Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race

[marcussmythe]

Lyran Commonwealth, Turn III:  2370-2380

Budget:

Code: [Select]

Lyran Commonwealth, Turn Beginning 2370
Physical Assets:
Starting Shipyards: Alarion: 3/3  New Kyoto: 3/1  Tamar 1  Gibbs 1
Starting Warships:  Heimdaller FFx6 30.438
Tyr CAx 6 44.3
Starting Stations: Ribe Recharge Station x60 10.5
Starting Jumpships:  30 15
Starting Dropships:  0
Starting Small Craft: 240 2.4
Starting Fighters: 4800 24
Maintenance Value 126.638

Funds:
Starting Cash: 11.437
Income:         85
96.437


Expenses: 96.437
Maintenance: 12.664
Prototype Walkure CV (Variant Tyr) 3.475
Production Walkure CVx6         41.682
Prototype Heimdaller II 2.532
Refit 6xHeimdaller ->Heimdaller II -
Production Ribe Recharge Station x 60 10.5
Production Small Craft: 360 3.6
Production Fighters:  4200 21
Total:
Remainder .984



Lyran Commonwealth, Turn Ending 2380
Physical Assets:
Ending Shipyards: Alarion: 3/3  New Kyoto: 3/1  Tamar 1  Gibbs 1
Ending Warships:  Heimdaller II FFx6 30.444
Tyr CA x 6 44.3
Walkure CV x6 41.352
Ending Stations:                        Ribe Recharge Station x120 21
Ending Jumpships:  30 15
Ending Dropships:  0
Ending Small Craft: 600 6
Ending Fighters: 9000 45
Maintenance Value 203.096 (20.31)
Cash: 918M

Heimdaller-II FF

Code: [Select]

Heimdaller -II (Escort Carrier)

At the time the first Heimdaller class frigates were laid down, no one knew what shape the navy would take.
 As such, she was built for flexibility, able to fit into numerous roles, and with room for expansion.

In the face of massive enemy building programs, the decision was made to supplement the heavy gun and
missile armed ships of the original build plan with large numbers of heavy carriers.  Carrier formations, more
than gun-lines, can profit from advance warning of enemy vessels.  The Heimdaller’s already present Large
Naval Comm Scanner suite and relatively greater mobility lead her naturally to be pressed into this role.

A design study showed that the Heimdaller’s troop transport capacity and some of her missile armament could
be repurposed to add additional fighter carriage, as well as expansion of her drives to allow her to maintain
3G’s thrust.  Though the uprated drives required more maintenance than those originally installed, the
additional agility was considered worthwhile in a vessel whose role was to be the eyes and ears of the fleet.
The carriage of a reinforced wing of Shu class heavy fighters does not make the Heimdaller-V into a full-up
offensive strike unit, but it does give her more than enough fighter cover to sweep aside enemy scouting units, 
to blunt an incoming fighter strike, to support a heavy strike by the Fleet Carriers, or to give even a large
enemy warship hesitation before engaging.  If forced to fleet, the ability to generate 3 G’s of sustained thrust
allows Heimdaller to decline engagement against all but the fastest of enemy vessels – and no vessel faster
than her can expect to remain so after facing a division of fighters.

Heimdaller II (Escort Carrier)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Introduced: 2350
Mass: 240,000 tons
Length: 857 meters
Width:  133 meters
Height:  90 meters
Sail Diameter: 773 meters
Fuel: 2,000 tons (5,000)
Tons/Burn-day: 39.52
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 7
Heat Sinks: 960 (100%)
Structural Integrity: 50
Cost:  $5.063B

Armor
Fore: 24
Fore-Sides: 30
Aft-Sides: 30
Aft: 30

Cargo
Bay 1 (RBS): 40 Fighters, 10 Small Craft (5 Doors)
Bay 2 (LBS): 40 Fighters, 10 Small Craft (5 Doors)
Bay 3 (Aft):  25,517 Tons Cargo (1 Door)


DropShip Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (80 meters diameter)
Escape Pods: 30
Life Boats: 30

Crew:  529 (Includes Vehicle Crews and 1 Tech per 2 Spacecraft)

All Crew, Marines, Troops in 1st/2nd Class Quarters

Ammunition: 200 Barracuda Missiles
16000 AC/5 Rounds
16000 MG Rounds

Notes:
Large NCSS
Mounts 240 tons of Standard armor. 
100% of required heat sinks

Weapons:

Nose:
5 Barracuda (25 Rnds)
20 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)
20 MG (2000 Rnds)

Fore Left/Right:
5 Barracuda (25 Rnds)
20 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)
20 MG (2000 Rnds)

Broadside:
5 Barracuda (25 Rnds)
20 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)
20 MG (2000 Rnds)

Aft Left/Right:
5 Barracuda (25 Rnds)
20 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)
20 MG (2000 Rnds)

Rear:
5 Barracuda (25 Rnds)
20 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)
20 MG (2000 Rnds)

Walkure CV

Code: [Select]

Walkure (Carrier)

“The power of an air force is tremendous when there is nothing to oppose it.”
-Winston Churchill (Terran, 1874-1965)

The Walkure (Valkyrie) class fleet carrier was the last component of the Lyran ‘Naval Plan’.  Though carriers
had been held in abeyance while the Tyr class heavy cruisers were laid down, their promise was always latent,
but looming.

The continued success of the Free Rashalhauge pilots, with their handful of units and inexperience was enough
to finally convince the fleet command that the advent of heavy aerospace aviation had dawned.

Heavy line of battle ships, like the Tyr, would serve to protect the carriers, and to escort them.  But the primary
striking arm of the Lyran Navy was going to be found in the fighter bays of her carriers, which allowed the
navy to reach and strike opponents beyond their ability to retaliate – and often beyond their ability to even
detect their attacker.

The Walkure vessels began life as Tyr heavy cruisers – much like many of the first carriers of World War II.  By
removing the majority of the armament as well as some structural bracing unnecessary in a ship not intended
to trade blows in a wall of battle, the builders filled the vast weapons bays with four divisions of fighters, along
with a reinforced wing of long range patrol small craft to aid in air search.

Heavy fits of point defense weaponry, as well as 80 Barracuda tubes, serve to protect the Walkure from normal
scale fighter strikes, though they cannot defend her against her own deckloads.   Much like the ancient wet-
navy carriers, and like their namesakes, the Walkure choose the slain – but do not ride to battle alone.


