Is there a place for clan vees at 5/6?

[Kobold]

While getting the newest cycle of MekWars Forever set up (see my signature!  come play!  unsubtle pimping!), I had a look at the default skill chart (Total Warfare, page 40).

I realized that clan combat vee default crews are 5/6.  We had previously had them at 4/5.

With this change in place, what role do clan combat vees, particularly the various non-transport tanks have on a 3050s era battlefield?  Assume all clan opponents field 3/4 pilots, and the IS forces have mostly 4/5 pilots.

Does the reduced gunnery make it impossible to hit fast moving clan mechs, rendering them useless against any clan mech that feels like fighting at long ranges?  When the clan invasion commences on our server (though I know in canon it was mostly front line mechs, and not much in the way of vees), will the 5/6 crew make the vees so cheap that they will massively outclass IS opponents, while still having no problem shooting slow moving IS heavies and assaults?

[I am Belch II]

It could be for a very green crew of a clan vee. Substandard training, or still training.

[Paul]

Well...

5/6 applies to "Regular" Clan vehicle troops. Vets are still 4/5, elites (rare outside CHH) are 3/4.
Also note you can elect to have random skills generated, which could add a bit of flavor. Talking about the tables on p.273 of TW. Seems to me a client may eliminate the cumbersom task of rolling up a large force, thus improving fun.

That said, the 5 gunnery isn't that crippling, but does adjust tactics.
First off, you have access to quite a few pulse lasers, and generally speaking, more firepower per ton. Secondly, vehicles are generally considered outside zellbrigen, so they can group fire in almost every circumstance.
The 3rd aspect you already hint at: super cheap firepower. It forces close proximity combat, but especially tracked vehicles can often engage targets in short range, and without movement that turn. Presuming the target made a 2 move-mod, that's a 7 to-hit.

Now, it still sucks, and especially hovers really feel the bite of the 6 piloting, but to discount them outright seems to go a tad far.

Still, you could elect to ignore canon on the skill point.

Paul

[Ian Sharpe]

Get them into place, stop, and start shooting.  It works fine with most of them, as no matter what, gunnery skill doesn't improve the armour, so clan vees die a lot, and can die very quickly.  Make up for it with numbers, being outside of zellbrigen(can engage any unit, but can also be engaged by any unit or mass targeted)and pretty good range brackets.  Don't go for many of the short ranged tanks, use the Hachiman, Morrigu, tanks with Clan LRMs and good firepower.  The Athena rocks as a defensive vehicle.  The Oro is a good bodyguard, the LB and LPL can help the TH numbers.  Don't be afraid to use Star League vehicles, particularly the Alacorn.  If/when the Enyo and Axel IIC come available, use them.  The LPL, high closing speed, and triple streak 6s make the Enyo a great tank for green crews, while the Axel IIC has an LPL and LRMs. 

[willydstyle]

Get them into place, stop, and start shooting.  It works fine with most of them, as no matter what, gunnery skill doesn't improve the armour, so clan vees die a lot, and can die very quickly.  Make up for it with numbers, being outside of zellbrigen(can engage any unit, but can also be engaged by any unit or mass targeted)and pretty good range brackets.  Don't go for many of the short ranged tanks, use the Hachiman, Morrigu, tanks with Clan LRMs and good firepower.  The Athena rocks as a defensive vehicle.  The Oro is a good bodyguard, the LB and LPL can help the TH numbers.  Don't be afraid to use Star League vehicles, particularly the Alacorn.  If/when the Enyo and Axel IIC come available, use them.  The LPL, high closing speed, and triple streak 6s make the Enyo a great tank for green crews, while the Axel IIC has an LPL and LRMs.

Seriously.  I mean, I like the Zorya, just because it's cute and has some useful guns, but why would the clans ever design a vehicle that can die to a single 15-point hit on either side?  It feels like the Clans' distate for vehicles is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy:

Step 1: design very fragile vehicles

Step 2: put only the worst of the warrior class in them, and give them insufficient training

Step 3: proclaim loudly that vehicles are worthless, after you've done everything in your power to ensure that they will be worthless :D

[Ian Sharpe]

I've gamed a fair amount with green IS tanks, but they perform so much better due to the generally higher armour factor and lower overall damage at range IS mechs put out.  But gaming with Clan tanks, have to play to the strengths of Clan weapons, namely LRMs and pulse weapons.  Its why vees like the Zorya are useful AA assets for second line formations, or garrisons that don't mandate even second line mechs, ie, bandit targets, but have no place in combat. 

