So why Taurian mech build dysfunction?

[Jeyar123]

Hi there!

Please I am really just curious and don't want anyone being upset, but I do have an earnest question. Why does the Taurian Concordat, which have been making mechs for centuries, and still even in 3151 seems to have mech factories have a faction based penalty forming mech units?

The flip question is how do they get rid of it?

Honest - I got some rules and was just so disconnected by it and am looking to reconnect.

Please help. No nasty and trolling.

[ANS Kamas P81]

What rules did you mean?

[Red Pins]

Welcome!  No trolls here.

Can you give us a book reference?  Page number?  sarna.net article?

[Diamondshark]

Dominions Divided is the one which talks about the ilClan-era Taurians, but I can't find anything about any such thing in there - not even fluff (that's mostly about the upcoming reunification and trying to undo past in-universe stupidity), let alone the actual rules section. I could be missing it, but it sure doesn't seem to be there.

[Baldur Mekorig]

Dominions Divided is the one which talks about the ilClan-era Taurians, but I can't find anything about any such thing in there - not even fluff (that's mostly about the upcoming reunification and trying to undo past in-universe stupidity), let alone the actual rules section. I could be missing it, but it sure doesn't seem to be there.

I think he refers to the Taurian Concordat starting abilities in the Inner Sphere at War game in the IO book.

[DOC_Agren]

The only answer I can think of that might answer your question is for years the TDF was more a defensive force then offensive.

[Jeyar123]

Yeah, actually mentioned in another book as well. I think alternate eras.

[Maelwys]

It may simply be a reason to explain why the Taurians hadn't managed to overwhelm/become the arms dealer for the Inner Sphere. Their production, theoretically, could be quite a bit, and while I don't recall anything every saying that they have a hard time producing mechs specifically, it may have come about as trying to figure out why they aren't doing better.

If is what I'm thinking of, you basically pay 25% more in cost for Mechs for the Taurians in 3025 in ISAW

[DOC_Agren]

If is what I'm thinking of, you basically pay 25% more in cost for Mechs for the Taurians in 3025 in ISAW

is the the Far Lookers fund raising?

[Maelwys]

Well no. Its the Inner Sphere At War Ruleset. The Interstellar Operations ruleset gives the starting abilities for the various factions set in 3025. Like the Lyrans getting "Merchant Princes." One of the abilities the Taurians get is "Production Issues: BattleMechs" so they pay 25% more in terms of the game currency (RP) for BattleMechs.

[glitterboy2098]

It may simply be a reason to explain why the Taurians hadn't managed to overwhelm/become the arms dealer for the Inner Sphere. Their production, theoretically, could be quite a bit, and while I don't recall anything every saying that they have a hard time producing mechs specifically, it may have come about as trying to figure out why they aren't doing better.

If is what I'm thinking of, you basically pay 25% more in cost for Mechs for the Taurians in 3025 in ISAW

meaning its probably a penalty to reflect the Concordat's small size relative to the number of factories it had. perhaps consider it a limitation of their infrastructure network, that without having as many worlds to draw resources from, they have slower production.

[Maelwys]

Could be. They have it in 2786 as well, but it could just be "We have all these factories and can't afford to run them all"

[DOC_Agren]

Wasn't one of the TC issue being that they had to sell on the open market, because they could not afford to buy every Mech they build.

[Liam's Ghost]

meaning its probably a penalty to reflect the Concordat's small size relative to the number of factories it had. perhaps consider it a limitation of their infrastructure network, that without having as many worlds to draw resources from, they have slower production.

That would seem likely. The Taurians do produce a wide variety of machines without ever really growing their military.

Wasn't one of the TC issue being that they had to sell on the open market, because they could not afford to buy every Mech they build.

I don't think that's ever been specifically stated in canon, but it is a common fan theory.

[DOC_Agren]

I thought that came from the 1st 3050 TRO about them selling, but my books are packed at the moment

[Frabby]

Just a guess, but maybe it’s because the Taurians are 1) a periphery nation to begin with and 2) were probably the single most affected/targetted nation by the Star League’s deliberate de-industrialisation and "suffocating embrace" smothering policies following the Reunification War. Being paranoid isolationist ever after probably didn’t help their tech recovery efforts, to say nothing of achieving cutting edge.

