Knights of Saint Cameron ?

[JAMES_PRYDE]

I skimmed through the entry on Sarna, after reading a small bit about the sister on Jangso

Interesting read, was not sure where to post it

But quick question ? They are anti Clan, quiaff  ?

"friendly" with the Scorpions, especially as ilClan develops ?

What would be their view on the Fusion States

Good with the ELH ?

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

They are anti Clan, quiaff  ?

Based on the contracts they took, probably.

"friendly" with the Scorpions, especially as ilClan develops ?

No indication that they even know who they are. They haven't been seen since 3076.

What would be their view on the Fusion States

Hard to say. We really don't know anything about them after Mortimer Dewey took over, the dude's clearly got something sketchy going on behind the scenes. You don't get an infinite supply of money and gear for nothing.

Good with the ELH ?

Not sure they've ever worked together.

Overall they seem like some kind of mystery that someone was briefly interested in using during the early 2000s but never got followed up on, so they just disappeared during the Jihad and were never heard from again.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I do really Hope we get some info on these guys. They are one of my favorite non-state actor groups. Mainly because of the mystery.

[Mendrugo]

Their parent organization, the Cult of the Saints Cameron, makes a cameo at the end of "No Substitute for Victory" in 3152 and is referenced in "A Ship Out of Time" in Shrapnel #13 circa 3152, so the Cult is still around, and could potentially resurrect the Knights if it felt the need for an armed wing to achieve its goals.

[Metallgewitter]

The funny part is when the Knights dissapeared they too the remnants of Archer's Avengers (the Thorin Milita) with them. I always wondered why they were so willing to leave to space unknown

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

They wanted to expunge the inexplicable interest in a 19th century slaveowner insurrection even if they had to all die in unknown space to do it.

[CJC070]

The funny part is when the Knights dissapeared they too the remnants of Archer's Avengers (the Thorin Milita) with them. I always wondered why they were so willing to leave to space unknown

With the loss of Archer Christifori they seemed to have lost a sense of purpose and it was close to five years before they disappeared with the Knight of St. Cameron.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

oh I meant the Cult more in my questions

But they would be the same as the Knights correct ?

[Liam's Ghost]

The funny part is when the Knights dissapeared they too the remnants of Archer's Avengers (the Thorin Milita) with them. I always wondered why they were so willing to leave to space unknown

Wait, they did?

Huh.

Kinda hints at a story hook that will remain abandoned for... reasons.

[Metallgewitter]

Wait, they did?

Huh.

Kinda hints at a story hook that will remain abandoned for... reasons.

When the Knights returned from the Falcon front the remnants from Archer's Avengers decided to become mercenary (in this case joining the Knights). And later when the Knights suddenly packed up and left (I think that was near the end of the Jihad) the Avengers apparently left with them. At least there was no notice that they opted to stay in the IS

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Would it be fair to say that the Cult / Knights would, upon learning about the Scorpions and the ELH Genes in thier breeding programme, would they be open to it, or straight hostile ?

Would make for some good fiction

[tassa_kay]

Would it be fair to say that the Cult / Knights would, upon learning about the Scorpions and the ELH Genes in thier breeding programme, would they be open to it, or straight hostile ?

They probably wouldn't care either way, honestly.

[Mendrugo]

The core element of the Knights, at least as most commonly presented, was that they were ideologically motivated mercenaries who often helped clients (at least those occupying the moral high ground) by providing their services for free. 

The Cult of the Saints Cameron believed they could commune with the spirits of Mother Jocasta and other Camerons, and reputedly took their marching orders from the other side of the veil.  Not sure if the Knights factored that aspect into their planning.

Of note, they apparently used exotic minerals as part of their seances, and several tons of that stuff just dropped into the Wolf Empire's lap, as of 3152.

Re: the Clan genetics - if it were ever to come out that Jennifer Winson was, in fact, the offspring of Richard Cameron, the Winson Bloodhouse might have some instant super-fans.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Re: the Clan genetics - if it were ever to come out that Jennifer Winson was, in fact, the offspring of Richard Cameron, the Winson Bloodhouse might have some instant super-fans.

