Author Topic: a question for the Star league book? (Read 4878 times)

phatman · « **on:** 28 May 2020, 15:30:18 »

On page 138 of the "star league" book, there is a chart that has some symbols that i do not understand and if any of you kind folks could help it would be most welcome.

Daryk · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 May 2020, 15:31:45 »

We're going to need a little more detail than that to help you...

phatman · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 May 2020, 15:38:02 »

from the F.A.S.A book " star league" fasa number #1630 page 138
see attachment
i hope this helps.

Daryk · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 May 2020, 15:49:26 »

I have the book, looked at the image, and need to know which ones you're having trouble with... You said you only had trouble with "some" of them...

Lorcan Nagle · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 May 2020, 15:52:25 »

Those are symbols indicating types of units and organisational levels based on NATO Joint Military Symbology. The most recent explanation of then for BattleTech was in Strategic Operations, I think

phatman · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 May 2020, 15:54:12 »

i understand the mech symbol, the dropship symbol, the rest are a puzzle

Daryk · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 May 2020, 15:56:07 »

Please review the link provided by Lorcan Nagle. That should clear up most of them. For any that are left, please post again here.

phatman · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 May 2020, 16:02:59 »

thank you every one, special shout out to Lorcan Nagle. :thumbsup:

Hellraiser · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 May 2020, 22:00:55 »

While based on NATO, I think they are actually listed out in the original BattleForce product as that was what used them IIRC.

phatman · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 May 2020, 22:11:42 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 28 May 2020, 22:00:55

While based on NATO, I think they are actually listed out in the original BattleForce product as that was what used them IIRC.

thank you, yes they are listed. this helps.

Sartris · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 May 2020, 22:33:44 »

pg 45. the updated symbology is in Strategic Operations pg. 336

I think i got most of it. Mech. Infantry put the black bar on the right side in Battleforce rather than the left in NATO symbology

updated to account for my initial mistakes

dgorsman · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 May 2020, 22:40:35 »

Minor nit to pick: the mechanized infantry brigade has a light Mech battalion (||), not regiment (|||).

Sartris · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 May 2020, 22:45:06 »

i'm surprised that's the only mistake in that regard - it was hard for my eyes to differentiate

Hellraiser · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 May 2020, 23:16:57 »

Why is Mech Infantry listed under 2 different symbols?

Blacknova · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 May 2020, 23:25:51 »

I think your 2nd Mech Inf Bde with the "?" next to it is an armored brigade with 2 heavy tank regiments and a hovertank regiment.

Sartris · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 May 2020, 23:29:09 »

standard answer #1: assume it's a mistake because i'm dumb

mech. inf.

armor + ifv (at least i assume that's what they were were getting at)

NATO symbology (and the update to BF in SO) denote IFV support like this

Quote from: Blacknova on 28 May 2020, 23:25:51

I think your 2nd Mech Inf Bde with the "?" next to it is an armored brigade with 2 heavy tank regiments and a hovertank regiment.

hover uses a different symbol

VhenRa · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 May 2020, 00:53:14 »

Fairly sure those black lines means its a heavy unit. Might be wrong. I swear I remember something...

dgorsman · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 May 2020, 09:53:21 »

You know, I think that upside down 'Y' indicates missile equipped. In terms of a front-line SLDF division, that would be vehicles armed with Arrow IV such as the Chaparral. Why that's only on the brigade marker, without adding a specific sub-unit, is a mystery.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 May 2020, 10:08:33 »

Dropship . . . its a second echelon, so the question is what constitutes a first- is it a single ship or a squadron . . . afaik, dropships do not get organized into 'flights.' With that said, it would seem to be organic DS support to that formation for a QRF?

Sartris · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 May 2020, 10:18:10 »

it's given "battalion" level strength but i have no idea what that constituted in the SLDF or if it's meaningful at all. still have no idea how they moved all that infantry efficiently.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #20 on:** 29 May 2020, 10:48:37 »

Its a organic division level asset (b/c falls under HQ) . . .

Speculation-
They would embark the HQ mech battalion . . . probably a Overlord or Dictator Command, besides the mixed bays of mechs & vehs they also have supporting command facilities. Probably another transport able to move a mixed battalion- carrying the remaining mechs of the HQ mech BN, support IndiMechs for tech/supply, and support vehicles. Two personnel transports- basically troopships to move the staff, S1-S7, and HQ supplies/support. Finally I might expect a pair of assault dropships. The dropship squadron (I think a single DS would fall under a first echelon sized element) could be used to move a reinforced combined arms regiment as needed, giving the deployed division some strategic mobility they own rather than having to request further DS.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #21 on:** 29 May 2020, 14:14:48 »

Quote from: dgorsman on 29 May 2020, 09:53:21

You know, I think that upside down 'Y' indicates missile equipped. In terms of a front-line SLDF division, that would be vehicles armed with Arrow IV such as the Chaparral. Why that's only on the brigade marker, without adding a specific sub-unit, is a mystery.

I don't think so.
Arrow would be Artillery & is over at the right in the Artillery Regiment

My thought, and this is iffy mind you, is that it is a variant of the "Upside down V" for Anti-Armor ^^
Its on the Brigade formation as a way to notate that the vehicle brigade overall purpose is Anti-Armor (Defensive).

Here are a couple other charts I found.

One of them is showing the solid black line as "Heavy" as was mentioned above, and not IFV which seems to be a single hollow line on the side.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbols_of_unit_type.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/97/22/3e97226c0559f06c9543f608e3bddd50--military-units-military-history.jpg

Not sure how accurate or where their source is but it has a few not on the NATO list.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #22 on:** 29 May 2020, 14:23:24 »

My guess on that "Dropship-Battalion" is that its a "Transport Squadron" with all that that entails.

