Author Topic: The Wolf Empire: Our Khan Beat Devlin Stone in a Savage Wolf! Buy Savage Wolves! (Read 198754 times)

Deadborder · « **Reply #390 on:** 17 December 2016, 17:56:25 »

More likely its a generified non-indicative RAT for a cheap PDF product. The use of the Orion IIC on the RAT is more likely there as a relatively generic Heavy 'Mech of the era rather then developing eighteen relatively similar RATs.

After all, the same RAT gives the Crossbow and Battle Cobra to every Clan when historically they're limited to the Vipers and Spirits

SteveRestless · « **Reply #391 on:** 17 December 2016, 18:20:45 »

Yeah, the presence of the Stone Rhino gave me similar pause.

I lean to the notion that the RAT in question isn't really all that handy for force building.

ColBosch · « **Reply #392 on:** 17 December 2016, 18:24:43 »

Repeat after me (c'mon, you should know the words by now): RATS ARE THERE TO PROVIDE PLAYERS WITH A FAST MEANS TO GENERATE FACTION-FLAVORED FORCES FOR A GAME. THEY DO NOT DEFINE NOR ARE THEY PARTICULARLY INDICATIVE OF CANON.

ColBosch · « **Reply #393 on:** 17 December 2016, 18:32:47 »

...that's me agreeing, actually. :D

Colt Ward · « **Reply #394 on:** 17 December 2016, 18:49:33 »

Problem with that is the RAT puts a mech in the force that is 'faction flavored' only if your a Wolf- and a special Wolf at that . . . so I would agree with Steve that it makes it somewhat useless for period flavor.

SteveRestless · « **Reply #395 on:** 23 December 2016, 19:20:34 »

I mean, it WOULD be pretty cool if there was a coordinated wolf initiative to hunt Orion IIcs down and repossess or render them irreparable... That'd potentially make for an interesting pre-REVIVAL Campaign.

Vlads Fangs · « **Reply #396 on:** 01 January 2017, 05:39:03 »

HAPPY WOLF EMPIRE FOUNDING DAY!

Colt Ward · « **Reply #397 on:** 02 January 2017, 00:30:51 »

Plopped something on the table I rarely get a chance to do so- a Dire Wolf Widowmaker done up in Savage Coyote's take on the 13th Wolf Guards from nearly 15 years ago.

The Widowmaker plodded across the map- maybe 20-25 hexes- with a few turns laying into Spheriod mechs with LPL and a ERPPC with the occasional shots of ERML & at the end UAC/20. After a Phantom stripped the armor of a Raven's leg, spotting for A4 Homing, and ally's IDF LRMs crippled the leg. The Widowmaker put it down at long range. A few shots to a Huron Warrior while it ran behind the next row of buildings, chasing the heavies that had fallen back in that gap. For the final three turns the Dire Wolf walked into the gap between buildings (targets disappeared), ran a left hook which put a Marauder 5S at 4 hexes (6s for UAC/20, missed!) and then plodded after the Marauder which jumped away to beat on the fallen Phantom. Finally tapped a Cataphract with the 20, missed the double but put the rest of the salvo except a ERPPC (only fired 1 for heat) into the lightly damaged Cataphract. A AC/20 hit, 2 LPL, ERML and ERSL makes it no longer 'lightly' damaged so a IDF LRM spread finished off the open torso for XL death.

Even being a 4/5, only way to get it on the table under the BV limit and have anything else to play, it still did a good job. It was the anvil to the Phantom & supporting lights hammer.

Decoy · « **Reply #398 on:** 02 January 2017, 17:02:15 »

I've played configurations similar to the Widowmaker and they are worth the BV....except when they're headshot on the first or second turn. *shakes his fist at an FGC or two*

Colt Ward · « **Reply #399 on:** 26 January 2017, 23:54:44 »

'A few Orion IIC BattleMechs traveled to the Inner Sphere with Phelan Kell's Wolves and remain part of Clan-Wolf-in-Exile's second line forces. However, no one seems to have plans to produce this 'Mech-a possible gesture of reconciliation by Phelan Kell toward the Wolf Clan.'

-TRO 3060

. . . what if the Warden Wolves had kept building a few Orion IICs like the Invasion & Crusader Wolves seem to have built them- a few a year. Makes me wonder if they were hand built even if the TRO entry says WC Aux Site #2 . . . tried to compare the parts to see if they used a lot of the same stuff the Timberwolf used in its construction but unless they have part names in TRO3050u which I do not have.

SteveRestless · « **Reply #400 on:** 28 January 2017, 14:01:18 »

Well, they both use the Series III OPT Targeting & Tracking system.

Some of the technologies are different generations though. like, the Comm Suite is a Khan Series Type 2c on the Timber Wolf, but a Khan Series Type 1 on the Orion IIc. Type W3 Endo Steel Structure on the Timber Wolf, Type W2 Endo Steel on the Orion IIc. Interestingly, the Armor Composition reverses that. Timber Wolf uses A-2 Ferro Fibrous, while the Orion IIc uses A-4.