Walkure (CV)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Introduced: 2372
Mass: 750,000 tons
Length: 1207 meters
Width:  342 meters
Height:  220 meters
Sail Diameter: 983 meters
Fuel: 5,000 tons (10,000)
Tons/Burn-day: 39.52
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Sail Integrity: 5
KF Drive Integrity: 16
Heat Sinks: 1,120 (100%)
Structural Integrity: 80
Cost:  $6.947

Armor
Fore: 78
Fore-Sides: 83
Aft-Sides: 88
Aft:108

Cargo
Bay 1 (RBS):  360 Fighters, 12 Small Craft (7 Doors)
Bay 2 (LBS):  360 Fighters, 12 Small Craft (7 Doors)
Bay 3 (Aft):  107,433 Tons Cargo (2 Doors)


DropShip Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (180 meters diameter)
Escape Pods: 100
Life Boats: 100

Crew:  1,798

All Crew, Marines in 1st/2nd Class Quarters

Ammunition: 400 Barracuda Missiles
  16000 AC/5 Rounds
32000 MG Rounds

Notes:
Small NCSS
Mounts 1,200 tons of Standard armor. 
100% of required heat sinks
Quirks:  Easy to Maintain, Improved Communications, Poor Performance

Weapons:

Nose: Damage
10 Barracuda (50 Rnds) 20
40 MG (4000 Rnds)
40 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)

Fore Left/Right:
10 Barracuda (50 Rnds) 20
40 MG (4000 Rnds)
40 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)

Broadside:
10 Barracuda (50 Rnds) 20
40 MG (4000 Rnds)
40 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)

Aft Left/Right:
10 Barracuda (50 Rnds) 20
40 MG (4000 Rnds)
40 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)


Rear:
10 Barracuda (50 Rnds) 20
40 MG (4000 Rnds)
40 AC/5 (2000 Rnds)


[Alsadius]

Be aware that the Heimdaller-II in particular is extremely short on cargo for a carrier. The tonnage you allocate to fighters is ~35 tons per fighter, so perhaps 30 for missiles. That means a Heimdaller can launch exactly one strike with exactly one Barracuda per fighter - no reloads, no heavy missiles, no double-missile loads. The Walkure is a bit better with 66 tons per fighter, but still somewhat tight. By comparison, most other fighter-using ships have at least three times as much cargo per fighter - no other ship is broken out by what fraction is being used for what cargo, but as a reference point a simple cargo-per-fighter view gives 271 tons per fighter on a Quzhujian, 280 on an Atago, and 1162 on a Heracles. Even with half of that devoted to things other than fighter ammo, they all have at least twice as much ability to haul missiles as your Walkure.

It's a legal design, and I'll be happy to play the game out with it if you want, but be aware that your ability to launch anti-ship strikes might be much smaller than you're intending.

[marcussmythe]

Be aware that the Heimdaller-II in particular is extremely short on cargo for a carrier. The tonnage you allocate to fighters is ~35 tons per fighter, so perhaps 30 for missiles. That means a Heimdaller can launch exactly one strike with exactly one Barracuda per fighter - no reloads, no heavy missiles, no double-missile loads. The Walkure is a bit better with 66 tons per fighter, but still somewhat tight. By comparison, most other fighter-using ships have at least three times as much cargo per fighter - no other ship is broken out by what fraction is being used for what cargo, but as a reference point a simple cargo-per-fighter view gives 271 tons per fighter on a Quzhujian, 280 on an Atago, and 1162 on a Heracles. Even with half of that devoted to things other than fighter ammo, they all have at least twice as much ability to haul missiles as your Walkure.

It's a legal design, and I'll be happy to play the game out with it if you want, but be aware that your ability to launch anti-ship strikes might be much smaller than you're intending.

Assumptions Below:
1.)  Generic Fighter masses 50 tons
2.)  Generic Fighter Bay Handles fighters of up to 100 tons mass
3.)  Ergo, Fighter Bay Can handle 1 Generic Fighter and one 'load'.

-Edit-
I redesigned for more reloads and less fighters.  I may have limited time in the next few days, and dont want to slow up the works - so I just redesigned in response to your concerns rather than waiting for a back and forth.

IF my assumption above is wrong, and fighters cannot carry their missiles on-board while sitting in their fighter bay, then current (post redesign)mass fractions give Walkure two full loads, and Heimdaller 4 loads, assuming that each load is a max mass 2xBarracuda strike, and that every fighter is loaded, every fighter fires, and every fighter gets to make it back to base and get reloaded.  That seems sufficient.

IF my assumption above is correct, those strike numbers increase by 1 each, to 3/5, and my Commanders, Air Group get more willing to fire missiles at long, long ranges (assuming the tactical picture allows for a rearm and reattack)

[Maingunnery]

Free Worlds League, Turn 3 (2370)

The luxurious meeting chamber was silent as Captain-General Allan Marik entered the room. It was filled by the Admiralty, who were still nervous from the Irian Disaster. 

"Make it good gentlemen, the Army and their supporters have demanded that we spend more on them and less on the navy. They have had public successes, while the Navy allowed the Irian Disaster to occur. I have instructed the Admiralty find ways to prevent this from happening again and I do hope that you now have what I need."

[We understand Captain-General, currently the navy had been primarily tasked with discouraging our neighbors from invading and we like to keep up our production plans. We admit that we can't stand against the Terran Hegemony, but thankfully they don't seem to care. The admiralty has draw up plans in case they ever do invade, but the FWL isn't ready to implement either CASE OLYMPUS or CASE SPARTA, leaving them purely theoretical. And considering how fast the Hegemony is advancing, we might never be able to implement either plan effectively.
However we did find ways to improve our defenses against other nations. We have noticed that the Lyrans have created a network of recharge stations to allow for faster travel between critical areas. We like to propose we do the same, but on a more limited basis. By placing these new Eros class recharge stations at and between our core systems, we will be able to quickly move supplies and forces between them, strengthening both our defense and economy of this core sector. Currently the plan is to assemble these space stations in our yard systems, and between Loyalty-Atrues. Each station will have six recharge batteries, numerous missile launchers,  and enough marines to prevent a hostile take over.
Another measure originated from the findings of the investigation committee, which pointed out that the Irian Disaster could have been a lot less worse, if we had more fighters stationed at these vital facilities. So we advice doubling Aerospace Fighter production and stationed more squadrons at vital facilities.
The last measure that we wish to implement is to invest more in training until, the Navy has fully adjusted to fielding WarShips.

"These plans sound agreeable, do you have any other plans?"

Well Sir, the conflict with these Cappellans has shown us that we need faster DropShips, both to take the initiative and to protect themselves from enemy WarShips. The weaponry on the current Atalanta-class DropShip design is only slightly better then then that of a Saturn patrol DropShip, but the armor and thrust levels should give it a definite advantage. Also the design should function as a testbed for the recently acquired ferro-aluminium armor.

"Sounds like a good design, what can it transport?"

[It is designed to be semi-modular and as such the bays can be easily refitted to carry various forces. The carrier option can deploy 12 fighters, while the vehicles options can either transport a company of heavy tanks or a battalion of light vehicles. It has a decent cargo-hold for its size, and with six doors, it can rapidly disembark before lifting off again, perfect for quick operations.]

"Thanks, that is perfect ammunition to keep the army happy, please arrange for a large production run of these DropShips. However, I am still canceling the plans for a maximum production run, the Navy will have to do with seven WarShips.”

