BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Sigma on 11 April 2011, 13:15:14
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So the Super HPG's detailed in JHS 3076 are a next step HPG leading up to a device like Clarion Call with their enormous power causing spatial disruption, EMP blasts etc.
Now my thought was, what would you have to do to the readily available Jihad tech to make a Clarion Call System? Could it be done with a series of SHPG relays? Have each one located on the magic 30ly border systems and blast non-scheduled jump-traffic as you get EMW emanations from the opening spatial tear?
That way you don't need some kind of protective gear on friendly traffic or crazy super energy bubble that encompases that entire region of space.
Then you could also have the Blackout wrecked stuff caused by direct fire of the SHPG's into the HPG cores of standard stations. I know there was also sabotage and viruses involved in some of the instances but going with the majority of the mysterious dead station stuff.
Thoughts? I haven't read Bonfire yet so if I'm treading water here feel free to let me know.
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Clarion Call is no device; it's a protocol, i.e. something you do with a SHPG. And it was considered a WoMD by the WoB - about the only one even they didn't dare use. And then someone pushed the red button nonetheless, and somehow it was all Devlin Stone's plan...
At least hat's what Tucker Harwell believes as of 3143. We don't know exactly he came to his conclusions or if/how accurate they are, only that he found some data files about Clarion Note in a wrecked space installation in the Luyten system (one of ComStar's secret shipyards, located in Prefecture X, i.e. within 1 jump from Terra).
We're left in the dark how exactly it works, only that it somehow messes with the medium of hyperspace and caused (or contributed to) the HPG blackout, apparently with the capability to burn out HPG cores. We don't know if the hyperspace disruption that seals off Fortress Republic has anything to do with Clarion Note or SHPGs (although I admit is seems likely enough).
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WoB likely didn't use it because A they couldn't or B they were afraid of it getting stuck on and stranding all the planets back non hyperspace travel
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WoB likely didn't use it because A they couldn't or B they were afraid of it getting stuck on and stranding all the planets back non hyperspace travel
or C: They intended to keep that weapon in the dark for their successor, Devlin Stone.
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or C: They intended to keep that weapon in the dark for their successor, Devlin Stone.
Or D: Stone was the Wobbie that planed to use it all along
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Or E: Neko in a dress.
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Or D: Stone was the Wobbie that planed to use it all along
Same thing.
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Might be that the Clarion was set up to activate, but only under a certain preset command. Possibly a command code known only to the Master and possibly St. Jaimas and/or Apollyon. They lost control of Terra and Mars and never possibly had a chance to activate it before they were killed. The Republic would have had decades to find and discover how it works and what the command codes were or find the arming key.
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or C: They intended to keep that weapon in the dark for their successor, Devlin Stone.
A recent Battlecorps story (I can't find it now Argh!) kinda speaks against this theory. It involved a pair of people hunting WoB war criminlas after the Jihad. Had huge overtones of Europe after WWII. sm
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A recent Battlecorps story (I can't find it now Argh!) kinda speaks against this theory. It involved a pair of people hunting WoB war criminlas after the Jihad. Had huge overtones of Europe after WWII. sm
Remember what happened at the end of that story...
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Remember what happened at the end of that story...
I do. Clearly though my take on it is different than yours. sm
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Except no other explination makes sense. The morality of the Word of Blake was blackest in every sense of the word. Their leader, the Master, was publicly a psychopath whose only desire was to see the Inner Sphere burn, the Word of Blake unleashed bio-warfare agents, blasted entire planets for giggles, and lashed out at factions that had nothing to do with them. It just does not make sense that they were sitting on a superweapon, a superweapon that, for all intents and purposes, would fully and completely accomplish the Master's goal of making the Inner Sphere burn.
It gets even more suspicious when this superweapon is acquired by Devlin Stone and his lackeys without anyone ever knowing. If I was a Word of Blake agent and I knew Devlin Stone was coming to seize my faciton's superweapon, I would either fire it anyway ('We got nothing to lose') or blow it up to ensure that the enemy does not get its hands on it. Anyone who has worked in the military knows that this is standard operating procedure when dealing with highly classified technology.
There is no possible way that Devlin Stone getting the Super HPG and the Clarion Call fully intact was an accident. The Word of Blake had to have deliberately given it to him.
