Author Topic: LAM Dropship Bays?  (Read 5812 times)

ParsonBoyles

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LAM Dropship Bays?
« on: 15 May 2020, 17:10:42 »
Hi!

I'm a huge fan of LAMs, and I'm trying to pick or design a dropship to carry my force.

My question is about the transport bay. It seems to reason that they would be able to use either a fighter door or a mech bay door. They could fly off in orbit and walk on from the ground. (Or vice versa.)

From what I've been able to tell, the current rules say you'd have to set aside two transportation bays in order to give a LAM the options, which means one would always be empty. Are there any official rules about giving a LAM bay both a mech door and a fighter door?

I'm new to these forums (HI!) so if there's a better place to post this question, please let me know. :)

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2020, 17:23:02 »
There's no reason at all to leave a bay empty... you just don't enter that bay when it's full.  You should be able to move the LAM between the two bays internally.

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2020, 17:56:24 »
and a door is a door. there is no functional difference in the rules between a door on a bay holding mechbays, and a door on one holding fighter bays. what makes a bay door a fighter door is the fighter bays inside, and what makes one a mech door is being to a bay with mechbays inside.

since LAM's can use either a fighter or mech bay, depending on mode, it can thus use either type of door as well. you don't need extra doors for LAM's. or to leave bays empty.

(i think some of the confusion is the fact that we refer to compartments on a dropship or warship as "bays" but we also refer to the storage and repair cubicals for fighters, mechs,and vehicles as "bays" as well when you will usually see several such cubicals in each dropship compartment.)


If i was loading a Leopard i could fit 6 LAMs aboard.. 4 in the mech cubicals in mech mode and 2 in the fighter cubicals in fighter mode. i could launch all 6 using the 6 doors on the dropship.. 2 of which go to the bay with the fighter cubicles, 4 to the bay with the mech cubicals.

they'd launch in these modes but could immediately change modes to whatever they need.. the mech mode LAm's shifting to fighter mode in space or the fighter mode LAM's shifting to mech mode on a planet, etc.
likewise when they return to the dropship they'd board in much the same way.. 4 of them shifting to mech mode to go to the mech cubicals and 2 into fighter mode to land in the fighter cubicals.

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #3 on: 15 May 2020, 19:39:29 »
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #4 on: 16 May 2020, 13:33:03 »
Why on Earth would you need two bays? Just pick one. If you use a mech bay, you can still launch while in space, and transform right after. If you use a fighter bay while on the ground, just offload the same way fighters do, then transform and walk away.

Transport bays on DropShips are far too precious to leave half of them empty like that.
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ParsonBoyles

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #5 on: 19 May 2020, 15:18:01 »
Thanks for your replies, guys!

I guess I was asking to see if there was anything canon about LAM focused dropships. It seems to me that someone in the Inner Sphere would either build or retrofit a specialized dropship to fully take advantage of the tactical advantages of a LAM. I definitely would! :D

And I definitely wouldn't want to have two bays for each unit. If you play strictly by the established rules, it seems you gotta make some kind of compromise. Obviously, in the comfort of your own home game, you can do whatever you want.

Thanks again!

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #6 on: 19 May 2020, 15:22:37 »
Still confused. If a LAM can use either type of bay, what's the compromise? ???
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #7 on: 19 May 2020, 16:27:58 »
Weirdo's right... just use 'mech bays and call it good...

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2020, 01:40:32 »
I guess I was asking to see if there was anything canon about LAM focused dropships. It seems to me that someone in the Inner Sphere would either build or retrofit a specialized dropship to fully take advantage of the tactical advantages of a LAM. I definitely would! :D

Well, yeah.  It's called the SLDF, who would deploy unit models by the company.  However, over the 300 years of the Succession Wars, they would have been destroyed or converted to being Mech or ASF carriers as LAMs became as rare as hen's teeth.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #9 on: 20 May 2020, 01:44:28 »
Again, still confused. What on Earth would a DropShip need to be LAM-focused, that a normal mech or fighter-carrying DropShip doesn't already have? That's one of the big advantages of LAMs, their transport flexibility.
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Charistoph

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #10 on: 21 May 2020, 02:23:21 »
Again, still confused. What on Earth would a DropShip need to be LAM-focused, that a normal mech or fighter-carrying DropShip doesn't already have? That's one of the big advantages of LAMs, their transport flexibility.

You have it in your question.  Earth, and the Terran Hegemony at the core of the SLDF, was a political structure that threw money at problems.  Have this new weapon system to deploy, why not have a ship specifically designed to deploy it in its unusual way.  All it takes is greasing the right hands in Procurement, and you have the contract to build dropships that are specifically designed to launch LAMs in space or on land.

