Tell me about: The Solitaire

[Getz]

So, I got a 15,000 bv game in on Saturday - Word of Blake versus Ghost Bears, it went pretty well for my toaster worshipping loonies - and included in my opponents's force were a pair of Solitaire 1s supporting a couple of Dashers.

I have only once before encountered a Solitaire, and a good few years ago at that.  That time I casually popped it's head off with a Ebon Jag Prime before it got to do anything so it didn't really get a chance to show me what it was made of.

This time, both Solitaires lasted the game and they did absolutely nothing for my opponent.  They missed literally every shot they made and I started thinking, only some of this is bad luck - I'd intentionally got them tangled up with my lighter faster machines but even with 3/4 pilots driving them they've not had a target number lower than eight, and usually they've been forced to go for nines and tens.

Clearly the Solitaire is not suited for hunting lights or mediums that can generate a high target modifier (I was using a Mercury 99 and Lightray 4Y), but my friend was leery of sending them against my slower stuff too because he was conscious that if he closed to short range, he was moving into optimal range for my biggest guns and no matter how fast he moved he ran a significant risk of being obliterated by my Gauss Rifles, PPCs and Large Lasers without being likely to get a kill in exchange.

So I was wondering, what's your experience with the Solitaire?  Is it basically a suicide machine where you get once chance to tear in and burn something big down before inevitably getting swatted in retaliation, or am I missing something?

[JadeHellbringer]

It's not something you give to an iffy gunner. Gunnery 3 is kind of tough to swallow with those heavy lasers- a 2 is more like it.

But yeah, once you put someone worth his/her salt in there, this thing is a demon. I faced one a few years ago in a grinder that happily cut the rear of a Turkina Prime to ribbons, slicing into it, sneaking away to cool down on turns when its opponent (hi!) moved after it did, and making an absolute nuisance of itself. Hard to hit, no ammo, viciously-powerful weaponry... I was nothing but impressed. I prefer jumping snipers like the Pack Hunter, but as a 'run up and make someone's rear armor a fond memory' unit this is second to none. Your opponent just had the kind of bad luck that I'm known for- a few solid hits and your battle goes a very different direction.

Fun trick- try pairing a couple of them up with Pirhanas or (if you can get them) Arctic Wolves- the regular version, not the omni. Those big holes the heavy lasers open up are just begging to get filled with small hits like MG or SRM shots, and those units not only provide those in spades, but can roughly keep pace with the Solitaires. Rear-area madness, ho!

[Getz]

I suppose I should mention that I had a Shootist with an ace gunner and a ton of precision munitions on board bodyguarding my big hitters.  I had brought it in the expectation of facing Vipers and it was most certainly a major part of his decision not to run in on my heavy forces.

[mbear]

It's not something you give to an iffy gunner. Gunnery 3 is kind of tough to swallow with those heavy lasers- a 2 is more like it.

But yeah, once you put someone worth his/her salt in there, this thing is a demon. I faced one a few years ago in a grinder that happily cut the rear of a Turkina Prime to ribbons, slicing into it, sneaking away to cool down on turns when its opponent (hi!) moved after it did, and making an absolute nuisance of itself. Hard to hit, no ammo, viciously-powerful weaponry... I was nothing but impressed. I prefer jumping snipers like the Pack Hunter, but as a 'run up and make someone's rear armor a fond memory' unit this is second to none. Your opponent just had the kind of bad luck that I'm known for- a few solid hits and your battle goes a very different direction.

Fun trick- try pairing a couple of them up with Pirhanas or (if you can get them) Arctic Wolves- the regular version, not the omni. Those big holes the heavy lasers open up are just begging to get filled with small hits like MG or SRM shots, and those units not only provide those in spades, but can roughly keep pace with the Solitaires. Rear-area madness, ho!

What about pairing them with magclamp equipped battle armor? Run into range, drop the BA, open holes in armor, let BA fire into holes.

[JadeHellbringer]

What about pairing them with magclamp equipped battle armor? Run into range, drop the BA, open holes in armor, let BA fire into holes.