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Except no other explination makes sense. The morality of the Word of Blake was blackest in every sense of the word. Their leader, the Master, was publicly a psychopath whose only desire was to see the Inner Sphere burn, the Word of Blake unleashed bio-warfare agents, blasted entire planets for giggles, and lashed out at factions that had nothing to do with them. It just does not make sense that they were sitting on a superweapon, a superweapon that, for all intents and purposes, would fully and completely accomplish the Master's goal of making the Inner Sphere burn.
It gets even more suspicious when this superweapon is acquired by Devlin Stone and his lackeys without anyone ever knowing. If I was a Word of Blake agent and I knew Devlin Stone was coming to seize my faciton's superweapon, I would either fire it anyway ('We got nothing to lose') or blow it up to ensure that the enemy does not get its hands on it. Anyone who has worked in the military knows that this is standard operating procedure when dealing with highly classified technology.
There is no possible way that Devlin Stone getting the Super HPG and the Clarion Call fully intact was an accident. The Word of Blake had to have deliberately given it to him.
Unless they didn't know what they captured. Unlikely I admit but possible.
Stone also did have contingency plans for many disasters and Clarion Call might have been in one of the plans for the defense of the Republic. They info or the weapon itself may have then fallen into someone else hands.
Also WOB might have still believed they would win in the end and the weapon might be needed later. Our history is full of people who refused to believe they were losing even when the enemy as right at there door. True believers might very well have deceived themselves into believing that do matter what they would win in the end.
I have a real problem believing Stone as a super villain in hiding or a secret puppet of the Master. Now what I can believe is WOB or some other organization is trying to set him up. Remember it was also mentioned that HPGs were also taken out by sabotage and military strikes this mean Clarion Call was part of an organized strike to cripple the IS not just the Republic. A final strike by WOB in revenge for there lose makes a lot of sense to me.
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I do. Clearly though my take on it is different than yours. sm
potential spoilers in beigetext now: The RAF intelligence officer at the end was a blakist who whisked the war criminal off to safety. Given he was able to convincingly fake orders from Terra that suggests the Blakists have some level of influence in the Republic
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potential spoilers in beigetext now:
We have spoiler tags for just this sort of thing.
[spoiler] ... [/spoiler]
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I tried the spoiler tags and they didn't work in my preview post...
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Yeah, spoiler text doesn't work on the new boards.
Another question. Could the Clarion Call protocol have been developed after the Jihad and that's why the weapon was never used when the SHPG's were under WoB control?
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The text in Bonfire of Worlds doesn't state outright that it was developed before the Fall of Terra, but it strongly suggests it.
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Yeah, spoiler text doesn't work on the new boards.
Oh yeah, that's right. Forgot about that. Deathshadow needs to add those back in. Carry on!
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My personal best guess on Clarion, was that it was a failed scuttleing attempt that left it in the hands of the republic. Unless Devlin Stone is/was WoB of course, but that is one theory I do not subscribe to, my gut says it just doesn't feel quite right. I think that, if it was a WoB super weapon, and it got hit by the liberation forces before it could get used, the blakist forces would have tried to destroy it before it got captured. However, history is full of lucky breaks for attackers, when one side tried to destroy something, and for whatever reason it failed, leaving enough there to be captured and, at the very least, reverse engineered.
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potential spoilers in beigetext now: The RAF intelligence officer at the end was a blakist who whisked the war criminal off to safety. Given he was able to convincingly fake orders from Terra that suggests the Blakists have some level of influence in the Republic
In beige as well
The remains of the WoB having a level of influance in the RotS is something that has been known for some time know from the novel Blood Avatar. (Another parallel with Nazi Germany. Many Germans covered for war criminals after WWII.) But that does not mean the Stone was a WoB plant by any means. And the RotS is VERY worried about the WoB coming back. The last bit of Running Man shows it was a RotS agent, possiably a Ghost Knight that was giving information to the hunters and was quite angry that the target got away. Also we don't actually know that Stone or anyone who is loyal to RotS set off the Clarion Call, only that Tucker thinks that. In fact, if the RotS had set it off why where they caught so flat footed? To set off the Call all you may need is a HPG and the proper protocalls. sm
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Clarion Note was found in a wrecked SHPG, along with Wobblie corpses abound. Tuckers find, was a study done under Devlin Stone, which word for word matched a portion of the Clarion Note. He then data mined his way through the intelligence files with Alexi's password, and came up with an answer as to who and why. It could be the raving thoughts of a lunatic, but even with all of the brain damage he was suffered, Tucker has never really been played as the lunatic, more as a person who used to have stability trying to find it in an instable environment. The fact that he vanished, too after finding out what happend, crazy people have issues staying hidden for too long.