[Lagbreaker]

5/6 skill default for clan vehicles makes clan vees utterly unattractive. Pulse weapons mitigate that to some effect but even then how many of those pulse tanks are out there?
The BV reduction for 5/6 is not enough incentive to field them. I can see some cheap clan vees being fielded vs IS, but only as Ini-sinks. Their combat value is allmost nil

Vs IS they have the disadvantage of not being as maneuverable as clan mechs generally are, its easier to claim partial cover vs vees and they get immobilized just as easy as their much cheaper IS counterparts.
In a mekwars environment they are throw away units. Vees very rarely survive a battle, so their crew would not improve their skill over time as mech pilots do.

[StCptMara]

See...I have always kind of ignored the "Standard Clan skills" outside of 'Mechs....If it is Clan, it is 3/4 unless it is
in a Sibko, then it is 4/5.

Ever notice how many people, despite the change years ago to the gunnery/pilot order STILL use the old G/P instead of the
newer P/G?

[Neufeld]

Ever notice how many people, despite the change years ago to the gunnery/pilot order STILL use the old G/P instead of the
newer P/G?

There is a newer P/G format?

[Sir Chaos]

There is a newer P/G format?

It has been P/G since forever in the German version.



Back on topic: Clan vehicles have at least one role: artillery. Vehicle crews skills don´t matter with Arrow IV Homing, and even with unguided Arrow IV, they´ll be effective enough, AND relatively cheap BV-wise due to poor skills.

[KlavoHunter]

Or deploying Thunder Minefields - a Star of LRM Carriers will ensure that the enemy will not escape the Circle of Equals with your MechWarriors! 

[Jellico]

Seriously.  I mean, I like the Zorya, just because it's cute and has some useful guns, but why would the clans ever design a vehicle that can die to a single 15-point hit on either side?

Park it next to a Dire Wolf. Cheap ECM with useful fire support.

Clan tanks have a role, but it takes a lot of practice. Most players come from 'Mechs which are tough to kill. IS tanks are a midway step and many players have trouble adapting to that.

Clan tanks are very soft, and gunnery skills make them even harder to use.
Start with your movement. Move, stop fire. You mostly have long range weapons which mean even without pulse you pick up a -2 compared to your IS peers. Likewise against Clan 'Mechs. Ideally move into a line of woods as a group so all the weapons in a star can hit at once.

Firepower. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. You have lots of firepower and if you don't use it you will never survive long enough to empty your ammo bins. Use it frequently and often. Use it in large groups against single targets. IS tanks may have armour, but they are still vulnerable to crits and that means volume of fire.

Sacrifice. Rank your tanks. The more firepower they have the more valuable they are. Every other tank must die before the most valuable one does. That means using the less valuable tanks as bait to draw fire away. Ishtars and Kus are good for this. Their shorter ranged weapons make it more difficult to use them in a firing line, so you may as well use them as bullet magnets. If you are lucky you can cycle them in and out so they might not even die.

Recognise roles. An Ares isn't a Myrmidon. Its a fast fire support tank so don't use it as a MBT. A Mars is a glorified LRM Carrier, not an assault tank. Conversely, with its mix of speed, armour and firepower a Hachiman is a MBT.

Teamwork. Use your star. These aren't 'Mechs. You will lose some. Rotate them in and out of danger. Cover each other's flanks. Mass fire. Generally use them as a single unit rather than lots of singles.

[Pa Weasley]

Jellico nailed it. If you want to get accustomed to using 5/6 pilots and Clan vehicle tactics you may want to try some of the more recent models. The Carnivore, Axel IIC, and Joust mount enough armor to survive mistakes that might kill other Clan tanks and still pack a wallop.

[willydstyle]

Jellico nailed it. If you want to get accustomed to using 5/6 pilots and Clan vehicle tactics you may want to try some of the more recent models. The Carnivore, Axel IIC, and Joust mount enough armor to survive mistakes that might kill other Clan tanks and still pack a wallop.

I understand *how* to use the Zorya: it has good range, so you park it in a light woods far from the enemy lines and stop moving.

The problem is that if you put it next to a dire wolf, only a fool would shoot the dire wolf first.  In Clan vs. Clan combat, a single ERPPC or Gauss Rifle hit from the side destroys the tank.  Now, while that's not the end of the world because they are really a minimal investment, I simply don't believe that a clan unit should exist that can be easily destroyed by a single 15-point hit, as those weapons are so common.

[Pa Weasley]

That's a valid argument but by the same token there are plenty of Clan 'mechs that are crippled if not out right destroyed by an ER PPC to a torso location. Meanwhile that's 15 points not directed at the Dire Wolf.

