3025 Mercenary company ASF squadron

[sneakylikeajavelin]

If you were CO of a mercenary company in 3025 and you were picking a squadron of aerospace fighters, which ones would you choose? Would you go for six of the same design or go for a mix?

Assume your objectives are:

• Escort your dropship from the jump point to the LZ and back
• Protect the dropship by keeping the skies above the LZ clear
• If the opportunity presents itself (ie enemy air assets are so depleted that they can't threaten the dropship), provide support for the ground forces

[Losferwords]

Some of these... even in the future!

 8)

[Elmoth]

The A10 of BT is called Mechbuster or Transit.

If I can choose, all same design. Peobably the "heavy medium" design that is the Slayer, transgressor or Eagle. But the eagle is ugly, so Slayer.

If i operate all over the place, something that can get replacement parts easily and still pack a punch. Stingray or lightning. Stuff that Cannot be ignored by enemy fighters when they go for your dropships.

[pokefan548]

If I had my druthers, probably a flight of Slayers, a flight of Lightnings, and a flight of either Shilones or Lucifers. If the Slayer ends up being the LRM variant, I might sub the last flight for a flight of Corsairs or Stingrays.

[Alan Grant]

I've never really liked splitting a squadron into 3 types of fighters. It becomes hard to reorganize into proper wingmate pairs once they begin to take casualties. So I've always preferred squadrons that are all of the same fuselage at least (variants may differ).

The most I've ever deviated from that has been a squadron that has 4 of the same type, and then 2 more that somehow complement the squadron's capabilities. For example a flight of 4 heavy slower fighters that are great for attack/bombing/anti-dropship missions but not so great at dogfighting, and then give them a couple interceptors/dogfighters as an organic escort.

Or a squadron that has 4 dedicated dogfighters, and 2 lights intended to be recon and maybe light interceptor/light attack duties.

[Failure16]

In my long-running mercenary campaign, my unit has subcontracted a short aerospace wing that consists of Vulcans and Cheetahs (there is more to it than that, but that's all that is germane right now). Might not be the most optimum arrangement, but they work. Before that, a flock of Rievers. They worked too. The main missions are (in order): get the Regiment dirtside, provide CAS, and perform aerial reconnaissance. I find a high/low mix of heavies and lights does that well, especially in the older rulesets. Not sure on ASF in more modern rules.

But I agree with Alan Grant: I keep my squadrons pure. If I only had six, I very well might go with a medium for broader versatility, and that would likely mean the Stingray (but I would miss those VLC-5Ns!).

[Daryk]

I'm a fan of the Lucifer LCF-R20, and would go with six of them.  They're armor bricks, making them suitable for anti-DropShip work and you can still mount bombs on them if necessary for air-to-ground.

[DevianID]

I like the 'regulus' corsair.  Faster then a lucifer and uparmored compared to the normal corsair, it has a good spread of weapons and the all energy load is good for ground attack too.

I like the suggestion of 4+2 fighters.  So 4 Regulus corsairs and 2 interceptor types (i like sparrowhawks) that have 10+ thrust.  In the abstract rules 10+ thrust gives a bonus moving around so a pair of those can chase things down.

[Failure16]

I'm a fan of the Lucifer LCF-R20, and would go with six of them.  They're armor bricks, making them suitable for anti-DropShip work and you can still mount bombs on them if necessary for air-to-ground.

Homie don't buy transatmospheric fusion torch fighters without ejection seats, brother.

But yes, if we are limited to six airframes, I guess I'd rock a 4/2 split myself.

[Daryk]

Good point, and one I forgot about... I still like the "brick", despite that...  :D

[pokefan548]

I've seen enough Lucifers survive crashing into the side of a miuntain to call it "survivable enough".

[boilerman]

But yes, if we are limited to six airframes, I guess I'd rock a 4/2 split myself.

That's my typical scheme too, usually 4 mediums and 2 lights.