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In beige as well
*snip* sm
Note that the color beige is not spoiler-preventing when quoted. :P
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In beige as well
The remains of the WoB having a level of influance in the RotS is something that has been known for some time know from the novel Blood Avatar. (Another parallel with Nazi Germany. Many Germans covered for war criminals after WWII.) But that does not mean the Stone was a WoB plant by any means. And the RotS is VERY worried about the WoB coming back. The last bit of Running Man shows it was a RotS agent, possiably a Ghost Knight that was giving information to the hunters and was quite angry that the target got away. Also we don't actually know that Stone or anyone who is loyal to RotS set off the Clarion Call, only that Tucker thinks that. In fact, if the RotS had set it off why where they caught so flat footed? To set off the Call all you may need is a HPG and the proper protocalls. sm
more beige! Yeah, I'd agree with that as an analysis (though I've only read the first 4 or so DA novels and Bonfire of Worlds, so I can't speak to the events of them. I think the question is whether the RAF/WoB agent in Running Man represented a small group of well-placed former WoBbies/sympathisers, or a larger group - and whether the Agent/Ghost Knight was acting on orders from Stone/high command or on her own initiative. It's also possible that the Blakists infiltrated the Republic wthout Stone being an agent of theirs
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Not sure I'd read a lot into the Blood Avatar symbols implying the Word having direct influence with the Republic until there's a lot more info. It's incredibly vague on what it means, and sure comes off like a red herring. That's not to say I don't think there's some influence. I certainly do. Just not at all because of Blood Avatar. :)
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I personally think its unlikely that it was the Republic that triggered Clarion Call, for the simple reason that they did a great deal
more damage to themselves than anyone else. Maybe if the Republic had some way to maintain their borders at what they were
before the Blackout, then I could buy it. But Levin felt it was necessary to enact the Fortress Protocol that effectively sacrificed
a great deal of the Republic in save a part of it.
We know from Bonfire of Worlds that there still are Blakist elements and they are trying desperately to get the HPG working again.
I think to appear as the saviours of the Inner Sphere and conveniently bring the Word of Blake back as a viable group. And that they
had no actual idea on how to fix the HPG leads me to think its an as yet unnamed third party.
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We have spoiler tags for just this sort of thing.
[spoiler] ... [/spoiler]
Are those working now? They weren't working earlier, after the board reset.
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What's the name of that BC story?
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I personally think its unlikely that it was the Republic that triggered Clarion Call, for the simple reason that they did a great deal
more damage to themselves than anyone else. Maybe if the Republic had some way to maintain their borders at what they were
before the Blackout, then I could buy it. But Levin felt it was necessary to enact the Fortress Protocol that effectively sacrificed
a great deal of the Republic in save a part of it.
Except the story is not over yet. The truth is that the Republic would have eventually collapsed on itself anyway, HPG network or not, when it inevitably faced its first crisis. According to the theory, Devlin Stone, whom is very much still alive, creates that crisis early (While he is still alive) and then micromanages the Republic's crisis from behind the scenes.
The Republic itself pulls back into a protective ball and builds up its military might under the Fortress shield (Remember, with the fiat shield there was no chance that the Republic would have been destroyed) while the rest of the Inner Sphere pummels itself to dust, with help from the Fidelis adding gasoline to the fires whenever they can, the Republic builds up an immense military from the massive 'Mech graveyards' on Terra (Checkhov's Gun).
When they feel ready that they can take on their neighbors, with their neighbors worn out from beating eachother up for X number of years, the Republic turns off the Fiat shield (and the Clarion note) and launches an all-out attack in all directions. It basically becomes the Word of Blake Jihad all over again, except this time the Word wins.
