Mech design decisions that make no sense

[TigerShark]

The thing about the King crab is that it's basically the same concept as the Hunchback writ large and it's best used counter offensively.  If a lance of heavies or assaults have breached your lines, send in a lance of King crabs to break the assault.  Is that a profligate expense for the outcome?  Perhaps, but no one ever said the SLDF was shy about spending money

They have enough armour to walk into a serious fire fight expecting to walk out again, and they can pour a hell of a lot damage into a target incredibly fast - a single King crab is more than capable of felling even an Atlas and anything less will simply disintegrate under the kind of fire power they kick out, especially if they have already taken some hits punching through your lines - but they're still a team player.  A King crab is like the star striker in a soccer team who's got the clinical finish needed to score lots of goal, but only when his midfield team mates create the opportunities for him.

This is not to say more ammo wouldn't be welcome and to be honest I would prefer them to have double heat sinks too, but they don't really need the massive endurance of a long ranged sniper.  King crabs are all about finishing fights - not necessarily starting them.

I get the rationalization. But there's no reason you couldn't make them more useful for the exact, same cost for even LESS money.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

When did the Star League ever do anything for less money?

[BloodRose]

Everything about the KGC-000 is just terrible. It's a worthless design  IMO.

I once went up against one. It advanced inexorably towards me, taking fire from my Shogun and two Patton's and just eating it like a fatty in an all you can eat burger joint. Until it got close enough to be able to range in with its main guns that is. One Patton vanished and the second one was crippled by the next turn whilst the Shogun fled. Everything I had turned on it and whilst it eventually went down I spent so long shooting it that its supporting units had shredded my force. KGC 000's may be low on ammo but they are still damn scary, especially in close terrain.

[The_Caveman]

It's not like the design is particularly wasteful cost-wise. Standard engine, standard structure, standard heat-sinks. The only area where they really splurged was the ferro armor. There aren't a lot of ways they could have reached the same goal and cut costs. Even changing to an SRM boat would cost more in the long run thanks to the more expensive ammo.

You want to talk about a 'Mech that's a waste of money, look at the Berserker. It costs as much as a lance of Marauders and is worth perhaps a Marauder and a half.

[Hptm. Streiger]

It's not like the design is particularly wasteful cost-wise. Standard engine, standard structure, standard heat-sinks. The only area where they really splurged was the ferro armor. There aren't a lot of ways they could have reached the same goal and cut costs. Even changing to an SRM boat would cost more in the long run thanks to the more expensive ammo.

You want to talk about a 'Mech that's a waste of money, look at the Berserker. It costs as much as a lance of Marauders and is worth perhaps a Marauder and a half.

Well - when you put 10 DHS into the KGC 000 and drop the FF for maximum standard armor you get a Mech with more ammunition, that is better armored and you save roughly 160,000 CBills.

I think the KGC was okay when it was "developed" but all the retconed StarLeague Mechs like Pillager or NightStar or even the KGC-010 (well thats a scary Mech) made it look mediocre.

For a counter assault mech, the ammunition might be adequate to stop a charge of Mechs that already have seen lots of damage - but 10rounds are usually not enough to stop an Atlas even with scratched armor. And the more important question why to keep a 100t Mech in the rear and not use it at the front line?

[Colt Ward]

Because fresh forces can be a decisive tactical and strategic advantage.  Yes, its hard on the guys doing the fighting but when that untouched force slams into the enemy line they can be critical.  Look at historical battles, most had mobile reserves (typically some cav) that could be sent to seal off any breaches or to flank at the right moment.

[massey]

I think the KGC was okay when it was "developed" but all the retconed StarLeague Mechs like Pillager or NightStar or even the KGC-010 (well thats a scary Mech) made it look mediocre.

I think there's a bit of a problem with the timeline on when exactly advanced tech was available.  Sometimes you've got the Star League building old tech Atlases right before Kerensky leaves, and sometimes you've got Gauss boats running around long before that.  I think you just have to make peace with your own vision of it and ignore any intro dates that contradict it.  FASA didn't pay attention to that stuff and there's a lot of conflicting information.

