Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 146987 times)

grimlock1

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #360 on: 15 April 2019, 14:51:15 »
Idle question:  If you have CASE around all the explody bits, is there any reason to have auto-eject enabled?


The only thing I can think of is that if you auto eject on the first ammo explosion, if that explosion sets off other ammo bins, the pilot avoids multiple counts of feedback damage.  On the other hand, barring XXL or IS XL engines, you will be abandoning a serviceable mech.
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Apocal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #361 on: 15 April 2019, 15:03:11 »
Units can make sense in different ways.  Sometimes they started with some artwork, and tried to make the mech stats fit the picture.  That makes sense -- they weren't trying to make it super efficient, they were trying to match a picture.

Other times, mechs were supposed to demonstrate a new technology.  "Wouldn't it have been better to use something else here?"  But the purpose was to use the Light Gauss Rifle or something.  It makes sense, when you consider why they built it.

I don't disagree with this in general but neither of these apply to my example of the Hellbringer. FASA clearly didn't care all that much about matching configuration to the artwork when it came to the original sixteen omnis. The Summoner has two triple racks of some kind of missile (perhaps they were thinking of ATM-style "one-size, every range" for Clan launchers?). The original Stormcrow art showing a rack of missiles in the CT while the Stormcrow's Prime configuration has no missiles at all. The PPC arm of the Summoner is shared by the Timberwolf -- or the ERML/ERLL arm of the Timberwolf is shared by the Summoner. And so on.

As for demonstrating new tech, that goes further to explain things, but I don't know why the Clans were given A-pods when most of their serious fighting was done against BA-equipped forces. Outside the scope of the thread I suppose.

Anyway, just to reiterate, I don't disagree overall, I just think it doesn't explain the Hellbringer and especially not its variants.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #362 on: 15 April 2019, 15:09:04 »
Idle question:  If you have CASE around all the explody bits, is there any reason to have auto-eject enabled?


The only thing I can think of is that if you auto eject on the first ammo explosion, if that explosion sets off other ammo bins, the pilot avoids multiple counts of feedback damage.  On the other hand, barring XXL or IS XL engines, you will be abandoning a serviceable mech.

rules-wise, no. heck, i usually disable it on IS mechs with SFE or LFE and CASE.







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Apocal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #363 on: 15 April 2019, 15:10:15 »
I think the biggest :facepalm: in the Timby's original offerings was the 2 rear facing streak 6's on the D. That might have been FASA trying to be clever, or it might have been FASA nerfing it once they realized it would eat EVERYTHING in the IS alive.

It was already nerfed by having only fifteen heatsinks though. Paired with dual ERPPCs, if the two streaks actually hit, you went straight into hit penalty overheat, maybe more if you'd been running that turn. Now, that might be worth it, but in general, it was usually a one PPC machine. OK, so it's a big Nova, fair enough, I can dig it.

But why the three tons of Streak ammo? Eleven turns if you hit with every Streak, every turn. Probably more like 25-40 at usual hit rates and the dearth of rearward (or forward, due to range) firing opportunities.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #364 on: 15 April 2019, 15:13:58 »
three tons of streak ammo says "i'm having way too much fun out here and don't want to have to go home early"

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Sabelkatten

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #365 on: 15 April 2019, 15:14:41 »
Idle question:  If you have CASE around all the explody bits, is there any reason to have auto-eject enabled?


The only thing I can think of is that if you auto eject on the first ammo explosion, if that explosion sets off other ammo bins, the pilot avoids multiple counts of feedback damage.  On the other hand, barring XXL or IS XL engines, you will be abandoning a serviceable mech.
Depends on how much you want your pilots to survive, and on how interested the enemy is at shooting at ejected pilots. Suffering only a single ammo explosion is usually survivable, 2 ammo explosions is usually a dead pilot, 3+ is a guaranteed kill. So if you have a mech with a significant risk of multiple ammo explosions you'd better auto-eject or you'll probably need a new pilot after every hard battle.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #366 on: 15 April 2019, 16:02:53 »
It was already nerfed by having only fifteen heatsinks though. Paired with dual ERPPCs, if the two streaks actually hit, you went straight into hit penalty overheat, maybe more if you'd been running that turn. Now, that might be worth it, but in general, it was usually a one PPC machine. OK, so it's a big Nova, fair enough, I can dig it.

Nah, its firing pattern was- run to the point the next turn you can walk to ERPPC range
walk closer, fire both ERPPCs
walk closer, fire both ERPPCs (+2)
walk backwards, fire both ERPPCs (+3)
run closer, fire a ERPPC and both Streaks, maybe one at something behind you (heat zero)

But yeah, honestly I would have preferred it dump a ton of ammo for another DHS- not sure if it had the crits though since I am away from HMP/MM.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #367 on: 15 April 2019, 16:28:13 »
But yeah, honestly I would have preferred it dump a ton of ammo for another DHS- not sure if it had the crits though since I am away from HMP/MM.

