Author Topic: MechWarrior: Destiny  (Read 133203 times)

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #870 on: 06 February 2020, 04:24:51 »
What's intimidating about a 4-5,000 point build?   ???

Asgo

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #871 on: 06 February 2020, 04:39:07 »
...
For example, there is no good reason to use 4000-5000 points to require a character build. That can be intimidating to new players. The system could use a simple 100 points to divide between skills, attributes and traits, or employ a Priority system. If the system were modified to encourage some degree of personal customisation, then so much the better.
without knowing the increments a 100 point system could be more daunting than a 5000 point system.
besides, this is a RPG - you generally can trust players with a few numbers or their characters would be hiding in a tavern quivering in fear of getting any XP in excess of single digits. ;)

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #872 on: 06 February 2020, 08:19:36 »
What's intimidating about a 4-5,000 point build?   ???
Seriously? I love math, got a math degree in College and *I* think that's way too much math for a game. The fact that you get 125 or 350 or 275 points for some attributes/etc., then have to either pay points to get them to the nearest 100 or drop it down to the lower 100 and get points back? Dude, it's not that it's impossible to do, but it is incredibly boring.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #873 on: 06 February 2020, 08:32:49 »
Hard to argue with Dr. Banzai. Dude's a rockstar physicist neurosurgeon.

It would be nice to see a character creation process that is not so laborious. But what that looks like, I don't know.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #874 on: 06 February 2020, 09:49:08 »
I don't think the number of points is the problem as much as the system itself.  Not every RPG should be Pathfinder or 5e, but there is an argument for making character creation less of the complicated burden that ATOW does. 

For one thing, the system is confusing from the outset. You start out with an XP pool that you divide into other XP pools that you use to buy attribute and skill scores that you don't find the conversion values for until the end of the chapter in a chart that is ludicrously too small for how important it is.

But wait... before you can spend any of your XP on other XP, you first have to spend some of your XP on Universal XP which, even though every character has to go through the step, isn't factored in anywhere before you start spending XP. Why not just start everyone with the Universal XP and lower the recommended XP range to compensate?  Or just add all of those required XP buys into each of the Stage 0 options?  Why add the that additional pointless hoop to jump through?

I like what ATOW was trying to do.  Its a lifepath system without the threat of catastrophic injury from 3rd edition, but its just such a silly, opaque system that turns me off to ever wanting to play.
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monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #875 on: 06 February 2020, 11:29:39 »
I think a lot of the reason the 5,000 XP isn't particularly intimidating to some of us though is because of Battlevalue.  Yes it isn't as labor intensive to put together a simple lance for 5,000 Battlevalue but when you start doing stuff like building a bigger force, using C3, or Semi-guided LRMs?

Yeah the effort you start having to put into that starts making AToW's xp pools and what you have to do with them reasonable.

ActionButler

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #876 on: 06 February 2020, 13:56:28 »
I think a lot of the reason the 5,000 XP isn't particularly intimidating to some of us though is because of Battlevalue.  Yes it isn't as labor intensive to put together a simple lance for 5,000 Battlevalue but when you start doing stuff like building a bigger force, using C3, or Semi-guided LRMs?

Yeah the effort you start having to put into that starts making AToW's xp pools and what you have to do with them reasonable.

But is it fun?

Certainly it makes for an interesting mental exercise, but in the general sense of the word and for the casual tabletop RPG player, is it fun?  Creating a character in ATOW is not impossible, but it places significantly more of a burden onto the player than any of the previous Mechwarrior editions. And, in the end, what do you get out of it? You get a character to play, just like all of those other systems give you without requiring nearly as much effort.

So the question remains, apart from the novelty of it, what is the actual advantage of such an onerous character creation process?
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Talen5000

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #877 on: 06 February 2020, 14:54:41 »
What's intimidating about a 4-5,000 point build?   ???

To some people - nothing.
To others, they see "I have to spend 5000 points building a character and need to manipulating aspects that are worth 100 or 50 or 10 or 500 points? Too much math, too much hard work". I've seen players get up and leave during character creation because of the time it was taking and the math involved. Minimal was still too much.

A points based system should be simple....if nothing else, a 50 point system with every value in the creation section divided by 100 would be more welcoming but really, if you are going to implement a points based system, then you should do it properly.