With magclamp BA being relatively rare to come by still in Clan service, and the Solitaire's weaponry being torso-mounted (thus no firing while you move into BA range), I'd skip this idea, to be honest. There's better Mechs to use as Elemental-taxis, at the end of the day (the classic Fire Moth being a much better option almost every time). Let the Solitaire do what it does best- be a speedy can-opener- and don't bog it down with new jobs that it doesn't really excel at.

[TigerShark]

It's an excellent 'Mech. I think it's best suited for battles where Zellbrigen has been discarded, however. If it runs up against a heavier design, you need only back yourself to an unapproachable corner to eliminate the rear arc shots and this thing is usually toast. But that can only be done in a 1-on-1 scenario, like during an honor duel. In a more open environment (Trinary-sized engagements), or against Inner Sphere, it's a monster.

[GermanSumo]

thats the "victor"-issue. you can jump (or run very fast) and have one  BIG ****** gun. the target modifiers go way up. no matter how much youre told in the fluff to use these mashines for hunting light mechs. you just wont hit anything. youre often better suited to use that sweet mobility to attack slow, massive enemies. or - if your weapons range far enough - use them as snipers. the panther is one such example. i prefer to use my panthers as support. stay in a heavy forest as long as you can and use other machines to pin the enemy down. and then use its mobility to redeploy into other nice spots if needed. you may not actually kill anybody. but several 10 point hits will accumulate on your enemies.

[AldanFerrox]

I used a custom version of the Solitaire with Improved Heavy Lasers in a match some time ago. It performed very good thanks to the increased accuracy. That was until a enemy PPC hit exploded the Improved Heavy Large Laser.

[JadeHellbringer]

I used a custom version of the Solitaire with Improved Heavy Lasers in a match some time ago. It performed very good thanks to the increased accuracy. That was until a enemy PPC hit exploded the Improved Heavy Large Laser.

"Other than THAT, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"  ;D

[Fat Guy]

My experience pretty much mirrors everyone else's. Without a good gunner they ain't hitting much. With a good gunner they can be pure evil.

[Getz]

Of course, with a good gunner they're really expensive...

That said, I'm beginning to suspect that putting anything worse than a gunnery skill 2 pilot in a Solitaire is being penny wise but pound foolish.  If you're going to field one, you've got to make peace with the fact that you need to spend the big Bv if you want to get the big results...

[Moonsword]

Like a lot of Clan lights, the Solitaire is a real "death or glory" type.  When they work, they're murderous.  When they don't work, you're usually getting the pilot out of the cockpit with a hose and a Squeegee.  Bring a good gunner and wait for someone to do something stupid, then knife them in the back.

[Jellico]

I have a pretty low opinion of them.

Inaccurate weapons that produce too much heat slowing you down for the run part of run and gun.

Even then 10 MP is line ball because unlike say a Locust IIC any firing turn leave you so hot you have to cool down the next turn.

And I am not a big fan of giant single hit weapons in a back shooting role. 10 and 7 are the magic thresholds. Mechs with more back armour are rare. And there is a large chance you will hit an arm or leg instead. You want enough hits to clear some rear armour then throw some cluster rounds through the breach. A single big weapon either misses or hits an arm.

[marauder648]

I found the Solitare to be a real bully for big Mechs. No one wants to see a Solitaire go hooting, braying and gibbering past and round behind a big assault Mech before applying a heavy large laser diode to your backside.  But its really a bit of a one trick pony.  Against fast Mech's, they bump the TMM up so high that its a darn tricky shot. With the heavies and assaults you can keep the TMM fairly low but you've still got to get suicidally close to pull off the Solitare's trick of ripping open damn near anything's back with a single shot.

[Colt Ward]

IMO the Solitaires were designed to fight the Inner Sphere like some of the other Clan units produced in later years.  The Sharks were making it for sale, and it was bought to replace losses and provide some numbers to the Bears (moving) and Wolves (Refusal recovery) though I am not sure the Wolves bought many.  It was a export item for the Sharks.

