The Wolf Empire: Our Khan Beat Devlin Stone in a Savage Wolf! Buy Savage Wolves!

[Deadborder]

yeah, it's awful that CGL makes products that people want to buy

[Kojak]

yeah, it's awful that CGL makes products that people want to buy

I agree with the point you're trying to make, but there was probably a less aggressively sarcastic way to put that, dude. I like you and Steve both and I think you're both capable of civil discussion, but that's not a great way to start one.

[Deadborder]

I agree with the point you're trying to make, but there was probably a less aggressively sarcastic way to put that, dude. I like you and Steve both and I think you're both capable of civil discussion, but that's not a great way to start one.

Yeah, I know. My fault, shooting off my mouth like that.

Point is, there's probably a number of reasons why ilClan has been bumped down the schedule so much, and there's probably any number of good reasons why CGL is working on the current products that they are rather than it in specific. I can't say why, and I can imagine that a lot of them are down to a combination of sales, cross-marketing with other Battletech products (Especially computer games) and other factors that we're not privy to. I can imagine that Topps being the final owners of the Battletech franchise also means they get some influence on the decision-making process, which again is well over our heads.

Steve, I'm not trying to sound rude or aggressive here, but your constant whining about it at every chance you get does not help the situation any. Don't get me wrong; I'd like to see it released as well, and I would like to see the storyline advance. But constantly attacking the writers, the company and any release that isn't the product you want, while also effectively denigrating products that other people are excited for doesn't create a positive atmosphere, nor does it actually constructively contribute to discussions.

[Kojak]

I think those are all totally fair points, and as often happens I feel like I'm kind of on both sides of this one. On the one hand, I certainly have no illusions that CGL is under any obligation to create products that I specifically am interested in (or any other specific fan, for that matter). The fanbase has a variety of interests, lots of people like the Succession Wars era or pre-Jihad stuff in general, and I certainly don't fault them for wanting to throw those folks a few bones since they probably were just as uninterested in the Jihad and 3145 stuff when that was the focus as I am in the SW and Clan Invasion stuff (although I am looking forward to the 1st/2nd SW Historicals just cuz I love a good Historical). And I don't envy the position that CGL is in, having to balance those various competing interests and still keep a relatively small fanbase interested enough for BT to continue to be viable; it's why, even though I have zero interest in Alpha Strike and products supporting it, I'm glad CGL is making bold moves like that to bring in new players and cater to the less detail-oriented. I personally am willing to be patient while they work on the moving-the-story-forward stuff.

On the other hand, I can see why not everyone might be willing to extend that patience. In a few months the ongoing story will have effectively been "on hold" (not counting the little teasers we got in the TRO 3150 fluff) for as long as the period between the end of the FCCW and the beginning of the Jihad (or Forever67, as I sometimes think of it), which was from 2002 to 2005; and unlike the relative lull/stasis that existed at the end of the FCCW, the current story's hold point has a whole lot of plates spinning at once. I can understand why folks would be frustrated not to see some of that moved to a similar lull point; it can feel like getting halfway into a story and then being told you have to wait years and years for the rest of it. Now, I agree that it's not really fair to denigrate CGL for choosing to focus on other parts of the setting at the moment, but at the same time no fan is under any obligation to be happy about that fact. Ultimately, it's up to each individual player to decide whether it's worth the wait; I know I'll wait it out, but I can't fault others for not making the same choice.

[Miz Anna]

I'm in kind of a funny position here, forex, my TRO:3150 should arrive tomorrow, I'm painting Dragoons, Wolf Empire, and Wolf Hunters minis for DA, but I'm so totally jazzed that we're going to get SW books, oh - if we get Era Reports for the 4th Secession War-timeframe - and plastics that I can use to make Nasty and the Black Widows, you'll hear how happy I am from wherevers you are. :)

I guess one way I can put it is this, I like historical minis as well, I can enjoy painting my British for the Victoria-era, and 101st Airborne for D-Day in the same session, and really Battletech is the only sf game I can think of that gives me the same feels, I'm also painting Dragoons for Misery/4thSW while I'm painting Wolf Empire. I love that about Battletech, that I get those same feels. :)

[Vlads Fangs]

Just checking in.Have we been killed/won yet?.Anything SOLID on the IlClan yet? I saw the new dice  ::)

[Rainbow 6]

No, no and nice aren't they.

[bobthecoward]

I'm late to the party. Anyone use this name?

License to il

[GarageBay9]

Just checking in.Have we been killed/won yet?.Anything SOLID on the IlClan yet? I saw the new dice  ::)

Honestly?

I think they wrote themselves into a corner and are back-filling with Age of War stuff while they figure out what to do beyond 3150.

[Scotty]

Herb is pretty consistent when he says that post-3150 got canned because of a violent negative response by a minority of posters on the forums.  Despite popular misconception, he doesn't actually lie about things.

