1st SW Fleets

[epic 2.0]

Now, based on the current numbers of ships (still subject to change) I have noticed a few things that we can make some suppositions about.

1.  The DCA was based on a carrier strike force.  They lack heavier designs for the most part that can get into a real slugfest.  Right now, not adjusting numbers of the Samarkand Class, they are probably a bit short on escorts for their carriers, but have a powerful force projection for aero.
2.  The LCN and the FWLN are both positioned as battleship/battlecruiser navies, with powerful anchors to a squadron in the form of the Tharkad and the Atreus Class.  Weaker in aero capacity, they probably supplemented with aero carrying dropships.
3.  The CC was a cruiser heavy navy; I say this with even their 11 Du Shi Wang and perhaps 2 Black Lions, with lots of destroyers and corvettes as support.  Probably again with some dships that were carriers to support, their role sounds like more of a skirmish and patrol navy, and relied a little more on maneuver.
4.  The FS navy... is a hodgepodge.  However, some strengths would be the ability - while the Robinsons still exist at least - to move their mech regiments around with good support.  The New Syrtis class is a powerful carrier, possibly the most powerful carrier of the Successor States of the era.  Unfortunately, they didn't have enough of them to cover everywhere.  The Davion destroyers and Congress give a powerful escort to either covering the Robinsons or escorting the New Syrtis class.  The biggest problem with the Davion navy is the Robinson class, which also would be covering for transport duty, and therefore not be given combat missions for space superiority in a way that other States can do. 

A small theory here, by the way, is the continuous FS shortage of transport and dipping into mercantile fleets for transport (an issue that carries through all the way to the 4SW) may be because of their dependence on the Robinson for transport during the 1SW (and perhaps a bit in the 2SW).  If there were 60 Robinson Class ships, that's the ability to move 20 mech regiments that were lost after the extinction of warships; a massive loss that would have been felt by the need to replace both transport jumpships AND dropships. 

[epic 2.0]

resurrecting now a bit, to get further ideas on what would constitute some thoughts on combat dropships that would be attached a 1SW squadron. 

To use an example, the LCN was typically listed as having (2765) 1 Tharkad, 1 cruiser (Commonwealth, usually), 1 destroyer and 4 Corvettes in a typical squadron
Assuming the destroyer was a Baron or something similar, and the corvettes were mostly Makos, that means that the squadron at capacity will have 60 fighters... not including their dropship component.

It also assumes that the squadron will carry with it 1 squadron of approx 5 cargo drophips and 1 combat dropship.  That still leaves 6 more berths for dropships NOT including a Star Lord that is often accompanying with additional cargo needs.

So... the question is, both with unoccupied berths and the "1 combat dropship" what would be the most common "combat" dropship for each power in similar squadrons?

For LCN, Fortress
For DCA, Achilles
For the CCAF - Leopard CV? 
FSA - Fortress (stated as being common for FS and LC during early SWs, but honestly... with no production, seems off) or maybe Leopard CV?
FWLN - Intruder

Thoughts?
Would the FS perhaps have something heavier, to offset DCA fleet strength with aero, with their new Vengeance dropships?  What about leftover Titans, especially for the Capellans perhaps?

[nerd]

FSN had the Avenger as a common combat DropShip. Built by Dynamico, LTD of Delavan and other yards.

[Hellraiser]

Yep, the Avenger seems to be the favorite of FSN, but it should be noted that its produced at 4 locations per Sarna in 3 houses (FS, LC, CC) & is accessible to all houses.

The only Achilles facility is in the DC originally, but the CC got the plans in the 3050s.

Intruder is produced in FWL, CC, & LC, and is probably the most common "assault" ship or just behind the Avenger.

With both factories making the Fortress located on Tharkad & 1 of them was shut down till the 4th SW, the Fortress is very rare outside the LC(FC).