Against regular or even veteran IS units in the mid 60s while being run by regular or veteran Clan units its going to hammer the big slow targets.  Facing the Lyran Wall of Steel or Drac's collection of Atlas, Akuma, Sunders and Maulers its going to either get in for those back shots or keep mechs/vehicles with Large Pulse or later Snub PPCs in to try to keep them off.  Or Schiltrons, though I prefer SRM spam to deal with assault vehicles.  The Solitaire should also be a 'pattern' fire platform . . . you make your first pass against a target at a range of 5 hexes and just fire the Large Heavy.  Once you connect with the back torso (may take more than 1 pass), you close in to 3 hexes and give it the Meds and Small.  In a large game do not be afraid to run a star of Solitaire, Locust IIC 4/5, Incubus 4 or Omnis like Fire Moth & Phantom H.

Honestly, it sounds as if your opponent did not position the Solitaires to take advantage of when he won initiative.  I would have traded a SIE for that Shootist simply because it would have dropped the bodyguard to allow my other flankers in to worry your assault & heavies.  In big fights you are going to lose something, the point is to make the trade worthwhile for you- its always great when a pawn takes out the queen.

[packhntr]

I tweaked the loadout on one a while back....stripped out the weapons and dropped in a ERPPC.  Kept it at range with a decent pilot and was backstabbing at range.  Devastating to say the least.

[Getz]

Honestly, it sounds as if your opponent did not position the Solitaires to take advantage of when he won initiative.  I would have traded a SIE for that Shootist simply because it would have dropped the bodyguard to allow my other flankers in to worry your assault & heavies.  In big fights you are going to lose something, the point is to make the trade worthwhile for you- its always great when a pawn takes out the queen.

This is what I was expecting to happen, but my opponent reasoned it out like this;  if he ran in and generated a 4+ modifier then he'd probably need sevens or eights to hit me whilst my Shootist would also probably need sevens or eights to hit him back.  A single 20 point hit can cause all sorts of problems to a Solitaire - it'll destroy whatever location it hits and I think even a hit on the arm will go internal on the adjacent torso whereas by contrast, a Shootist has enough armour to eat a large heavy laser hit anywhere except the head and unless you land all your shoots in the same location it will probably survive some medium heavy laser hits too.  His conclusion was that he'd probably loose the Solitaire without killing (or even breaching the armour of) the Shootist in return.

Now obviously I'm not in the habit of correcting my opponent when he's in the middle of making a mistake, so I didn't suggest to him that he send both Solitaires in after the Shootist, but too be fair to him my Lightray had already taken some big chunks out of one of them before they were in a position to make a run on my fire base.  We were playing on 3x3 mapsheets so the initial clash between out light forces took place relatively distant from both of our main forces.

For the record, I ran:

King Crab 001 (3/4)
Toyama 1A (3/4)
Shootist 8A (2/5)
Lightray 4Y (2/4)
Initiate 02 (3/5)
Mercury 99 (3/2)

3 Turhans (4/6)
3 Level Is of Achileus battle armour

The Mercury was there to chase off Fire Moths, which I guessed I'd be facing, and the Lightray was chosen with the expectation of facing Vipers or Bear Cubs or the like.  I wasn't specifically expecting Solitaires, but it did a good job against them anyway.  Likewise, the Shootist was given a ton of precision munitions to scare away fast movers - although I also expected to need it's firepower to handle the inevitable Kodiak (my opponent loves him some Kodiak).

He ran:

Kodiak 5 (3/4)
Arcas 1 (3/4)
Ursus 1 (3/4)
Solitaire 1 (3/4)
Solitaire 1 (3/4)
Fire Moth A (4/4)
Fire Moth A (4/4)

2 points of Rogue Bear battle armour.

[Colt Ward]

What I am wondering is since the AC/20 is in the LT, all he had to do to be protected against it was to be behind you and if he had to choose a side, it would be a toss up b/c MPL vs ERLL.

But you did a good job anticipating.

[Getz]

What I am wondering is since the AC/20 is in the LT, all he had to do to be protected against it was to be behind you and if he had to choose a side, it would be a toss up b/c MPL vs ERLL.

But you did a good job anticipating.

According the TRO 3058u the AC20 is in the left arm and that's where I got my record sheet from.