[Sartris]

Herb is pretty consistent when he says that post-3150 got canned because of a violent negative response by a minority of posters on the forums.  Despite popular misconception, he doesn't actually lie about things.

my sense of timing might be badly off on this, but i believe the blurb for ilClan on the coming releases page was added well after the 3250 guanostorm. I think they know what they want to do but work has slowed to focus on the Combat Manuals and other alpha strike stuff

[Maelwys]

Herb is pretty consistent when he says that post-3150 got canned because of a violent negative response by a minority of posters on the forums.  Despite popular misconception, he doesn't actually lie about things.

I thought the dislike was for a possible time jump to 3250, rather than "We don't want to see anything post 3145." There's a big difference between the two concepts.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

my sense of timing might be badly off on this, but i believe the blurb for ilClan on the coming releases page was added well after the 3250 guanostorm. I think they know what they want to do but work has slowed to focus on the Combat Manuals and other alpha strike stuff

While I think you're correct, I also wonder if they have had a change of heart about what is the story they want to tell post-3145.  The seemingly sudden switching of gears to look backwards in BattleTech's timeline may be a way to help give time to reevaluate and if necessary adopt new plans for the future of the storyline. 

[Elcor05]

I thought the dislike was for a possible time jump to 3250, rather than "We don't want to see anything post 3145." There's a big difference between the two concepts.

Can anyone fill me in on what happened there?

[Colt Ward]

IIRC it was . . . 100 year jump, new weapons so superior to everything else they retire the old PPC, etc but the number is down to 16 or something.  New equipment is so superior to everything your favorite Timberwolf is now the equivalent of trying to use a old IBM typewriter in the office.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Different complaints seemed to focus on different rumors.  AFAIR the biggies were:

Time Jump- we just had a leap from 3085 to the Dark Age.  An even bigger leap of 100 years would be more of the same, but only MORE so.  And/or there's a perfectly good setting in 3145 so why throw it away with a time jump?

"Rules reboot"- establishing a new, 2nd ED boxed set-sized weapons catalog to replace all the weapon diversity of TW/TO (and maybe SO) definitely did not sparkle with some.  We didn't know whether there was actually going to be a rules reboot, and if so whether or not TW/TO would be backwards compatible, but there was alot of fear that there would be a reboot and that said reboot would render everything you own now unusable in the new rules.

I find it a bit telling that TPTB are willing to let it "be known" that the former is no longer on the table, but they're much more coy about the latter.  Then again, since a rules reboot was never actually a for-sure, known thing that was being planned, there may simply be nothing for TPTB to refute.

[ColBosch]

Can anyone fill me in on what happened there?

Someone broke NDA (non-disclosure agreement) and told a buddy about some very early concepts for a 100-year time jump. Said buddy then blew up the forums complaining about it. The line developer was forced to bring it into the light far too early; the project was barely months into a five-year (IIRC) development plan. Fan reactions were actually rather positive, but a loud-mouthed few got on their soapboxes and decried the whole thing, despite "the whole thing" not being finished yet. Contrary to rumor - and yes, Herb himself - it wasn't fan reaction which canned the project, but internal politics at IMR/CGL...but those few jerks certainly didn't help.

I'd rather not go into specifics on the 3250 setting, as I was under a NDA myself, and I don't want to reveal anything that might still be in the upcoming IlClan sourcebook. But I can confirm that work was being done on a new generation of technology. The goal was to semi-reset things to where a new boxed set could serve as a full introduction to the universe, much like the original BattleTech games, and new players wouldn't have to buy a set of hardback books to know what each bit of equipment does. The new tech would be superior to what we see now, but not so overwhelming that you couldn't mix it up in games. The "16 weapons" would all be new; nobody was planning on cutting out anything that had been published.

Another very important thing to point out is that, in general, fan opinion of the Dark Age era is pretty low. I ran a poll in the General Discussion subforum about what eras people want to see developed further, and nearly 50% of votes were either for the end of the Dark Age and into the presumed ilClan era, or for a time jump past it. Indeed, if we ignore the First Succession War (since it's getting a sourcebook today, if everything goes well), the top vote getters were End of Dark/IlClan (at an astonishing 36.2%), Third Succession War (10.2%; ****** nostalgia votes), Time Jump past ilClan (6.7%), Stay in the Dark Age (6.3%), and Age of War (5.5%); nothing else got more than 3.9% of the votes. I am confident that, several years ago when the 3250 was brought to light, fan opinion of the Dark Age was even lower.

[bobthecoward]

Someone broke NDA (non-disclosure agreement) and told a buddy about some very early concepts for a 100-year time jump. Said buddy then blew up the forums complaining about it. The line developer was forced to bring it into the light far too early; the project was barely months into a five-year (IIRC) development plan. Fan reactions were actually rather positive, but a loud-mouthed few got on their soapboxes and decried the whole thing, despite "the whole thing" not being finished yet. Contrary to rumor - and yes, Herb himself - it wasn't fan reaction which canned the project, but internal politics at IMR/CGL...but those few jerks certainly didn't help.

