Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation  (Read 160142 times)

Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #960 on: 01 July 2019, 09:36:47 »
Found something interesting.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/ercoupe-was-airplane-anyone-can-fly-until-it-wasnt-180956769/

Yeah, it was a fairly stable airplane, but as with much in aviation there are always tradeoffs. This links to the AOPA article that describes several significant ones:

Quote
Which brings up the airplane’s safety record. There may be scant mention of stalls in the Ercoupe’s accident history, but there sure are a lot of steep descents to impact. Chop the power in an Ercoupe and you’ll see what I mean. As speed drops, so does the ship—alarmingly so when near the ground. So it may resist stalls, but it’s the king of level-attitude mushing at low power. The fact that Ercoupe manuals recommend an odd technique if you find yourself high on final and want to lose altitude should be a clue: “…The flight path may be steepened by rolling the airplane from side to side, dipping each wing 20 to 30 degrees. If the altitude is sufficiently high, this can be done satisfactorily with the wheel held full back and height is lost quite rapidly…” the Univair manual states. Yikes!

The airplane:
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #961 on: 01 July 2019, 10:06:19 »

Fun fact: 1969's Soccer War between El Salvador and Honduras was fought by both sides with American WWII aircraft types. The war was the last conflict in which piston-engined fighters fought each other. Honduran Air Force Captain Fernando Soto in an F4U-5NL Corsair downed a Salvadoran TF-51D Cavalier Mustang II and two FG-1D Goodyear Corsairs.


Here's his plane:


El Salvador continued to fly its surviving Corsairs into 1975; Honduras didn't retire its fleet until 1979.

I think it might be a interesting viability study to look at props as a defensive air fleet loaded with missiles.  Not sure the cost difference between prop and jet would offset the payload difference (number of AIM-120s frex) but keeping them NoE to fire 'up' at incoming jets might be a viable strategy . . . though expect to take losses to your props.  And I think your NoE would require some hill/mountain terrain, something to get lost in the clutter.  Also wonder if you could loft a bigger payload of missiles if they used JATO or similar for take off.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #962 on: 01 July 2019, 10:27:38 »
It's an idea that has been explored, but frankly even the likes of the T-X has serious compromises for air policing.

The biggest problem is that of speed. Unless it has the best possible approach, even a high subsonic light fighter could hardly even catch up to a Boeing 747 and can probably totally forget about a stern chase.... Never mind a turboprop.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #963 on: 01 July 2019, 10:31:55 »
Huh?  I am not talking about catching up, bluntly that is the missiles job.  More that the cheaper prop job carries more missiles aloft in the face of incoming and gets more missile throw weight as a defensive measure against fighters and fighter bombers.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #964 on: 01 July 2019, 11:42:58 »
I think it might be a interesting viability study to look at props as a defensive air fleet loaded with missiles.  Not sure the cost difference between prop and jet would offset the payload difference (number of AIM-120s frex) but keeping them NoE to fire 'up' at incoming jets might be a viable strategy . . . though expect to take losses to your props.  And I think your NoE would require some hill/mountain terrain, something to get lost in the clutter.  Also wonder if you could loft a bigger payload of missiles if they used JATO or similar for take off.

USAF has looked at variations of this concept a few times. I don't think I ever saw lofting the missiles on prop-jobs, but I am sure that if they trusted missiles enough in the 60s, they could have tried that too.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #965 on: 01 July 2019, 16:23:17 »
The USAF has also never seriously looked at attacks from Mexico or Canada... both valid assumptions.  Smaller countries have different calculus...

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #966 on: 01 July 2019, 18:44:57 »
From Mexico, no, but that's simply because that country entirely lacks any sort of combat capable air force.  80% of it is observation planes (Cessna, Pilatus, etc) with some decent recon aircraft for internal policing; the rest is some lift capability in the capital (ostensibly for VIPs) and transport helicopters.  Bazooka Charlie would be a legitimate ground-attack threat in that environment.  Their army on the other hand, that's a bit more of a threat at both a decent size and well-equipped even if it lacks heavy armor units.