For just about any house when I'm starting a Naval DS Fleet, I start with an Avenger & Intruder & then fill in w/ faction flavor.
I always have 1+ CV vessels (Vengeance, Union-CV, Leo-CV) depending on the size of the fleet.
Finally, maybe a little something extra for some "Space Marines" in the form of Fury &/or Leopard with some boarding troops/mechs.  (Insert Fortress for the LC)

[Daryk]

Sounds like a plan!  :thumbsup:

[2ndAcr]

 Avenger is not avail until 2816, about 30 years after the 1st SW kicks off.

 Tharkad count was 11 as of 2765, the other 17 were from 2765 to 2790 when the Tamar shipyard was destroyed. That is the way I read it anyway.

[Hellraiser]

Avenger is not avail until 2816, about 30 years after the 1st SW kicks off.

That is VERY weird actually.
Just because almost everything that ends up "in many houses" was a Pre-Exodus design.  AKA Union/Overlord, Archer/Locust, etc etc.
So it had years to spread around under the united SLDF.
For a post exodus design especially something as large as a dropship to have somehow found its way to so many factories is rather odd.
If it was truly FS only I could see it, but to have CC & LC & possibly a C* facility?  (4th location can't be determined from Sarna.)  Very odd.


Edit, I'd definitely call the Intruder more common then given the extra 150ish years of production & less dangerous (suicidal) role in combat.

[2ndAcr]

 Found it, missed Dynamico Limited. It is funny that it is built by so many companies in 3 different realms. Sarna says Aldis also, but I cannot find it listed anywhere.

 Intruder and Achilles are the two main assault Dropships I think of when it comes to the SLDF. Unless you want to count the Pentagon.

[Liam's Ghost]

If I were to make a guess, the Avenger was most likely a Star League design that never got introduced before the League fell, and the plans were eventually rediscovered and distributed across the Inner Sphere.

Either multiple houses managed to find them on burned out Hegemony worlds, or  a freelance lostech prospector sold the plans to various houses.

[Onion2112]

Great work Epic (I just spotted this post), I created my own list of warships similar to this (lots of research).

If you are curious I can post my own for comparison - but I generally agree with your numbers.

I did also use the MUL as a source.

I vaguely recall the write up for the New Grange in the TRO mentions 30 stayed in the inner sphere after the exodus - so that’s around 5-6 per house (maybe some for Comstar).

I leant towards more Carracks, Essex’s, Vincent’s and Lola IIIs to all houses as either salvage, house production or even ex Terran Hegemony production purchased. Apart from the Carracks I believe none of these ships carry dropships so Kerensky could have sold some off as well maybe to buy transport jumpship.

On the Assault dropships I would have thought the Achilles would have been reasonably widespread at 2786, given it is a 2582 design, followed by the substantially cheaper intruder.

[epic 2.0]

yeah, I had originally planned on including the Avenger til I noticed the intro date of it. 

I vetoed Pentagons, as they seemed to be an SLDF only design. 

It didn't leave much room for other assault dships.  Carrier dropships could be plugged in instead, but a large carrier (overlord and union conversions aside) seemed like a bit too much. 

[epic 2.0]

Great work Epic (I just spotted this post), I created my own list of warships similar to this (lots of research).

If you are curious I can post my own for comparison - but I generally agree with your numbers.

I did also use the MUL as a source.

I vaguely recall the write up for the New Grange in the TRO mentions 30 stayed in the inner sphere after the exodus - so that’s around 5-6 per house (maybe some for Comstar).

I leant towards more Carracks, Essex’s, Vincent’s and Lola IIIs to all houses as either salvage, house production or even ex Terran Hegemony production purchased. Apart from the Carracks I believe none of these ships carry dropships so Kerensky could have sold some off as well maybe to buy transport jumpship.

On the Assault dropships I would have thought the Achilles would have been reasonably widespread at 2786, given it is a 2582 design, followed by the substantially cheaper intruder.

I am absolutely interested in this, yes please.  Post your fleets! 
Do you have a page cite for the NewGrange?  That would change things around a lot.  Seems like a high number, but would be useful for rescue of jumpships that were damaged as well as warships. 