AToW has plenty of good ideas and it is a fully built RPG...but so much of it is simply - IMO - half baked and needs refining and improving.

Now, I have my own ideas about what makes a good system.
I like detailed characters but I prefer simple mechanics.
I like knowing what my character can do, and how good he is, but I prefer not to have to fiddle around with modifiers. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. But overall, they are great for the board game but in an RPG, figuring out every last +1 is not something I find myself interested in while playing. It is enough for me to know if an action is easy or difficult or impossible.

So those will colour my opinions.

But the Points based system as presented in AToW is - IMO - flawed. It is, in its own way, better than the LifePath system...which again, has its own advantages...but it is built as an adjunct to the LP system rather than a Character Creation system in its own right and therefore it contains some of the flaws of the LP system

5000 points for a character build is going to be intimidating to some players and that isn't what you want. I don't think it's what the game should be aiming for. It screams "MATH" and players can, will and have dropped the game as a result.

AToW has a lot going for it....but at the same time there is just so much in there that should be dropped or rewritten.

Destiny? Destinys character generation system is much better, much faster. It makes things too simple, IMO, but it is a streamlined system that works well and could be adapted for use in AToW.

Still have no plans to play the game...I've read the system and I really don't like it...but the chargen model is an improvement over AToWs
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monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #878 on: 06 February 2020, 16:15:38 »
But is it fun?

Certainly it makes for an interesting mental exercise, but in the general sense of the word and for the casual tabletop RPG player, is it fun?  Creating a character in ATOW is not impossible, but it places significantly more of a burden onto the player than any of the previous Mechwarrior editions. And, in the end, what do you get out of it? You get a character to play, just like all of those other systems give you without requiring nearly as much effort.

So the question remains, apart from the novelty of it, what is the actual advantage of such an onerous character creation process?

Don't get me wrong, I was just pointing out a potential parallel system that probably explains why the numbers are so big and potentially unwieldy with so little effort to combat them during the beta test.

To some people - nothing.
To others, they see "I have to spend 5000 points building a character and need to manipulating aspects that are worth 100 or 50 or 10 or 500 points? Too much math, too much hard work". I've seen players get up and leave during character creation because of the time it was taking and the math involved. Minimal was still too much.

A points based system should be simple....if nothing else, a 50 point system with every value in the creation section divided by 100 would be more welcoming but really, if you are going to implement a points based system, then you should do it properly.

AToW has plenty of good ideas and it is a fully built RPG...but so much of it is simply - IMO - half baked and needs refining and improving.

Now, I have my own ideas about what makes a good system.
I like detailed characters but I prefer simple mechanics.
I like knowing what my character can do, and how good he is, but I prefer not to have to fiddle around with modifiers. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. But overall, they are great for the board game but in an RPG, figuring out every last +1 is not something I find myself interested in while playing. It is enough for me to know if an action is easy or difficult or impossible.

So those will colour my opinions.

But the Points based system as presented in AToW is - IMO - flawed. It is, in its own way, better than the LifePath system...which again, has its own advantages...but it is built as an adjunct to the LP system rather than a Character Creation system in its own right and therefore it contains some of the flaws of the LP system

5000 points for a character build is going to be intimidating to some players and that isn't what you want. I don't think it's what the game should be aiming for. It screams "MATH" and players can, will and have dropped the game as a result.

AToW has a lot going for it....but at the same time there is just so much in there that should be dropped or rewritten.

Destiny? Destinys character generation system is much better, much faster. It makes things too simple, IMO, but it is a streamlined system that works well and could be adapted for use in AToW.

Still have no plans to play the game...I've read the system and I really don't like it...but the chargen model is an improvement over AToWs

Paul did make an interesting point a while back in a similar discussion about the desire for XP to be just XP and desired pace of advancement basically demanding the numbers be that big.

I think with a little work dividing by 10 probably would be fine so that you can still give out 1-5 xp and still have it mean something but not be too rapid of advancement.  Especially if you re-worked the traits that do change the math of how much xp it takes to increase a skill.

Talen5000

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #879 on: 06 February 2020, 17:20:32 »
I think with a little work dividing by 10 probably would be fine so that you can still give out 1-5 xp and still have it mean something but not be too rapid of advancement.  Especially if you re-worked the traits that do change the math of how much xp it takes to increase a skill.

Whatever works.