[Colt Ward]

I will have to dig up my plain 3058 to see, but HMP and MM both have it in the torso- which matches the art.  Even if it is completely in that arm, they still should be able to be 5 hexes back and 1 to the right from directly behind (5 row for scatter) which means they face the ERLL but not the AC/20.

[Tymers Realm]

I just brought up the Shootist 8A up in SSW. it has the AC/20 in the Lt Arm.

And here's the confusion. From the notes section on Sarna's page on the Shootist:

Originally, in The Black Thorns, Technical Readout: 3058, Record Sheets: 3055 & 3058, and later in Record Sheets: 3058 Upgrades; the ST-8A Shootist's primary weapons were in different locations. The AC/20 was in the left torso (with ammo and CASE in the right torso), the ER Large Laser was in the right arm, and a Medium Pulse Laser was in the left arm. The locations of the Small Laser and second Medium Pulse Laser remain the same. In Technical Readout: 3058 Upgrade, Record Sheets: 3058 Upgrade Print Edition, and Record Sheets: 3058 Unabridged (Clan & Star League) the weapons locations were corrected to match the artwork.

[Getz]

I will have to dig up my plain 3058 to see, but HMP and MM both have it in the torso- which matches the art.  Even if it is completely in that arm, they still should be able to be 5 hexes back and 1 to the right from directly behind (5 row for scatter) which means they face the ERLL but not the AC/20.

True, but the opportunity didn't come up for him.  He got to take one shot at the Shootist's rear armour from medium range and missed.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, like I said you did a good job with your skirmishers to keep the stabbers away.

[mbear]

I tweaked the loadout on one a while back....stripped out the weapons and dropped in a ERPPC.  Kept it at range with a decent pilot and was backstabbing at range.  Devastating to say the least.

So you converted a Solitaire into a Pack Hunter? I'm not surprised it did well, the PH is a good machine.

[TigerShark]

I just brought up the Shootist 8A up in SSW. it has the AC/20 in the Lt Arm.

And here's the confusion. From the notes section on Sarna's page on the Shootist:

Sarna isn't canon. It's a Wiki which can be edited by any person. The record sheet and the TRO both say Left Arm.

[packhntr]

So you converted a Solitaire into a Pack Hunter? I'm not surprised it did well, the PH is a good machine.

Basically...just a bit faster but without jump.  Didn't like the horrible heat load of the original.  Also swapped the heavy small for an ER.  Less punch, but  when I had the heavy, it never got used.  The er rarely got used as it is....

[lucho]

Like a lot of Clan lights, the Solitaire is a real "death or glory" type.  When they work, they're murderous.  When they don't work, you're usually getting the pilot out of the cockpit with a hose and a Squeegee.  Bring a good gunner and wait for someone to do something stupid, then knife them in the back.

This. The Solitaire is one of the better examples of the Clan fighting style: all or nothing

[Colt Ward]

Sarna isn't canon. It's a Wiki which can be edited by any person. The record sheet and the TRO both say Left Arm.

So if you had read what was being cited instead of jumping on the poster you would have seen that it was a explanation of the different sheets & locations spread through different CANON sources.  And as what STARTED the discussion said, some official sources had the AC/20 listed as in the torso while the OP had it in the arm.

[JadeHellbringer]

Sometimes artwork and stats don't end up meshing as well as we'd like- in which case the record sheet always takes precedence over the art. (The Kalki is a good example of this)

The art for the Shootist is pretty clearly a torso-mounted AC, and that's fine- but some sheets DO show an arm-mounted AC (though I think it might have been split between arm and body, if memory serves? It's been a long time since I used a Shootist). Whether intended or not, unless there's errata showing a change the arm-cannon Shootists are canon over what the artwork shows.

In the even there's NOT errata and you want to ask about it, there's avenues here on the forums to do exactly that. Otherwise I'd suggest that at this point the Shootist discussion be moved elsewhere (at the very least to their own thread).  C:-)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I love the Solitaire.  Unusual for a Clan machine, it really works best as a team player, though.  Unsupported, it's pretty easy to take down, but if you team it up with some big mechs then send it to flank it makes life really difficult for your opponent.