[sneakylikeajavelin]

Firstly I'd like to say thank you to everyone for their suggestions! It's really interesting to see the common themes and differences across the answers.

If I had my druthers, probably a flight of Slayers, a flight of Lightnings, and a flight of either Shilones or Lucifers. If the Slayer ends up being the LRM variant, I might sub the last flight for a flight of Corsairs or Stingrays.

I think if I were to use Slayers I would go for the LRM variant. Can I ask why you'd bring in the Lightnings and Corsairs/Stingrays to work with them? I'm a complete novice and it's not obvious to me why that line-up works better than, say, just piling in with a full squadron of something like the Eagle EGL-R6.

[Hellraiser]

Thunderbirds,  lots & lots of Thunderbirds

[Daryk]

Those work too...  8)

[pokefan548]

Can I ask why you'd bring in the Lightnings and Corsairs/Stingrays to work with them? I'm a complete novice and it's not obvious to me why that line-up works better than, say, just piling in with a full squadron of something like the Eagle EGL-R6.

The main goal is essentially to have one flight each of the three "main" roles that non-interceptors tend to play (since interceptors, IMO, only really work in support of a larger aerospace force). You've got an AC/10 from the Slayer, of Large Lasers and/or a PPC from the Corsair and Stingray on fairly sturdy dogfighters that can consistently pen damage threshold. The Lightning (or Transit, if you prefer, though that is a bit less universal and abundant throughout the entire Inner Sphere) is a nice little AC/20 boat that's quite good at performing ground attack missions as well as hunting lightly-armed droppers, with decent knife-fighting potential in a dogfight thanks to its medium lasers. The presence of the LRM boats, with their ability to cover a wide area and effectively cover their shorter-range allies with minimal commitment required, should need no further explanation.

[sneakylikeajavelin]

The main goal is essentially to have one flight each of the three "main" roles that non-interceptors tend to play (since interceptors, IMO, only really work in support of a larger aerospace force). You've got an AC/10 from the Slayer, of Large Lasers and/or a PPC from the Corsair and Stingray on fairly sturdy dogfighters that can consistently pen damage threshold. The Lightning (or Transit, if you prefer, though that is a bit less universal and abundant throughout the entire Inner Sphere) is a nice little AC/20 boat that's quite good at performing ground attack missions as well as hunting lightly-armed droppers, with decent knife-fighting potential in a dogfight thanks to its medium lasers. The presence of the LRM boats, with their ability to cover a wide area and effectively cover their shorter-range allies with minimal commitment required, should need no further explanation.

Thanks for the lesson! :)

[pokefan548]

If you have a specific mission or multiple squadrons, you can of course afford to make a squadron more specialized, so don't be afraid to stack a few fighters that serve the same role if you really think you need it and can get away with it.

[Hellraiser]

The Lightning (or Transit, if you prefer, though that is a bit less universal and abundant throughout the entire Inner Sphere) is a nice little AC/20 boat that's quite good at performing ground attack missions as well as hunting lightly-armed droppers, with decent knife-fighting potential in a dogfight thanks to its medium lasers.

Off Topic a bit but the whole Lightning/Transit & Eagle/Transgressor bit of duplication has always made me think they should have gone another route.
Like have the Transit be a PPC in the nose w/ the MLs backing it up & throw the added tonnage into SHS to Alpha Strike w/ leftover to Armor.

Meanwhile the Transgressor could have been a different design w/ a single LL & the AC20 in the nose while the wings held typical MLs.
IDK, it would have just given us a bit different feel among the existing designs.

[Daryk]

I ascribe it to the number of cooks back in the day...  8)

[Failure16]

Perhaps; but there is just as much likelihood that the "AeroTech Six" stats were made by the "3025 Ten" writers. The credits do not give us a lot of help in this regard, but the names have overlap (of course, because the original products were from a relatively small pool, as they are today and in all other similar companies). We know several 'Mechs that Pardoe wrote/designed, and others I feel were likely done by "Butch" Leeper by inference. But no one has ever claimed the ASFs so far as I know.