I did a little rewrite to see what was possible and attached it to a previous post, but the Destiny system alone shows that a point based system can work. The systems in MW2&3 and AToW also show that. They are more compact, yet can deliver the character and characteristics needed by a game. And they take less time and much less of a page count to do so. I think the considerations of cutout characters are well founded...but I believe that suitable mechanics can be added/adopted to minimise the risk. If you what to see it as a risk.

I still don't like Destiny unfortunately, but it does have some nice ideas and concepts that, if expanded and refined, could work well in a BT RPG (Yes, I know- Destiny IS a BT RPG). The character generation system needs more depth, the Mech combat needs to be removed, the scale system should be adopted - maybe even expanded because two scales doesn't provide enough granularity to account for knives and bows vs guns and Mech scale weaponry. So Destiny isn't all bad.

But I can say the same for every MW RPG system out there....each has had some good concepts, each has had some bad ones, and each has made enough mistakes that the RPG has never taken off in way the universe deserves. I think Destiny is the wrong path to follow, not least because fragmentation is not a good decision, but I ain't the one in charge.

Using the concept of just copying the AToW points system but dividing by ten could work. 500 point builds does sound better than 5000. 35 points is less intimidating than 350 and two significant figures is easier and less intimidating to manipulate than three.

But at the same time, there are other issues which need to be addressed and if you are going to go to the trouble of re-evaluating the system, why not just write one that is tailor made to a points approach?

I know, I know - if you rewrote and refined everything wrong with ATOW, you're basically going to end up with a different RPG anyway and there is only so much time and effort CGL are willing to expend. I understand that but even so, I would still like to see an RPG written as an RPG and without all the emphasis placed on aspects such as integration with (as in, recreation of) the board game.
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Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #880 on: 06 February 2020, 18:18:21 »
A straight points-based system will inevitably result in cookie cutter characters min-maxed for their assumed role and nothing else.  The life path system avoids that.  The arithmetic is simply that, and relatively easily automated via spreadsheet (I'm not the only one to have done it).

As far as fun, YES.  I find the system immensely enjoyable, and have created many characters with it.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #881 on: 06 February 2020, 19:20:15 »
A straight points-based system will inevitably result in cookie cutter characters min-maxed for their assumed role and nothing else.  The life path system avoids that.  The arithmetic is simply that, and relatively easily automated via spreadsheet (I'm not the only one to have done it).

As far as fun, YES.  I find the system immensely enjoyable, and have created many characters with it.
I've created WAY too many characters using it, and spreadsheets to calculate everything for every era of play. But is that bringing in new players? Old players are great, but eventually they die, or stop playing, or stop buying.

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Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #882 on: 06 February 2020, 19:42:26 »
But how long do the cookie cutter folks last?

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #883 on: 06 February 2020, 19:46:11 »
Just out of curiosity since I'm not well versed in RPGs  - how many other systems have character creation systems similar to AToW? Are they popular?

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monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #884 on: 06 February 2020, 20:09:36 »
Just out of curiosity since I'm not well versed in RPGs  - how many other systems have character creation systems similar to AToW? Are they popular?

The only system that I know of that gets close is the Hero system by Hero games.

While the numbers are far smaller the character creation system is such that you either have a very inefficiently made character or you had to use the app they put together for character creation.

But how long do the cookie cutter folks last?

Cookie cutter or not, even I have to admit if it were not for the fact that I don't mind working with numbers AToW's character creation options are a barrier.  Both module and point buy.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #885 on: 06 February 2020, 20:18:55 »
Hero and GURPS are pretty similar as I recall.  MERP is more complicated, and Role Master even more so.

monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #886 on: 06 February 2020, 20:34:11 »
Oddly I've never played GURPs or even looked at any of the books but somehow I still feel like we should be grateful that we got AToW instead of GURPs.

Also in the interests of full disclosure I don't hold it against AToW that there are so many spreadsheets out there or that they even exist.

As much as it may be apples to oranges the fact that stuff like PCGen and Herolabs exist tells me we shouldn't hold it against any system that there is a computerized aid for character creation out there.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #887 on: 06 February 2020, 20:51:43 »
I, for one, am extremely grateful we didn't get a version of GURPS.  The dice conversion alone would be painful.

Palladium was another pretty complicated system, and I'm glad we ducked that bullet too.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #888 on: 06 February 2020, 22:59:01 »
I've found that my recent Battletech rpg game I'm in using MW2 has been enjoyable and easy enough to understand without getting too fluffy.
Sure system has issues, but it does work.