From CANADA, well, we've had War Plan Red since the 1920s, and the military does come up with weird scenarios for both "just in case" situations as well as outside the box training, and breaking the 'but that can't happen' mindset.  And Canada, at least, has a decent tactically-capable air force compared to Mexico.

The Marines practice some weird ideas; a friend of mine in 3MAW mentioned his battalion doing an exercise where their base came under attack by ghosts. They had to figure out what was happening, how it was happening within the rules of the scenario, figure out what those rules were, and then handle the situation.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #967 on: 01 July 2019, 18:48:39 »
I would dare posit that an attack by ghosts is MORE likely than an attack by the folks we're sitting next to in NORAD...  ^-^

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #968 on: 01 July 2019, 19:00:08 »
Huh?  I am not talking about catching up, bluntly that is the missiles job.  More that the cheaper prop job carries more missiles aloft in the face of incoming and gets more missile throw weight as a defensive measure against fighters and fighter bombers.
2 things; missile kinematics and intercepts. Firstly, a prop job or subsonic fighter would get less range out of the missile.

Secondly, home defence requires aircraft which can make intercepts of potentially hostile/in trouble aircraft. That means, at least, the ability to overhaul a Boeing 747, and make a WVR assessment and/or close escort.

It's hard for even a high-subsonic light jet to do this, because the QRA or even airborne CAP fighter, may have to cover some distance quite fast in order to reach the aircraft, which may be travelling away from it.

For example, if a Boeing 747 behaves suspiciously, and an intercept is necessary to see if it's about to pull a Lockerbie, a turboprop can probably forget about it unless said 747 is moving directly towards it. Stern chase would be right out even for a high-subsonic light jet.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #969 on: 01 July 2019, 19:09:15 »
For example, if a Boeing 747 behaves suspiciously, and an intercept is necessary to see if it's about to pull a Lockerbie
Or if someone's being a complete ******* and running civilian transponders/IFF on a bomber for a sneak attack...
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dgorsman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #970 on: 01 July 2019, 19:33:54 »
Gotta watch out for those ghost Mounties.   :D   Aaaand now I'm in the mood to watch re-runs of Due South.

It's not a bad idea.  Helps keep people from settling into figuring out what scenario version this is and what the accepted responses are, instead of working on problem solving.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #971 on: 01 July 2019, 19:40:46 »
No sure that the future is a bunch of small piston or turbo-prop manned bomb/missile trucks to support the gold/silver bullets of F-22 and F-35.

However, the general idea has merit, if you are talking about a B-52, or a C-130 or a B-737 derivative bomb/missile truck that is datalinked and can add throw weight to the gold/silver bullets. These type of platforms will give you the throw-weight and the loiter time. However, a better option would be a large UAV like Global Hawk which would mean your loiter time is limited by fuel and maintenance requirements not by the zoombaggers filling the on-board toilets to capacity.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #972 on: 01 July 2019, 19:46:17 »
Supersonic UAV might be better - and I suspect, is what people are moving towards.

There's no reason why a post-legacy air force shouldn't consist of high-end fast jets and a wing or so of COIN turboprops.

It would mirror the direction the world's navies are going; high-end destroyers/frigates de facto cruisers for peer conflicts, and a bunch of OPVs with nowt but a 30mm gun for police work

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #973 on: 02 July 2019, 08:41:32 »
However, the general idea has merit, if you are talking about a B-52, or a C-130 or a B-737 derivative bomb/missile truck that is datalinked and can add throw weight to the gold/silver bullets. These type of platforms will give you the throw-weight and the loiter time. However, a better option would be a large UAV like Global Hawk which would mean your loiter time is limited by fuel and maintenance requirements not by the zoombaggers filling the on-board toilets to capacity.
They decided on using F-15s for it, apparently. The F-15X, in two variants, a single seat and a two seater version. Can carry up to 22 missiles via AMBER racks.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #974 on: 02 July 2019, 09:48:58 »
Actually they're only buying two seaters. The single seat Eagle has a different cockpit line (hence different aerodynamics). To avoid the time and expense of testing and certification of a single seater, the ones going to units operating C models will simply fly with empty back seats.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #975 on: 03 July 2019, 03:59:20 »
The B1-R is not going to happen. That was going to be a re-engined missile carrier version of the B-1. With a speed of over Mach 2 and carry 24 Amrams.
But if you can get a new F-15X that is still being built a lot cheaper and carry 22 missiles, think I know where that Idea will end up.