I never knew this, interesting

[Mendrugo]

I never knew this, interesting

Sources on this are in "Fall From Glory" and "Liberation of Terra".  Liberation of Terra makes reference to accusations that Richard abused his sisters, and another sidebar mentioned that a trusted servant had fled into hiding with "the child Helena couldn't keep." 

What do we find in Fall From Glory but a girl about Nicholas' age, living in hiding in Moscow, under an assumed name.  Nick's mother recognizes the kid, and tells him to stay away from her. 

Nothing super concrete, but the fact that she kept using a variety of assumed names as she joined the Exodus fleet and was one of the first ones extracted by the SLDF task force that dropped on Moscow, suggests that "Jes Cole" may, in fact, have been "the child Helena couldn't keep."  That at least makes her a Cameron.  If the allegations against Richard were true, that makes her Cameron on both sides of the (non-branching) family tree.

[Colt Ward]

We also do not know exactly who the actors were in that fiction with the . . . Merc KS?  Malice & Redemption?  Where two guys were working a WMD site to pull mechs out of the wreckage.

[ShroudedSciuridae]

The Knights/Cult gets even more rabbit holey when you take Pulsar into account, where the mother of a Clan Nova Cat founder prophesied Richard Cameron's murder.

In the end I'm sure it's just the devs having fun with the community's penchant for conspiracy theories just like with the Wolverines.

[Rainbow 6]

Would be nice to see another one of the early mercenary companies make a come back in the IlClan era.

Didn't know that Archer's Avengers had taken the mercenary route either but i'd like to see them come back as well.

[glitterboy2098]

bringing the Knights of St Cameron back would be interesting. especially if you could tie them into some greater movements that oppose an ilClan led version of the star league. i could see any faith that holds the Camerons and the league up as divine seeing the clan way as an anathema.

[ANS Kamas P81]

That would be a hell of a time to reveal Jennifer Winston as a surviving Cameron, and her bloodname heritage being arguably her linear descendants to form a Cameron house.

[BrianDavion]

not that it matters the Wolves gave the Winston line to the Coyotes,

[tassa_kay]

Not that it would matter anyway because the Camerons and their realm are dead and gone and no one of any significance outside of the Clans (and I'd wager not even all of them) would care in the slightest. There's no claim to press.

[Colt Ward]

not that it matters the Wolves gave the Winston line to the Coyotes,

They had two Winson lines, Jerome & Jennifer . . . Jennifers was given to the Coyotes yes, but nothing I can see says it was to be made their new exclusive- it also would not matter b/c of the coming divide.  Both Winson Bloodhouses would also still be represented in the Warden Wolves.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

That would be a hell of a time to reveal Jennifer Winston as a surviving Cameron, and her bloodname heritage being arguably her linear descendants to form a Cameron house.

If people were THAT desperate for a Cameron that they'd follow one no questions asked, wouldn't they have already pledged their loyalty to Regulus?

[Colt Ward]

I do not have the original League book- how far back does the 'cadet' branch go?  Is it really a cadet?

Either way, Jen Winson's spawn would still be 'closer' to the last First Lord.

[Elmoth]

I think nobody wants a cameron. The OS moved away grom that to SOME people the SLDF period might be the desired benchmark, but saying tha this is a benchmark and that you would follow a Cameron is quite a stretch.
.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I do not have the original League book- how far back does the 'cadet' branch go?  Is it really a cadet?

Either way, Jen Winson's spawn would still be 'closer' to the last First Lord.

The exact origin point of House Cameron-Jones isn't stated but they are specifically stated as being THOSE Camerons in HB:HM.

I think nobody wants a cameron. The OS moved away grom that to SOME people the SLDF period might be the desired benchmark, but saying tha this is a benchmark and that you would follow a Cameron is quite a stretch.

Yeah, for sure! My point was that nobody's that much of a slave to blood that they would just go "oh we sure did feel like the Clans were a perversion of the legacy of the Saints Cameron but now that we know they have a great-great-great-great-great-great-grandkid who's a Clanner all our prior beliefs on EVERYTHING are invalidated."

