Author Topic: Some concerns about strategic turns in Campaign Operations - Long thread  (Read 739 times)

Mostro Joe

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Some of the elements in Combat Operations seem not playtested, and it is strange because a lot of them (almost all) are from the book "Combat Operations" published more than 20 years ago.

In the actual book "Campaign Operations", the chapter "linked scenarios" says that during a strategic turn every unit must have an order, and only one. This order can be a combat order or a non-combat order. Thats' clear.

The combat orders are clear too, but they seem to properly work without a map. If I give the combat order to "fight", for an exemple, is clear that my unit is searching for a fight and it will encounter a unit of the other player. But if I use a map, how can a unit with a "fight" order search the enemy? At what distance can effectively engage an enemy? And who chooses the enemy unit that will fight with mine?
And the same can be said for the "Scout" order.

So these actions seem valid only if you don't use a map.
That way, when the two players reveal the orders given to each unit, they match the units that have to fight. But here there is another problem. If I have two campanies, and the other player has two companies, and there is a "fight" order for everyone, who decides what units fight wich? It seems it must be agreed by players, because the rules at pag.135 do not say it.
The same would happen if I have two companies (one assault and one light for an exemple) with a "fight" order, and the other player has two companies (one heavy and one light, for an exemple) both with a "defend" order. Who decides the matches? I can say that my assault lance will attack the light lance of the adversary, but this one can object that he wants to meet my assault lance with his other lance, the heavy one, and that he wants the light lances to meet each other instead.
Again, players can agree on a solution, but it seems the matter is left to them and can be a source of arguments between the two. There are no rules about it.

Anyway, aside this matter, fight and scout orders seem clear. But again, they do not work with a map because there is not a rule for an engagement range of the units (but more on that in a few moments).

Defend orders are clear. 

And let’s get to the non-combat orders. Here they have four kind of orders: Move, Repair, Rest and Supply.

The first one, Move, is useful only if you have a map, as the text says, but it says too that when a unit is given such an order it will move at “twice its normal movement rate, but is not ready to fight”.
That implies that when you use any another order you can move at normal rate? It is not clear, even if at pag.135 the section “Actions” talks about a "strategic move", equivalent to the slowest unit walk/cruise MP multipied for 10.8 (?) and then multiplied for every hour of movement. But it is not said that this movement can be used in conjunction with other orders. We can just assume.

So a unit that is given a fight order, that has the slowest mech in the unit with a walking score of 4, can perhaps go to a speed of 43.2 Km/h and so, during a default strategic turn of 24 hours, it can cover 1.036.8 Kilometers? That is, when you multiply the MPs for 10.8 and have a result the rules say “multiply this by the number of hours in the strategic turn”, but it seems strange to me that a movement can go on for 24 hours. It seems more logical that a march can go on for 8-10 hourse and, in the above exemple, the unit could cover 345.6 Kilometers before having a fight.
Again, the rules do not say that we have just to assume.

Anyway, this can give some sense to the non-combat order of “move”, given it’s described as a “double strategic movement that does not permit to fight”. But is a guess again.

And that’s not enough, because in pag.152 of the “map-based campaigns” it is written that a “move” order “allows the units in a formation to move at a rate of 1 x the Formation’s Strategic Move Rate (see sidebar on pag.153)”. Now it is no more a double movement but it is the only movement available! Another iteration of the same rule! It’s so messy…
And on pag.153 the strategic turn has no more the odd 10.8 multplier for the walk MPs, but a table just says that a move on a planetary map has a rate 2, and on a sub-planetary rate is 1. But refers too to the “Battleforce” or “Strategic battleforce” rules for a more detailed rate… that must divided by 3 if a sub-planetary map is used... an headhace is mandatory here.

The funny thing is that on pag.152 it is said that a battle is fought if there are formations with an attack order. But the following page says instead that a battle ensues if two formations, moving on the map, reach the same space and encounter each other.

I think that in 20 years there’s been zero proof-reading on these texts. And zero playtest of the effective mechanisms.

Now, the “repair” order. It is said that this permits to repair units “according to the STANDARD repair and salvage rules (see pag.188) as the time allocated to the strategic turn allows”. BUT! Those standard rules says that a mant/rep cycle happens automatically every day and lasts for 8 hours! So why an order for that?!
I mean, if the mant/rep cycle happens anyway, why I should issue a strategic order for that?

And why for an exemple, I cannot repair my units if I give a “rest” strategic order? Aside the fact that, if the strategic order has a duration of one day (or even more), my units should anyway have an automatic mant/rep cycle every day, while the unit rests. But again, why then the presence of the strategic “repair” order?

Finally the supply order, something I talked about in another post that has been moved in the rules question space and has not received any answer.
The supply order is about the “repairing or customization formations (see obtaining replacements parts pag.200)” and as the word says permits me to search for replacement parts. BUT! Pag.200 says that the check for replacement parts is an integral part of the repairing action: “when permorming repairs, players have to check to see if replacement parts are available before they can be installed”. So, if the search for replacement parts is integral to the mant/rep cycle, why again there is a strategic order just for that? And why the search for replacement parts cannot be a part of the actions that take place during a “repair” strategic order? Why there are two different strategic orders?

One last thing: the strategic move, or the “move” non-combat order, have a sense if I use a big map. Indeed, if I use a sub-planetary map, pag.146 says that a standard Battletech map can be used, and that each hex represents a single Total warfare scale game area.
Given that each Battletech map represents about 400 meters, it is clear that a unit that can go for, let’s say, 300 Kilometers in a strategic turn, can cover each angle of the sub-planetary-map in a single turn. So there’s no need to have a movement value at all: every “move” order should permit to such a unit to “jump” in every hex it wants.