In game rule terms, I'd rather have an ECM or even a ton of cargo, generally - if you've done 360 damage from your secondary weapons alone on a heavy, the fight should probably be over, and cargo can't explode. But in fluff terms, three ammo bins for four launchers is probably one for each forward launcher and a shared one for the rears, which sounds like a fairly logical engineering decision.

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #368 on: 15 April 2019, 16:43:31 »
I don't disagree with this in general but neither of these apply to my example of the Hellbringer. FASA clearly didn't care all that much about matching configuration to the artwork when it came to the original sixteen omnis. The Summoner has two triple racks of some kind of missile (perhaps they were thinking of ATM-style "one-size, every range" for Clan launchers?). The original Stormcrow art showing a rack of missiles in the CT while the Stormcrow's Prime configuration has no missiles at all. The PPC arm of the Summoner is shared by the Timberwolf -- or the ERML/ERLL arm of the Timberwolf is shared by the Summoner. And so on.

As for demonstrating new tech, that goes further to explain things, but I don't know why the Clans were given A-pods when most of their serious fighting was done against BA-equipped forces. Outside the scope of the thread I suppose.

Anyway, just to reiterate, I don't disagree overall, I just think it doesn't explain the Hellbringer and especially not its variants.

My guess (and I think I said it earlier in this thread) is that the Loki is supposed to be a better Warhammer.  As in, players who just purchased the Tech Readout are supposed to look at it and be amazed at the kind of crazy stuff the Clans can field.

The base Warhammer is a 70 ton mech that moves 4/6, has 18 heat sinks, carries 2 PPCs, an SRM-6, 2 Medium Lasers, 2 Small Lasers, and 2 Machine Guns.
The Loki Prime is a 65 ton mech that moves 5/8, has 26 heat sinks (13 double), carries 2 better PPCs, a better SRM-6, 3 better Medium Lasers, 2 Machine Guns, an anti-missile system, cool sensor abilities, a Targeting Computer, and these weird anti-infantry defense thingies.

It's way better than the Warhammer, which up to that point had been one of the standard bearers for a great heavy mech.  The Loki beats its brains out in almost every way.  The only thing the Warhammer has that's clearly better is that the Loki has less armor.  That's not a small thing, but you'd still pick a Loki every single time. 

So, if you're designing it from scratch, think "better Warhammer", and "we have to put all the new tech on at least one of the mech designs" (i.e., somebody gets stuck with A-Pods), and "we can't put all the good new tech on any one design".  And then the Loki makes perfect sense.  You gotta spread the good new tech around, and you gotta put the crappy new tech on a couple mechs somewhere.

The Loki was also named because of the weird, freaky weapon choices.  TRO 3050 notes it carries "an utterly mad weapons configuration".  So story-wise it's something that left the Inner Sphere mechwarriors scratching their heads about.  Regarding the alternate configs, I don't think the A is that bad.  It's a long range machine meant for brief engagements.  The B is confusing, and personally I'd want a lot more than 8 shots of Gauss Rifle ammo.  But if you think maybe it's designed for lower intensity battles it makes more sense.  Like maybe they've only got so many Streak 6s, and so if you've been assigned to go take out a tank company, well you get what you get.

Actually I think equipment scarcity is something that doesn't get addressed enough.  Some of these alternate configs might be a matter of filling up tonnage with the equipment you've got left over.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #369 on: 15 April 2019, 16:50:38 »
In game rule terms, I'd rather have an ECM or even a ton of cargo, generally - if you've done 360 damage from your secondary weapons alone on a heavy, the fight should probably be over, and cargo can't explode. But in fluff terms, three ammo bins for four launchers is probably one for each forward launcher and a shared one for the rears, which sounds like a fairly logical engineering decision.

I am in favor of designs that let you fire your two longest range weapons and run with no heat build up.  All in favor of bracket firing mechs, which is why I explained the pattern of the D as I suggested.

Scarcity for the Clans does not really count for what should have been Homeworld configs- I get it, its the reason the Garg Prime gets that 'Prime' designation.  The original configs would not have been maximum 'arm everything' using whatever pods were left over after months of fighting.  The Hellbringer B and I think the Summoner A that have a second ton of SRM ammo for a single launcher rather than give that Guass Rifle two tons.  I really wish that would have gotten corrected like the BJ-2s SHS, the MAD-5S CASE in the wrong location and a few others.
Colt Ward
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garhkal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #370 on: 15 April 2019, 23:15:42 »
I believe it was the armor that got suffered. You want CASE, sure lose half a ton...