[dgorsman]

The Regulars/Royal (THAF) split does kinda-sorta handle that, but yeah, some things you just have to make peace with.

[The_Caveman]

I think there's a bit of a problem with the timeline on when exactly advanced tech was available.  Sometimes you've got the Star League building old tech Atlases right before Kerensky leaves, and sometimes you've got Gauss boats running around long before that.  I think you just have to make peace with your own vision of it and ignore any intro dates that contradict it.  FASA didn't pay attention to that stuff and there's a lot of conflicting information.

I rationalize a lot of that stuff as the "old tech" that was available during the Star League era as being superior to the same "old tech" available in other eras. An AC/20 built in 2750 ought to be superior to one built in 3025 or in 2550. The lack of CASE on the Atlas can be solved easily if the SLDF-grade weapons demanded one less heat sink.

Although a lot of the weirdness with SLDF 'Mechs could be solved if there were some downside to double HS aside from the number of critical slots.

[grimlock1]

I rationalize a lot of that stuff as the "old tech" that was available during the Star League era as being superior to the same "old tech" available in other eras. An AC/20 built in 2750 ought to be superior to one built in 3025 or in 2550. The lack of CASE on the Atlas can be solved easily if the SLDF-grade weapons demanded one less heat sink.

Although a lot of the weirdness with SLDF 'Mechs could be solved if there were some downside to double HS aside from the number of critical slots.

There is also logistical inertia.

Given the size of the SLDF, even they couldn't necessarily afford to upgrade EVERYTHING. 

[Kovax]

Given the phenomenally long operational lifespan of a BattleMech if nothing actively destroys it, there would be a lot of older equipment still in service.  You can upgrade some of it over time, but in a lot of cases it's more than adequate for the task it's assigned to.  Upgrading isn't a high priority, if it's even authorized.  I can picture a lot of basic tech 'Mechs being operated in remote places not near an active border, but still in need of a garrison to deal with potential revolts or pirate raids.  Then the whole Star League went pear-shaped and they were called into front line service, because yet another part of the old front line (and the city it was stationed near) had suddenly ceased to exist.

Some units may have been intentional downgrades, for legal sale to the surrounding House armies.  The factories would likely have been required to remove some exotic piece of equipment which was not permitted for sale, and replace it with some other item or combination of more standard items to fill the space.  Guess what?  The design is now compromised and way less than optimal, but still reasonably effective at its intended purpose.  The only thing I see contradicting that is how mediocre a lot of the 2750 Star League designs ended up being, even with that exotic equipment.

[massey]

I rationalize a lot of that stuff as the "old tech" that was available during the Star League era as being superior to the same "old tech" available in other eras. An AC/20 built in 2750 ought to be superior to one built in 3025 or in 2550. The lack of CASE on the Atlas can be solved easily if the SLDF-grade weapons demanded one less heat sink.

Yeah I do too.  I figure a lot of Star League mechs would probably have a long list of positive Quirks that a normal mech wouldn't.  Basically the Star League had all kinds of tech advances that don't necessarily translate into more damage or more armor.

The Star League would have been working on lots of different tech improvements, and integrating them into the units they built.  At the time they didn't know what was going to be published in TRO: 2750.  That's just the well known stuff that ComStar kept track of afterwards.  But you might have a manufacturer that was making LRMs that got a +1 to the missile hit roll, all the time (without Narc or Artemis).  Maybe somebody had a cooling system that was going to be a competitor of DHS.  It just used better coolant and subtracted 2 extra heat.  Something like that might have been incorporated into the Marauder.

Maybe the Star League would have had its own HD DVD vs BluRay format wars.  At the time, DHS may not have looked like the obvious winner.

[The_Caveman]

Maybe the Star League would have had its own HD DVD vs BluRay format wars.  At the time, DHS may not have looked like the obvious winner.

Perhaps an early coolant flush system that came at no weight or space penalty, but was only compatible with single HS. You trade better sustained cooling for the ability to periodically zero out your heat load during a firefight.

[R.Tempest]

Yeah I do too.  I figure a lot of Star League mechs would probably have a long list of positive Quirks that a normal mech wouldn't.  Basically the Star League had all kinds of tech advances that don't necessarily translate into more damage or more armor.