[ShroudedSciuridae]

bringing the Knights of St Cameron back would be interesting. especially if you could tie them into some greater movements that oppose an ilClan led version of the star league. i could see any faith that holds the Camerons and the league up as divine seeing the clan way as an anathema.

They're coming back, or at least one chapter house worth of them. See No Substitute for Victory Epilogue. Though that does throw real world complications into the mix as that author is both no longer writing for BT, and really liked to throw red herrings (eg Clan Wolverine/The Clave) out there.

If visions are accurate , with the usual caveat that "there's no supernatural in BT," they're going to have a busy time fighting against "dragons and bears, hounds and birds." While the natural inclination will be the later two referring to Wolf and Jade Falcon it could also point to ARLC & FWL. That would mean all four factions referred to as potential opponents of Alaric

As for a Winston/Cameron revelation that could potentially shift the Knights to the ilClan camp if everything lines up correctly. Or in the spirit of balkanization divide the group up into even more hostile factions. Some discussion of that eventuality seems like it would fit nicely as For ilKhan's Eyes Only.

Frankly I can't wait to see what happens next in the metaplot. I haven't been this excited for releases since Twilight of the Clans rolled out.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

That's an awfully large disparity in power. Arc-Royal has a single mixed regiment of troops while the FWL is, y'know, a nation-state.

[Starfury]

They could easily end up in the Tamar March/former Jade Falcon OZ as that seems to be the new Chaos March for the ilClan era. 

[JAMES_PRYDE]

So at a stretch, who could be related to a Cameron, in ilClan ? Kind of looking for points for creating a new Character that my main Blackwatch Falcon one could encounter, or for that matter of fact my Hinterlands character could learn about through the Monastery in the end of "No Substitute for Victory"

As I am really starting to get into the TH / 1st Star League now too

[Metallgewitter]

There are still cadet lines of the Cameron clan out there. So in theory you could find some minor noble with very, very, verrrryyyyy thin lines of connection to the Camerons out there. Or if you are conspiratorial every holder of the Jennifer Winson bloodname or descendant from Jennifer Winson's genes

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Or if you are conspiratorial every holder of the Jennifer Winson bloodname or descendant from Jennifer Winson's genes

So basically the secret Wolverines I have read about on Sarna ? Where are they (hiding) in ilClan ?

Also what is "The Clave" mentioned in previous posts ?

[ShroudedSciuridae]

Within the Clans? Anyone decanted from the Jennifer Winson bloodline. I'd find it doubtful anyone would dare to reave a bloodcount from the Founder's wife so it's likely still at twenty-five. In the ilClan era we know of one, Isabella Winson of the Ninth Wolf Guards Striker Cluster (RG27) but no idea if she's part of Jennifer or Jerome's blood heritage.

What could be interesting is if Jennifer is part of Vlad Ward's heritage. It wouldn't matter in the Clans since Ward was his matrilineal line, but it could matter to the feudal monarchists in the Sphere. Assuming there's a drop of Vlad's blood in Alaric at all, which is a whole other thread.

[ShroudedSciuridae]

So basically the secret Wolverines I have read about on Sarna ? Where are they (hiding) in ilClan ?

Also what is "The Clave" mentioned in previous posts ?

Only time The Clave have come up this far. $0
https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/battletech-redemption-and-malice

As for the Wolverines, that's a different genetic conspiracy. Basically some elements of Clan Wolverine survived (this is fact), met with ComStar (conjecture and rumor from here on out) and set up a powerbase within the Order to destroy the Clans out of a centuries old revenge vendetta. All while also, maybe, hiding as The Clave in the coreward Periphery.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

How can one have the Bloodname, but not heritage ?

[ShroudedSciuridae]

How can one have the Bloodname, but not heritage ?

Oh that's easy, Everything Katrina Touches Dies™

Alaric has been described as the product of Katherine and Victor's DNA, and as Katherine and Vlad (matrilineal). Or perhaps a Twins style mix of Katherine and Victor's DNA patrilineally and Vlad. Alaric has gone on public record as Katherine and Vlad being his genetic parents but the truth is still fuzzy.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

So at a stretch, who could be related to a Cameron, in ilClan ? Kind of looking for points for creating a new Character that my main Blackwatch Falcon one could encounter, or for that matter of fact my Hinterlands character could learn about through the Monastery in the end of "No Substitute for Victory"

As I am really starting to get into the TH / 1st Star League now too

The rulers of Regulus are Camerons.

