Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 146930 times)

victor_shaw

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1440 on: 16 July 2019, 06:17:57 »
My point is that while in universe, I understand that the different houses would field different mech, this still would only require about 17 to 34 mechs at most per house, less with crossover.
Trying to push an in universe reason to keep making TRO is a waste of time.
And we just have to except that CGL is a business needing to make money and leave it at that.
Again I personally feel that they should just optimize the mechs and stick to storyline updates.
But again TRO are big sellers so that will never happen.

grimlock1

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1441 on: 16 July 2019, 07:40:57 »
For other examples of "1st world powers" using mish-mash gear, pick a country and watch the related episodes on C&Rsenal.  Modernization programs are derailed, old gear is pulled from mothballs, production is ramped up, production is outsourced.  I want to say Remington took a contract to license build Mosin-Nagants for Russia.  The US couldn't spare Springfields and Enfields for training, so US troops trained on Mosins, shipped to England, where they had to learn an new rifle. I may be mixing my episodes, but there is at least one documented case of some oddball rifle being issued to a unit of engineers, who did use that rifle in combat.

At the same time, US troops were training on .30-06 Chauchats, which were less than reliable, but issued French built guns in 8mnm Lebel, which was actually pretty good for the day. 
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RifleMech

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1442 on: 16 July 2019, 08:33:00 »
I can't see houses limiting themselves to just 35 designs or less. That's like saying Ford never should have stopped producing Ford Model T. Why would we need a new one? I'm sure by now they could be equipped with anti-lock breaks, fuel cell engines, airbags, bluetooth, AC, satellite radio, and GPS. They might even come in different colors.


As has been mentioned, the Houses rarely throw things away. There's always a lower unit to pass things on to. That means more and more units as time marches on.

There's also the Houses size. A single company couldn't produce enough to support the whole military even with multiple factories. The Houses are just too big. I've mentioned the M4 Sherman before, in this or another thread. The M4 Sherman had multiple factories, with multiple variants in production at the same time. That was just the basic medium tank, not any of the more exotic varieties, copies, chassis variants or design inspirations. That's just one example from a tiny country compared to a House, in a war that would be considered minor in scale compared to those seen in Battletech.

In real life the Sherman copies didn't see much production. In BT, the Houses would need all the war material they could get. That means mass producion of Sherman copies like the Grizzly, and buying similar other tanks like the Nahuel DL 43 for their forces. Not only that but the M3 Lee/Grant wouldn't have ceased production. They'd still be used by second line forces as there's simply so much territory that the House needs to protect. Even tanks like the Ram and would have been mass produced. So a House is going to end up with many different tanks doing the same or similar jobs.   

As time moves on, tech improves, Houses get more advanced units and the hand me down process takes place. Frontline units get new equipment. Secondline units get the cast offs from the Frontline units, and so on out to the Periphery Miliita units. Plus you have other groups purchasing units for their own needs. Mercs are going to have their requirements. Police Forces are also going to have requirements. And none of the above include all the upgrading the various forces are going to do.

The Militias would also be buying/producing units for their own defense, and even for export.
Each Militia also might have their own requirements as to what they need. One planet might need a lot of DD Shermans while another would need one with a Fuel Cell and Environmental Sealing. And since they might not be able to license the plans for the Sherman they'd have to get the designs from somewhere else or create their own. That's also just the richer Militia units. Poorer units would use M3 Lees/Grants and Rams. The really poor ones are having to make do with the M2 tanks and even old Liberty Tanks and copies of the FT-17.

The end result is a massive number of different types of Tanks, each with a massive amount of variants. And just one type of unit, in one House. BattleTech has lots of unit types and lots of Houses to use them.

I think the TROs we've had barely scratched the surface of what is or was available. Entire production runs, their factories, and designers could have been lost to the fires of history and nukes. The only information that they ever existed is found in an ancient TRO, in an old library way out in the middle of no where. And its been put in the children's section because some kid used a crayon to color in the line art. Or there could still be numerous examples still around. We just haven't seen them in a TRO yet. Plus given that TROs are generally Tournament only leaves a lot of units we have yet to see. Like all those from the Reunification War, the founding of the Clans, and War of 3039 that used prototype tech. We know they existed but there's very few examples to be found.