I've been reading over destiny, i would give it a try.  However, I am not sure how i would like it more so than older systems.  I certainly won't missing MW3/CBT RPG, it was just too hard to get anywhere in that system.  Players / npcs can't really get killed in it.

ATOW while i like them returning to the module system of life paths (while not quite same), i don't like how incredibly LETHAL it is.  Takes too much effort make character to have it easily bumped off.
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Talen5000

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #889 on: 07 February 2020, 01:27:08 »
A straight points-based system will inevitably result in cookie cutter characters min-maxed for their assumed role and nothing else.  The life path system avoids that.  The arithmetic is simply that, and relatively easily automated via spreadsheet (I'm not the only one to have done it).

The key word there is SPREADSHEET.

I should not need a supercomputer in order to play a game. I don't know what else I need to say to suggest that the existing character system - fun and varied as it might be - is ultimately detrimental to the game because it is overly complex, too math intensive, intimidating, requires far too many pages for what it does and takes up too much time.

Yes, it isn't the only aspect of AToW which is flawed. Yes - it can be fun. Yes - you can get used to it. But even leaving aside the horrendous wording and poor layout, new players don't want to play it because it looks overly complex. I don't mind complex characters or stats...I prefer them. But character generation shouldn't require a degree in maths and that's what too many new players see when they pick up the book.

As for cookie cutter builds...I agree with your concern.

However, cookie cutter builds, even with a points based system,  is an issue that can be addressed with other limitations and systems.
Nor, dare I say it, are cookie cutter builds a *major* problem IMO. This is a game, the aim is to have fun, and if players like cookie cutter builds, then let them. But allowing players a free choice of (as an example) secondary skills such as the ability to drive, or knowledge of primitive board games or hobbies such as cooking or stamp collecting, or encouraging the GM to drop that Ace MechWarrior into a manhunt without his BattleMech and let him survive the urban jungle while the police hunt him down like a dog is soon going to encourage him to spend his XPs on new skills. Heck...just point out that he's going to be next to worthless when the game goes onto a footbased setting may work wonders.

But if the issue is that your entire party are Mwchwarriors, then the flaw isn't a cookie cutter build but an unhealthy focus that prioritises a certain type of campaign.

Part of the issue here is also a strength...AToWs lack of focus. With other RPGs, there are limits inherent in the format. In SG1, you are part of a military team exploring new worlds. In D&D you are an adventurer out for gold. In Shadowrun, you are part of a criminal gang.

In ATOW...not so much. A Clan campaign is very different from a House campaign or a pirate campaign. You can be in or out of the military, in or out of Mechs or fighters.

But that comes back to the point I raised earlier - BT RPGs share one major fault. Well...several. But one major flaw that has hamstrung efforts to create an RPG.  And that is the emphasis given towards recreating the board game. Not integrating the boardgame into the RPG, but replacing it. That eats up space, it forces the RPG to embrace a math heavy approach, it ensures compromises in the game design to ensure that players characters can stand there shooting at a 'Mech and somehow take it down.

ATOW is just as guilty - an RPG does not need squad rules, nor does the game need to replicate the board game. It needs a small extra paragraph against perhaps three or four skills.

Gunnery and Piloting become Gunnery and Piloting.
Initiative is a Tactics roll by the unit commander
Morale Checks are made with Leadership (for a team) or willpower (for yourself)
Avoiding heat shutdown is a Reflexes roll
Avoiding pilot damage from heat is a Willpower save
Avoiding physical pilot damage is a Toughness save
And Edge allows you to reroll once per point spent.

It shouldn't require 20 or 30 pages to replicate something that an RPG doesn't need when a sentence or two in the appropriate skill/attribute description will work. Or a few paragraphs in a dedicated section. Destiny is making the same mistake, IMO, but again...steps in the right direction. Just not enough.

But cookie cutter builds can be discouraged either through text or through specifics creation systems which force a players to choose secondary skills to complement his main fields of study. Or the GM can wean a player off them or forbid them. Or use the 20 Questions style system to encourage a player to think about his characters motivations, goals, backstory.

So - I'm still gonna disagree. I see the problem with cookie cutter builds, but I don't think it is as big as problem as you suggest, nor do I believe a LifePath is the one and only route towards fixing it.