The reactors are completely unrelated. Starfire 375XL versus Heavy Force 300 SFE.

Weapons-wise, it's ambiguous. all of the Orion IIc's weapon types are used on one configuration or another of the Timber Wolf. Gauss, SRM-4 on the B, ERLLs on the Prime and C, LRM-20 on the Prime. They COULD be the same models, they could be different. I doubt we'll ever really know. 3050u does not give models for the guns.

What strikes me, is that the Republic apparently builds some Orion IIcs and the respective clans wolf do absolutely nothing about it.

Jaim Magnus · « **Reply #401 on:** 28 January 2017, 14:11:29 »

Which, granted, is odd, but maybe they're meant for the small amount of Enclave Wolves?

SteveRestless · « **Reply #402 on:** 28 January 2017, 15:38:47 »

Given that the example we're aware of is "Burton Davion" unless Davion became a Wolf Bloodname when I was not looking, I doubt it.

Jaim Magnus · « **Reply #403 on:** 28 January 2017, 16:05:55 »

Huh, must've overlooked that.

Well, just one more of those inexplicable things that the Republic got away with then.

Deadborder · « **Reply #404 on:** 28 January 2017, 16:25:31 »

The Republic doesn't build Orion IICs. The ones they have are veterans of Delta Galaxy that wound up in the RAF, and there's never been even the slightest indication that they build them. I'd love to know why you think the Republic builds them.

Burton's Orion IIC is your standard "named character custom 'Mech". It's been modified at some point, possibly by it's current MechWarrior, possibly not. It's main role is to give the player a cool "hero" unit for use in a scenario.

SteveRestless · « **Reply #405 on:** 28 January 2017, 17:12:10 »

Quote from: Deadborder on 28 January 2017, 16:25:31

The Republic doesn't build Orion IICs. The ones they have are veterans of Delta Galaxy that wound up in the RAF, and there's never been even the slightest indication that they build them. I'd love to know why you think the Republic builds them.

Burton's Orion IIC is your standard "named character custom 'Mech". It's been modified at some point, possibly by it's current MechWarrior, possibly not. It's main role is to give the player a cool "hero" unit for use in a scenario.

Well, since the product it's from was released under my embargo against products that don't advance the storyline or detail the pre-invasion clans, I'm admittedly relying on secondhand information here. I asked my friend who DOES have the product, from whom I got the impression in the first place. Apparently they were basing it on (A) Burton's custom, and (B) the fact that the ROTS RAT from that book gives a 11% chance at getting an Orion IIC. Which is a little strange, since what, a single frontline galaxy went over to the republic from the wolves? Just how many Orion IIc's could reasonably have been in Delta to begin with?

Jellico · « **Reply #406 on:** 28 January 2017, 17:21:28 »

180 Mechs in a 4 Cluster Galaxy.
60% Strength is normal in 3085.
Say 30% chance of a Heavy.
An 11%

So... 4 Orion IICs.

Deadborder · « **Reply #407 on:** 28 January 2017, 18:02:43 »

Funnily enough, we had this exact same discussion about this exact same 'Mech just a page earlier.

It's a RAT.

It does not define canon.

It is not indicative of canon.

The Orion IIC appears on one RAF RAT for one part of a Historical publication that, you, by your own words, don't even own and haven't read to gage the context. All that means is that there are Orion IICs in the RAF. It does not define hard numbers.

Get over it.

Deadborder · « **Reply #408 on:** 28 January 2017, 18:49:28 »

As a further annendum; canon sources give us a total of possibly two Orion IICs in RAF service. First is Burton Davion's 'Mech. The second is an ex-Steel Wolf Orion IIC from the Wolf Hunters novel which can be assumed to come from RAF stock (but is not explicitly said to be such). All that proves is that there are (were?) Orion IICs in the RAF.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #409 on:** 28 January 2017, 22:59:36 »

Yeah, Tal Sender who took it with him to join a merc group leading his star or binary and a binary of vehicles and some Elementals.

Wonder if the attitude is they are ok, but outside of that they track down.

Deadborder · « **Reply #410 on:** 29 January 2017, 01:54:51 »

Thwere's never been a single indicator that the Wolves track or hunt down non-Wolf Orion IICs. Honestly, it's an excrutiatingly minor matter that would be a waste of valuable time and resources for some minor stocking point. This is doubly true in a huge envrionment like the Inner Sphere nad especially after the Blackout where there's no form of effective interstellar communication.

Jellico · « **Reply #411 on:** 29 January 2017, 05:40:50 »

But but... what about the factory on Terra that started making them in 3092 and has been successfully defeating Trials of Refusal from Clan Wolf ever since?

Colt Ward · « **Reply #412 on:** 29 January 2017, 13:57:53 »

I will give you after the Jihad they may not have but before that-

"Clan Wolf has jealously guarded the Orion IIC design, defending their exclusive right to it in Trials of Possession and refusing all proposed trades for other technologies, despite some generous offers. Like the Kerensky bloodheritages, Clan Wolf sees the Orion IIC as tied to their honor, as the guardians of Kerensky's legacy."