And with that the Captain-General left the room, allowing the admiralty to utter a collective sigh of relief.


The Budget

Code: [Select]

Turn 3, 2370

Available Shipyards
Atreus (3-3)
Irian (3-1)
Loyalty (3-1*)

Current Assets  Qty  Total
Fighters  935  4.675
Small Craft  174  1.740
Dropships  36  10.800
Jumpships  5  2.500
Phalanx (4631)  4  18.524
Heracles (8874)  12  106.488

 
(All Costs in Millions)
Banked  7.269
Budget  108.000

Maintenance %  = 11
Maintenance Costs = 15.920
Prototype Costs = 795
Shipyard Upgrades* = 1 -> 10.000
Research = 0
Repairs = 5.000


Construction
Fighters  x1315  6.575
Small Craft  x72  720
Dropships  x12  3.600
Jumpships  x7  3.500
Phalanx (4631) x1 4.631
Heracles (8874) x6 53.244
Eros Station (595) x8 4.760
Total Spent  110.192
Remaining   5.077





Eros-class Recharge Station:

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Eros Station
Mass:              750.000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        9.000,00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 0
      Maximum Thrust: 0
Energy Collecting Sail: (Integrity = 4)                                 68,00
Energy Storage Batteries:  (Quantity of 6)                         600.000,00
Structural Integrity: 1                                              7.500,00
Total Heat Sinks:    600 Single                                        421,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   3.060,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                750,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Armor Type:  Standard  (690 total armor pts)                         1.724,00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                115
   Fore-Left/Right:                  115/115
   Aft-Left/Right:                   115/115
   Aft:                                 115

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (6) with 6 doors                              1.200,00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 2 doors                                   80.224,00

Grav Decks #1 - 4:  (150-meter diameter)                               400,00
Escape Pods:  100 (7 tons each)                                        700,00

Crew and Passengers:
     46 Officers (46 minimum)                                          460,00
    149 Crew (149 minimum)                                           1.043,00
     70 Gunners (70 minimum)                                           490,00
    300 Marines                                                      1.500,00
     30 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Barracuda(200 msls)     Nose        20     20     20     20  100  6.900,00
10 Machine Gun(1000 rounds)Nose     2(20)     --     --     --    0     10,00
10 Barracuda(200 msls)     FL/R        20     20     20     20  200 13.800,00
10 Machine Gun(1000 rounds)FL/R     2(20)     --     --     --    0     20,00
10 Barracuda(200 msls)     AL/R        20     20     20     20  200 13.800,00
10 Machine Gun(1000 rounds)AL/R     2(20)     --     --     --    0     20,00
10 Barracuda(200 msls)     Aft         20     20     20     20  100  6.900,00
10 Machine Gun(1000 rounds)Aft      2(20)     --     --     --    0     10,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 600     750.000,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        595.005.000 C-Bills



Atalanta-class DropShip

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Atalanta DropShip (CV)
Mass:              5.000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        1.950,00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 6
      Maximum Thrust: 9
Structural Integrity: 12                                               120,00
Total Heat Sinks:    115 Single                                           ,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     306,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                 38,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Armor Type:  Ferro-aluminum  (818 total armor pts)                      43,00
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                205
   Left/Right Sides:                 204/204
   Aft:                                 205

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (12) with 6 doors                                1.800,00
           Cargo (1) with 2 doors                                      500,00

Life Boats:  6 (7 tons each)                                            42,00

Crew and Passengers:
      2 Officers (2 minimum)                                            20,00
      3 Crew (3 minimum)                                                21,00
      6 Gunners (6 minimum)                                             42,00
     24 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Autocannon/5(120 rounds) Nose     2(15)  2(15)     --     --    3     30,00
4 Machine Gun(200 rounds)  Nose      1(8)     --     --     --    0      3,00
1 Autocannon/5(40 rounds)  FL/R      1(5)   1(5)     --     --    2     20,00
4 Machine Gun(200 rounds)  FL/R      1(8)     --     --     --    0      6,00
1 Autocannon/5(40 rounds)  AL/R      1(5)   1(5)     --     --    2     20,00
4 Machine Gun(200 rounds)  AL/R      1(8)     --     --     --    0      6,00
3 Autocannon/5(120 rounds) Aft      2(15)  2(15)     --     --    3     30,00
4 Machine Gun(200 rounds)  Aft       1(8)     --     --     --    0      3,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                               Heat: 10       5.000,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        200.093.600 C-Bills


Naming Conventions:
Phalanx: Ancient weapons
Heracles: Men from Greek mythology
Atalanta-class: Women from Greek mythology
Eros-class: Local FWL cities


Doctrine:
Units are designed and crews trained with the ability to function independently or as a part of a squadron. This allows for strategic flexibility.
The Battlecruisers preferably deployed in groups of three or six, so as to produce a crushing force. Their own fighters are mostly used as a counter to enemy ASFs and Small Craft for extended Point Defense.
Lighter ships are generally fast and will avoid direct conflict if possible, act as raiders when deployed on their own or as scouts when part of a squadron with larger ships. However commerce raiding/deep strikes is only done during armed warfare with the aim of forcing the enemy back to their own territory.

[Smegish]

Well the Lyran fleet will be easy to find, just follow the scent of gouda.

[marcussmythe]

Well the Lyran fleet will be easy to find, just follow the scent of gouda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lexington_(CV-2)
" Originally designed as a battlecruiser, she was converted into one of the Navy's first aircraft carriers during construction..."
Amusingly, like Lexington, she retains capital armament (in this case, missile tubes, rather than 8" guns, but its the thought that counts), and is based on a battlecruiser hull.

[marcussmythe]

Maingunnery - very much like Atalanta.  And at 200M CBills instead of 300M, I may be tempted to buy some - though id be curious to know what the generic Small Dropship gets for that extra 100M.

[Maingunnery]

though id be curious to know what the generic Small Dropship gets for that extra 100M.

An actual decent set of weapons.  ;D

[Alsadius]

The one fight where reloads have mattered so far was Tikonov - the Feddies in particular made good use of the ability to launch two strikes with the ability to choose their ammo each time. (The Cappies also launched two strikes, but less effectively)

The "unused unit mass gives extra cargo" thing is a common house rule, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. The mass being available makes sense, but it won't be laid out like proper cargo usually is. How well could excess space in a fighter bay hold gigantic torpedoes? You could probably move some spare parts and food crates around, which would have some value, but it doesn't seem the equal of true cargo.

Well the Lyran fleet will be easy to find, just follow the scent of gouda.

Please, this is cheddar at worst. Fighters and missiles is a plausible doctrine - great for an alpha strike, though with less staying power than the alternatives. And if you're going to build carriers, might as well go all-in to saturate defences, right? It's far from the only doctrine, but it strikes me as one a real navy might use.

Maingunnery - very much like Atalanta.  And at 200M CBills instead of 300M, I may be tempted to buy some - though id be curious to know what the generic Small Dropship gets for that extra 100M.