[2ndAcr]

 From Sarna:

 A rough total of two-hundred Newgrange-class yardships were known to have been constructed, but only a mere forty-five remained in the Inner Sphere after the devastation of the Amaris Civil War and General Kerensky’s Exodus. Unable to flee while servicing another vessel, the Newgrange-class became prime targets during the maelstrom of the First and Second Succession Wars and none were thought to have survived intact

[epic 2.0]

From Sarna:

 A rough total of two-hundred Newgrange-class yardships were known to have been constructed, but only a mere forty-five remained in the Inner Sphere after the devastation of the Amaris Civil War and General Kerensky’s Exodus. Unable to flee while servicing another vessel, the Newgrange-class became prime targets during the maelstrom of the First and Second Succession Wars and none were thought to have survived intact

Great, thx.  and cited from TRO 3085 Supplemental, under the Newgrange entry there.  alright, that's gonna change things a bit more. 

[epic 2.0]

Alright, mod'd with newgrange numbers.  I went a bit higher than 5-6.  If there were indeed as TRO 3085 Supp states, 45 left in the IS after the Amaris Civil War AND the Exodus, I went with a number of 42 to the States, and 3 to Comstar. 

That broke into 9 for the DC and LC, and 8 for the others each.  Reasoning for the DC and LC getting more than anyone else was simply that they had the largest fleets to service.  That also allowed me to get rid of some more of those Commonwealth Light Cruisers that I felt there were too many of. 

[Weirdo]

If you want a good assault ship for this era, look at the DroST IIb. It's not on the same level as the Achilles, but against just about any other DropShip, it's a surprising beast.

[epic 2.0]

If you want a good assault ship for this era, look at the DroST IIb. It's not on the same level as the Achilles, but against just about any other DropShip, it's a surprising beast.

Isn't it a bit old for the 1sw for a frontline ship though?  Looking at it, it ceased production after the Reunification War and was mostly decommissioned to civilian use. I could see it in 2nd line groups but paired as an escort for warships, not so sure.

[Weirdo]

Decommissioned from the Hegemony Navy, that's all we know.

And take a look at it before deciding it wouldn't make a good WarShip escort. >:D

[epic 2.0]

Decommissioned from the Hegemony Navy, that's all we know.

And take a look at it before deciding it wouldn't make a good WarShip escort. >:D

LOL.  looked at it AND have used it so I do know.  Obviously, we are talking the 2470 model with non-primitive equipment.  The speed is good and armour is great, light weapons though.  Still not sure when matched up against fleets that would maybe have Achilles or light CVs.

Also, did ANY of the powers actually use many small craft?  The Lyonesse and Aquarius are available to the FWL during the 1SW.  Nobody else seems to have combat capable Small Craft available during the era. 

[Weirdo]

Light weapons? We are talking about the IIb, right? Not the much weaker IIa? ???

As for Small Craft, the Davions have the Intrepid, you mentioned the Leaguer shuttles, and I think everyone gets the Ares series.

And of course, don't forget that Small Craft bays can also be used to carry ASFs of any kind. Eight fighters is nothing to sneeze at. :)

[epic 2.0]

Light weapons? We are talking about the IIb, right? Not the much weaker IIa? ???

As for Small Craft, the Davions have the Intrepid, you mentioned the Leaguer shuttles, and I think everyone gets the Ares series.

And of course, don't forget that Small Craft bays can also be used to carry ASFs of any kind. Eight fighters is nothing to sneeze at. :)

Hmmm.  The Drost IIb I'm going to have to research more.  Yeah, I was thinking the IIa.  Still trying to figure out if it's era appropriate though.  It's listed as extinct in the era.

As for Small Craft: The Ares Mark VI seems to be around the era for the 1sw (the Mark VII was in the 2800s, too late for the 1SW.  However, the MUL has very little info about the Mark VI
The Intrepid was listed as extinct by the time of the 1SW so I didn't bother with it, as per the MUL anyways. 

[Liam's Ghost]

Decommissioned from the Hegemony Navy, that's all we know.

And take a look at it before deciding it wouldn't make a good WarShip escort. >:D

While it would be a fantastic option, unfortunately it appears to be extinct by the Early Succession Wars (per the MUL).