Quote

A Transport Squadron was dedicated to carrying ground forces to and from the battlefield. In addition to the DropShips and JumpShips necessary for transporting the troops, these squadrons also contained regular WarShips such as destroyers, assault DropShips and fighters to protect them.

Given the fleet in the SLDF that Admiral Basso? had. 4 Cruisers, 4 Destroyers, 20 Transports, and all their Dropships & the FAW of Fighters that covers all those ships. Its probably pretty big.

The question has always been what is a SLDF Transport? IE Jumpship v/s Carrack-Volga.

But either way it was still 4 big arse gun ships w/ 4 Lolas added.

Sartris · « **Reply #23 on:** 29 May 2020, 14:25:58 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 29 May 2020, 14:14:48

Here are a couple other charts I found.

One of them is showing the solid black line as "Heavy" as was mentioned above, and not IFV which seems to be a single hollow line on the side.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbols_of_unit_type.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/97/22/3e97226c0559f06c9543f608e3bddd50--military-units-military-history.jpg

Not sure how accurate or where their source is but it has a few not on the NATO list.

could be. i just made a best guess. weird that the recon company would be 'heavy'

dgorsman · « **Reply #24 on:** 29 May 2020, 14:56:55 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 29 May 2020, 14:14:48

I don't think so.
Arrow would be Artillery & is over at the right in the Artillery Regiment

My thought, and this is iffy mind you, is that it is a variant of the "Upside down V" for Anti-Armor ^^
Its on the Brigade formation as a way to notate that the vehicle brigade overall purpose is Anti-Armor (Defensive).

Here are a couple other charts I found.

One of them is showing the solid black line as "Heavy" as was mentioned above, and not IFV which seems to be a single hollow line on the side.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbols_of_unit_type.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/97/22/3e97226c0559f06c9543f608e3bddd50--military-units-military-history.jpg

Not sure how accurate or where their source is but it has a few not on the NATO list.

The dot is for tube artillery, not missile. Under the NATO symbology there's a separate symbol for "missile", and there's a peaked cap for "rocket" with an example of MLRS. There's also a similar arrow symbol for "mortar". And heavy assault regiments are noted for having extra formations of organic artillery.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 May 2020, 15:17:55 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 29 May 2020, 14:23:24

My guess on that "Dropship-Battalion" is that its a "Transport Squadron" with all that that entails.

Given the fleet in the SLDF that Admiral Basso? had. 4 Cruisers, 4 Destroyers, 20 Transports, and all their Dropships & the FAW of Fighters that covers all those ships. Its probably pretty big.

The question has always been what is a SLDF Transport? IE Jumpship v/s Carrack-Volga.

But either way it was still 4 big arse gun ships w/ 4 Lolas added.

Warships would belong to the Navy . . . now they could be assigned as part of a command, but IMO would not fall under a ground commander's organic component. Heck, most transport (ask the Marines) belongs to the Navy even if ships are attached to the ground forces. A squadron, even of Lees(?) or Colossus will not transport this whole division at a guess- unless we are talking about 8/10/12 DS formations which I did not think the Star League used.

Doctrine may dictate that a ground force have orbital fire support, but it usually does not fall under the ground force's TO&E like that chart.

Daryk · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 May 2020, 16:27:33 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 29 May 2020, 14:23:24

*snip*
Given the fleet in the SLDF that Admiral Basso? had.
*snip*

Admiral Braso (Star League sourcebook, page 86, refers).

Hellraiser · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 May 2020, 18:57:28 »

Quote from: dgorsman on 29 May 2020, 14:56:55

The dot is for tube artillery, not missile. Under the NATO symbology there's a separate symbol for "missile", and there's a peaked cap for "rocket" with an example of MLRS. There's also a similar arrow symbol for "mortar".

I'm not sure that BT differentiates between Tube v/s Missile.
But either way, my point is that Artillery regardless of type, has its own unit on that chart.
Its not part of the Tank Brigade.

Quote

And heavy assault regiments are noted for having extra formations of organic artillery.

Those are Mech regiments "Heavy-Assault" is the name of a Mech unit.
SLDF Tank regiments are comprised of a single type of tank.

Looking at the black line as Heavy makes me think a brigade like that would be compromised of 108 Each of 3 types of tank, say, Manticore, Puma, & Partisan for the AA regiment.

Or for a division assigned to urban deployment, maybe the Heavy Regiments would be made up of wheeled Demons & Magi infantry support tanks.

Or for an extra "kill mechs" sort of feel, Demolishers & Alacorns for the 2 regiments.

I don't actually recall any other tanks besides that Partisan that are fluffed as being AA focused.

kato · « **Reply #28 on:** 30 May 2020, 07:29:11 »

Quote from: VhenRa on 29 May 2020, 00:53:14

Fairly sure those black lines means its a heavy unit. Might be wrong. I swear I remember something...

Black line for Heavy would technically be on the left, not on the right. Given how SLDF vehicles tend to be on the heavy side a right-side bar might also instead mean light instead...

Quote from: dgorsman on 29 May 2020, 09:53:21

You know, I think that upside down 'Y' indicates missile equipped.

Nah, it's basically the anti-tank symbol in accordance with USMC FM-105-1 (derived from the WW2 German "gun, medium" symbol).

Perhaps something used before the Star League to differentiate rifle-equipped tank battalions from ones capable of actually doing damage against battlemechs...

Hellraiser · « **Reply #29 on:** 30 May 2020, 20:49:22 »

Can you provide a link or picture of the icon from the Marine manual?

All I keep finding is the same one from the Army manual.

Which is basically an upside down V as I pointed out above.

I'm thinking the meaning is Anti-Armor but I've yet to find something that is actually that inverted Y symbol.