The need to not worry about details - ships and stations alone are a lot of designs to juggle(especially as time passes and we get more of them), so adding designs of merchant JS, all the DS/fighter/small craft you use would just be a nightmare for you to track, and worse for me. You guys can write up fighter and DropShip designs, but I see them as flavour, not crunch.

[marcussmythe]

Fair, but -man- shes fast at 6/9!  Thats faster than most heavy and some medium fighters - and given that shes got the SI, the fuel, and the more efficient expansion drives of a large craft, shes got way more legs than a fighter.

If I can ever find the budget space for collars, Ive been contemplating Point-Defense Droppers - but may end up leaving that job for my poor, overworked small craft.  Cause man, what cant small craft do?  I even contemplated doing my CV as a small craft carrier - fighters in wartime, cargo haulers and colony pods and what-you-will in peace...

[marcussmythe]

The one fight where reloads have mattered so far was Tikonov - the Feddies in particular made good use of the ability to launch two strikes with the ability to choose their ammo each time. (The Cappies also launched two strikes, but less effectively)

The "unused unit mass gives extra cargo" thing is a common house rule, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. The mass being available makes sense, but it won't be laid out like proper cargo usually is. How well could excess space in a fighter bay hold gigantic torpedoes? You could probably move some spare parts and food crates around, which would have some value, but it doesn't seem the equal of true cargo.

Your world, were just livin in it.  :)  But I can see where your coming from.  As I said, already redesigned, and Im mentally making a virtue of necessity - the relatively more spacious heimdallers spot more fighter patrols and small strikes to clear out enemy screen, as befits their own screening role, and the big boys wind up for one or two big punches -  mental paralell is Midway.

Random thought - ‘Small Craft’ as 200 ton, (much) longer range heavy strike fighters?

[Maingunnery]

Fair, but -man- shes fast at 6/9!  Thats faster than most heavy and some medium fighters - and given that shes got the SI, the fuel, and the more efficient expansion drives of a large craft, shes got way more legs than a fighter.

If I can ever find the budget space for collars, Ive been contemplating Point-Defense Droppers - but may end up leaving that job for my poor, overworked small craft.  Cause man, what cant small craft do?  I even contemplated doing my CV as a small craft carrier - fighters in wartime, cargo haulers and colony pods and what-you-will in peace...

What about a beehive? A dropShip designed to carry a lot of small craft, very expendable.

Random thought - ‘Small Craft’ as 200 ton, (much) longer range heavy strike fighters?

The SC with introductory technology are about effective as medium fighters, but you need DHS and advanced weapons to get heavy fighter performance. This is because small craft spend relatively more weight on crew, engine and heatsinks. 

[marcussmythe]

What about a beehive? A dropShip designed to carry a lot of small craft, very expendable.

The SC with introductory technology are about effective as medium fighters, but you need DHS and advanced weapons to get heavy fighter performance. This is because small craft spend relatively more weight on crew, engine and heatsinks.

I’ll bow to your greater knowledge in this area - Ive spent exactly zero time with small craft design. 

My thought was more range than extra combat power - correct me if I am wrong, but doesnt a small craft get better fuel efficency and endurance than a fighter, though not to the degree exhibited by droppers/warships? Also, here, where a fighters main combat power is in missile carriage, Id anticipate a 200 ton ‘Bomber’ Small Craft might be able to carry as many or more missiles than a 50 ton generic fighter - perhaps moreso beyond that with a large cargo bay and the ‘bomb bay’ quirk!

[marcussmythe]

Please, this is cheddar at worst. Fighters and missiles is a plausible doctrine - great for an alpha strike, though with less staying power than the alternatives. And if you're going to build carriers, might as well go all-in to saturate defences, right? It's far from the only doctrine, but it strikes me as one a real navy might use.

One thing thats been a major internal debate for me was ‘gunships AND carriers’ or ‘Battlecarriers’. 

 Im -not- refitting Tyr into a pure carrier.  Like the USN, carriers get -escorts-, because some days something bad might go wrong, and a pure flattop fleet with no defenders is one mistake from going down in flames. 

Battlestar style BCVs might be ‘better’ - I actually think in my gut that they -are- better. 
But having two different types of units gives me flexibility, and makes the opponents decision making harder - because the jump footprint of 3 CVs looks the same as the footprint of 3BCs, but they mean different things and demand very different responses on the part of the defender.

That and I really want an interesting-on-paper navy, and this is the coolest thing to me that fit the needs of the Lyran Navy as I saw them.

[Vition2]

Really the biggest issue with a pure carrier is the launch and recovery speed.  It'll take your Walkure, with 720 ASF, roughly 25 minutes to launch them.  Then recovery will take more than 2 hours.  And a full recovery and launch sequence will take about 2.5 hours - that's a lot of time, especially for a slow warship.

I'll admit that this is one area I tend to ignore when it comes to fluff, as to me it doesn't entirely make sense, as properly made launch bays should be able to launch full wings or stars of fighters through a single door - granted, recovery would still be a major PITA.  But rules as written, that's what you are looking at (you can shorten the launch speed, but recovery is not malleable according to the rules).  That said, this is Alsadius' universe, so he might be willing to give leeway to this issue.

[Alsadius]

Random thought - ‘Small Craft’ as 200 ton, (much) longer range heavy strike fighters?

My house rule for fighter missiles is that each 5 tons of missile takes up one bomb hardpoint, so effectively fighters can carry their own weight in capital missiles(though with extreme mobility penalties, of course). Do small craft get hardpoints? I haven't looked at their construction rules in ages.

One thing thats been a major internal debate for me was ‘gunships AND carriers’ or ‘Battlecarriers’. 

 Im -not- refitting Tyr into a pure carrier.  Like the USN, carriers get -escorts-, because some days something bad might go wrong, and a pure flattop fleet with no defenders is one mistake from going down in flames. 

Battlestar style BCVs might be ‘better’ - I actually think in my gut that they -are- better. 
But having two different types of units gives me flexibility, and makes the opponents decision making harder - because the jump footprint of 3 CVs looks the same as the footprint of 3BCs, but they mean different things and demand very different responses on the part of the defender.

That and I really want an interesting-on-paper navy, and this is the coolest thing to me that fit the needs of the Lyran Navy as I saw them.

I can hardly fault you for following the Rule of Cool. TBH, I think we're all doing that a little bit, and part of the reason for the narrative combat is that I explicitly want to discourage munchkin tactics. If I mess with the game rules a bit and don't tell you precisely how things work, you can't easily min-max, and there'll be a more realistic(and interesting) set of designs that result. I think we all know that with canonical rules, the only real choices are "four corners" designs(i.e., Nose/Aft/LBS/RBS festooned with 12xAMS to kill Killer Whales by the hundred, plus a couple hundred anti-fighter guns, while FL/FR/AL/AR carry the capital-scale weapons), and that gets boring fast. 