Most Pilots wouldn't want to lose a weapon even as simple as a small laser.

TT

IMO that would depend on the pilot.. 

The cost of AC/5 ammo is trivial in comparison to LRMs.  If you're looking for a way to defend a site against possible but unlikely incursions by anything tougher than a modified truck or a bottom-of-the-barrel Industrial 'Mech, packing an AC/5 is a much more affordable alternative in the long term, and you won't spend a small fortune on ammo each month just for target practice.

I see nothing wrong with putting AC/5s on garrison or security units, or on cheap vehicles.  They're even acceptable "general purpose" weapons on some militia or support 'Mechs, due to their versatility with special ammo.  Putting them on front-line Battlemechs becomes highly questionable, especially after 3050, after which there are better alternatives for practically every possible application.

IMO it would also depend on the weight of the mech you are thinking of putting one on.  Yes a garrison mech may get away with it, but if say that mech is a light, having 8+ tons tied up for just one weapon, that deals a paltry 5 points of damage, to Me is a waste.

That's not so bad.  It's supposed to give you good protection against backstabbers.

And since many backstabbers are small jumpers, having that -2 to hit, helps out greatly!

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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #371 on: 16 April 2019, 09:19:35 »
Yeah, a pair of MPLs will keep that Fire Moth H, Phantom H, Piranha, Phantom C (ERSL config), and others out of the back arc.  Instead I will go hunt up a Fafnir or other mech that offers a explosion reward for poking them in the back.
Colt Ward
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grimlock1

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #372 on: 16 April 2019, 11:49:35 »
I am in favor of designs that let you fire your two longest range weapons and run with no heat build up.  All in favor of bracket firing mechs, which is why I explained the pattern of the D as I suggested.
I agree with Colt. Anything that can't fire any given bracket on a run without hitting +5 on the heat scale, makes my teeth itch.

While it's possible that the Timby D was conceived from birth as some kind of 360 degree whirling dervish, I would still bet a steak dinner that it's first draft had all streaks forward and 16 DHS. 

That means it can run and fire PPCs all day long until it makes a hole in something.  Then it's quad streak 6s for 24 possible locations rolls, and throw in a PPC just because this isn't Marquis of Queensbury rules. On a run, that will put you at +1, assuming all the streaks lock on. Keep that up for 4 rounds and the other fellow will probably be hating life. Sooner or later, one of those streaks is going to miss, and you're back to 0 heat.
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bluedragon7

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #373 on: 16 April 2019, 15:22:00 »
I seem to remember there being a site showing „1st draft“ versions of the original Omnimechs considered too powerful/streamlined?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #374 on: 16 April 2019, 15:24:25 »
Has there ever been any acknowledgement by any iterations of TPTB that the Mk I omnis were real?

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grimlock1

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #375 on: 16 April 2019, 15:33:48 »
I seem to remember there being a site showing „1st draft“ versions of the original Omnimechs considered too powerful/streamlined?
Yeah, Deathshadow... Deathstalker, or some such handle. So far as I know, nobody even remotely official has acknowledged them as anything but fan work.  On the other hand, I had a friend who was at a couple 'cons in the 80's and met some devs there.  He relayed stories, filtered through 30 years of nostalgia, of internal play testing with a 65 ton Crusader LAM.   The devs decided that was just a bit OP. He also said the devs implied that they dialed some of the Clan mechs down a bit.

But this is all apocrypha.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #376 on: 16 April 2019, 15:36:57 »
I seem to remember there being a site showing „1st draft“ versions of the original Omnimechs considered too powerful/streamlined?

It's one of those legends like the "Original' Comstar Sourcebook or the Berenstein Bears. It's something people insist they remember, but nobody can produce any evidence off.

Has there ever been any acknowledgement by any iterations of TPTB that the Mk I omnis were real?


At one point the powers that be said they'd find a way to incorporate them if anybody could find actual proof. Though that was a while ago.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #377 on: 16 April 2019, 15:42:27 »
At one point the powers that be said they'd find a way to incorporate them if anybody could find actual proof. Though that was a while ago.

*looks up from the plans of a Heavy Clan ERPPC which does 20 damage*  Oh?
Colt Ward
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #378 on: 16 April 2019, 15:43:37 »
Yeah, Deathshadow... Deathstalker, or some such handle. So far as I know, nobody even remotely official has acknowledged them as anything but fan work.  On the other hand, I had a friend who was at a couple 'cons in the 80's and met some devs there.  He relayed stories, filtered through 30 years of nostalgia, of internal play testing with a 65 ton Crusader LAM.   The devs decided that was just a bit OP. He also said the devs implied that they dialed some of the Clan mechs down a bit.