Does it make sense?  Not really.  But military-industrial complexes often do things which don't make sense.  Now I'm not saying there was one, just that the SLDF would have been the one to launch one if anyone would have.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #11 on: 21 May 2020, 09:00:35 »
Still not seeing the point.

A DropShip that can launch LAMs in space or on land is called a mech carrier. In both environments, you launch in mech mode. If you're in space or airborne, the LAMs immediately transform to fighters, and it has cost them nothing to do so.

A DropShip that carries 12 LAMs is called a Union that has simply painted "Land-Air Mechs Only" on the bay doors.

There is zero need for a dedicated LAM ship, and I'm still trying to figure out what such a superflous vessel's record sheet would look like.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #12 on: 21 May 2020, 13:55:06 »
The benefits to using an aerobay. You could launch in Space, Air, or on Land at ease. Using a mech bay to launch in space would be ok as long as you weren't under thrust and the mech bay has an airlock. In the air, well I see that as a few piloting rolls, lol.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #13 on: 21 May 2020, 15:28:05 »
The benefits to using an aerobay. You could launch in Space, Air, or on Land at ease. Using a mech bay to launch in space would be ok as long as you weren't under thrust and the mech bay has an airlock. In the air, well I see that as a few piloting rolls, lol.

How is it any different from any other deployment of a 'Mech out a 'Mech bay door in space for orbital dropping, or an atmospheric drop, other than not using a cocoon or jump pack?
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #14 on: 21 May 2020, 15:34:43 »
What he said. Mech bays already have all of that, otherwise the rules would have more than zero issues with launching mechs in space.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #15 on: 21 May 2020, 16:23:07 »
*snip*
A DropShip that carries 12 14 LAMs is called a Union that has simply painted "Land-Air Mechs Only" on the bay doors.
*snip*
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #16 on: 21 May 2020, 16:43:08 »
Well, yeah. I was focusing on the Mech bays, since I'm trying to illustrate that they already do everything the OP wants LAM bays to do.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #17 on: 21 May 2020, 16:46:05 »
Totally with you there... just wanted to make sure the ASF bays were acknowledged too...  :thumbsup:

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #18 on: 21 May 2020, 18:30:51 »
Y'now, I once considered a raiding unit or pirate band that operated off a Quetzalcoutl, using 12 LAMs, but couldn't quite figure out how to make the logistics work, ie. cargo, fuel, etc.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #19 on: 21 May 2020, 18:41:39 »
Hard, but doable I think.  Step one, of course, is redesigning the Q in accordance with modern rules...

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #20 on: 21 May 2020, 19:51:46 »
biggest issues with a Quetzalcoutl is that it is a standard core jumpship with no dropship collars. so it is only viable as a raider if you want to raid space stations or other jumpships that are at jumpoints.

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #21 on: 21 May 2020, 20:04:56 »
biggest issues with a Quetzalcoutl is that it is a standard core jumpship with no dropship collars. so it is only viable as a raider if you want to raid space stations or other jumpships that are at jumpoints.

Or you like pirate points.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #22 on: 22 May 2020, 14:30:11 »
Well, yeah. I was focusing on the Mech bays, since I'm trying to illustrate that they already do everything the OP wants LAM bays to do.

Except have the catapults for quick launch that ASFs require.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #23 on: 22 May 2020, 15:05:13 »
While a "dedicated" LAM carrier isn't an essential need, I would agree, one issue does come to mind where a ship designed for the particular talents of LAM operation could come in handy.
Someone posted above that the LAM could board the ship in mech form and somehow get into the fighter launch bay internally.. But, can they? Really? If you look at the layout of many dropships (purely based on location of launch bay doors since deck plans are very rare in Btech) I just dont see most ships having the internal room or layout for a mech to walk to the launch bays, which are usually not even in the same decks at the mech bays, have room to transform, and taxi into the fighter bay...
A ship designed for LAMs would have the proper space and layout to accommodate those specific actions, and efficiently as well; for faster combat operations and turnaround.
While not needed per se, a specialist LAM combat carrier dropship could be an interesting machine? And breath fresh life into a niche of the game sadly neglected.

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #24 on: 22 May 2020, 15:10:35 »
Except have the catapults for quick launch that ASFs require.

Incorrect, based on the fact that mechs and fighters launch at exactly the same speeds.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #25 on: 22 May 2020, 15:12:04 »
...the LAM could board the ship in mech form and somehow get into the fighter launch bay internally...

But why would you ever bother doing this, when the mech bay does literally everything the fighter bay does?
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Major Headcase

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #26 on: 22 May 2020, 15:22:41 »
But why would you ever bother doing this, when the mech bay does literally everything the fighter bay does?

