to play as well. Or maybe even Alaric's own "children" one or two decades down the line

[tassa_kay]

Don't discount Tara Campbell. While she is now a Falcon she is still a Republican at heart.

Hard to be a Republican when there's no Republic. And I don't foresee any of that happening anyway. Stephanie Chistu and Tara are going to get along like gangbusters and we've seen no indication that Alaric is going to take a turn for the genocidal.

I think the real Wolf story will be around Alaric's subordinates.

I think it's a huge leap at this point to think that Alaric isn't going to be front-and-center for years to come. The ilClan era has literally just started and it's hilarious to me to see so many folks doomsaying Alaric's downfall when we've absolutely no indication that that's in the works.

[rebs]

Jockeying for power, trying to support Alaric as he starts to blunder. As much as I'm sad that the Republic was killed, so long as the Wolves are quagmired for a while and have to pay for that victory, I'll find that an interesting story.

Just because the Wolves cajoled an enfeebled Devlin Stone into declaring the Republic disbanded doesn't mean the Wolves suddenly have the power to make that a reality on any number of worlds that could make up a possible RotS remnant.  As in all things Clan, one needs to have the ability to impose their will on their foes, and right now the Wolves are lacking that. 

[Colt Ward]

Except for one known former Paladin joins the League.  RAF commands outside of Terra imploded when they heard the surrender.  The Ares toting refugees gave it up and joined IIRC Fox backed mercs.  And Galatea is flooded with former RAF who decided to move on.

[Metallgewitter]

Yeah the Republic is more or less dead as those that might have uphold it's spirit are either dead, MIA, have joined the Wolves or other states / formed mercenary units. The Wolves on the other hand now have to pick up the pieces and quick as they are in essence surrounded by enemy states as their "home state" will most likely not survive the next years (or even months if the League manages to gather a steamroll of an assault)

[Wrangler]

Given how things got destabilized and really lack of transportation, I can't think of anything people would have gathered a convoy of Jumpships to truck off to periphery established colony. Wall would prevented any one escaping once writing on the wall be came clear. Especially how they worked out how wall actually worked. Use a KF core kill a JumpShip.

[rebs]

We don't know how many more Ghost Knights there were who can organize things, transport assets can be hired, and also if the RotS vets who survived joined merc units or formed their own, I would be disappointed if they weren't wanting to find Houses who desired to strike at the Wolves while they are still weak from eating the Republic on Terra and the Jade Falcons.

[tassa_kay]

There’s always the CapCon.

[Minemech]

There’s always the CapCon.

The Free Worlds League and Lyran Commonwealth are the immediate candidates, with the Federated Suns in third place. The Draconis Combine may actually jump up soon due to the fact that the Coordinator is going to genuinely need them and be forced to pretend to be slightly more favorably disposed toward them. I would place the Capellan Confederation somewhere between Clan Cloud Cobra and Clan Star Adder on who they should sign up with.

[tassa_kay]

The Free Worlds League and Lyran Commonwealth are the immediate candidates, with the Federated Suns in third place. The Draconis Combine may actually jump up soon due to the fact that the Coordinator is going to genuinely need them and be forced to pretend to be slightly more favorably disposed toward them. I would place the Capellan Confederation somewhere between Clan Cloud Cobra and Clan Star Adder on who they should sign up with.

I figured the laughing emoji at the end would indicate that I was joking, but alas...

[Minemech]

I figured the laughing emoji at the end would indicate that I was joking, but alas...

I got a blank square.

[Wrangler]

When the forums had the last 505 error, they never reinstalled the old animated emojis.  I think someone has to ask them be put back in.

[rebs]

There’s always the CapCon.

Talk about strange bedfellows - former RotS mercs and the Cappies!   

But in all seriousness, I just can't wait for IKEO to see what the situation is outside of our speculating. 

[Metallgewitter]

Speaking of IKEO do we have a in-universum date where it continues. From the last Sourcebooks we are currently in late summer 3152 right? Would the book start there? Or perhaps give a more vision of how the occupation of Terra went and then basically go from there like the hunt for still active Ghost Knights, former key Republic personnel like Levin and Harwell while also getting scattrered reports of how the Wolf empire gets slowly devourted by the League and Confederation (if we count conquered Prefecture X worlds as Wolf empire) Or rather a point right after Dominion Divided where perhaps the Ilkhan finally gets the dire news that his possible reinforcemtns are actually waging a war against the Combine while his homebase is under attack plus the Confederation has now cut into their supply lines? From all I know is that he should have gotten the situation reports from Othar but in Empire Alone he never replied and the only communication Othar gets is at the end of Redemption Rites which basically means "You are on your own!"

[BrianDavion]

I've always assumed IKEO will be the same general time period as the other books and cover the Terran corridor, the area around terra just before and after the ilclan trial

[tassa_kay]

We simply don't know yet and are going to have to wait for the book to come out.

[Minemech]

 With the League on full war footing, it should not be a slow advance. Petr has always been an interesting wildcard; he should remain an intriguing watch as could Othar if played correctly. There are a lot of potential scenarios for that region of space.

[BrianDavion]

With the League on full war footing, it should not be a slow advance. Petr has always been an interesting wildcard; he should remain an intriguing watch as could Othar if played correctly. There are a lot of potential scenarios for that region of space.

This of course assumes something doesn't happen to stop the FWL advance, though  I'm not sure what could short of the wolves beating them to the punch, or the details of Jessica's death coming out and forcing the FWL to attack the capcon

[tassa_kay]

or the details of Jessica's death coming out and forcing the FWL to attack the capcon

What did the CapCon have to do with Jessica's death? Or are you saying the FWL would attack the Capellans to keep from getting caught up in another civil war?

[Metallgewitter]

The only thing the CapCon seems to have been tied to were the Marian raids from Gibraltar against the League and the Magistracy. Jessica allegedly was killed by an assassin from House Selaj (the old rulers of Regulus). Of cvour4se it could have been the Capellans though for what ends? Just because? I can see the League invasion into the empire derail if the Lyrans interfere (they should also have the information that the empire is basically undefended) or the Clan Protectorate interfering. Otherwise I can see the empire collapsing fast with the Dragoons sacking Gienah and basically right after that the general assault is called on the entire Empire. Heck Redemption Rites ends a few weeks after the general assault has been ordered already and Marotta Kerensky only knows that the Dragoons managed to wrestle a handful of worlds from the empire but NOTHING else.