Author Topic: The Wolf Empire: Our Khan Beat Devlin Stone in a Savage Wolf! Buy Savage Wolves!  (Read 199024 times)

ArkRoyalRavager

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The Foxes help anyone as long as they make a profit. It's as simple as that. And the Wolves are winning. Everyone likes to bet on winners.

Jellico

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Standard divide and conquer means support the second most powerful entity to control the first.

Does that mean that the Foxes would support the stability producing, profit increasing Republic over the disruptive, disrespectful Wolves? Maybe the Falcons to keep the Wolves in check.

There is no reason for a Wolf IlClan to be good for the Foxes.

ArkRoyalRavager

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All the Wolves want are military hardware and those always make a better profit per shipping volume than sundry goods ordered by the "peaceful" Republic. They'll sell to both sides, but they won't stand in the way of Alaric.

Jellico

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The Foxes are already selling the Wolves military hardware. The Wolves industry is so stuffed that a XXLed Cheetah is their primary ASF. The Wolves are being bankrolled by the Foxes as it is.

So what is the advantage for the  Foxes to get involved further? Heck as IlClan the Wolves would be in a position to do all sorts of bad things from a general consumption tax to cancelation of all debts.

The Foxes are merchants. No one likes them. If any Clan gets full control you can bet on a hardening of attitudes towards deviant behavior like a dominant merchant caste. Controlled chaos suits the Foxes better.

Kitsune413

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The Ilclan gets the Ilkhan position permanently. The khan of the Ilclan is the ilkhan. He wouldn't have more power than the ground council, unless it is wartime and then he does.

It doesn't make sense to aid another clan to gain that amount of political power over you unless it looks like they are likely to succeed and you can negotiate semi-autonomy from the aid.

So if Alaric looks like he is going to sack Terra and is willing to take transportation or logistics aid in exchange for promising freedoms to clan sea fox it might be worth the investment...

But in almost, if not all, other situations it makes more sense to sabotage them.

Supporting the jade falcons is bad news because of their policies. But if the Ghost Bears are interested in a bid for Terra and you can get those freedom concessions out of them then send the bears in.

Or sack Terra yourself and just let it go.
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Kitsune413

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These Wolves are surprisingly quiet about XTRO Wolf Propoganda Republic III.

Except Steve about that Ryoken. He is going to be insufferable now...
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Jellico

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They have just acknowledged that their warriors need a crutch. Nothing to see here  O:-)

Natasha Kerensky

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Does that mean that the Foxes would support the stability producing, profit increasing Republic over the disruptive, disrespectful Wolves?

This theory would make sense if the Republic was currently a stabilizing force that undertook commerce with the Foxes.  But there's probably been little to no trade with the Republic in the umpety-ump years since the Fortress wall went up, and the Republic has been purposefully destabilizing its neighbors with raids beyond the Fortress wall.

Controlled chaos suits the Foxes better.

Stability?  Chaos?  Neither?  Both?

Probably both.  The Foxes need stability somewhere to support production.  But they need chaos somewhere else to create customers for their war material.

They'll sell to both sides

That likely is the one truism we can be sure of when it comes to the Foxes.

If the right deal is struck, the prospect of the ilClan taking over Terra and other Republic worlds offers the Foxes access to amounts of raw materials, advanced technologies, and trade pacts that they probably cannot get any other way.  At least, that's what I would offer the Foxes in exchange for their arcships at the rear of my invasion, were I in the future ilKhan's shoes.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
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Natasha Kerensky

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These Wolves are surprisingly quiet about XTRO Wolf Propoganda Republic III

The potential implications of the fluff are arguably probably bigger than the designs themselves.  The Horses are supplying the Wolves with interface cockpits (or the technology), the Wolves are sharing the Skinwalker with the Ravens, the Foxes appear to be acting as go-betweens, and the Bears and Ravens are gearing up invasion-oriented warship production.  It's like the Council of Six finally figured out kindergarten lessons about cooperation.

And unless I missed a passage, the Falcons are conspicuous by their absence.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Jellico

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Um. It barely says any of that.