So no I can't see a House Limited to just 35 designs. Just the frontline forces, maybe but not for all the forces a House might have in total.



massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1443 on: 16 July 2019, 11:31:16 »
I think another thing that is being missed is that the Houses have lots of powerful nobles within them, all of whom are competing for power.  If you're the House Lord, you don't want some Duke getting too much power.

It makes sense from a modern day perspective for the Federated Suns to pick about 5 mechs, and produce only those.  Let's say they had Enforcers, Valkyries, Phoenix Hawks, Warhammers, and Jagermechs.  And they're just going to build them in vast quantities until they outnumber everybody else.  With standardization, they should benefit from better economies of scale and be able to build larger numbers.  However, if you actually tried to do that, you're going to be giving your no-good cousin the Grand Duke more political power.  You want to limit how big those private armies can get, otherwise you might not be House Lord all that much longer.

Unlike modern militaries, House militaries aren't completely nationalized organizations.  A lot of the units are regional armies that owe their first loyalty to somebody other than the House lord.  Imagine if 70% of the US military was made up of a bunch of state militias.  Texas would have its own army, Nebraska would have an army, California would have one, etc.  And they all report to the US President, but everybody knows that if push comes to shove, those state troops are going to report to the governors of their own states.  The federal military might be powerful enough to defeat any single individual state, or maybe a small group of them, but not too many at once.  So you wouldn't want to let any one nobleman get too much power, or expanding their military by too much.

Buying a hodge-podge array of mech designs might not be the most efficient way to build your army, but it distributes the power better and keeps various nobles happy.  Duke Johnson will be happy because his Shadow Hawk factory got another order, and him being an ally is likely to keep Duke Stevens from feeling too adventurous.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1444 on: 16 July 2019, 11:37:59 »
Now transplant that whole idea to something like the Phillipines,  with hundreds if not thousands of separate islands.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1445 on: 16 July 2019, 12:27:17 »
All this comparison to real-world militaries is off topic.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1446 on: 16 July 2019, 12:57:49 »
All this comparison to real-world militaries is off topic.

Not really.  When you say a design decision makes "no sense", that's a pretty broad area.  There are a lot of undefined parameters there.  In what context might something make sense?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1447 on: 16 July 2019, 14:07:57 »
The comparisons seem to be in the course of making sense of various arguments in-universe.  They seem on-topic to me...

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1448 on: 16 July 2019, 20:12:36 »
It's a discussion on why the Inner Sphere has thousands of variants of different mechs still in circulation, which is really adjacent to the original discussion of mechs that were built in ways that had glaring flaws without in-universe justifications.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1449 on: 16 July 2019, 21:02:44 »
My point is that while in universe, I understand that the different houses would field different mech, this still would only require about 17 to 34 mechs at most per house, less with crossover.
Trying to push an in universe reason to keep making TRO is a waste of time.
And we just have to except that CGL is a business needing to make money and leave it at that.
Again I personally feel that they should just optimize the mechs and stick to storyline updates.
But again TRO are big sellers so that will never happen.

The last Technical Readout that CGL has made, that wasn't a reprint of existing material to keep it available, was Technical Readout 3150.  That was four years ago. The only announced Technical Readout that isn't a reprint is Technical Readout: Golden Century, which I believe will be PDF only and is on indefinite hold.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1450 on: 16 July 2019, 21:37:54 »
And even 3150 was in no small part stocked by units from the 3145 faction pdfs not included in the initial printing of TRO 3145. So really it’s been the better part of six years since the last big new unit dump.

Some of our assumptions about the product line are based on old information that may have been true in 2008-2010 but not any more. There will probably be another main line post 3150 TRO but the 90s-00s where we got one every 2-3 years won’t be coming back

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1451 on: 17 July 2019, 00:49:05 »
For other examples of "1st world powers" using mish-mash gear, pick a country and watch the related episodes on C&Rsenal.  Modernization programs are derailed, old gear is pulled from mothballs, production is ramped up, production is outsourced.  I want to say Remington took a contract to license build Mosin-Nagants for Russia.  The US couldn't spare Springfields and Enfields for training, so US troops trained on Mosins, shipped to England, where they had to learn an new rifle. I may be mixing my episodes, but there is at least one documented case of some oddball rifle being issued to a unit of engineers, who did use that rifle in combat.