Going by the MUL, we have the Achilles, Intruder, Leopard CV and the Titan generally available in the inner sphere, and the Combine has the Gaajian, which might work in a pinch?

(apologies if I'm duplicating something someone else has said. I've really only been skimming.)

[epic 2.0]

While it would be a fantastic option, unfortunately it appears to be extinct by the Early Succession Wars (per the MUL).

Going by the MUL, we have the Achilles, Intruder, Leopard CV and the Titan generally available in the inner sphere, and the Combine has the Gaajian, which might work in a pinch?

(apologies if I'm duplicating something someone else has said. I've really only been skimming.)

OOO.  I missed the Gaajian.  checking on that one.

Alright.  Researching this one, I would still have to say that the DCA for frontline fleets would have the Achilles.  The Gaajian would be for 2nd line IMO.  It's still a good catch though; as a support ship or as replacements for losses, I could see the Gaajian serving in front-line fleets. 

[Onion2112]

Hi again Epic,

With the New Grange I obviously remembered it wrong (I was going from memory at that time)...it was 30 Aegis to the houses - I did actually parcel out 9 each the houses - a bit boring but 45/5 is 9.

I have a 6 page word document of notes and lists - has my reasons for some numbers and designs - I will just post my fleets - it was part of some work I was doing to update the the Inner Sphere at War scenario for the 1st Succession War

I had a comment saying "Comstar is not mentioned as having any New Grange's, and the Word of Blake example(s) are possibly salvage".

Also the stated warship numbers 1SW Historical say that figures do not include Reserve on Non-combat vessels – I reckon Newgrange Yardships are non-combat vessels - so I didnt include them in the tallies - but you easy remove 9 Carracks and replace them with NewGranges (it could be argued that Carracks are also non-combat).

Ill start with the Capellans

Capellan Confederation
Combat Vessels (157 vessels)
10 Soyal – AT12 ST2 DT3
11 Du Shi Wang – AT18 DT2 (5 in 2765 Fleet)
1 Cameron – AT16 ST2 DT2
2 Black Lion I – ST24 (2 mentioned by name but there are possibly more)
6 Aegis – AT18 ST10 DT4
5 Congress – AT6 ST2 DT4 – 3 are named in SW books
3 Essex II – AT6 ST4
3 Lola III – AT6 ST4
6 Naga – AT12 ST2
6 Carson – AT6 ST6
6 Lola I – AT6 ST2
27 Essex I (in production) – ST12 (2 in fleet at 2765)
6 Baron – AT6 ST6
33 Vincent Mk. 39 (in production) – AT6 ST4 (3 in fleet at 2765)
2 Samarkand II – AT72 ST12 DT4
6 Mako – ST2
6 Vigilant– AT6 ST4
18 Carrack – ST4 DT2

Non- Combat vessels
9 Newgrange Yardships – ST53 DT4

As regards number of Du Shi Wang Battleships, TRO 3075 says there were less than a dozen left at start of 1SW

[Onion2112]

Alot of my numbers are nice round numbers - but I took the view to put variation in you could modify them +/- a few ie below maybe change the listed 12 Nagas to be 10 and add make it 14 Lola I's (instead of 12) -

I also took another view that if the Star League sold 6 Aegis's to each house - maybe they also parceled out destroyers in groups of 6 each.

Draconis Combine
Combat Vessels (199 vessels)
1 Sovetskii Soyuz – AT18 ST8 DT4 (later captured by Fed Suns)
6 Aegis – AT18 ST10 DT4 (5 in service 2765)
3 Cruiser – ST6 DT2 (2 in service 2765)
4 Congress – AT6 ST2 DT4 – 2 named in SW books
36 Narukami II (in production) – AT12 ST2 DT3 (6 in service at 2765)
4 Lola III – AT6 ST4
4 Essex II – AT6 ST4
12 Naga – AT12 ST2
12 Lola I – AT6 ST2 – 6 are named in SW books (5 vessels in 2765 Fleet)
12 Essex I – ST12
12 Baron – AT6 ST6
24 Vincent Mk. 39 – AT6 ST4
6 Samarkand I – AT72 ST12 DT3
27 Samarkand II (possibly in production) – AT72 ST12 DT4
12 Vigilant – AT6 ST4
6 Bonaventure– AT6 ST2
18 Carrack – ST4 DT2