Really the biggest issue with a pure carrier is the launch and recovery speed.  It'll take your Walkure, with 720 ASF, roughly 25 minutes to launch them.  Then recovery will take more than 2 hours.  And a full recovery and launch sequence will take about 2.5 hours - that's a lot of time, especially for a slow warship.

I'll admit that this is one area I tend to ignore when it comes to fluff, as to me it doesn't entirely make sense, as properly made launch bays should be able to launch full wings or stars of fighters through a single door - granted, recovery would still be a major PITA.  But rules as written, that's what you are looking at (you can shorten the launch speed, but recovery is not malleable according to the rules).  That said, this is Alsadius' universe, so he might be willing to give leeway to this issue.

Marcus PM'd me about this before posting his designs, and running the numbers I felt no need to change the canon rules on doors regarding launch rates. I didn't realize recovery was so much slower than launch, however. (I feel like this game is going to lead to me memorizing most of StratOps...)

20-30 minutes to launch a strike seems very reasonable to me. Two hours to recover one is...lengthy. Not impossibly so, but it'll put a serious limit on what the fighters can do in battle. Midway-style attacks when the planes are refueling and re-arming start getting to be a serious nightmare for the planners in any navy with carriers that big. I think this may be part of why canon designs seem to mostly prefer battlestars over pure CV/BB designs - there's no economies of scale on fighter bays, and door limits mean that mass fighter operations are painful. (Also, fleet fights are rare in canon for gameplay reasons, which means that each unit wants to be individually capable of a wide range of roles, and an on-board fighter wing helps with that).

No rules change re: recovery times for now, but I'll think about it.

[Maingunnery]

My house rule for fighter missiles is that each 5 tons of missile takes up one bomb hardpoint, so effectively fighters can carry their own weight in capital missiles(though with extreme mobility penalties, of course). Do small craft get hardpoints? I haven't looked at their construction rules in ages.

TM p217
Unit Restrictions: Only Fixed-Wing Support Vehicles may install external stores hardpoints. (Conventional and aerospace fighters receive them free.)

[marcussmythe]

TM p217
Unit Restrictions: Only Fixed-Wing Support Vehicles may install external stores hardpoints. (Conventional and aerospace fighters receive them free.)

Thus, as Small Craft are neither Fixed Wing Support Vehicles or Conventional/Aerospace Fighters, they may not mount hardpoints, RAW.

[marcussmythe]

My house rule for fighter missiles is that each 5 tons of missile takes up one bomb hardpoint, so effectively fighters can carry their own weight in capital missiles(though with extreme mobility penalties, of course). Do small craft get hardpoints? I haven't looked at their construction rules in ages.

I can hardly fault you for following the Rule of Cool. TBH, I think we're all doing that a little bit, and part of the reason for the narrative combat is that I explicitly want to discourage munchkin tactics. If I mess with the game rules a bit and don't tell you precisely how things work, you can't easily min-max, and there'll be a more realistic(and interesting) set of designs that result. I think we all know that with canonical rules, the only real choices are "four corners" designs(i.e., Nose/Aft/LBS/RBS festooned with 12xAMS to kill Killer Whales by the hundred, plus a couple hundred anti-fighter guns, while FL/FR/AL/AR carry the capital-scale weapons), and that gets boring fast. 

Marcus PM'd me about this before posting his designs, and running the numbers I felt no need to change the canon rules on doors regarding launch rates. I didn't realize recovery was so much slower than launch, however. (I feel like this game is going to lead to me memorizing most of StratOps...)

20-30 minutes to launch a strike seems very reasonable to me. Two hours to recover one is...lengthy. Not impossibly so, but it'll put a serious limit on what the fighters can do in battle. Midway-style attacks when the planes are refueling and re-arming start getting to be a serious nightmare for the planners in any navy with carriers that big. I think this may be part of why canon designs seem to mostly prefer battlestars over pure CV/BB designs - there's no economies of scale on fighter bays, and door limits mean that mass fighter operations are painful. (Also, fleet fights are rare in canon for gameplay reasons, which means that each unit wants to be individually capable of a wide range of roles, and an on-board fighter wing helps with that).

No rules change re: recovery times for now, but I'll think about it.

One thing Im considering - if long reload times are a problem - is either doctrine centered around long range detection, strike, reload, restrike (strikes were multiple hours apart in WW2, and the above is basically the WW2 doctrine) OR a Doctrine based around high speed engagements, which by their nature imply a single exchange of fire coupled with long reengagement times.  This -would- expose the CVs to enemy direct fires - so CVs would still need reasonable SI and Armor (glad I was conservative, there!), but in a high speed engagement, the shattering effect of a single pulse of missile fire from a full deckload of fighters will show better, by comparison, than the greater weight of fire over time of guns.

In the field, probably would prefer profile 1 (long range detection and strike, reload, restrike) but if counterdetected without time to reload, would go to profile 2 (high speed engagement followed by reload cycles and manuver - fighters would act almost like Harrington verse missile pods in such a profile)

[Alsadius]

Yup, those doctrines seem to fit nicely with the ships you have. It'll leave you less flexible than a gunship, of course, but you knew that already.

[marcussmythe]

Yup, those doctrines seem to fit nicely with the ships you have. It'll leave you less flexible than a gunship, of course, but you knew that already.

"Or else these drinks would cost half as much."  :)

One think I'm trying to do is think hard about doctrine.  One place the modern USN 'gets it wrong', at least according to some people I've read, is that when presented with a tactical problem they always reach for an engineering solution.  Thats well and good if you have the time and money to out-enginner every problem.  But you usually dont, and usually, there is SOME tactical doctrine you can employ that gets you in with a chance.

If there is no tactical doctrine that allows you a chance to win with your navy, explain to congress that you need either the budget to meet their requirements, or the requirements to meet their budget.

[Alsadius]

The United Hindu Collective is completing its network of Prathams, installing one at each zenith and nadir point in Collective space to ensure detection of any visiting ships along with defence for merchants. The usual array of small craft round out the Collective's purchases this round.

Maintenance (@150%): $5.294B
16x Pratham: $8.08B
120x small craft: $1.2B
1200x fighter: $6B
Research: $426m

[Jester Motley]

[Edit: Corrected new ship TRO Workup sections, adjusted budget, removed espionage, bought 300 more ASF]
Sorry if I'm holding things up.  RL throwing a 4th party eats time, and when you're one of the last to get your turn info, it doesn't give you lots of time to do things.

Crunchy bits for Turn 3 for Caps:
Turn 2 Losses (net):
1x Quzhujian
2x Quinru Zhe
117x Fighters
500 million in repairs

Turn 2 gains (net):
1x jumpship
3B in surplus funds found in private accounts of arrested and convicted war profiteers who colluded with the second assistant under-secretary of the Bureau of Orbital Habitat Revitalization, Restaurant Health Inspections, Naval Veteran's Pet Health Care, Mental Assistance, and Crematorium Licensing.