It says the Horses trialed DI back in the 3080s. The Wolves had 50 years to notice and aquire it themselves. The Foxes are mentioned because they aquire everything. The Ravens are mentioned because they used to build Storm Crows and the Wolves didn't. It is specifically said later that the Ravens aren't rich enough to exploit DI. Throw an expensive WarShip on top of that and I see some exaggeration there.

The Bears and Ravens are playing their own games as known constructors of WarShips. It is a leap to connect this to the Wolves. Why would the Bears cooperate with the Wolves if the Wolves end game is IlClanship?

SteveRestless

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Except Steve about that Ryoken. He is going to be insufferable now...

Ssssh. Just relax and let the skinwalker do its magic. its hideously expensive magic.   :D

As for whether the Foxes would want a Wolf ilClan, consider this. The Wolves are known for being fairly hands off with their lower castes. To the point where there were hardly any society sympathisers in their ranks. Now, If SOMEONE stands to take Terra, it's probably not the horses, or ravens. Too distant, geographically. Might be the bears, they do have that obscene new battle bus. But more likely it's going to be the Falcons or the Wolves. The Foxes might be able to mobilize all their fleets and converge, but that sounds high risk, low reward for them.

So, If I was a sea fox, I'd be asking myself do I want a hardline, possibly insane falcon perched upon Terra's seat, Or do I want a Wolf who's probably not going to be all up in my business? Didn't FM3145 indicate some bad blood between falcon and fox?

If the bears enter the fray, I could see them possibly swaying sea fox support, but I think between the foremost contenders, the obvious choice is "Sell to the Wolves"

And if that Empire gets to be too much of a burden, well, there's the Fox-run clan hegemony right next door. Perhaps they're interested in a few planets?
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Kitsune413

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Clan Sea Fox wants the clans to be a "Normal" in the Inner Sphere. Average Joe Steiner needs to want to buy some Sea Fox Puffs cereal.

Malvina Hazen destabilizes that by ramming warships into planets which is definitely not normal and so is not wanted.

Marketing test groups of Sea Fox Puffs cereal boxes with A cute cartoon animorphic Jade Falcon riding a warship towards a planet sold 500% less well than the standard Sea Fox box.
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Archangel

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I agree that there is no love lost between the Falcons and Foxes especially after Malvina's ascension.  In addition, her actions reflect poorly upon the rest of the Clans which in turn hurts the Fox's image and complicates their business ventures.

The Wolves, on the other hand, are the type of customers the Foxes love.  Heavily dependent upon Fox products and assistance and willing to make concessions to get what they need.  In addition, since the Bear still appears to be sleeping, the Wolves are all that stands between the Falcons causing even more widespread chaos and mayhem to their business interests.
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Natasha Kerensky

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It says the Horses trialed DI back in the 3080s. The Wolves had 50 years to notice and aquire it themselves.

Eh... The Parash 3 text indicates that getting video of the Parash 3 or DI salvage has been a very rare thing for those 50 (actually 44 if I did the math right) years.  And when it did happen, the implications went unnoticed, even by other Clans and the Inner Sphere's best post-Jihad intel orgs in the Republic.  Maybe through the fiat of Kerensky, the Wolves got lucky with some video/isorla, and their Watch was also actually on the ball in recognizing the technology's potential.  But given the Parash 3 text and the lack of a follow-through DI design by the Horses, it seems somewhat more likely that the Horses made the Wolves aware of the DI technology, probably through their various design/development/manufacturing agreements with the Exiles (Cygnus, Hellstar) and probably after the Wolves abandoned their OZ, and struck a deal.

It's also possible that there is no link between the Parash 3 and Skinwalker.  At the end of the Skinwalker text, it states that Stone wants to know where the _Wolves_ got the DI technology, and that the Parash 3 is an unsatisfactory answer.  (Or maybe Stone is just getting post-freeze crazier and seeing Blakie conspiracies where there are none.)

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The Foxes are mentioned because they aquire everything.

Yeah, the Foxes certainly could have been an intermediary instead of or in addition to the Exiles. 