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #976 on: 03 July 2019, 05:41:25 »
Would have been the best named aircraft, too...
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #977 on: 03 July 2019, 12:02:19 »
The B1-R is not going to happen. That was going to be a re-engined missile carrier version of the B-1. With a speed of over Mach 2 and carry 24 Amrams.
But if you can get a new F-15X that is still being built a lot cheaper and carry 22 missiles, think I know where that Idea will end up.

such a shame, but still, only 24??? such a shame.  something that big ought to be able to loft a lot more dakka than that...you know, for Science.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #978 on: 03 July 2019, 13:13:55 »
Dakka?  Man I tell the toddler, its either pewpew, bangbang or whooshwhoosh . . . and 24 missiles would be whooshwhoosh!

My bet is its refitting the bomb bay not the lifting capacity.  Its part of why I heard they had problems with conventional bombs rather than nukes, its the design of the weapons bay.  I think it also lacks as many external hardpoints . . . now, it PROBABLY has greater range/endurance for those 24 missiles than the F-15 version, but even that might be up in the air.

I mean, I remember the Old Dog suggestions of B-52s mounting 120s to kiss fighters at long range . . .
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #979 on: 03 July 2019, 18:10:09 »

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #980 on: 03 July 2019, 21:15:45 »
you think they saw when the ground came up to hug them?
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #981 on: 06 July 2019, 03:37:10 »
Like the cover of some War Picture Library


ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #982 on: 06 July 2019, 04:55:21 »
Like the cover of some War Picture Library
Ah, the P-47 Thunderbrrt.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #983 on: 06 July 2019, 05:42:46 »
With tracers, no less!  8)

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #984 on: 06 July 2019, 08:02:58 »
You mean it didn't really have lazer deth rayz?  :(
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #985 on: 11 July 2019, 13:22:58 »
Skyworks Global and Scaled Composites will offer their VertiJet gyrodyne aircraft for the US Army's Future Vertical Lift competition.

The VertiJet is a runway-independent aircraft that can take off and land vertically and hover similar to a helicopter. VertiJet will incorporate technologies designed and developed by Skyworks in the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Heliplane programme to achieve an estimated top speed of 644 km/h and a range of 1,000 n miles with a maximum payload of 454 kg. Skyworks and Scaled Composites are targeting VertiJet's unit cost for the USD 6-8 million range.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #986 on: 11 July 2019, 13:38:22 »
Looks like a refinement of the Xwing program...
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #987 on: 11 July 2019, 14:45:51 »
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #988 on: 11 July 2019, 15:12:12 »
Skyworks Global and Scaled Composites will offer their VertiJet gyrodyne aircraft for the US Army's Future Vertical Lift competition.

The VertiJet is a runway-independent aircraft that can take off and land vertically and hover similar to a helicopter. VertiJet will incorporate technologies designed and developed by Skyworks in the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Heliplane programme to achieve an estimated top speed of 644 km/h and a range of 1,000 n miles with a maximum payload of 454 kg. Skyworks and Scaled Composites are targeting VertiJet's unit cost for the USD 6-8 million range.



Only 454kgs??? That's around 1000lbs. Less than a P-51 from WWII. What sort of role is envisioned for an aircraft with such a small payload? I'm assuming a typo there...

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #989 on: 11 July 2019, 15:34:26 »
Pilot, copilot, four defence consultants and their laptops ... seems about right ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

 

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