Budget: 84.5B (82B +3B -.5B)
Maitenance: $10,681 (owed: 8,959B @10%)  Fighters @300%,

Design:
Total:  $8,387B
     Varient of BoB (Bringer of Beer): приведение выстрелов (privedeniye vystrelov/Bringer of Shots): $2,328M (50% of new varient ship cost $4,655M)  [This we may need to talk about...  I ripped out the passenger cabins, the plus grav decks, and some cargo for 1 point of cruise and many fighter bays and reduced the sensors from large to small...  That's fair to the varient rules you laid out, and seems non-cheddar to me, but I'm not exactly non-biased.  Also did I cost this right?]
     妻子愤怒的地狱 Qīzi fènnù dì dìyù (Hell of a Wife's Wrath):  $6,070
(Ships also known as BoS[hots] and Wrath)

New Construction:
x900 Fighters
x100 Small Craft
x5     Chongzhi (recharge stations)
x5     BoShots
x5     Wrath

Research: $71M

----
Totals for Turn 3:
---
ASF:  2623  (1714 on shipboard duty, 909 on planetary defense/shipyard defense/training duty)
SC:   1267  (1004 on shipboard/base duty, 263 on planetary defense/shipyard defense/training duty/customs)
DS:     88    (4 on shipboard duty, 84 on planetary defense/shipyard defense/training duty/detached duty/assault)
JS:        4
---
Chongzhi (Recharge stations):    27
Qinru Zhe (Raider):                     1
Quzhujian (Defensive Destroyer): 3
BoB          (Fleet Collier/Spyship): 1
BoS[hots] (Defensive CVL):          5
Wrath       (Defensive Frigate):     5

Fighters @3x maintenance

New Designs:

Varient to пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer)
Varient Cost: $4,635
Named: приведение выстрелов (privedeniye vystrelov/Bringer of Shots)
[BoS, BoShots, Shots are fine for reference]

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: приведение выстрелов (privedeniye vystrelov/Bringer of Shots) --- Fleet Light Carrier (CVL)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $4,635,224,000.00
Magazine Cost: $176,000.00
BV2: 5,668

Mass: 250,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
80 AC 2

Class/Model/Name: приведение выстрелов (privedeniye vystrelov/Bringer of Shots) --- Fleet Light Carrier (CVL)
Mass: 250,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 45,000
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 625
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (7 Integrity) 113,125
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 43
Structural Integrity: 65 16,250
Total Heat Sinks: 345 Single
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 3125 points 1,275
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 162 pts Standard 300
Fore: 31
Fore-Left/Right: 25/25
Aft-Left/Right: 25/25
Aft: 31

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
20 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 200
75 Crew in 1st Class Quarters 750
20 Gunners and Others in 1st Class Quarters 200
550 Bay Personnel 0
1st Class Passengers 0
2nd Class Passengers 0
Steerage Passengers 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
10 AC 2 Nose 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 FR 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 RBS 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 AR 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 FL 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 LBS 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 AL 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
10 AC 2 Aft 10 20 (2-C) Long 60

Ammo Rounds Mass
AC 2 Ammo 8000 177.78

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
10 Bay Small Craft 2,000 2
250 Bay Fighter 37,500 8
31,500 Cargo, Standard 31,500 2
NCSS Small 100


妻子愤怒的地狱 Qīzi fènnù dì dìyù (Hell of a Wife's Wrath)
Cost: $6,070
[Wrath for reference]

Code: [Select]


Class/Model/Name: 妻子愤怒的地狱 Qīzi fènnù dì dìyù (Hell of a Wife's Wrath)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $6,070,534,000.00
Magazine Cost: $68,777,600.00
BV2: 73,782

Mass: 500,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
12 Naval Laser 55
24 Capital Launcher Barracuda
24 Capital Launcher White Shark
90 AC 2
16 Naval AC 25

Class/Model/Name: 妻子愤怒的地狱 Qīzi fènnù dì dìyù (Hell of a Wife's Wrath)
Mass: 500,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 90,000
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 1,250
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (12 Integrity) 226,250
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 55
Structural Integrity: 135 67,500
Total Heat Sinks: 3549 Single 3,080
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 2500 points 1,020
Fire Control Computers: 2,272
Armor: 604 pts Standard 1,300
Fore: 124
Fore-Left/Right: 100/100
Aft-Left/Right: 100/100
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
42 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 420
103 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 721
97 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 679
188 Bay Personnel 0
1st Class Passengers 0
2nd Class Passengers 0
Steerage Passengers 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
10 Naval Laser 55 Nose 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda Nose 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher White Shark Nose 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
20 AC 2 Nose 20 40 (4-C) Long 120
3 Naval AC 25 FR 255 750 (75-C) Long-C 9,000
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 Capital Launcher White Shark FR 45 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 360
10 AC 2 FR 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
2 Naval AC 25 RBS 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 Capital Launcher White Shark RBS 45 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 360
10 AC 2 RBS 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
3 Naval AC 25 AR 255 750 (75-C) Long-C 9,000
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 Capital Launcher White Shark AR 45 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 360
10 AC 2 AR 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
3 Naval AC 25 FL 255 750 (75-C) Long-C 9,000
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 Capital Launcher White Shark FL 45 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 360
10 AC 2 FL 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
2 Naval AC 25 LBS 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 Capital Launcher White Shark LBS 45 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 360
10 AC 2 LBS 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
3 Naval AC 25 AL 255 750 (75-C) Long-C 9,000
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 Capital Launcher White Shark AL 45 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 360
10 AC 2 AL 10 20 (2-C) Long 60
2 Naval Laser 55 Aft 170 110 (11-C) Extreme-C 2,200
2 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 20 40 (4-C) Extreme-C 180
2 Capital Launcher White Shark Aft 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 240
10 AC 2 Aft 10 20 (2-C) Long 60

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 25 Ammo 1440 864.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 170 5,100.00
Capital Launcher White Shark Ammo 170 6,800.00
AC 2 Ammo 10800 240.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
12 Bay Small Craft 2,400 2
64 Bay Fighter 9,600 8
13,500 Cargo, Standard 13,500 2
NCSS Small 100


Major and Minor doctrine changes to be posted.  (want to post the crunchy bits now for review)
Fluff to be posted.

[Smegish]

You seem to be missing the Cargo, Small Craft and Fighter Bays for those ships

[Jester Motley]

Cap Con Naming Conventions:
As a diverse polity of many languages and cultures, the Capellan's have elected to embrace both our Russian and Chinese heritages.  As such, Capellan warship's design will be named for the cultural heritage reflected in their design and purpose.  As we at the Naval Office of Ship Design and Vending Machine replenishment are known both for our sense of brotherhood and our sense of humor, we invite our senior leadership to submit for review, names for our new designs and sister ships.  Suggestions found lacking in humor and brotherhood will be duly reported to the Ministry of Truth and Hampering All Things.