PLEASE, do not begin to make a list of your house rules to resolve this mess, because this post would be moved in the “Fan rules” section. I have some of the mine yet, even if I don’t think it’s correct to impose players to study house rules to fix things when they buy an official rulebook.

I don’t want to see the thread moved there, I would like to discuss it here instead expecially with some author, playtester or rules expert.

drjones

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The combat orders are clear too, but they seem to properly work without a map. If I give the combat order to "fight", for an exemple, is clear that my unit is searching for a fight and it will encounter a unit of the other player. But if I use a map, how can a unit with a "fight" order search the enemy? At what distance can effectively engage an enemy? And who chooses the enemy unit that will fight with mine?

I believe that using a map would involve the BattleForce rules at one of their levels of abstraction. One thing I miss from the original BattleForce is the ability to move at a higher level of abstraction and then "zoom in" for the actual combat. It had rules for moving battle groups (formations where the building blocks were lances) around and then resolving encounters at its normal rules level, where each unit on the board was a lance. The rules also included handling some campaign aspects with simple salvage and repair rules plus victory conditions. I'd like to see that overall approach taken further with rules for moving lance-sized formations around and then resolving encounters using Total Warfare.

Quote
That way, when the two players reveal the orders given to each unit, they match the units that have to fight. But here there is another problem. If I have two campanies, and the other player has two companies, and there is a "fight" order for everyone, who decides what units fight wich? It seems it must be agreed by players, because the rules at pag.135 do not say it.
The same would happen if I have two companies (one assault and one light for an exemple) with a "fight" order, and the other player has two companies (one heavy and one light, for an exemple) both with a "defend" order. Who decides the matches? I can say that my assault lance will attack the light lance of the adversary, but this one can object that he wants to meet my assault lance with his other lance, the heavy one, and that he wants the light lances to meet each other instead.
Again, players can agree on a solution, but it seems the matter is left to them and can be a source of arguments between the two. There are no rules about it.

That is unclear to me as well. I don't know if you'd consider it a house rule, but we've randomly picked which forces faced each other in those cases.

Mostro Joe

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we've randomly picked which forces faced each other in those cases.

As the rules are presented, it seems the only fair solution. But removes any real tactical decision.

Lanceman

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I believe that using a map would involve the BattleForce rules at one of their levels of abstraction. One thing I miss from the original BattleForce is the ability to move at a higher level of abstraction and then "zoom in" for the actual combat. It had rules for moving battle groups (formations where the building blocks were lances) around and then resolving encounters at its normal rules level, where each unit on the board was a lance. The rules also included handling some campaign aspects with simple salvage and repair rules plus victory conditions. I'd like to see that overall approach taken further with rules for moving lance-sized formations around and then resolving encounters using Total Warfare.

There's nothing stopping you from doing this now, in fact it might be a little easier. From Alpha Strike up to the Abstract Combat System, all units are built from the same core stats, just grouped and abstracted at different levels. So you could do an ACS turn, but then do several Alpha Strike matches to determine the winner of combat, and any unit loses would ripple up the formations. It'd be a lot of paperwork, but entirely doable.
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JesseHudson

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Replying to follow this thread.

Mostro Joe

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I follow too  :cheesy:

drjones

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And why for an exemple, I cannot repair my units if I give a “rest” strategic order? Aside the fact that, if the strategic order has a duration of one day (or even more), my units should anyway have an automatic mant/rep cycle every day, while the unit rests. But again, why then the presence of the strategic “repair” order?

My guess would be that the "rest" order also includes providing a rest period for the technicians and associated staff. Running a campaign using the linked scenarios rules suggests that the technical staff gets busy pretty fast...

drjones

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There's nothing stopping you from doing this now, in fact it might be a little easier. From Alpha Strike up to the Abstract Combat System, all units are built from the same core stats, just grouped and abstracted at different levels. So you could do an ACS turn, but then do several Alpha Strike matches to determine the winner of combat, and any unit loses would ripple up the formations. It'd be a lot of paperwork, but entirely doable.

Agreed, it is doable and supported by the rules, especially at the higher levels of abstraction. However, at the lower levels of abstraction the rules seem better suited to producing standalone battles than to "zooming in" on a particular action; it would be straightforward to take a lance from each side at the BattleForce level, convert their stats to individual units, and then run a Total Warfare battle. The complexity seems to come when trying to focus on those two lances in the middle of a more abstract engagement, as the levels of abstraction overlap; those two lances could be several hexes apart at the BF level and thus there is more potential for interference from other lances. The old BF rules seemed to keep the abstraction a bit cleaner by scaling the strategic map so that opposing forces had to be in the same space ("sector") to encounter each other.

SCC

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It assumes no map, abstract time keeping, and that like half your Lances are down for repair on any given day. Pretty sure it assumes like company sized forces as well.

Mostro Joe

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My guess would be that the "rest" order also includes providing a rest period for the technicians and associated staff. Running a campaign using the linked scenarios rules suggests that the technical staff gets busy pretty fast...

Not precisely. The rules are contradictory even there. If you read pag.219 infact, rules say "If a company does not fight in a Morale/Fatigue cycle decrease its fatigue points by 1".
So. there is no need for a "rest" order, it is sufficient just not to fight!

And while not fighting, the mant/rep cycle can go on.