At the same time, US troops were training on .30-06 Chauchats, which were less than reliable, but issued French built guns in 8mnm Lebel, which was actually pretty good for the day. 
We're not talking small arms here.

I can't see houses limiting themselves to just 35 designs or less. That's like saying Ford never should have stopped producing Ford Model T. Why would we need a new one? I'm sure by now they could be equipped with anti-lock breaks, fuel cell engines, airbags, bluetooth, AC, satellite radio, and GPS. They might even come in different colors.

-Snip-
The difference here is that Ford stopped producing the Model T when it made sense to, and they only add a design to their line-up when there's a need.

The last Technical Readout that CGL has made, that wasn't a reprint of existing material to keep it available, was Technical Readout 3150.  That was four years ago. The only announced Technical Readout that isn't a reprint is Technical Readout: Golden Century, which I believe will be PDF only and is on indefinite hold.
And I'm pretty sure that 3150, 3145, and 3085 largely contained designs that originated in Clickly-Tech

RifleMech

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1452 on: 17 July 2019, 02:37:59 »
It's a discussion on why the Inner Sphere has thousands of variants of different mechs still in circulation, which is really adjacent to the original discussion of mechs that were built in ways that had glaring flaws without in-universe justifications.

The thousands of mechs in circulation is were comparisons to real life are applicable.

I don't know why there isn't fluff to say why a Mech or tank or whatever has some flaw. I can however think of reasons why it could still be produced.

The flaw was unknown at the time.
They know of the flaw but its the only thing available.
Need for military equipment, flaws or not.
Contractual obligations.
Political pressure.
Economic pressure.
An incomplete understanding of the technology.
It seemed like a good idea at the time.

I'm sure there's other reasons.



The difference here is that Ford stopped producing the Model T when it made sense to, and they only add a design to their line-up when there's a need.

Battletech is supposed to make sense?  :o

Let's use the Wasp as an example. It's been in production for over 600 years. It's had many changes over the years. New armor, engines, weapons, chassis, body styling. Pretty much everything that could be changed has been yet it's still being produced even though there's been better scouts. Why should the Model T be any different? It can still be produced as it was or modernized as much as one wants. And when you consider Battletech is still using tech that predates the automobile who's to say there aren't Model Ts out there some where? They'd be cheap easy to make vehicles for a colony.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1453 on: 17 July 2019, 05:46:19 »
Battletech is supposed to make sense?  :o
Let me use something I think most people will get: One of the major criticisms of of Jayformers is the lack of conforming to it's internal rules

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1454 on: 17 July 2019, 07:09:07 »
Let me use something I think most people will get: One of the major criticisms of of Jayformers is the lack of conforming to it's internal rules

I don’t have any idea what this means.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1455 on: 17 July 2019, 07:39:17 »
The difference here is that Ford stopped producing the Model T when it made sense to, and they only add a design to their line-up when there's a need.

I will refute that with the Edsel, the Th!nk and Blackwood.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1456 on: 17 July 2019, 09:30:14 »
Battletech is supposed to make sense?  :o

Let's use the Wasp as an example. It's been in production for over 600 years.

There’s never been much realism in BT technology and industrial development.  If we still waged war using weapons from 600 years ago, then we’d still be swinging swords and maces and halberds from behind shields under armor suits and mail shirts, some of us on horseback and with proper archery support if we were lucky.  We don’t even use Sherman tanks from 60 years ago, nevertheless 600 year old technology and designs.

This lack of realism has been baked in from the beginning of the game and story.  Even if we accept the technological stagnation of the Successor Wars, it’s still unlikely that mechs generally, and certain mech designs specifically, would have remained the state-of-the-art for the entire run of the Star League’s 200+ year history.

Lack of realism is just the price paid to have a stable set of gaming rules and pieces set against a multi-hundred year epic story.  We simply have to ignore it to enjoy the game and setting.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1457 on: 17 July 2019, 09:43:58 »
The original military Jeep is a pretty good analogy of how the BT universe operates.  The US had the Jeep manufactured by several different companies, since the original manufacturer could no longer keep up with demand.  It was made a criminal offense to modify the design without approval, since supplying different parts for different versions would have been a logistical nightmare, and virtually all of the approved "upgrades" to the design were directly interchangeable with the original components or sub-assemblies.  It wasn't until post-war and the revocation of the restrictions that variations and changes were made, yet the basic design still remained mostly untouched for a few more decades (completely new designs were introduced, but did not REPLACE the original), and remained fairly static until the company was bought and sold a few times.