[OOC:  I like puns, I love humor.  Feel free to name ships in either fashion.  Failing that I will report you for reeducation in our wonderful camps of love and brotherhood.]
[OOC:  All BoShots will be named for famous Vodkas, all squadrons for famous cocktails and liquors.  Whiskey Wing Leader calling Gin Wing Leader, we'll cover your approach, over.  Or, again, I'll report you for reducation, and I should warn you, I think they substituted gasoline for the vodka...  No one could tell the difference apparently.]
[OOC:  All Wrath ships should be named for those things [we] husbands forget to do.  "Didn't do the dishes", "Forgot our Anniversary", "Slept with her Sister" (only for a ship doomed to die a very tragic, very bad death...)]
[OOC:  *shrug* I'm here to design ships and have fun.  Name things as you will, I'll swing.]

Character Names:
Boris.
Lee.

:)

Already used in correspondance or otherwise, but feel free to use them as well:

The Honorable Second Assistant Under-secretary's Under-Study for Third Secretary of Naval Building and Kleenex supply Admiral of the Yellow Lord Secondous Hung Wai Lo the 3rd.
Honerable Captian Rcie Gorshkov
Venerable Admiral of the Blood, Valentine Caponyev
Venerable Admiral of the Knife, Jack Burton
Captain Jackson Sparr Row
Honorable Admiral Ravil Maslov
Honorable Captain Boris Carlisle
Venerable Admiral Demetri Dish
Gao-shiao-zhang Sum Gui Di
Jiang-jun Yuan Yin
Yi-si-ben-bing Wu Yu Go Nouw
Shia-ben-bing Yu Tsing Lo
Shia-ben-bing Tao Chao
Venerable Admiral Le Chia Pet


Doctrine:

Doctrine Shift:  Fighters are supreme.

General Engagement Doctrine:
Primus:  Fighters will close to, and engage enemy fighters first and fore most.  ASF will screen for ASF first, and always.
  -  As such, primary fleet armament for fighters will be Barracuda Missiles.  Double when possible.
  -  Fleets will procure and arm themselves with Barracuda missiles for all but one single strike of "heavy" ordnance.  Fleets that can't muster at least 2 full loads of 2 Barracuda per fight of ASF will arm themselves entirely of said missile.
  -  Small craft will be armed and prepared for anti-fighter roles primarily.  Small Craft will fly CAP for fleet and SWACs for both ASF and SWACs.
  -  Do not engage inside a supporting forces "basket" of anti-air.  Fire at range, or maneuver for range or effect.

Secondus:  Once ASF domination has occurred, remaining ASF will join with screening forces to engage enemy warships and stations.
  -  Fighters will launch remaining Barracuda in coordinated wave strikes.
  -  Screening forces will coordinate with Fighters as possible.

Tertius:  Disengage.
  -  In the event that the opponent is to strong, or otherwise holds an obvious advantage, maneuver where possible, retreat where not.  Let our honorable ancestor inform us of this... "On Dangerous ground, Maneuver."
  -  Only when defending a Primary Defensive target (see communo packet J-25161666-subsection(19)-bullet(b)), hereby designated "deadly ground" will a warship or fleet hold their ground.  Again, let our honorable ancestor inform us of this... "On deadly ground, fight."

Defensive/at home engagement doctrine:
  -  Forces marked for defense will stay on defense.  Units such as "Quzhujian," "приведение выстрелов (privedeniye vystrelov/Bringer of Shots)," and "妻子愤怒的地狱 Qīzi fènnù dì dìyù (Hell of a Wife's Wrath)" are "defense" units for use in, and among, the Capellan polity.  They will utilize the recharge stations being established to rapidly respond to aggression.  They will do so in coordianted groups, utilizing fighter engagements to clear supporting ASF first, and only then turning to fleet engagement with warship and fighter.
  -  In all other ways, defensive forces will coordinate and engage with ASF, utilizing ASF as the primary screening element.
  -  While "total war" is in effect for _opposition_ territory, it is countra-dictaned within Capellan or former Capellan territory.

Raiding Doctrine [This is changing!!!!!]:
  -  Raiding will largely be conducted in deep raids against soft targets.  Systems with little and few esablished defenses will be hit first and primary.
  -  Raiding will be done at range.  All engagements should seek to push the range envelope, either engaging in long range weapons play or strategic use of ASF when available.
  -  It is better to not strike, than to strike and lose more.  Caution is the by-word.  That said, if engaging, engage for maximal damage.
  -  Finally, and _most_ important.  While we should seek to reduce the loss of civilian and non-combatant life where-ever possible, any nation that has attacked us will be engaged in "total war."  Civilian infrastructure will be engaged.  Any system raided, that is not properly guarded or warded, will be laid waste in its entirety of space constructs.  To be clear, planetary bombardment is still strictly in the hands of the army, and will be done only by direct request by an appropriate level army officer with the right codes.  However.  Normal precautions and failsafes have been _reduced_ and we should expect much more call for fire from our ground troops, especially in raid situations involving them.


Nuclear munitions:
  -  It is with sadden, but resolute heart that we announce this change in policy-
  -  For fleet engagements in local space, nuclear weapons may be engaged.
    --  Nuclear weapons may _only_ be engaged against _war_ targets.  No civilian targets are allowed.
    --  No planetary targets are authorized as of yet.
  -  For fleet engagements in enemy space, nuclear weapons may be engaged but only with limited targets.
    --  No civilian targets, period.  Collateral damage is not acceptable.
    --  Naval targets only.  Shipyards are naval targets, however but must be given time to evacuate civilians.  If the honorable window for proper evactuation can not be met for any reason, conventional weapons _only_ may be used.  However, conventional weapons are allowed against civiliains.
  -  Nuclear "small-vehicle scuttling" charges:  It is not our wish, or desire, for any of our brave warriors to find the end of their service to the great society, but should they find themselves facing that end, we would have them have only the best of tools to end their service with.  As such, for limited purposes, in dire situations, we authorize the arming of ASF and Capital ships with "Kamikazi" style nuclear charges.  These suicide charges will automatically guarantee citizenship for one's spouse or next of kin.

---
Fluff will have to wait, sorry, it's 3am already...  :(

[Jester Motley]

You seem to be missing the Cargo, Small Craft and Fighter Bays for those ships

Well foo me.  You're right.

The Spreadsheet is refusing to include those...  :(

For quick ref (it's 3 am here, I'll try to fix this tomorrow officially):

Wrath has 12.8kt cargo, 64 Fighter bays, 12 Small Craft.
BoS has 31kt of cargo, 250 Fighter bays, 10 Small Craft.

I'll fix the official screeds when I get a chance tomorrow.


[edit] Downloaded the latest sheet, and wrangled it into giving all the details.  Edited turn 3 post with the changes.

[Alsadius]

You're not holding anything up at this point. We still have one or two players outstanding, and of course I only just started on NPCs and still have combat to write.