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The Ravens are mentioned because they used to build Storm Crows and the Wolves didn't

So did the Horses.  (They originated the Stormcrow design.)  It doesn't make sense to single out the Ravens over the Horses on Stormcrows if the Ravens are not actually connected to the Skinwalker.

It's also interesting that both of the two remaining Clan users of protomechs in the Inner Sphere get implicated in the Skinwalker's development, which makes sense given the DI technology.

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It is specifically said later that the Ravens aren't rich enough to exploit DI.

That motive may also be indicative of deals being struck, i.e., Ravens provide Stormcrow blueprints, parts, caches, or production in exchange for some of the upgraded Skinwalkers because the Ravens lack the resources to integrate the technology on a modified/new design themselves.

It's interesting to compare the spread of DI technology among the Council of Six to the spread of omnimech technology among the original Clans.  Some of that diffusion was done via trials of possession or isorla from other trials, but some diffusion was also done in the absence of trials (political or economic deals and outright sharing through alliances).

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It is a leap to connect this to the Wolves.

I didn't connect the Lev III to the Wolves.  I just said it's like the Council of Six is finally getting its act together.  As allies from before they left the Homeworlds and now with a common enemy in the Combine, the Bears and Ravens arguably should have been doing more than joint warship production a long time ago.

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Um. It barely says any of that.

I dunno.  Like most BT sources, and especially since the Jihad kicked off, XTRO:RIII is written ambiguously.  Your perspective depends heavily on what "hints" you want to take as actual foreshadowing versus what "hints" you think are merely red herrings.  Time will tell.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

marauder648

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I'm still trying to get my head around the actual benefits of being an IlClan.  Lets say the Wolves do it and capture and HOLD terra against the inevitable Republic counter attacks. 

Does this mean the rest of the Council of 6 then go "Oh okay, you're the boss, tell us what to do." and they obey, or would Malvina throw a massive hissy fit, the Bears get stroppy, the Ravens miss what was going on and the Horses just ignore it and basically all the Wolves get is bragging rights?
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Maelwys

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It could be that something the Council of Six has prepared for. for all we know they've been discussing it over the past 60 years, about what exactly would happen if one of them conquered Terra.

Whether the other Clans would actually live up to that however...

ArkRoyalRavager

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Eh... The Parash 3 text indicates that getting video of the Parash 3 or DI salvage has been a very rare thing for those 50 (actually 44 if I did the math right) years.  And when it did happen, the implications went unnoticed, even by other Clans and the Inner Sphere's best post-Jihad intel orgs in the Republic.

Seriously? The best? I must've missed all the SIS' "intelligence coups" since their founding.

Deadborder

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Seriously? The best? I must've missed all the SIS' "intelligence coups" since their founding.

That's why you missed them.

Seriously though, the SIS's achievements have been largely off-camera due to the fact that most of their operational time hasn't been covered in detail. With that being said, you can look at the fact that they were able to 'disappear' so much Word tech and information, and then secretly redevelop it without anyone else knowing is a good example of what they've been doing.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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They've been dropping the ball since Liao's Operation Golden Fortress, which is exactly since their founding or whatever they were before the SIS became official.

And no, they're not the ones who should get the credit for 'disappearing' the Word tech. The Cappies managed to smuggle the Osprey and Yao Lien for their own use. The "crippled" ComStar and its "no longer existing" ROM one-upped them by discovering the "disappeared" Word info and managed to come up with multiple effective designs and mass-producing them secretly, all the while under the watchful eyes of the RoTS and right in their own territory, just 30 light years away from Terra.

There're a lot of other stuff the SIS sucks at, but suffice to say, they're nothing compared to Word of Blake ROM or WolfNet, not even up there with post-Reform ROM or Successor State intel agency level.

Kitsune413

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I'm still trying to get my head around the actual benefits of being an IlClan.  Lets say the Wolves do it and capture and HOLD terra against the inevitable Republic counter attacks. 

Does this mean the rest of the Council of 6 then go "Oh okay, you're the boss, tell us what to do." and they obey, or would Malvina throw a massive hissy fit, the Bears get stroppy, the Ravens miss what was going on and the Horses just ignore it and basically all the Wolves get is bragging rights?