Is anybody forgetting the ending of 'Surrender your Dreams'?
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What's the name of that BC story?
The Running man, uploaded on the 19th of March
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Is anybody forgetting the ending of 'Surrender your Dreams'?
No, I'm not. It wasn't actually specified as a Republic flag flying on the planet. That makes it a bit more interesting.
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No, I'm not. It wasn't actually specified as a Republic flag flying on the planet. That makes it a bit more interesting.
Good point. It was stated it was a new flag not seen twenty years before. If the RotS had taken over it would have been their flag up there. Maybe a new flag for a new FWL? sm
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Yes... They do mention a new flag, one which hasn't been seen before.
But they also mention that one of the main character's sons would have made a great
Knight or even Paladin.
Which makes it sound that those positions are now defunct.
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Yes... They do mention a new flag, one which hasn't been seen before.
But they also mention that one of the main character's sons would have made a great
Knight or even Paladin.
Which makes it sound that those positions are now defunct.
Yeah. I always got the feeling that the current Axarch(sp) was doing a huge reshuffiling of how the RotS was organized while the Wall was up. Which is really not a new thing. The US Constitution was created years after the country got free of the British Empire. The Articles of Confederation the US originally ran under where a huge mess. Kinda like how the RotS was before the Black Out. sm
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Possibly with the Senate dissolved the entire Knights Errant/Knights/Paladins had no counterbalance and there was a restructuring of the old power structure. Possibly something that bears more of a resemblance to what one of the other Successor States uses.
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I like to think they took the time to become a full on space democracy, but I'm a starry eyed idealist.
Wait. No I'm not. :-\
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Possibly with the Senate dissolved the entire Knights Errant/Knights/Paladins had no counterbalance and there was a restructuring of the old power structure. Possibly something that bears more of a resemblance to what one of the other Successor States uses.
Assuming nobody overthrew the Exarch and dismantled the Republic.
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Assuming nobody overthrew the Exarch and dismantled the Republic.
Considering that the (former) Exarch was still alive and clearly highly respected I rather doubt it. sm
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Clan Wolf moved to the Free Worlds League for a reason that I still cannot discern. Clan Jade Falcon worships a blatantly insane anime villain. The Lyran Commonalliance loves the idea of having Clans on both borders. Sexual abuse and incest are the new "it" things for rulers to have as traits. Devlin Stone is Devlin Stone.
I'd say all bets are off on assumptions of Dark Age personalities and their behavior.
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[stupid]
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Clan Wolf moved to the Free Worlds League for a reason that I still cannot discern.
They actually moved to the Steiner side of the Steiner-FWL boarder, the Steiner Archon thought that she could use the Wolves in her ambitions to annex the Free Worlds League. Somewhere along the way both sides turned on eachother, and the Wolves managed to annex a good chunk of the Lyran gains in the FWL.
The reasons for this? Well, their original position in the Inner Sphere was lousy. Their worlds were, if Touring the Stars is accurate, economically worthless crapholes. They were surrounded by hostile clans, so expanding is out of the picture for them, and the Steiner Archon was offering free passage.
Out of all the things in the Dark Ages, that is actually one of the few things that -do- make sense.
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They actually moved to the Steiner side of the Steiner-FWL boarder, the Steiner Archon thought that she could use the Wolves in her ambitions to annex the Free Worlds League. Somewhere along the way both sides turned on eachother, and the Wolves managed to annex a good chunk of the Lyran gains in the FWL.
The reasons for this? Well, their original position in the Inner Sphere was lousy. Their worlds were, if Touring the Stars is accurate, economically worthless crapholes. They were surrounded by hostile clans, so expanding is out of the picture for them, and the Steiner Archon was offering free passage.
Out of all the things in the Dark Ages, that is actually one of the few things that -do- make sense.
You see the seeds of it as early as the mid 3070s. The Wolves' general crap attitude towards logistics is mentioned in several of the 'Mech writeups in TROs 3075 and 3085. And I'm sure the scouring of Tamar and the cutoff from the homeworlds didn't help things at all.
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They actually moved to the Steiner side of the Steiner-FWL boarder, the Steiner Archon thought that she could use the Wolves in her ambitions to annex the Free Worlds League.