But this is all apocrypha.

any or all of that is possible. the play-testing process probably had a lot of adjustments and cuts like in any other game. whether there was a complete folder of original clan designs that got "adjusted for balance" is anyone's guess and probably won't ever be answered in any official capacity beyond possibly "[Employee X that left FASA in 1993] once told me...". I'm sure if you got the original designers around a table they'd have some fun stories from the early 80s when they were designing battledroids and the ideas that had that weren't workable or completely broken.

It's one of those legends like the "Original' Comstar Sourcebook or the Berenstein Bears. It's something people insist they remember, but nobody can produce any evidence off.
 

At one point the powers that be said they'd find a way to incorporate them if anybody could find actual proof. Though that was a while ago.

I've definitely been to the website that purported the designs as something designed but never used by FASA, though i don't recall any attempt at forwarding concrete proof that they were genuine.

*looks up from the plans of a Heavy Clan ERPPC which does 20 damage*  Oh?

one of the many what if's i've considered is what a second generation of clan upgrades would look like (and be ready to go for revival). the result was that the IS should basically just quit and cry.
« Last Edit: 16 April 2019, 15:46:30 by Sartris »

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grimlock1

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #379 on: 16 April 2019, 15:49:08 »
*looks up from the plans of a Heavy Clan ERPPC which does 20 damage*  Oh?
meh.  Call me when you get a Clan pulse PPC running.  >:D
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #380 on: 16 April 2019, 15:56:49 »
I've definitely been to the website that purported the designs as something designed but never used by FASA, though i don't recall any attempt at forwarding concrete proof that they were genuine.

The problem was apparently that everybody who said they saw them claimed that they'd only seen them in stuff in other people's possession, or in stuff that they once had, but since either got rid of or lost. So even the folks who believed they were real couldn't produce any evidence.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #381 on: 16 April 2019, 16:01:32 »
I just had a friend in Japan share a picture of their child that just started school wearing the yellow hat and the ransel pack.  I had to refrain from commenting asking what missiles were in the pack (Gundam Build Fighters) and what caliber cannon (Azur Lane / Kancolle) they were carrying.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #382 on: 16 April 2019, 19:20:43 »
It's one of those legends like the "Original' Comstar Sourcebook or the Berenstein Bears. It's something people insist they remember, but nobody can produce any evidence off.
 

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, but...what???
I got the Comstar Sourcebook as soon as it came out. So, what  did I miss?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #383 on: 16 April 2019, 19:28:23 »
Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, but...what???
I got the Comstar Sourcebook as soon as it came out. So, what  did I miss?

It is alleged by some that there was a 3025 ComStar book in the style of the house books but the only evidence is people saying they saw it at cons. It’s not the ComStar book based in the 3050s (aka the one that actually exists)

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #384 on: 16 April 2019, 19:32:23 »
Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, but...what???
I got the Comstar Sourcebook as soon as it came out. So, what  did I miss?

You didn't.  ;D There was a claim floating around here a few years back that Fasa had released a Comstar Sourcebook back in the eighties as a companion book to the old House books. A couple people even insisted they'd seen the book in stores (with a similar cover to the old house books) but didn't buy it.

BUT there was never any record of the book actually existing, no copies of it ever produced, or indication that it was ever considered. The only evidence that could be turned up was an unused product number from back in the day.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Robroy

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #385 on: 16 April 2019, 19:37:58 »
Thanks. I had not heard that rumor, and was confused as I bought mine back in the early nineties.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

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garhkal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #386 on: 16 April 2019, 22:57:34 »
meh.  Call me when you get a Clan pulse PPC running.  >:D

How's about a clan ER pulse PPC!

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #387 on: 17 April 2019, 00:13:20 »
Just as long as there are no wasp-filled Gauss rounds.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #388 on: 17 April 2019, 00:23:24 »
Yeah, a pair of MPLs will keep that Fire Moth H, Phantom H, Piranha, Phantom C (ERSL config), and others out of the back arc.  Instead I will go hunt up a Fafnir or other mech that offers a explosion reward for poking them in the back.

Fafnir can arm flip.

admittedly I'd rather have one MPL than the 2 ER Medium for back-scratching purposes, but it isn't defenceless.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #389 on: 17 April 2019, 07:59:20 »
The problem was apparently that everybody who said they saw them claimed that they'd only seen them in stuff in other people's possession, or in stuff that they once had, but since either got rid of or lost. So even the folks who believed they were real couldn't produce any evidence.

They aren't. I have an early draft at home and it doesn't have any significant changes. The biggest change I've seen in a draft from the FASA days to final print was that the Thunderhawk initially had DHS.
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