The Star League would have been working on lots of different tech improvements, and integrating them into the units they built.  At the time they didn't know what was going to be published in TRO: 2750.  That's just the well known stuff that ComStar kept track of afterwards.  But you might have a manufacturer that was making LRMs that got a +1 to the missile hit roll, all the time (without Narc or Artemis).  Maybe somebody had a cooling system that was going to be a competitor of DHS.  It just used better coolant and subtracted 2 extra heat.  Something like that might have been incorporated into the Marauder.

IIRC the original 3025 TRO referred to Phoenix LRMs & Hawk SRMs for the Star League Era Crusader. Impression was certainly that these were 'better` than the standard munitions(maybe equivalent to Artemis but without the actual equipment).

[truetanker]

I've always supported my King Crab as a sole Sniper role.

Why, you ask?

Running with a large laser all day, spread some LRM love abound and oh yeah!, AC flavored buttersplats for those times that I want to stay syrupy at close range.

Split my shots, when I have to ( as in firing only one cannon, instead of two... those I save when I can good numbers ). Lay down enough constant damage and absorbing the return can scare people...

TT

[Orin J.]

At the tactical level, of course the pilot should have input on when to quit the field.  Barring mythic last stands and heroic rear guard actions, pulling back when you can no longer contribute is the smart thing to do.  It's not just saving your hide, its saving your machine for tomorrow's fight.

ironically, we're speaking the same thing on different arguments- the King crab is so underammoed because it's not supposed to go out and play as long as it wants. it's the commander's tool, he sends it out to administer a healthy dose of excessive fire and then trots back to his side. if the pilot wants to keep in the fight to grab some glory, he can shut it and trot home anyways.

[TigerShark]

I don't really buy this scenario as plausible so much as inserting a reason to have it make sense. No military I've ever heard of would purposely hamstring its soldiers as a way to force them to not make contact. i.e.: "we're sending your M1A2 SEP into the field with 5 rounds instead of 42 because you shouldn't be using the gun."  Does that happen by mistake? Sure. But nowhere does purposeful under-supply exist, to my knowledge.

It's (KGC-000) simply a bad design that makes no sense in-game or in reality, IMO. Even if the SLDF ordered it under-supplied in the original specs, the soldiers would have found out VERY quickly that they ran dry early in the engagement and a variant would have been produced to remedy the situation. And, frankly, that's what the -010 does -- The exact, same job as the -000, but uses its assets infinitely better and for only $1MM more in cost. Instead of 5 shots, you have 30 for each LB-10X and infinite ammo for the PPCs.

[The_Caveman]

And, frankly, that's what the -010 does -- The exact, same job as the -000, but uses its assets infinitely better and for only $1MM more in cost. Instead of 5 shots, you have 30 for each LB-10X and infinite ammo for the PPCs.

But it doesn't do the same job as the 000. LB10s and PPCs make for a support/sniper build. Dual AC/20s crunch 'Mechs and demoralize the enemy in a way that only dual AC/20s can.

If you're building a mixed lance to take on another lance, then yes, you take the 010 or the 001, 110% of the time. But for something that's meant to be used as a homogenous lance attached to a formation at battalion level to be used as a designated execution squad, the 000 is built almost exactly right. To really make it better at its job you would need weapons that wouldn't be invented for centuries, like HGRs or MRM-40s. Because again, its mission isn't to hang out on the front line like that company of Warhammers, it's meant to show up at a particular moment to turn a fair fight into an unfair one.

[Sir Chaos]

But it doesn't do the same job as the 000. LB10s and PPCs make for a support/sniper build. Dual AC/20s crunch 'Mechs and demoralize the enemy in a way that only dual AC/20s can.

If you're building a mixed lance to take on another lance, then yes, you take the 010 or the 001, 110% of the time. But for something that's meant to be used as a homogenous lance attached to a formation at battalion level to be used as a designated execution squad, the 000 is built almost exactly right. To really make it better at its job you would need weapons that wouldn't be invented for centuries, like HGRs or MRM-40s. Because again, its mission isn't to hang out on the front line like that company of Warhammers, it's meant to show up at a particular moment to turn a fair fight into an unfair one.