In the BT universe, with the difficulties and costs inherent in shipping spare parts for literally hundreds of different designs between different star systems, making changes in the design without the express permission of the House they're going to would be economic suicide.  There are already too many different manufacturers making too many different designs for most facilities to stock parts for, and adding sub-versions for those would rapidly make repairs and replacements unmanageable.  Given a choice between continuing to provide parts for its existing hundreds of Battlemechs of a particular design, or complicating the issue with two different and incompatible sets of components for basically the same chassis, it's no wonder that the House armies refuse the changes and continue to use flawed designs instead of upgrading.  Quick and easy fixes are one thing, but if it's not directly compatible, it doesn't get approved without some pressing reason behind it (like a powerful political backer, who probably has other priorities than pure military effectiveness in mind).

We don't use Sherman tanks anymore, but the US Marines continued to use a Sherman-derived design until only a couple of decades ago.  Those were based on a set of designs which originated in the 1930s, although its earlier Grant predecessor based on a lot of the same components was essentially replaced by the Sherman.  Unlike the Jeep, the Sherman had significant changes and upgrades made, with radically different models, but like the Jeep, most service components continued to be interchangeable within the entire series, so you COULD use parts from a Grant or early WWII Sherman to fix a substantially different Korean War model.  There are still Soviet T-34 tanks dating back to the mid-1940s in service in a few countries, although they're practically all gone.  That's a design that had significant transmission problems right from the start, yet it's still being kept in service since the origin of the design in the 1930s.  Basically, as long as parts are available, they're still being used.

If the parts are still being made 600 years later, and the chassis is structurally sound (thanks to wonder-tech from the 25th Century), it's at least plausible that the designs would still be viable, although few individual machines would be anywhere near that ancient outside of museum pieces.
« Last Edit: 17 July 2019, 09:56:00 by Kovax »

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1458 on: 17 July 2019, 10:00:38 »
The only announced Technical Readout that isn't a reprint is Technical Readout: Golden Century, which I believe will be PDF only and is on indefinite hold.

When did that get announced?
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1459 on: 17 July 2019, 10:02:30 »
off-handedly iirc. officially when it slipped off the coming releases page, i imagine.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1460 on: 18 July 2019, 01:25:41 »
Let me use something I think most people will get: One of the major criticisms of of Jayformers is the lack of conforming to it's internal rules
Helps if I don't make a typo, that should be Bayformers, the nickname for the live action transformers movies.

I will refute that with the Edsel, the Th!nk and Blackwood.
How many of there where successful?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1461 on: 18 July 2019, 07:35:10 »
There’s never been much realism in BT technology and industrial development.  If we still waged war using weapons from 600 years ago, then we’d still be swinging swords and maces and halberds from behind shields under armor suits and mail shirts, some of us on horseback and with proper archery support if we were lucky.  We don’t even use Sherman tanks from 60 years ago, nevertheless 600 year old technology and designs.

This lack of realism has been baked in from the beginning of the game and story.  Even if we accept the technological stagnation of the Successor Wars, it’s still unlikely that mechs generally, and certain mech designs specifically, would have remained the state-of-the-art for the entire run of the Star League’s 200+ year history.

Lack of realism is just the price paid to have a stable set of gaming rules and pieces set against a multi-hundred year epic story.  We simply have to ignore it to enjoy the game and setting.

Funnily enough Paraguay just retired their Sherman Tanks last year.   :o We can also do the knights on horse back with swords and shields and proper archery support in Battletech.  ;D We can't do musketeers though.  :(

We also know that mechs haven't been state of the art. State of the art has changed many times in Battletech. It improved for a while. Then things started degrading. The Marauder is a perfect example. It started out state of the arm and was downgraded.

Not everyone can afford state of the art though. The further they are from a frontline unit the less state of the art is found. And with Battletech using some tech that's a couple thousand years old it isn't unrealistic to find a Model T on some planet some where.   


snip

If the parts are still being made 600 years later, and the chassis is structurally sound (thanks to wonder-tech from the 25th Century), it's at least plausible that the designs would still be viable, although few individual machines would be anywhere near that ancient outside of museum pieces.