Your variant costing and design seems correct. And FYI, I decided a while back that covert ops wasn't something I wanted to include in the game(aside from ships like the Bug-Eye). Consider it to be something that's happening in the background - it's there, but it's coming out of somebody else's budget. So you have another billion to throw around.

[Alsadius]

The Taurian Concordat has once again become aware of the outside world as of late, and the outside world is a surprisingly terrible place. The Concordat's defences are not nearly sufficient to deter attack from the Federated Suns or the Capellan Confederation, so a brief retrenchment is in order. The fleet can be used for raiding unarmed targets well enough, but planetary defences are clearly not on an adequate scale, and cannot be built on an adequate scale across the entire realm in the short term. As such, the plan is to create a secure base at Taurus, where the Concordat can be sure that its capital, primary shipyard, and largest industrial hub are safe against any plausible attack.

The core of this plan is the Marathon-class defence station. Intended as a planetary defence station, the Marathon mounts no fighter bays, no sensor systems, and only minimal cargo and fuel loads. What it does mount is a blistering array of weaponry, intended to force any attacker to sit up and take notice. A massive battery of long-range lasers allow the station to attack enemies within the engagement range of any known weapon system, and ten large autocannons allow the station to duke it out with heavy gunships if need be. Supporting these weapons are eighty multi-role missile launchers, which are both the station's main anti-fighter weapon and a serious threat to enemy ships in their own right.

Horrified by the tales of hundreds of missiles firing at once, the Taurians also covered every available surface of the Marathon with point-defence guns, in quantities never before seen on a single installation. The advanced fire control needed to allow a station like this to fire all its weapons simultaneously takes up almost a tenth of the Marathon's mass, and as something well outside the usual Taurian manufactures, the system is still balky and prone to failure - battles raged as to whether the ludicrous mass requirements were worthwhile, or whether more weapons should be installed instead. However, as capital weapons were in short supply even with a rapid expansion in the nation's armaments industries, the heavy fire control system was utilized instead. The unusual fore-and-aft split of the large weapons was chosen both to maximize efficient use of the station's surface area(and thereby minimize the need for advanced fire control), as well as being designed for maximal effect in case of a fly-by attack like the one at Irian.

The result is a station that is both far cheaper and far more dangerous than the Independence-class corvettes in the fleet, and which should ensure the Taurians a secure base of operations even in the face of a determined attack by a serious enemy. To aid this, the size of the fighter fleet was doubled, and new training programs were instituted to give the Taurians every possible edge.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Marathon
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $621,075,025.00
Magazine Cost: $28,920,000.00
BV2: 45,424

Mass: 145,000
K-F Drive System: None
Power Plant: Station-Keeping Drive
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
10 Naval AC 20
80 Capital Launcher AR-10
20 Naval Laser 55
180 Machine Gun (IS)

Class/Model/Name: Marathon
Mass: 145,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 1,740
Thrust
Safe: 0
Maximum: 0
Controls: 145
K-F Hyperdrive: None (0 Integrity) 0
Jump Sail: (0 Integrity) 0
Structural Integrity: 1 1,450
Total Heat Sinks: 3900 Single 3,797
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 2000 points 408
Fire Control Computers: 13,418
Armor: 435 pts Standard 543
Fore: 100
Fore-Left/Right: 60/60
Aft-Left/Right: 60/60
Aft: 95

Dropship Capacity: 0 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 50 350
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
37 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 370
37 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 259
140 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 980
40 Bay Personnel in 2nd Class Quarters 280

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
10 Naval AC 20 Nose 600 2000 (200-C) Long-C 25,000
20 Capital Launcher AR-10 FL 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 5,000
20 Capital Launcher AR-10 FR 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 5,000
20 Capital Launcher AR-10 AL 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 5,000
20 Capital Launcher AR-10 AR 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 5,000
20 Naval Laser 55 Aft 1700 1100 (110-C) Extreme-C 22,000
30 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 60 (6-C) Short-PDS 15
30 Machine Gun (IS) FL 60 (6-C) Short-PDS 15
30 Machine Gun (IS) FR 60 (6-C) Short-PDS 15
30 Machine Gun (IS) AL 60 (6-C) Short-PDS 15
30 Machine Gun (IS) AR 60 (6-C) Short-PDS 15
30 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 60 (6-C) Short-PDS 15

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 20 Ammo 500 200.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 400 12,000.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 400 20,000.00
Capital Launcher White Shark Ammo 400 16,000.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 24000 120.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
4,200 Cargo, Standard 4,200 2
8 Bay Small Craft 1,600 2

BUDGET: $12B
Carried Over: $2B
Maintenance (@120%): $1.506B
Marathon R&D: $621m
10x Marathon: $6.21B (all deployed to Taurus orbit, near the shipyards)
540x fighter: $2.7B
80x small craft: $800m
Research: $163m

EDIT: I just noticed I had $2B carried over from turn 2. Let's up that to $363m of research, and add 6x DropShip - they can be used as system-defence units as well, but they can also move to more useful roles once the nation gets off its back foot.

[marcussmythe]

And the Star League looked upon Taurus, and said ‘wahoo!  That looks great!  Lets do that, only with crazy Star League level resources!’

And the Caspar Network was born...


Seriously, Ive had a defsat I keep waffling on building - very different approach - but that looks like an even better solution.  Well done.  Remind me not to attack Taurus.

[Jester Motley]

Turn 3 fluff:

"Jack!  Jack Burton!  What brings your hidebound face around these parts?"

"I just saw the new ship designs Ed, and I'm worried.  So many fighters..."

"We've been over this.  Just look at those poor Rasalhague buggers.  Our analysts have poured over those two engagements.  With just 200 fighters in each one, they managed to inflict significantly greater damage than what they cost.  In the first engagement, they did nearly 2 billion in damages, while losing only 3 quarters of a billion.  That's nearly 3 to 1.  And the second engagement was even better!  More than 4 Billion in damages for the loss of 1.  Four to one Jack.  We need that kind of damage curve desperately.  We lost half of our standing fleet.  And did less in damages than we lost.  We have to take a break from our raiding, and put in some solid defensive forces."

"I know Ed.  We do this dance every time, and something just doesn't feel right about it.  Bah, maybe its that new design's name...  The Hell of...  what was it again?"

"The Hell of a Wife's Wrath.  Chinese have a lot of hells, what can I say?  I understand the name came about after a holiday party, where one of the designers was caught in a... delicate situation, by his wife."

"So he named it that then?"

"No...  one of the other designers named it that, after witnessing the incident.  He also suggested the Hell of being Cut to Pieces, the Hell of Boiling Oil, and the Hell of being skinned alive.  But most of us felt Wrath summed it up best.  Besides, I know you, I know the Bringer of Shots was your work.  Here, a toast for you."

Ed throws a bottle at a surprised Jack.  "Woah, nice catch."

With a million watt smirk, Jack retorts, "Its all in the reflexes.  Now lets drink."