The fact that nobody is throwing themselves at the feet of Regulus and begging to serve them shows how little having "a Cameron" actually means.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

The rulers of Regulus are Camerons.

The fact that nobody is throwing themselves at the feet of Regulus and begging to serve them shows how little having "a Cameron" actually means.

Interesting, but I am more looking for "pure" blood. Although "Cadet" what does that actually mean ?

To fuel ilClan conspiracy theories (development plots), perhaps the Order has a massive secret underground Brain Cache, ready to deploy at the right "divined" time

[tassa_kay]

Interesting, but I am more looking for "pure" blood.

That's about as "pure" as you're gonna get.

Although "Cadet" what does that actually mean ?

Cadet branches are the descendants of a noble family's younger scions.

[BrianDavion]

they're called Cadet branches because while they start off outside the line of sucession those Cadet branches can be called upon should the ruling line fail. Notable examples of Inner Sphere rules from cadet branches within the Inner Sphere are Julian Davion, Adam Steiner, Yori  (Sakamoto) Kurita

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

That's about as "pure" as you're gonna get.

Looking for "pure" blood usually entails inbreeding, so maybe this is all a Capellan plot?

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Inner Sphere rules from cadet branches within the Inner Sphere are Julian Davion

Always liked Davion 

[Mendrugo]

When Janos Marik was hating on his own family after Anton's revolt, he looked further afield for a new heir (his previous heir apparent having sided with Anton and been executed), and for a time considered his third cousin, with whom he shared a common great-great grandparent.  Cranston Snord kinda snuffed that out by kidnapping the guy and hauling him back to Tharkad to be ransomed, forcing Janos to turn to Thomas.  And we all know how that turned out...

[Metallgewitter]

To be fair the real Thomas Marik was a good ruler until he was nearly killed by another family member. No wonder that House Marik has the image of being one family member away from a civil war: the most prominent history chapter is filled with civil war.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

You could probably point to Janos (and Giovanni Steiner) as examples of why most House rulers don't have a ton of kids. Janos and Giovanni did, look where that landed their realm.

[Minemech]

 He likely would have remained a good ruler had no bionics been implanted. If I recall it is thought to be a genetic issue particular to the Marik family.

[BrianDavion]

There is ZERO evidance Bionics causes madness. I mean the Tramua from being nearly killed in an explosion could unhinge someone pretty easily. epsecially as people turning to religion, hard core, for answers in light of troubling events in their life is hardly an unprecidented thing

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

He likely would have remained a good ruler had no bionics been implanted. If I recall it is thought to be a genetic issue particular to the Marik family.

The people who chalk it up to a genetic issue are just bigots trying to science up their bigotry.

[Mendrugo]

The "cybernetics causes madness" bit is a legacy holdover from the original BattleDroids writeup, where DroidWarriors who got cybernetic implants were described as becoming increasingly emotionally numb, colder, and less human over time.  It really hasn't surfaced in canon in the BattleTech setting in that form, though the authors of the original Marik SB alluded to it a few times.

[Minemech]

 Given how easily knowledgeable fans confused genuine canon fluff on Gerald Marik with a statement about reality, I would be fine with a full-blown retcon.

[Metallgewitter]

So far the only implants that cause neural damages are the EI implants for Protomech pilots. This can lead to a form of "God complex". But Bionics in general don't seem to cause any mental damages.

[BrianDavion]

Given how easily knowledgeable fans confused genuine canon fluff on Gerald Marik with a statement about reality, I would be fine with a full-blown retcon.

just because peoplel belive X in universe does not mean X is true, and I'd rather the setting not be dumbed down for people incapable of understanding that

[Minemech]

 Given that I do not use Battletech for my understanding of reality, how do we resolve the fact that an in-character comment was treated and confronted as a statement of reality by others? Frankly it could be true in the Battletech universe and false in reality or true in both. We are not the only ones reading these threads, we simply are posters. I am probably not going to succeed on diligence if I am required to certify that individual posts are in-character every time it is necessary to do so, I chill on these forums. If I stop posting in-character, I lose some of the fun of pretend mech game discussion. I did not take a personal position of an in-character post, but some took it to mean that I thought it was real, that is a problem. The bionics thing is a Free Worlds League character item that tends to get treated in resources related to it. No one thinks that it is more than fiction.   