As stated before, some of the roles vehicles can take are support or bullet magnet. In this instance the Zorya is acting as both. For a comparatively minimal investment I might add. Plus we're judging an entire group of units based on one of the weakest members.

[willydstyle]

That's a valid argument but by the same token there are plenty of Clan 'mechs that are crippled if not out right destroyed by an ER PPC to a torso location. Meanwhile that's 15 points not directed at the Dire Wolf.

As stated before, some of the roles vehicles can take are support or bullet magnet. In this instance the Zorya is acting as both. For a comparatively minimal investment I might add.

The difference is that 15 points of damage to a dire wolf is very unlikely to actually change the amount of firepower that it adds to the game.  The same 15 points to the Zorya removes ECM, an LRM10 with Artemis, and an LB-5X, so your opponent is actually reducing your effective firepower with that 15 damage.  This means that the Zorya is *not* acting as an effective "bullet magnet" because while it may be drawing fire away from other units, that fire is actually *more usefully applied* to the Zorya.

[Paul]

One distinct aspect of BT is that most combat vehicles can be expected to survive a single hit from a hostile weapon system.
That's rare in comparison to most modern-day weapons, where the physics behind missiles and shells in common use tend to result in 1 shot = 1 kill.
Games that use modern day combat tend to reflect that degree of lethality as well.

It generates different tactics. Tactics that often aren't particularly efficient in BattleTech, or that compete with substantially more efficient BT tactics.


Not so with thin-skinned glass canon Clan tanks. They actually benefit when you use such 1S1K tactics.

If you operate them as regular tanks or 'Mechs, you'll loose them quick.

If you instead operate them to have only a single exchange of firepower with the enemy, you're in much better shape. Several Points of Vehicles taking a peek past a hill such that only a single hostile Mech has Line Of Sight is the way to go.
Formations in a spot behind a hill that can break LOS in a single turn is the way to go. Whatever enemy crests the hill, or turns past it will get the whole nine yards, followed by an enemy he only got to shoot at for 1 turn.
If their efforts are disjointed, this means your glass cannons rarely take shots unless the enemy commits a huge chunk of his force to the task.

This way, your tank formation becomes an area denial weapon. Or a prize the enemy will invest far too much in to take out. Because if it concentrates on those tanks, your Mech force will likely have a much easier time.

Paul

[Khymerion]

A 15 pt hit to the side means that it wasn't keeping the important facings of the tank towards the enemy...  the front or better yet the turret if hiding behind a ridge or going hull down on defense.   BT's tanks tend to be rolling bricks, armor almost balanced on all sides (except rear)... especially the IS tanks.   Clanner tanks actually require a bit more finesse to use and their low cost actually makes them fun to deploy of the field, thanks to those inferior pilots.

An actual fun scenario is to pit 'superior' Inner Sphere tanks on the defense against a massed 'Inferior' clan armored forces on the offensive.   The game takes on a feel much akin to the more traditional table top war games then, definitely familiar.   Watching tanks pop on both sides is fun...   almost decadent in it's appeal.

[willydstyle]

A 15 pt hit to the side means that it wasn't keeping the important facings of the tank towards the enemy...  the front or better yet the turret if hiding behind a ridge or going hull down on defense.   BT's tanks tend to be rolling bricks, armor almost balanced on all sides (except rear)... especially the IS tanks.   Clanner tanks actually require a bit more finesse to use and their low cost actually makes them fun to deploy of the field, thanks to those inferior pilots.

An actual fun scenario is to pit 'superior' Inner Sphere tanks on the defense against a massed 'Inferior' clan armored forces on the offensive.   The game takes on a feel much akin to the more traditional table top war games then, definitely familiar.   Watching tanks pop on both sides is fun...   almost decadent in it's appeal.

Are there rules that allow tanks to benefit from level 1 terrain?  I'm only familiar with TW, where tanks are completely obscured by level 1 terrain.  Also, at 5/6, a tank that has to move is a tank that's not going to be contributing any useful firepower for the turn, even if it's just to rotate a couple of hexes.

[Khymerion]

Forgive me, sometimes I remember earlier rulesets.

Namely MaxTech that had the fun rules for vehicles that I didn't know didn't make it over...  like the multiple crewmen action rules (not taking penalties for targeting multiple targets at once), the hull down rules (a hull down tank takes shots to the turret), and the old rule of tanks actually surviving the loss of a turret.

My appologies for continuing to use tactics that used older rules that may or may not have made it over to the most current rule set or have not been republished (like the old fortification/bunker rules from Tactical Handbook).    Please disregard if these have been updated for more current rules and are no longer viable.