When you think on it, many of the original ASFs were just riffs on a theme. I mean, other than tonnage, the Slayer isn't much more than a variant of the Transit/Lightning, just as the Thunderbird and Stuka are pretty evenly matched, as are the Hellcat/Eagle/Transgressor. It is possible that the original ASFs inhabited some sort of "BattleDroids" niche (like the Battleaxe/Warhammer or Bombardier/Archer imagery) but there is zero evidence of that (doubly so, since there was never indication that art for the Six existed before the Ten in 3025).

Back to topic, I feel that this putative squadron needs to get their charges past the space/atmosphere interface, provide reconnaissance, and conduct ground support. Rhetorically, what spaceframes do that best?

[Daryk]

Recon can be done by any ASF, really.  You don't actually need a Recon Camera pod to do it, after all...  ^-^

[Failure16]

That is very true. Just like in the real-world, cavalry is a mission, not a unit type. Also, in the real world, bigger military things usually go faster (like MBTs are faster than APCs/IFVs or many combat aircraft within the same type/class).

When you think about it, a 100 tonne F-100 Riever makes a pretty good recon platform compared to a 20-tonne LCT-1V Locust. It is much faster, doesn't care about terrain, and can see more.

But, compared to an F-10/11 Cheetah, it is not nearly as fast* and I can think of better things for that pilot and spaceframe to be doing than doing recon assuming a moderate-to-heavy OPTEMPO and finite resources.


*This cuts several ways: slower speeds mean less area covered, less ability to stay of trouble and get past it when confronted, slower time to get back to base and hand over what it found, and a double-whammy for the opposition and against me if they do down the craft. On the balance, though, the F-100 is certainly more survivable than an F-10, unless that speed variance means the F-100 gets swamped...

[Alan Grant]

Good rule of thumb to remember. For ASFs expecting to be primarily operating in space, heavy fighters are often better. The rules allow ASFs to use thrusters to rotate. So these things can begin spinning turrets flying in one direction but pointing in different directions. Also, operations in space can mean going up against dropships and so more firepower/armor makes sense.

For atmospheric operations, lights (as interceptors, light fast bombers, zippy recon) and mediums (as more durable dogfighters) are more typically your go-To's.

In atmosphere it's about that ability to turn and burn in a dogfight. Speed and maneuverability count a lot as you are often relying on the ability to get on an opponent's tail and stay there. The mechanics of Battletech mean that ASF fights more closely resemble dogfights from WW2 or Korea than real world modern air combat. In 3025, aside from LRMs, most weapons are direct-fire with no tracking or guidance systems and you want to get on the enemy's six to use them.

Providing close air support falls somewhere in the middle. More tonnage means your ASF can carry more ordnance on hardpoints. It also conceivably means your strafing runs have more punch to them. The scariest thing for enemy ground forces is for you to bring some 100 ton fighter loaded up with bombs. But in atmosphere those slower birds are also going struggle if intercepted.

Another way this commonly gets broken down is by speed profile. 6/9 is regarded a typical dogfighter speed, slower is often the heavies that are attack platforms, faster than that and you potentially have an interceptor (or fast dogfighter, somewhere in-between)

Given the mission setup you've described, I like the Stingray, a medium ASF that can dogfight, strafe, bomb, recon. It's hard to go too far wrong there.

It can attack dropships, (preferably smaller, weaker ones, it's not as potent as a heavy fighter) so it gets a "C" grade on that.

About the only thing it truly can't do is chase down enemy interceptors. If the enemy is flying around in some of the fast 20-ton fighters out there it'll struggle to keep up. But a lot of that can be overcome via tactics such as setting yourself up so the interceptors are headed toward you rather than away from you so you can get a shot off. They melt quickly.

[Colt Ward]

Stingray . . . there is a reason you see it in merc ranks already.

It also offers some interesting upgrade options.