[tassa_kay]

how do we resolve the fact that an in-character comment was treated and confronted as a statement of reality by others?

By not making in-character comments in a non-roleplaying space. Or, failing that, clearly demarcating your comments accordingly so people who are actually trying to have a serious discussion know upfront not to take your comments seriously.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Are there any Cadet branches in the ELH ?

[Rainbow 6]

Oh that's easy, Everything Katrina Touches Dies™

Alaric has been described as the product of Katherine and Victor's DNA, and as Katherine and Vlad (matrilineal). Or perhaps a Twins style mix of Katherine and Victor's DNA patrilineally and Vlad. Alaric has gone on public record as Katherine and Vlad being his genetic parents but the truth is still fuzzy.

He must have some Ward DNA in him as it was required to activate the recording telling him where he could find the McKenna's Pride.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Are there any Cadet branches in the ELH ?

No. The Camerons weren't going to put their relatives in a non-Royal unit.

The "cybernetics causes madness" bit is a legacy holdover from the original BattleDroids writeup, where DroidWarriors who got cybernetic implants were described as becoming increasingly emotionally numb, colder, and less human over time.  It really hasn't surfaced in canon in the BattleTech setting in that form, though the authors of the original Marik SB alluded to it a few times.

Sounds like an excuse not to acknowledge the effects of prolonged combat on people, if you ask me...

"Yeah it's just because they've got implants, not because they burned a bunch of human beings alive with flamers earlier today."

[BrianDavion]

No. The Camerons weren't going to put their relatives in a non-Royal unit.

Sounds like an excuse not to acknowledge the effects of prolonged combat on people, if you ask me...

"Yeah it's just because they've got implants, not because they burned a bunch of human beings alive with flamers earlier today."

agreed. I mean, "I got blowed up!" is going to mess with your head more then a prostetic arm is

[Mendrugo]

The old BattleDroids text literally said that, once connected via the neurohelmet, the DroidWarrior controlled the 'Mech just like it was their own body.  So that gets into the territory that BattleTech ultimately returned to with direct neural interfaces and resulting madness.  (Same with enhanced imaging implants)  Could be that the neural hookups required to make fully functional (responsive to nerve impulses) prosthetics had some sort of interaction with the neurohelmet activity, resulting in some level of degenerative brain damage that deadened emotional reactions.

Either way, it's a classic "Early Installment Weirdness" artefact, and not a slam on people with prosthetics in the modern setting.

[DOC_Agren]

Well it is also something most "future" games included as part of getting Cyber..

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Ok in jest, what is the possibility of this happening ?

Order or Chapter of Saint Cameron having / finding a (secret) "Brain Cache"

Other Inner Sphere developments, new Tamar Pact made up of Hinterland factions, on a council but still sovereign (against the Horses perhaps)

ELH, RAF remnants, NWH forming anti League alliance

Also another interesting thing on my mind is how will ilClan look after 20+ years, aka, Alaric gone perhaps, first generation, dawning on second how integration will go

[Colt Ward]

He must have some Ward DNA in him as it was required to activate the recording telling him where he could find the McKenna's Pride.

No, he really does not . . . the ship's manifest tracks who is aboard, his codex is faked up, boom message pops on screen.

[BrianDavion]

Well it is also something most "future" games included as part of getting Cyber..

mostly to dischourage every cyberpunk RPG from having the players end up more cybernetic then robocop :)

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Ok in jest, what is the possibility of this happening ?

Order or Chapter of Saint Cameron having / finding a (secret) "Brain Cache"

Well when your story begins with "my mercenary unit found a Brian Cache" you've gone full Monty Haul on page 1.