But also remember, sometimes, moving is not always the most advantageous of choices to make.   If using hull down tricks, that is more a defensive thing where the turret toys are the thing that matters most (as it should be).

[Sir Chaos]

One distinct aspect of BT is that most combat vehicles can be expected to survive a single hit from a hostile weapon system.
That's rare in comparison to most modern-day weapons, where the physics behind missiles and shells in common use tend to result in 1 shot = 1 kill.
Games that use modern day combat tend to reflect that degree of lethality as well.

It generates different tactics. Tactics that often aren't particularly efficient in BattleTech, or that compete with substantially more efficient BT tactics.


Not so with thin-skinned glass canon Clan tanks. They actually benefit when you use such 1S1K tactics.

If you operate them as regular tanks or 'Mechs, you'll loose them quick.

If you instead operate them to have only a single exchange of firepower with the enemy, you're in much better shape. Several Points of Vehicles taking a peek past a hill such that only a single hostile Mech has Line Of Sight is the way to go.
Formations in a spot behind a hill that can break LOS in a single turn is the way to go. Whatever enemy crests the hill, or turns past it will get the whole nine yards, followed by an enemy he only got to shoot at for 1 turn.
If their efforts are disjointed, this means your glass cannons rarely take shots unless the enemy commits a huge chunk of his force to the task.

This way, your tank formation becomes an area denial weapon. Or a prize the enemy will invest far too much in to take out. Because if it concentrates on those tanks, your Mech force will likely have a much easier time.

Paul

So, essentially, use Clan tanks like you use LRM/SRM Carriers?

[Paul]

So, essentially, use Clan tanks like you use LRM/SRM Carriers?

Yes, exactly. But really more like SRM carriers, since most must rely for direct-fire to do damage.

Paul

[Jellico]

The difference is that 15 points of damage to a dire wolf is very unlikely to actually change the amount of firepower that it adds to the game.  The same 15 points to the Zorya removes ECM, an LRM10 with Artemis, and an LB-5X, so your opponent is actually reducing your effective firepower with that 15 damage.  This means that the Zorya is *not* acting as an effective "bullet magnet" because while it may be drawing fire away from other units, that fire is actually *more usefully applied* to the Zorya.

Thats always a big maybe. Its a psycological question as to whether a player will target the Dire Wolf or the Zorya, and what can be done to influence the player's decision. For example sitting the Zoyra 4 hexes back may make it a harder target. Put it behind a ridge, etc etc. Zoryas aren't bullet magnet type tanks anyway given their reach and softness, there are better choices to use in that role first.

In the case of the Zorya it is interesting to note that the IS simply doesn't build light tanks. For the most part they build light hovercraft and the tracked and wheeled platforms are worse than the Clan ones. It makes it hard for players to judge how effective Zoryas, Mithras, Indras and Odins actually are.

[Kit deSummersville]

Jellico nailed it. If you want to get accustomed to using 5/6 pilots and Clan vehicle tactics you may want to try some of the more recent models. The Carnivore, Axel IIC, and Joust mount enough armor to survive mistakes that might kill other Clan tanks and still pack a wallop.

How quickly they forget the Chalchiuhtotolin....

 ;)

[Pa Weasley]

Oh, just the pronunciation.

*And what fun is it if we mere forum denizens can't occasionally bait our favorite feisty writer?*

[Moonsword]

Oh, just the pronunciation.

*And what fun is it if we mere forum denizens can't occasionally bait our favorite feisty writer?*

Also, the Chalchiuhtotolin doesn't have the sort of armor the other three do although the use of FF helps significantly.  (Compare the Chalchiuhtotolin and the Bulldog's armor values, then check the tonnage.)

In the case of the Zorya it is interesting to note that the IS simply doesn't build light tanks. For the most part they build light hovercraft and the tracked and wheeled platforms are worse than the Clan ones. It makes it hard for players to judge how effective Zoryas, Mithras, Indras and Odins actually are.

I wouldn't lump the Chevalier and Striker into quite the same category as the Scorpion and the Galleon.

[Kit deSummersville]

Also, the Chalchiuhtotolin doesn't have the sort of armor the other three do although the use of FF helps significantly.  (Compare the Chalchiuhtotolin and the Bulldog's armor values, then check the tonnage.)

The Chalupa is ten tons less and has the same armor tonnage.  ??? It's not a brick but it's not a slouch like the Ares.

[Moonsword]

That wasn't exactly what I was getting at and I wasn't trying to imply it was a slouch.  It's just not a brick.  My point on that comparison was how helpful the ferro-fibrous was in bringing the armor up.

[Kobold]

After discussing it, the boss admin has decided to switch back to 4/5 clan vees.