[Hellraiser]

For Tactics based on Speed &/or Size, Alan Grant covered it pretty much 2 posts up.

Heavy = Deep Space (6/9 & Slower)
Light = Atmospheric  (9/14 & Faster)
Medium = Either/Both & Dog Fighting (6/9 - 8/12)

[sneakylikeajavelin]

The Stingray is getting a lot of recommendations, but I (with zero experience, so I stand to be corrected) feel like the Eagle/Transgressor looks better on paper. Does the PPC give you that much of an edge over something that can fire 3xLL every turn?

[Failure16]

Thresholding for one. Besides, the F-90 looks the business in an X-29/1980-90s kind of way. And its FWL, so it automatically gets a boost in fabulosity.

[Daryk]

Thresholding is the one that really matters, but rule of cool is ALWAYS a factor...  :D

[Colt Ward]

Thresholding for one. Besides, the F-90 looks the business in an X-29/1980-90s kind of way. And its FWL, so it automatically gets a boost in fabulosity.

 . . . this made me think of one of the funniest fight scenes I remember seeing . . .



I now want to see a Stingray pilot, from the League, being named Sir John Elton . . .

[Goose]

WISDOM

So you've got three pairs facing three pairs in the low atmosphere, a nice big map, and thrust-6, being a standard, is what four of them can do: What about the other two?

Faster birds, and assume you attack something isolated?

Or do the conservative thing, and rely on your teammates to hose-down tailgaters, and your armor-weight to by you the needed time?

How often can you interrupt a duel of interceptors with the firepower of slower middleweights?

… Having to had made this choice "years" ago, off-screen, stews me in my own juices. :-\

[Hellraiser]

I think the issue is that you can't always have all bigger fighters.

Sometimes you get what you get.

In that case, I'd rather use my Lights in Atmosphere v/s Black Space where heavies can play "turret spin" with the advanced movement rules.

[Daryk]

You fight the battle with the ASF you HAVE, not the ASF you WANT...  8)

[DragonKhan55]

You fight the battle with the ASF you HAVE, not the ASF you WANT...  8)

Because if a Merc outfit got the ASFs it wanted, it would just be a full six-ship squadron of EST-R3 Eisensturms

[Daryk]

Or Eagles, or Stukas, etc., etc....  8)

[Colt Ward]

No, the armed brick Eisenstrums is about right.

[Hellraiser]

My favorite "Heavy/Assault" squadrons of the Civil War era are a mix of R3's & D46-Thunderbirds.
I love the Stuka too but its more guns & less Armor than the above pair.

[DragonKhan55]

Or Eagles, or Stukas, etc., etc....  8)

I picked the ESTs because they're powerful and armored enough to serve as dropper-choppers and attack birds while still retaining the same performance as a Corsair or a Eagle in terms of flight characteristics. They're better armored and armed compared to Eagles and both faster AND better-protected than Stukas. An ideal mercenary fighter wing that can do anything and everything under the sun would be two squadrons of EST-Os and another of either interceptors like the Sparrowhawk/Sabre or a fast dogfighter like ex-DCMS Samurais/FedSuns Daggers.

[House Davie Merc]

I'm surprised more posters didn't say 6 of the CSR-V12 Corsair
for a mercenary unit .
Why ?
1. Lasers .
2. More lasers.
3. The lasers on the other side .
4. Cheap ammunition resupply .

[Failure16]

F-90 gotcha covered, HDM.

[DragonKhan55]

F-90 gotcha covered, HDM.

Solid choices and sweet looks too. Though for a heavier bird. you really can't go wrong with a squadron of EGL-R6 Eagles. 75 tons, great armor, three large lasers, can carry tons of ordnance in bombing roles, and are common enough across the Sphere that parts aren't likely to be an issue.

Upgrades would be easy too-if you ever got your hands on some Star League lostech, a straight swap of the large laser to ER versions and some DHS makes them even more dangerous.