[Jeyar123]

Okay, I'm not disagreeing, just summing up my raw reactions and why/how they formed.

1) So the first idea is the have a penalty because they make too much. I'm admitting to being surprised if this is the case due to all real world nations with powerful militaries producing more than they can purchase for themselves, and even striving to sell more to others, plus it sounds like a way to build up funds. However the flip side is I LOVE the idea that the TC making so much production that it distorts interstellar commerce. In fact that very hopeful joy is why I doubt this option far more than reason or the books worth of examples in universe that I would have thought suggested otherwise. Not saying it is wrong, just it FEELS to me too good to be true.

2) The second seems to be that since the TC is defensive they don't procure mechs? I am not sure I understand the conjecture, unless they are saying... Taurian a pacifists or something? I feel I don't understand this one and am misrepresenting it due to that.

3) Far lookers using the funds. I like the idea of this a lot, but HBS and IIRC the books from Stackpole surrounding that imply TC does less of this than FWL, MoC, CC and FS at different points (if you are someone who would do all the world counting at different times, most don't it seems). That also was a shocker that pulled a feeling of... not good, but has nothing to do with this idea, other than they are kind of opposites, plus TC has had his issue even before there were mechs (I figure that is just from being too literal and narrow reading on my part of the chart). If I expand this idea to say "corruption" then I'm even worse off oddly as there are other designations that would cover this. Also we had the issue before Far Lookers existed, and their actions seem to be ment, when reading, as an exception than the rule.

4) TC is periphery nation which was picked on and too paranoid. As I mostly feel revulsion from this idea it is likely getting closer (not anything against the poster, I'm talking about what the posit makes me feel). There is a little star - it suggests we are paranoid vs. Everyone which would make far more sense to me and feel infinitely more in tune with what the first two periphery books were putting down than the abomination that the TC was just paranoid vs. Suns. Also we've had many years of people explaining the TC wasn't picked on in any way on this site and others. Since no other faction on the periphery has this issue, I'd say that while the theory itself has every part of it, let's say "with a lot going against it", since overall I like it the least it is likely to be the closest to being right.

[Maelwys]

The Magistracy and OA don't get it, infact the OA gets Production Specialist for their Aerospace fighters. All three of them have Lostech Mechs and Aerospace of course, but only the Taurians have that particular bottleneck. It could be a limit due to damage by the Star League. Might be interesting to see what they have in 3151.

Of course, its not like we're arguing about a book that was written by FASA 30 years ago. We could just Ask :)

[glitterboy2098]

iirc the OA has very few production centers though, same for the magistraacy. the the taurians have a bunch.

looking at Sarna, prior to the jihad the Taurians have 4 companies producing military vehicles of some kind, with 7 sites producing mechs, 6 producing military vehicles, and 8 sites producing aerospace craft (either ASF's or dropships)

the outworlds Alliance has only 3 companies, with 3 sites producing mechs, 2 producing vehicles, and only 1 producing aerospace units.

the magistracy has 2 companies, with 1 producing mechs, one producing vehicles, 2 producing aerospace units, and one producing jumpships. though in 3060 they gain an extra company and site producing mechs, ASF's, and vehicles in the form of Detroit.

the taurians basically have the same number of production sites as a successor state, but the nation itself is a tiny fractions of the size of one of those.

which means you have to either build your rules to account for the economics of production levels.. or just give them a penalty to reflect those production sites can't produce nearly as much as anyone else's.

[Liam's Ghost]

Inner Sphere at war gives the Taurians fourteen factories (in 3025) compared to the five in the Magistracy and three in the Outworlds.

By comparison, the Capellans get twenty factories.

This means that the Concordat has significantly more resource points than the other periphery states because more of its worlds count as minor industrial worlds. This is despite having the smallest number of worlds of the periphery states.