The fact that they let some from Delta join Stone as well as any the Republic may have inherited from Warden units or warriors that joined- or just plain salvaged from the Jihad- would add to your point that its value was slipping. Interestingly enough, the same seems to be applying to the Kerensky bloodname among the Crusader Wolves as of the Dark Ages.

But my questions were about the late 3050s and 3060s when the Wardens were setting up- a What If about it going more mainstream among the Wardens. For instance, would Crusader wannabes try to take Orion IICs as isorla from the Warden Wolves?

Deadborder · « **Reply #413 on:** 29 January 2017, 15:27:12 »

It's an idea that works in theory with the closed environment of the Homeworlds and the very limited and formal nature of Clan trials and bidding. It completely falls apart in the Inner Sphere where you have a much larger environment and enemies that don't ask before starting a fight. Even before the Jihad, trying to track down and eliminate individual BattleMechs is an exercise in futility and a waste of precious resources.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #414 on:** 29 January 2017, 17:42:29 »

Which is why I said I can see it going by the wayside during & after the Jihad. It might also be linked to the waning power of the Kerensky Bloodhouse and lines among the Crusader Wolves.

Which is why I was talking more about the 'What if' of if the Wardens had started producing it more.

Deadborder · « **Reply #415 on:** 29 January 2017, 22:12:05 »

It's not even by the Jihad. Even during and immediately after the Clan Invasion, the whole limited trial mindset becomes impossible to enforce. Between battlefield losses, salvage, raiding and so forth, tracking a single BattleMech becomes near impossible. The Wolves have more important things to worry about then tracking and eliminating individuals of some second line 'Mech, regardless of its perceived symbolic value. Doing such would be a waste of time and resources that are better spent on building and defending their OZ (Which the Wolves chronically mismanged anyway, but that's beside the point)

The waning of the Kerensky bloodname has nothing at all to do with the Orion IIC. At a guess, I'd say that it's due to the Wars of Reaving, the Jihad, and the effects both had on the Wolves' genetic stocks.

Kojak · « **Reply #416 on:** 30 January 2017, 17:34:40 »

Is the Kerensky bloodline waning? The last two saKhans have been Kerenskys (Garner and now Anastasia), and I'm pretty sure the latter is going to end up ilKhan. Even by the standards of that bloodline, that's not exactly a nadir.

Deadborder · « **Reply #417 on:** 30 January 2017, 17:47:07 »

I'd vote Anna K. for ilKhan.

It was mentioned in FM3145 (I don't have my copy to hand for a reference, sorry) that the Kerensky bloodline had been in decline for some time. It had been producing smaller sibkos with high wash-out rates, with the note that this was happening across both Wolf clans.

While not out-right stated, I got the implication that Anastasia being Natasha's genetic daughter was an indicator of the problem. The Exiles being willing to use matertial from somebody who had been dead for nearly half a century flies in the face of usual clan thinking.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #418 on:** 30 January 2017, 17:52:14 »

Garner was written as a idiot . . .

. . . and Anastasia's bloodlines while Kerensky come from outside the Crusader Kerensky bloodhouse- they are Warden. Natasha's legacy may not be in use to the Crusaders due to Elias meddling, or she may have removed it period which would be why she gave a sample to Phelan as they parted. Regardless I do not see it being held in high esteem among the Crusaders. Ulric's offspring? Not likely among Crusaders, and the only one we ever know of that I recall was Katya who went to the Republic. Bonfire seemed to indicate that the Kerensky line had not been as powerful after the Jihad and that not many of the higher ranks were in Kerensky hands. In FM3145 the only other Star Colonel or higher ranked than the two mentioned would be Star Colonel Clifford Kerensky (9th Wolf Cavalry). Pretty sure in FMCC, and lol FMWC, I know in WCSB we had more Kerensky bloodnamed among those upper ranks.

And as I look . . . there are way too many Guards clusters as well unless Vlad or his successor was handing out that title like candy during the Jihad.

Deadborder · « **Reply #419 on:** 30 January 2017, 21:35:40 »

Quote from: Kojak on 30 January 2017, 17:34:40

Is the Kerensky bloodline waning? The last two saKhans have been Kerenskys (Garner and now Anastasia), and I'm pretty sure the latter is going to end up ilKhan. Even by the standards of that bloodline, that's not exactly a nadir.

Aha, got it. And I completely screwed up the reference.

Era Report 3145, pg 109, Ganrer Kerensky. "The Kerensky Bloodline has been on the decline for five decades ... fewer sibkos created each year ... those cadets who emerge fail to live up to the high standards established by the bloodline's pedigree... Garner Kerensky is a rare exception to the downward trend."

So yeah, that sounds like a withering bloodline to me. And as mentioned, Garner is no longer saKhan in 3150, which is pretty high on the Dull Surprise index.