Non-Combat Vessels
9 Newgrange Yardships – ST53 DT4

[Onion2112]

Federated Suns
Combat Vessels (184 vessels)
3 Defender – ST20 DT8 – only 2 named in SW books (2 active in 2765)
6 New Syrtis – AT120 ST24 DT2 – only 4 named in SW books (4 active in 2765)
1 Black Lion II – AT18 ST10 DT4 (from MUL, possibly meant to be the old version – write up mentions a few I's (2-4) served in 1SW)
6 Congress-D – AT6 ST2 DT4 – only 6 definitely remained at start of 1SW (6 active in 2765)
3 Congress – AT6 ST2 DT4
6 Aegis – AT18 ST10 DT4 (6 active in 2765)
36 Davion II (possibly in production) – AT18 DT2 (15 active in 2765)
3 Davion I - AT2
5 Essex II – AT6 ST4
5 Lola III – AT6 ST4
15 Naga – AT12 ST2
1 Riga II – AT36 ST5 DT2
15 Baron – AT6 ST6 (3 active in 2765)
31 Robinson II (probably in production) – AT24 ST12 DT4 (10 in 2765 Fleet)
6 Robinson I – AT24 ST12 DT4 – at least 2 active in 1SW
18 Vincent Mk. 39 – AT6 ST4
6 Vigilant – AT6 ST4
18 Carrack – ST4 DT2

Non-Combat Vessels
9 Newgrange Yardships – ST53 DT4

[Onion2112]

Free Worlds League
Combat Vessels (159 vessels)
10 Soyal – AT12 ST2 DT3 – 7 named in SW books
20 Atreus – AT24 DT2
1 Cameron – AT16 ST2 DT2
5 Aegis (SL) – AT18 ST10 DT4
4 Lola III – AT6 ST4
4 Essex II – AT6 ST4
35 League II (in production) – AT12 ST6 DT2 (10 in 2765)
12 Lola I – AT6 ST2
6 Essex I – ST12
6 Baron – AT6 ST6
18 Vincent Mk. 39 – AT6 ST4
1 Samarkand II – AT72 ST12 DT4 (1 SW book says only 1 in FWLN)
6 Mako – ST2
6 Vigilant – AT6 ST4
19 Carrack – ST4 DT2
6 Carrack-CV (modified hulls) – AT18 ST4 DT2

Non-Combat Vessels
9 Newgrange Yardships – ST53 DT4

(not included above were 1 Aegis class Cruiser & 3 League II class Destroyers lost at Bolan 2785)

Lyran Commonwealth (217 vessels)
Combat Vessels (217 vessels)
1 Potemkin – ST10 DT25
2 Black Lion II – AT18 ST10 DT4
28 Tharkad (in production) – AT36 ST8 DT6 (11 in 2765)
2 Sovetskii Soyuz – AT18 ST8 DT4
6 Aegis (SL) – AT18 ST10 DT4
24 Commonwealth II (in production) – AT18 ST4 DT6 (3 in 2765)
3 Congress – AT6 ST2 DT4
3 Riga – AT12 ST2 DT4
4 Lola III – AT6 ST4
5 Essex II – AT6 ST4
6 Naga – AT12 ST2
6 Lola I – AT6 ST2
6 Essex I – ST12
6 Baron – AT6 ST6
24 Vincent Mk. 39 – AT6 ST4
6 Vigilant – AT6 ST4
63 Mako (in production) – ST2
18 Carrack – ST4 DT2
4 Sylvester – ST4 DT2

TRO3075 says that 28 Tharkad Battlecruisers were constructed prior ship yards destruction

Non Combat Vessels
9 Newgrange Yardships – ST53 DT4

(not included above were 2 Mako class Corvettes were lost at Bolan 2785)