(also if you're using the optional rule to limit force building by the number of factories you posses, the Taurians vastly outperform the other periphery states and come close to the Capellans in total military output, despite only having about a third of the Capellans' economic output)

So yeah, the Taurians might have a penalty to producing mech units, but they're still producing an outsized number of mech units.

Personally, I chalk it up to the Taurians producing smaller numbers of a wide variety of machines rather than standardizing on a smaller number of designs. You only have like thirteen mech regiments, TDF, do you really need four different heavy mech lines?

[DOC_Agren]

Yes because like RL those defense contractors keep people employed

[Baldur Mekorig]

I thought that came from the 1st 3050 TRO about them selling, but my books are packed at the moment

Its in the Warhammer entry at the TRO:3050, pag. 172. It talks about merc agents and black marketters making lots of visits to VMI and TTI to get those Warhammers -6R. Same TRO mention the Taurians producing the MAD-3R "at a prodigious rate", and VMI producing "a small number of Archer -2R each year, mostly for the TDF". The Thud -5S is mentioned beign produiced in the TC both for the local and merc market.

[DOC_Agren]

thank you for confirming my memory

[Colt Ward]

IIRC, this is born out by the availability of the Marauder 2T?  It is on the merc general market and IIRC shows up decently on RATs for mercs in later books.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

You only have like thirteen mech regiments, TDF, do you really need four different heavy mech lines?

What four lines?
More like three lines of one, two each of another two plus one more of a fourth. For a grand total of eight different heavy mech lines.

Back to the topic though. There may be one more potential culprit everyone's overlooking.
All of these factories were built by the Star League.

[Baldur Mekorig]

What four lines?
More like three lines of one, two each of another two plus one more of a fourth. For a grand total of eight different heavy mech lines.

Back to the topic though. There may be one more potential culprit everyone's overlooking.
All of these factories were built by the Star League.

Some were build by the SL, others, like VMI, were hidden lines.

[Jeyar123]

Okay, I know we normally joke about FASAnomics, but is it really the final consensus that the rules have the TC experience a centuries long penalty to generating mech forces due to making too many mechs, which in any other system (RW, in universe commentary and even the end expression of multitudes of philosophical and political and economic theories) would result in the TC having Greater difficulty in generating forces comprised of that force multiplier (mechs)? This is coupled with the TC with smaller relative build productions posted than prior production numbers even.

I'm seriously asking. I intentionally stayed away for a while just so things had a chance to... Stabilize? Or something without me.

This is the same system that gave the TC a uniform negative SO modifier even though every internal SO operation before WOB involvement worked for close to 3/4 of a thousand years. And these guys were carrying TC's mail.

The same system that devalued the TC's internal infrastructure to lower (on some charts) than minor periphery realms, to exactly the same value as OA and MOC, in spite of multiple times factions worked with the TC to copy elements from the TC that would exactly be part of what that parameter is supposed to cover.

It's almost like some...

[wanderer25]

 

  My take on the TC's military  industrial output  has always been that they are THE main supplier of mechs to mercenaries and the rest of the periphery.TO some extant  the IS too, notably as the only source of new Griffins to the CC . Sure over the centuries they could have  accumulated enought mechs to outfit 100+ regiment .

But these  cost money to keep in the field, money they wouldnt be spending  on things like : education, colonization and infrastructure to keep everything going.

Then there's manpower, can  the Ecole Militaire  churn out enought  pilots and techs to meet demand?   

[Liam's Ghost]

The likely conclusion to my eyes is that the Taurians spread their mech production out across several smaller than typical sites, possibly as a natural outgrowth of their pre-rebellion buildup and a desire for security. Spreading out production like that can slow down production, but it also theoretically makes it difficult to eliminate everything in a single strike.

As it stands in the book as of 3025, the Taurians still have the largest economy in the periphery and outperform their closest rival in terms of raw industrial capacity by a factor of almost three, both despite being the smallest of the three major periphery states in terms of total number of worlds. A 25% resource penalty assembling mech and aerospace units isn't actually enough to really knock them from that top stop among the periphery states.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

We can theorise until we're all blue but the most likely reason from a game dev standpoint is to ensure the TC doesn't leverage its production capacity to compete directly with the Inner Sphere Houses.