Which is why I brought up the Model T. It is still a sound functional automobile. There's no reason it couldn't still be viable in Battletech. 

As for units being 600 years old, isn't there fluff for the Banshee talking about Primitive versions being upgraded to standard tech and continuing to see service 600+ years later because they weren't on the frontlines?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1462 on: 18 July 2019, 08:15:40 »
If the parts are still being made 600 years later, and the chassis is structurally sound (thanks to wonder-tech from the 25th Century), it's at least plausible that the designs would still be viable, although few individual machines would be anywhere near that ancient outside of museum pieces.
I think it was 'Zuma in one of the Victor Milan books who compared a particularly temperamental Jenner to his grandfather's ax.  The one that's had six new handles and 3 new heads. 

We also know that mechs haven't been state of the art. State of the art has changed many times in Battletech. It improved for a while. Then things started degrading. The Marauder is a perfect example. It started out state of the arm and was downgraded.
I would argue that most mechs were state of the art, until the 3030's.  It's kind of pedantic but "state of the art" doesn't mean "bleeding edge."  It means "what is the industry doing now."  So as the industry lost capability in the succession wars, mechs degraded until they were at the level with the current "state" of the "art of battlemech production."

3030's and the Helm Memory core hits and new stuff starts walking off the lines, then people who can't afford to upgrade fall behind the state of the art.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1463 on: 18 July 2019, 13:30:51 »
Can someone explain the AC2 on the Vulcan-2T? Most of the rest of the design makes sense to me is infantry fighter and support. The AC2 is what? To crit enemy APCs from a county over?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1464 on: 18 July 2019, 13:52:00 »
Can someone explain the AC2 on the Vulcan-2T? Most of the rest of the design makes sense to me is infantry fighter and support. The AC2 is what? To crit enemy APCs from a county over?
Range. Same as with the Sentinel. AC/2 have range unlike most infantry weapons.

Yes, LRMs offer good range and more damage, as do many other weapons. But that's not so much a fault of the Vulcan as it is fault of FASA and their lack of sense.

That said, with TacOps AC rapid fire rules, the AC/2 can function as a suppressive fire weapon, cluster attacks gain bonus to suppression.

Plus if we assume some weapons can fire faster than once per 10 seconds (eg Solaris rules or how weapons are depicted in MechWarrior games), the AC/2 becomes a relatively fast-firing weapon, again useful for suppression and damaging heavier targets that the infantry have difficulties dealing with.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1465 on: 18 July 2019, 15:10:58 »
Autocannon rounds are also dirt-cheap, and the AC/2 gets a lot of shots per ton.  Need to take out infantry without getting close?  The AC/2 works as well as an AC/5 for the purpose, for a lot less money.  ...and yes, you CAN crit vehicles from the neighboring county.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1466 on: 18 July 2019, 15:21:49 »
The range of the AC/2 makes it a pretty decent AA weapon, useful whenever the revolting peasants you're suppressing get the idea to hang barrel bombs off of crop dusters.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1467 on: 18 July 2019, 15:28:53 »
I kind of wish the Vulcan's AC2 was mounted above the cockpit instead of below, because its really not all that good against infantry unless you load the single ton of ammo the mech has for it with fletchettes. It'd just give a better visual indicator of how it's used than just haphazardly stapling it to the bottom of where the ribcage would be on a person.

(Because I like the idea of using it to plink aircraft or countersnipe infantry with a 40mm analogue, and mounting it in a higher location makes that visual more sensible.)

truetanker

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1468 on: 18 July 2019, 15:51:05 »
Autocannon rounds are also dirt-cheap, and the AC/2 gets a lot of shots per ton.

Not shots, Salvos...

TT
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RifleMech

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1469 on: 18 July 2019, 16:17:07 »
I would argue that most mechs were state of the art, until the 3030's.  It's kind of pedantic but "state of the art" doesn't mean "bleeding edge."  It means "what is the industry doing now."  So as the industry lost capability in the succession wars, mechs degraded until they were at the level with the current "state" of the "art of battlemech production."

3030's and the Helm Memory core hits and new stuff starts walking off the lines, then people who can't afford to upgrade fall behind the state of the art.

State of the Art varies. What was state of the art does always remain so. A Standard tech Mech isn't going to to be state of the art next to a,Mech using SLDF tech. And that Mech won't be state of the art against one using Clan tech.