Other Inner Sphere developments, new Tamar Pact made up of Hinterland factions, on a council but still sovereign (against the Horses perhaps)

Well Brewer already asked other people to make an alliance with him and they told him to piss off. The Malthuses are already working with Regis but she doesn't want anyone to know, because the terms of their agreement involve her turning a blind eye to bad shit. The ARLC is very clearly refusing to step over the line to independence at all. Jiyi's Falcons are not willing to recognize civilians as equals to them. So you could have some kind of alliance between the AML and Tamar Pact. Not much of a council.

ELH, RAF remnants, NWH forming anti League alliance

The ELH has thrown in with the FS, being quite indebted to Julian Davion after he went all Gordian Knot on all their legal woes. The NWH has also subcontracted to Hansen's Roughriders to work for the FS.

[Minemech]

Now that the ELH is back, here is to hoping Smithson's Chinese Bandits return. No one holds hope for the Star Guards.

[CJC070]

No one holds hope for the Star Guards.

(In a small voice) I have hope.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I always assumed the Star Guards were a pet unit of someone who had stroke at FASA but were only employed for a narrow window of time. In 3025 they're one of the biggest outfits in the Inner Sphere, in 3050 they just get wiped out as a footnote.

[Middcore]

I always assumed the Star Guards were a pet unit of someone who had stroke at FASA but were only employed for a narrow window of time. In 3025 they're one of the biggest outfits in the Inner Sphere, in 3050 they just get wiped out as a footnote.

Some "big" players had to get wiped out to sell the Clans as a threat. The 12th Star Guards are just the Free Rasalhague Republic writ small. Born to die, so that factions and units TPTB actually cared about could live on.

[DOC_Agren]

mostly to dischourage every cyberpunk RPG from having the players end up more cybernetic then robocop :)

Not going to disagree.. Cyberpsychosis and to bring in C-SWAT to deal with them.

[Colt Ward]

I always assumed the Star Guards were a pet unit of someone who had stroke at FASA but were only employed for a narrow window of time. In 3025 they're one of the biggest outfits in the Inner Sphere, in 3050 they just get wiped out as a footnote.

Eh, 3 of the 5 regiments got hammered- and we know one went native on a Falcon world rather than fight more.  IIRC the remains during the Jihad became the Periphery Star Guard, employed by IE and they have a short story IIRC.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Some "big" players had to get wiped out to sell the Clans as a threat. The 12th Star Guards are just the Free Rasalhague Republic writ small. Born to die, so that factions and units TPTB actually cared about could live on.

I feel like it might be more than that because they're that big in the House books. Everything else they farted out specifically to get churned under by the Clans (like the FRR and shitloads of AFFC regiments) was introduced in 20-Year Update.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

I thought that Jiyi was now "everyone is important to Jade Falcon" even civs, thus they are recognised

[Metallgewitter]

I thought at the beginmning of the Clan invasion the Star Guards had 3 regiments left. The majority got wiped out by the Wolves but some support elements managed to flee. Those units became then known as Thor's Hammers as their CO was the one who commanded the Guards artillery support and he was only interested in building an artillery unit.

The Periphery Star Guard is a different beast. They were a rather loose collection of mercenaries that supported Comstar's Explorer Corps and then were hired by Interstellar Expeditions to guard their dig sites.

[CJC070]

I thought at the beginmning of the Clan invasion the Star Guards had 3 regiments left. The majority got wiped out by the Wolves but some support elements managed to flee. Those units became then known as Thor's Hammers as their CO was the one who commanded the Guards artillery support and he was only interested in building an artillery unit.

The Periphery Star Guard is a different beast. They were a rather loose collection of mercenaries that supported Comstar's Explorer Corps and then were hired by Interstellar Expeditions to guard their dig sites.

We also have Bander Battlemechs whose Chief Tech was a member.

[Middcore]

I thought at the beginmning of the Clan invasion the Star Guards had 3 regiments left.

They had the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 7th regiments.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I thought that Jiyi was now "everyone is important to Jade Falcon" even civs, thus they are recognised

As long as they're willing to recognize their place in the hierarchy they can be "one of the good ones." Marena offers him a position as the leader of her army, and the idea of a warrior not being inherently Superior to a merchant is something he is not willing to entertain.