This was an attempt at approx dropships numbers for the Lyrans (AT is ASFs and ST is Small Craft)
Total AT = 1926 + dropship totals
Total ST = 892 + dropship totals
Total DT = 396 (x2) = 792
324 Leopard CV (multiple of 3) – AT6
284 Intruder (multiple of 2) – AT2
144 Achilles (multiple of 2) – AT2 ST2
40 Titan – AT18

Assault Dropships (using 1SW RAT as a guide)
CC/FS 35% Leopard CV, 30% each Intruder & Achilles and 2.5% each Titan & Vengeance
DC has 37.5% Leopard CV & Achilles and 25% Intruder – no Vengeance or Titan
FWL 45% Intruder, 27.5% Leopard CV, 22.5% Achilles and 2.5% each Titan & Vengeance
LC 41% Leopard CV, 36% Intruder, 18 % Achilles and 5 % Titan - no Vengeance
TH Remnants use 25% each Achilles & Pentagon; 35% Leopard CV, 10% Intruder and 5% Titan
General Periphery only use Leopard CV and Intruder
Outworlds Alliance use 85% leopard CV, 10% Intruder and 5% Titan

[epic 2.0]

This was an attempt at approx dropships numbers for the Lyrans (AT is ASFs and ST is Small Craft)
Total AT = 1926 + dropship totals
Total ST = 892 + dropship totals
Total DT = 396 (x2) = 792
324 Leopard CV (multiple of 3) – AT6
284 Intruder (multiple of 2) – AT2
144 Achilles (multiple of 2) – AT2 ST2
40 Titan – AT18

Assault Dropships (using 1SW RAT as a guide)
CC/FS 35% Leopard CV, 30% each Intruder & Achilles and 2.5% each Titan & Vengeance
DC has 37.5% Leopard CV & Achilles and 25% Intruder – no Vengeance or Titan
FWL 45% Intruder, 27.5% Leopard CV, 22.5% Achilles and 2.5% each Titan & Vengeance
LC 41% Leopard CV, 36% Intruder, 18 % Achilles and 5 % Titan - no Vengeance
TH Remnants use 25% each Achilles & Pentagon; 35% Leopard CV, 10% Intruder and 5% Titan
General Periphery only use Leopard CV and Intruder
Outworlds Alliance use 85% leopard CV, 10% Intruder and 5% Titan

Excellent idea about the DS.  I usually avoid using RATs to build forces like this, but in the absence of other info for dships especially in the era, this works. 

[Onion2112]

With the ships in my lists I generally stuck to what was shown on the MUL.
Since there is sparse information on assault or carrier dropship use I thought the RAT was the only option.

With the Achilles, it was a surprise (but it’s fairly common on the tables RAT), I suspect it may have been produced much more widespread prior to 2786 than it was 3025 or even 3145, and it’s high cost was probably not as much of an issue (also at 2786 is was nearly a 200 year old design)

Just as an example in the lead up to the 1SW, the Federated Suns produced the Vengeance at Layover and this planet had massive dropship facilities in 2786, by 3025 it was just producing Seeker’s, which much abandoned or destroyed. But there is possibility the Achilles was produced here, or at some other destroyed facility. It could be a similar deal with the other houses. Almost all warship yards were ruined or destroyed in 1SW and likely most dropship yards (but not all) were the same - so really pre-war dropship production capacity was probably huge.

The Fed Suns in the 2765 PDF field report are mentioned as having a patrol group/squadron composed of 2 Leopard CVs 2 Achilles and an Intruder, plus a support/cargo dropship - as well as an ASF wing and Star Lord. Davion II destroyers carried 2 Achilles as well (later replaced by Vengeance).

For them later Avenger production have filled that Achilles gap (also much more cheaply)

[Weirdo]

Yeah, my impression is that the Achilles was pretty much everywhere, thanks to SLDF procurement contracts. And while it wasn't exactly high-tech, the Avenger was created as a more easily-replaced alternative after the ravages of the First Succession War.