Options. Why does a modern landing ship have helicopter pads on deck as well as an internal boat launch for the same soldiers? Options. You are approaching the planet with LAMS loaded as mechs for fast deploy on the ground; on approach the planet launches ASF your Intel didn't know they had. Instead of kicking you mechs out the bay doors unprepared, the mechs quickly move to the ASF bays, where fuel and external stores are added, and launched properly. All while keeping the mech bays prepped and ready for the return servicing. Also, recovering them on the ground is easier in mech form and the ability to store deploy them internally however the needs of battle dictate would be a huge time saver.
The reverse scenario is just as applicable.

Major Headcase

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #27 on: 22 May 2020, 15:53:35 »
Also I've been looking back at some of the fictional mentions of dropship/aerospace operations (since again, the operational details are limited) and in the books, ASF bays do use catapults. They punt the fighter out of the bay at a neutral speed to the dropship so the fighter can let off its Fusion torch engines OUTSIDE the enclosed bay. It doesn't shoot them out like a cannon ala Battlestar Galactica.. likewise the bay has recovery equipment to snag the Fighter's once they return and match speed and vector, which is why dropships have to stop accelerating and maneuvering to recover them (supposedly with a space shuttle style recovery arm maybe?) which leaves them deadly vulnerable in combat.
So, no, a Mech bay does NOT already do everything a ASF bay does...

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #28 on: 22 May 2020, 15:59:23 »
Also I've been looking back at some of the fictional mentions of dropship/aerospace operations (since again, the operational details are limited) and in the books, ASF bays do use catapults. They punt the fighter out of the bay at a neutral speed to the dropship so the fighter can let off its Fusion torch engines OUTSIDE the enclosed bay. It doesn't shoot them out like a cannon ala Battlestar Galactica.. likewise the bay has recovery equipment to snag the Fighter's once they return and match speed and vector, which is why dropships have to stop accelerating and maneuvering to recover them (supposedly with a space shuttle style recovery arm maybe?) which leaves them deadly vulnerable in combat.
So, no, a Mech bay does NOT already do everything a ASF bay does...
Depending on the pov, as Mechbays have gantires that grab onto Mechs and that can also shove them out of the dropship during combat drops.
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Major Headcase

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #29 on: 22 May 2020, 16:11:59 »
Depending on the pov, as Mechbays have gantires that grab onto Mechs and that can also shove them out of the dropship during combat drops.

Again, sources vary. I've read the books where the mechs with Jjets just step out of the open bay doors!  ;D and the mech bay gantry grabs the mech as a "seatbelt" function, holding securely in place, for the mech during maneuvering, it doesn't reach out of the dropship and grab the mech and bring it in.
But one way to look at it is that any and or all of these functions could be available? There are a lot of dropship designs, made and perfected over centuries, so different ships could operate in very different ways that all equate to the same outcome for game mechanics purposes, so the differences are cosmetic only? Who knows?? It's fun to speculate though.  :)

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #30 on: 22 May 2020, 16:42:45 »
Options. Why does a modern landing ship have helicopter pads on deck as well as an internal boat launch for the same soldiers?

This is a bad comparison, because unlike the mech bay/fighter bay comparison, helipads and well decks actually do different things.

Quote
You are approaching the planet with LAMS loaded as mechs for fast deploy on the ground; on approach the planet launches ASF your Intel didn't know they had. Instead of kicking you mechs out the bay doors unprepared, the mechs quickly move to the ASF bays, where fuel and external stores are added, and launched properly.

None of this is necessary because the mech bays have all the equipment needed to load all of that. What is needed is a commander competent enough to actually load his LAMs with fuel and ammo before going into battle.

Also I've been looking back at some of the fictional mentions of dropship/aerospace operations (since again, the operational details are limited) and in the books, ASF bays do use catapults. They punt the fighter out of the bay at a neutral speed to the dropship so the fighter can let off its Fusion torch engines OUTSIDE the enclosed bay. It doesn't shoot them out like a cannon ala Battlestar Galactica.. likewise the bay has recovery equipment to snag the Fighter's once they return and match speed and vector, which is why dropships have to stop accelerating and maneuvering to recover them (supposedly with a space shuttle style recovery arm maybe?) which leaves them deadly vulnerable in combat.
So, no, a Mech bay does NOT already do everything a ASF bay does...

They do, we know they do, because a mech launched from a DropShip had the exact same velocity as a fighter launched from a DropShip.

Let me say once again, since it keeps getting ignored: There is no rules difference between a LAM launched from a mech bay and and a LAM launched from a fighter bay. They have access to the same level of maintenance and arming facilities, they launch at the same rate, and once launched, they have the exact same velocity.
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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #31 on: 22 May 2020, 17:01:51 »
What Weirdo said... LAMs are the "easy button" of deployment/recovery...

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #32 on: 22 May 2020, 18:50:32 »
Incorrect, based on the fact that mechs and fighters launch at exactly the same speeds.