To make the -000 do that job better, all it needs is to drop the LRM rack (which it doesn´t need for its job) down to 10 and use the weight saved to double AC/20 ammo - *and* giving its long-range weaponry an ammo supply boost (12 is so much better than 8).

[Alsadius]

To make the -000 do that job better, all it needs is to drop the LRM rack (which it doesn´t need for its job) down to 10 and use the weight saved to double AC/20 ammo - *and* giving its long-range weaponry an ammo supply boost (12 is so much better than 8).

Yes, but FASA loved to give us all reasons to customize.

(Heck, you could just swap it for a PPC and add a ton of ammo, with no other changes, if you preferred. That might also be fun. Or swap the 15 SHS to 10 DHS, up the laser to a PPC/ERPPC, and double all your ammo loads.)

[Colt Ward]

Sure . . . but one of the other OOC things in that design is pretty simple.  The universe as spelled out at that time had few assaults- mostly mediums.  Many of the combat/line/trooper mediums were 4/6- Hunchback, Centurion, Enforcer, Blackjack, Vindicator, Whitworth, and the pocket med Panther.  Those mechs will form the bulk of what you should face statistically.  Throw in the more rare Hatchetmen and Wyvern for AFFC/DCMS along with most heavies doing 4/6 as well and when it gets to medium range its not going to have too many problems hitting.  And for most those mediums up into heavies like the Rifleman and Jagermech, a 20 point hit is going to wreck a limb or punch through a side torso.  Most of those medium's center torso is not going to like it.

Forget ripping the armor on other assaults, the King Crab was built to OSK the most common mech of its game play era- the medium mech.  If it does not kill it, then that rare/valuable/no-longer-made/precious should be retreating from having a open side torso- or missing side torso!

[Sartris]

can we all agree that literally none of us would have designed the -000 as it is and move on?

[Sir Chaos]

can we all agree that literally none of us would have designed the -000 as it is and move on?

And stop arguing ad nauseam about things none of us is ever going to convince the other of anything?

You´re taking all the fun out of this!

[Sartris]

some people here would defend even the most absurd canon design decisions to the death

in an AU where the king crab was designed with one leg, people would be out here defending it as a decision to keep the mech true to its mission as a defensive unit

You´re taking all the fun out of this!

[truetanker]

King Crab vs. a modern Mackie (3025).

And see who'll win in a standard play.

TT

[Sartris]

i've won the same fight with a spider

[Kit deSummersville]

i've won the same fight with a spider

I have yet to lose a BattleTech match against an invertebrate, it's not all that impressive. Try with a mammal and see how hard it is.

[grimlock1]

Yeah I do too.  I figure a lot of Star League mechs would probably have a long list of positive Quirks that a normal mech wouldn't.  Basically the Star League had all kinds of tech advances that don't necessarily translate into more damage or more armor.

The Star League would have been working on lots of different tech improvements, and integrating them into the units they built.  At the time they didn't know what was going to be published in TRO: 2750.  That's just the well known stuff that ComStar kept track of afterwards.  But you might have a manufacturer that was making LRMs that got a +1 to the missile hit roll, all the time (without Narc or Artemis).  Maybe somebody had a cooling system that was going to be a competitor of DHS.  It just used better coolant and subtracted 2 extra heat.  Something like that might have been incorporated into the Marauder.

Something I liked about HBS Battletech was how by changing the scale, they found the granularity to tweak and quirk a lot f weapons.  If a medium lasers is 25 points of damage, you can buff Magna model by 20% and have something that's a little bit better, but not overwhelmingly so.

[Sartris]

I have yet to lose a BattleTech match against an invertebrate, it's not all that impressive. Try with a mammal and see how hard it is.

look man we're not all George S. Patton of the gaming table and have to take the Ws where we can find them

[Elmoth]

HBS did not change the scale, they just multiplied it by 5. All weapon damage is boosted x5.

And they made the smaller AC deal more damage (CBT equivalence: AC2=5; AC5=9; AC10=15; AC20=20), which would be a very good thing to do in CBT as well IMO.

So an increase of 20% in damage of an ML is just making it do 6 points of damage in CBT :)