I'd rather not go into specifics on the 3250 setting, as I was under a NDA myself, and I don't want to reveal anything that might still be in the upcoming IlClan sourcebook. But I can confirm that work was being done on a new generation of technology. The goal was to semi-reset things to where a new boxed set could serve as a full introduction to the universe, much like the original BattleTech games, and new players wouldn't have to buy a set of hardback books to know what each bit of equipment does. The new tech would be superior to what we see now, but not so overwhelming that you couldn't mix it up in games. The "16 weapons" would all be new; nobody was planning on cutting out anything that had been published.

Another very important thing to point out is that, in general, fan opinion of the Dark Age era is pretty low. I ran a poll in the General Discussion subforum about what eras people want to see developed further, and nearly 50% of votes were either for the end of the Dark Age and into the presumed ilClan era, or for a time jump past it. Indeed, if we ignore the First Succession War (since it's getting a sourcebook today, if everything goes well), the top vote getters were End of Dark/IlClan (at an astonishing 36.2%), Third Succession War (10.2%; ****** nostalgia votes), Time Jump past ilClan (6.7%), Stay in the Dark Age (6.3%), and Age of War (5.5%); nothing else got more than 3.9% of the votes. I am confident that, several yearmanagement the 3250 was brought to light, fan opinion of the Dark Age was even lower.

I have two thoughts.

Maybe leadership was right? I know it sometimes feels like creative losing to management but maybe it was the right choice....I don't know.

Era report 3145, the field manual, and the digest were so damn good.

[ColBosch]

Maybe leadership was right? I know it sometimes feels like creative losing to management but maybe it was the right choice....I don't know.

I'm sure they feel it was the right decision, but I disagree. I strongly suspect that company management - above the actual game developers, I should say - has bought into a piss-poor marketing plan. Have you seen the Classic BattleTech Twitter feed? It's so full of hashtags and buzzwords that there's barely any content. It's rather painful in ways to watch, since it reminds me so much of big corporate trying to scrabble for nostalgia dollars.

(By the way, IMR/Harebrained: your video game fans are nostalgic for games set in the 3050s, not the 3020s.)

Era report 3145, the field manual, and the digest were so damn good.

Yup. They definitely have made converts of many previous Dark Age haters. Still, the general opinion of the period is low. Just because Catalyst managed to polish a turd to a high-gloss shine doesn't mean that it's not still shit. Too much of the era was decreed from on-high, and it's a miracle the writers managed to get it as good as it is.

[Maelwys]

Of course, some of those voters might not necessarily hate the Dark Ages, and just figure that CGL/FP/Wizkids has already covered it, and want the story to progress, rather than staying in an era that has already had sourcebooks and novels dedicated to it. A vote for ilClan may not be a vote for hatred of DA, but an expression of "Lets get to the next part of the storyline."

[ColBosch]

I'll concede that point. Accurately gauging fan interest is hard.

[Sartris]

the interest for the post-3150 era in your poll was even higher than the 36% indicated. 145 voted in the poll and 92 picked ilClan... so nearly two in three people picked post-3150 as one of their choices.

[ColBosch]

the interest for the post-3150 era in your poll was even higher than the 36% indicated. 145 voted in the poll and 92 picked ilClan... so nearly two in three people picked post-3150 as one of their choices.

That's part of why I allowed two votes per person. For the past fifteen years or so, BattleTech has been a multi-era setting. Look at the last four major supplements published. One is for the First Succession War, one is split between the late Third Succession War and early Clan Invasion, one is (very) late Dark Age, and the last covers literally every era at once (IO).

[marauder648]

Real Clan Wolf/Wolf Empire problems.

[ColBosch]

Noice!

Also, I forgot to include my point as to why my talk of post-Dark Age stuff is important to this thread: Clan Wolf was going to be a major part of the post-Republic era. Again, not going into specifics, but the general plot should be obvious to anyone who follows the Clan.

[Colt Ward]

*dig* Really?  TPTB seem interested in exterminating the Wolves as evidenced by Arc Royal being overrun.  The Crusader Wolves on the other hand . . .

[ColBosch]

*dig* Really?  TPTB seem interested in exterminating the Wolves as evidenced by Arc Royal being overrun.  The Crusader Wolves on the other hand . . .

*deeper* Yeah, the bad guys were going to win.

[Decoy]

Define good. Define bad. I would hate it more if a bad character, like Anastasia Kerensky, Danai Liao, or Julian Davion were to "win".

[Jellico]

*dig* Really?  TPTB seem interested in exterminating the Wolves as evidenced by Arc Royal being overrun.  The Crusader Wolves on the other hand . . .

Understandably. Interbreeding with local wild dogs produces hybrids which are useless for the purposes of preserving the species. ;)

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Just because Catalyst managed to polish a turd to a high-gloss shine doesn't mean that it's not still shit. Too much of the era was decreed from on-high, and it's a miracle the writers managed to get it as good as it is.

While the story arc is good, the writing was anything but. The faction TRO releases were mishandled and if you're a fan of the wrong faction in the FM, the lack of details will majorly frustrate. I'm not going to describe all the ambiguous writing of everything post-Bonfire of Worlds as "polish a turd to a high-gloss shine", not when you have to pay for TRO re-runs that tease everything without revealing anything even remotely concrete.