No, they don't.  ASF bays have catapults to launch fighters while on a planet's surface (and yes, this has happened the books, but noted as dangerous), and as Major Headcase stated, you need to clear the ASF's plume from the ship.  Mechs don't need to be going fast when they hit atmosphere, in fact, it's better if they don't.

A true LAM bay would be configured to either let the machine walk out in Mech mode or be launched in ASF form so it can reach flight speeds, quicker.  There's a reason why even Harriers use catapults at times, even though they don't actually NEED them.

Just because the difference in launch speeds is not notable in space, doesn't mean there isn't a noticeable different in other environs.  And if you stick to bays for only one form, you're hampering the effectiveness of the unit.

But as noted, the only reason to be having LAM bays at all is if you are deploying whole units of this type on a regular basis like the SLDF, and you have money to burn on the project.  In mixed units (like most of the BT-verse all over), they would use whatever bay they would normally deploy in.  As it is, LAMs usually should only be deployed in such units to take advantage of their strengths.  But unless you're dealing with a full company/squadron, they'll use what they can.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #33 on: 22 May 2020, 18:56:20 »
a mech bay would also have to have a catapult, in order to launch the drop pods containing mechs during an orbital drop. while in the pods they cannot move, and a crane would not be able to "throw" the pod far enough clear of the dropship to avoid the drive plume or to send the pods into the proper descent. it would not be hard to set this catapult up to throw mech or airmech mode LAM's.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #34 on: 22 May 2020, 20:12:19 »
OK, let's look at the rules on this:

Strategic Operations, page 24:
Quote
Ground units making space drops for zero-G operations use all the rules for exiting a carrying aerospace unit as given under Atmospheric Drops, p. 23. In addition, if a unit enters a space hex affected by gravity, whether directly from a carrying aerospace unit or due to its own movement (see High-Altitude Map, p. 75, TW), it must adhere to the effects of gravity as described under Space Drops for Orbital Insertion, above (at the end of the Movement Phase (Aerospace), all such ground units move toward the planet by 1 hex).

Fair enough.  Also on the same page, under Movement:

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Ground units that exit a carrying aerospace unit, or voluntarily move off an aerospace unit’s hull, have the same heading and velocity as the carrying unit. For example, if a ’Mech drops from a DropShip heading along Vector A at a Velocity of 10, the ’Mech also heads along Vector A at a Velocity of 10.

Cool.  Now, let's go back to page 22:

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A carrying aerospace unit can drop a number of units each turn equal to its operational door capacity (though if a door is damaged, either through a critical hit or through dropping a unit, no units can use that door for the remainder of the scenario). Doors noted as pure cargo bay doors, or fi ghter/Small Craft bay doors, cannot be used; the number of ’Mech/ProtoMech/vehicle bay doors a unit has will be noted in either the unit’s technical readout or record sheet game statistics. A carrying aerospace unit can drop any number of infantry units.

So, no, Major Headcase, your Union can't deploy 14 'Mechs, unless two of them are LAMs in fighter mode.  BattleMechs can't use fighter doors.  LAMs are a special exception, because they can turn themselves into aerospace fighters.

The rules on page 22, however, do note:

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Every time a non-infantry unit drops, roll 2D6. On a result of 2, though the unit successfully drops from the aerospace unit, the door is damaged and cannot be used for the rest of the scenario (it is considered to have been critically hit; see Critical Hit Effects, p. 239, TW).

Rules for deploying fighters are highly similar, with a couple of provisos.  To Total Warfare, page 86, we go:

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Fighters and small craft may launch from a carrier only at the end of that carrier’s movement. Two fighters or small craft can exit each fighter/small craft bay door each turn at no risk; the number of fighter/small craft bay doors on the Large Craft will be noted in either the unit’s technical readout or record sheet game stats.

Additional fighters/small craft may attempt to launch from the same bay door in a turn, but if they do, each unit (including the first two) must make a Control Roll with a +1 penalty per additional fighter/small craft launched beyond the first two.

If this roll succeeds, that fighter/small craft launches successfully, and occupies the same hex, with the same heading and velocity as the carrying unit; it may expend its standard Thrust MP in the same turn it launches and may make attacks during the Weapon Attack Phase of the same turn (this may require players to revisit the order
of movement determined by Initiative and Unequal Number of Units (see p. 39).

If it fails, the fighter/small craft still launches, but suffers 10 points of standard-scale damage to the nose (the specific location determined via a 2D6 roll on the Hit Location Table) per point of MoF.

All mentions of the word "catapult" in Total Warfare refer to the BattleMech.
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Bosefius

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Re: LAM Dropship Bays?
« Reply #35 on: 22 May 2020, 20:54:31 »
Congratulations, because we can't tell if people are being intentionally obtuse or are just being rude, we've locked the thread.
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