The Ilclan means you are the leader of the new Star League. The Clans are a collection of warrior tribes and the Ilkhan is their warleader.

If you become Ilclan then you get Ilkhan for life. You aren't supposed to be able to effect the internal affairs of another clan. But during times of war you have a lot of control.

The Inner Sphere Clans haven't had an Ilkhan. Technically Clan Star Adder had the last Ilkhan. But invading and home clans don't talk to eachother.

Theoretically if Alaric can conquer Terra he can then order the other clans to do whatever in a military campaign to rebuild the Star League.

If nobody complains that his genetic material barely has anything to do with the clans. Technically Katherine became a Wolf. But he is the trueborn progeny of two Freeborns who were never in the clans to begin with...
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Rtifs

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Normally I would argue that Alaric’s genetic background would result in a legitimacy challenge from the Jade Falcons, but under Malvina, they will have strenuous objections anyway. 

As a Jade Falcon, I pretty much understand the Wolves, except for one aspect.  Why do the Wolves like to take IS warriors, give them Ward bloodnames, and elevate them to khans?  Phelan’s qualification was a bit of a technicality, but understandable.  I don’t know why he was so welcomed though.  Alaric can’t even claim a technical qualification for the Ward name.  And his heritage isn’t a secret anymore.  I’m just surprised that no one in the Wolves has a problem with this. 

Kitsune413

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They do. Conservative elements of the Wolves aren't going to like him getting a Ward Bloodname.

The thing is that he took them from languishing uselessly in a hopeless and surrounded occupation zone to being poised to take Terra. Everyone loves a winner. So despite the faction of clan wolf that will want to see him fail the momentum is behind him and they will do anything to make that mote legitimate.

Phelan was technically a distant relative of the Wards anyways. Also, Ulric, the Khan, then the Ilkhan wanted it to happen. Ulric was also a a winner so the same forces were in motion.

Aiden Pryde pretended to be a freebirth for a long time. But. Winner.
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Auberan

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What can they question about his heritage? While yes, he called Katherine his mother, I'm sure the scientists that cooked him up along with whatever else was part of that Ironborn Sibko took the precautions that Vlad entrusted them with.

It is possible that on his record, Vlad Ward is his fore bearer, since the experiment was his and Katherine's together. Equally it is possible that they fudged the connection between Katherine and the Ward line, or that there was a connection somewhere, which let Alaric be considered part of the Ward Bloodhouse. Worse case scenario, there are a few markers in his genetic code that declare him a Ward, but are just inserted for that specific purpose.

As Alaric openly gave his DNA away to be tested to give credence to his claim as Katherine's son, yet has the dark secret trait and is willing to kill anyone who might be able to reveal he is not descended from a Clan warrior, there probably is some sort of genetic proof that gives him the claim to the Ward bloodname.

Kitsune413

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He isn't Katherine and Vlad Ward.

He is Victor SD and Katherine SD.

The clans operate under the idea that the people who left the inner sphere to form the clans were better than the other people in the inner sphere. Then the best of those left the Klondike world's and further found the best of those to create the clans.

So that one of these best of the best of the best would some day return to become the new leader of the star league.

Well what's happened instead is that two of the descendants of the barbarians of the inner sphere who are brother and sister are going to have their child conquer the inner sphere

Alaric Ward has nothing to do with the Clans. He has got Hanse Davion and Victor Steiner Davion blood.

Probably Hanse Davions plan all along...
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Kitsune413

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Hanse Davion: "Ahh. The descendants of Kerensky are returning. I see possibilities here. Now to fake my own death. Blow up my wife. Coach my Daughter to usurp the Lyran Commonwealth. Deploy my son to stop the clans. Create a fake Star League. Start a civil war to destabilize the inner sphere alliances. Exploit those crazy comstar Blake worshippers to try to destroy the Inner Sphere. Get cosmetic surgery and place myself in a crazy comstar concentration camp. Defeat the comstar crazies, create a star league shaped faction in the middle of the inner sphere FREEZE myself, then have my daughter create an incestuous clone of my son and daughter to conquer Terra and become the Real Star League. Such a simple plan!"