No, she wanted to prevent the FWL from reforming and being a threat to the LC. Of course her actions CAUSED the FWL to start reforming. It was a HUGE screw up on her part and she later admited she should have listened to those around her not to take the action. But her intensions where not to increses her own power/territory. sm
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No, she wanted to prevent the FWL from reforming and being a threat to the LC. Of course her actions CAUSED the FWL to start reforming. It was a HUGE screw up on her part and she later admited she should have listened to those around her not to take the action. But her intensions where not to increses her own power/territory. sm
No matter what she intended in her invasion of the Free Worlds League, her actions made it abundantly clear that she wanted to grab as much land from the Free Worlds League as possible.
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How many worlds did the Lyrans grab from the Leaguers in the invasion?
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A lot. Check the maps from the MWDA books on Oystein's site...
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A lot. Check the maps from the MWDA books on Oystein's site...
However, the Archon lost all of her gains and then some when the Wolf-Steiner relationship went sour, now the Wolves hold all that territory.
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I'm not sure if the Lyrans wouldhave lost all their gains - they took a large chunk of Tamarind-Abbey, and from the text of Bonfire of Worlds I got the impression the Wolf Empire was a bit more central. That said, I'm sure any gains left over from FWL territory have been made up for in Lyran worlds lost to the Wolves
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No matter what she intended in her invasion of the Free Worlds League, her actions made it abundantly clear that she wanted to grab as much land from the Free Worlds League as possible.
Thats was the measn to the end. Not a goal unto itself. sm
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No matter what she intended in her invasion of the Free Worlds League, her actions made it abundantly clear that she wanted to grab as much land from the Free Worlds League as possible.
That's not what I read in the novels. Are you sure we're reading the same books? They didn't want to take as many worlds as possible. Maybe the guys in charge of the invasion did (Ahem... Duke Whassisname...) but that wasn't how it was supposed to play out.
As for the Wolves, I'm only current up to To Ride the Chimera, so I don't understand how relations went sour. The helped take worlds for the Lyrans, and they kept what they killed, essentially. They said as much during the negotiations.
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That's not what I read in the novels. Are you sure we're reading the same books? They didn't want to take as many worlds as possible. Maybe the guys in charge of the invasion did (Ahem... Duke Whassisname...) but that wasn't how it was supposed to play out.
Except that is exactly how it played out.
I happen to subscribe to the beleif that a Faction's actions speak louder than their words, and their actions were to annex as many worlds as possible until the Free Worlds League could repel them. Regardless of what the statemen say in public, and even private, when they are annexing large tracts of territory, they are grabbing land.
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I'm not sure if the Lyrans wouldhave lost all their gains - they took a large chunk of Tamarind-Abbey, and from the text of Bonfire of Worlds I got the impression the Wolf Empire was a bit more central. That said, I'm sure any gains left over from FWL territory have been made up for in Lyran worlds lost to the Wolves
The thing is, can the Lyrans hold it? I would imagine the FWL would keep the borders of the Wolf empire in mind and use this as an opportunity to push back the Lyrans. The Lyrans seem to be busy working up defenses against the Falcons and the Wolves.
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Yeah, that reamains to be seen. That said, I wonder if the FWL has the willpower or the firepower to go after their lost worlds.
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Yeah, that reamains to be seen. That said, I wonder if the FWL has the willpower or the firepower to go after their lost worlds.
Very likely. Tamarind-Abbey would definatly want their worlds back, and it is likely the Lyrans have likely stripped the border to fight against the Falcons and Wolves, and Jessica Marik's Free Worlds League is still young and fragile, they need as many military victories as they can get.
The only damper on that is Regulus. Cameron-Jones is pissed, and he is likely going to do everything in his power to destroy the new Free Worlds League, and thus Jessica Marik has to delicately balance her forces to attack the Lyrans while withstanding any attack from Cameron-Jones.
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The thing is, can the Lyrans hold it? I would imagine the FWL would keep the borders of the Wolf empire in mind and use this as an opportunity to push back the Lyrans. The Lyrans seem to be busy working up defenses against the Falcons and the Wolves.
Well, the 3144 map at the end of A Bonfire of Worlds (at least the Kindle version) kind of gives some hints as to what happens...
Ruger
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I only have the BC version of Bonfire =\