Stone is Hanse.
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marauder648

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Hanse Davion: "Ahh. The descendants of Kerensky are returning. I see possibilities here. Now to fake my own death. Blow up my wife. Coach my Daughter to usurp the Lyran Commonwealth. Deploy my son to stop the clans. Create a fake Star League. Start a civil war to destabilize the inner sphere alliances. Exploit those crazy comstar Blake worshippers to try to destroy the Inner Sphere. Get cosmetic surgery and place myself in a crazy comstar concentration camp. Defeat the comstar crazies, create a star league shaped faction in the middle of the inner sphere FREEZE myself, then have my daughter create an incestuous clone of my son and daughter to conquer Terra and become the Real Star League. Such a simple plan!"

Stone is Hanse.


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Kitsune413

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Everybody on the forums right now is just thinking, "God how could we have fallen for that cheesy heart attack?"

And, "How do we stop him? It's too late and he is a fictional character. Ilclan had already been written!"

I refuse to believe that this isn't what's really happened and I can't believe we all missed it.
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Natasha Kerensky

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I'm still trying to get my head around the actual benefits of being an IlClan.

Based on ComStar, Blakie, and Republic experience and insights, it seems that regardless of what the other Clans do, benefits will accrue to the ilClan just by having access to and control over Terra's rich resources, superior technology, and underutilized military manufacturing.  (Assuming that Terra doesn't get trashed in the process.)  The same is probably true to a lesser degree of other old Hegemony/core worlds.

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Does this mean the rest of the Council of 6 then go "Oh okay, you're the boss, tell us what to do." and they obey, or would Malvina throw a massive hissy fit, the Bears get stroppy, the Ravens miss what was going on and the Horses just ignore it and basically all the Wolves get is bragging rights?

Culturally, it's a lot more than bragging rights.  Terra and the old Hegemony worlds are the holy land and manifest destiny of Clans' cult of Kerensky and worship of all things Star League.  They go to the heart of Clan beliefs and the fundamental purpose of their society.  Seeing Clan (Kerensky?, Cameron?) rule on Terra and a Star League resurrected in the Clans' image (however perverted) would be like King Arthur coming back from Avalon to rule at Camelot.

That doesn't mean that there still won't be cynical and opportunistic Clan khans and ristars.  But the cultural significance of Terra, the old Hegemony, and the ilClan in the minds of the warriors and other castes may (will?) put brakes on the ambitions of Clan leaders.  There may (will?) be only so much these ambitious leaders can do if their warriors see more honor and glory in serving in the ilClan's resurrected SLDF than in fighting in their Clan's latest bid for power.  Because of centuries-old beliefs, the very existence of an ilClan holding power on Terra may (will?) bring order to Clan society, and Clan leaders may (will?) have to work within that order rather than constantly challenge it.

Or it may just be one huge, mutual Trial of Annihilation... who knows?
« Last Edit: 26 October 2015, 11:35:02 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Kitsune413

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Haha. God I hope that's the name of the next book after Ilclan, "One huge, mutual, Trial of Annihilation."
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Natasha Kerensky

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Seriously? The best? I must've missed all the SIS' "intelligence coups" since their founding.

... suffice to say, they're nothing compared to Word of Blake ROM or WolfNet, not even up there with post-Reform ROM or Successor State intel agency level.

I agree that Republic intel is no match for old ComStar ROM, Blakie ROM, or Wolfnet.  But I'd contend that the Republic beats out contemporary intel agencies.  Post-Jihad ComStar intel couldn't keep the Republic from finding out about the reformed ComGuards, and the entire organization died as a result.  Three of the five Successor States are teetering on the brink of defeat and/or dissolution, partly due to intel failures.  And no other contemporary state besides the Republic has played such a long, deep, and successful game of deception when it comes to Fortress Republic and the false flag raids being conducted outside the Fortress Wall.  On top of all that, most of our FMs and TROs these days are written from a Republic intel viewpoint, and historically these sources are written from the viewpoint of the most omniscient intel agency of the day (old ComStar ROM or WolfNet).

My 2 C-bills... YMMV.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."