You mentioned Palladiums system as overly complicated...I would disagree. While it too has flaws, which I won't go into, a percentage based roll system is something most players can easily understand because "You have X% chance of success, so roll equal to or less" is a concept based on real life. The 2D10 system it uses is simple, and provides a great deal of granularity that AToWs 2D6 system lacks. The stat generation is simply roll 3D6 and add any bonuses, with some slight modifications available depending on the style of campaign you want. The skill system provides a fixed template, with gaps which a player can use to customise his character, including a Secondary skill system.  It is simple, easy to understand and quick.

Although not perfect, Palladiums main problems lie elsewhere. One of those issues is shared by AToW - poor writing and layout.

The key here is to have fun, and have a system that doesn't drive players away through a perception of complexity, deserved or not. ironically perhaps, I think one of the problems with Destiny is that it might be too simple in some ways.

Yeah - I'm never satisfied.

« Last Edit: 07 February 2020, 02:53:38 by Talen5000 »
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Asgo

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #890 on: 07 February 2020, 02:34:31 »
...
But that comes back to the point I raised earlier - BT RPGs share one major fault. One major flaw that has hamstrung efforts to create an RPG.  And that is the emphasis given towards recreating the board game. Not integrating the boardgame into the RPG, but replacing it. That eats up space, it forces the RPG to embrace a math heavy approach, it ensures compromises in the game design to ensure that players characters can stand there shooting at a 'Mech and somehow take it down.
..
I can't speak on how well the various RPG versions did in their implementation of the mech interaction. However, I can promise from a design perspective that a RPG that takes a tabletop wargame for its mech interaction in an almost 1:1 fashion will be definitely flawed - except perhaps if you avoid mech interaction at all cost. ;)
they are just too different in game flow, type, level of detail and perspective to work out well for the RPG derived from it.

and just to have it said, you are concerned about the math heavy approach in the char generation and then you want to use Classic Battletech as mech interaction? that doesn't compute. :P
« Last Edit: 07 February 2020, 03:02:13 by Asgo »

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #891 on: 07 February 2020, 03:31:31 »
One thing I recall that in particular some versions of D&D (particularly 3e) and Palladium is that you have a whole bunch of things that give little bonuses to other things all over the place.  For instance your balance skill if at 5 ranks gives a +2 to tumble and jump will give a boost and so on and in palladium your boxing skill will boost a bunch of different abilities and then you may pick up some other skill that boosts some of those abilities and not others etc like gymnastics.

It is great for the puzzle of making a character and in fact I will say that at least for 3e D&D the most fun I will have is puzzling out a character for fun but it does not help the play experience (oddly many of those really fun to build characters are really boring to play because the system has annoying flaws if you play by the rules) and the arcane rules tend to push people away or annoy people that want to play (despite having fun making a PC I absolutely DESPISE making an NPC in 3e because the amount of work to make monsters or NPCs in that game is not worth the fun you get out of them in a game essentially I prefer every other edition for how their monsters and NPCs work).

So yea I can see why there are people that do not want to deal with spread sheets or character builders when playing a game. 

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #892 on: 07 February 2020, 04:20:19 »
I don't think the number of points is the problem as much as the system itself.  Not every RPG should be Pathfinder or 5e, but there is an argument for making character creation less of the complicated burden that ATOW does. 

For one thing, the system is confusing from the outset. You start out with an XP pool that you divide into other XP pools that you use to buy attribute and skill scores that you don't find the conversion values for until the end of the chapter in a chart that is ludicrously too small for how important it is.

But wait... before you can spend any of your XP on other XP, you first have to spend some of your XP on Universal XP which, even though every character has to go through the step, isn't factored in anywhere before you start spending XP. Why not just start everyone with the Universal XP and lower the recommended XP range to compensate?  Or just add all of those required XP buys into each of the Stage 0 options?  Why add the that additional pointless hoop to jump through?

I like what ATOW was trying to do.  Its a lifepath system without the threat of catastrophic injury from 3rd edition, but its just such a silly, opaque system that turns me off to ever wanting to play.

You forgot the part about spending ##xp on field skill packages to get a xp refund to use later?
I'm sorry when did character creation become "lets do our taxes"

I recently (last week) ran a new AToW campaign and my players hated it.
The group are all familiar with the BTU and had all played in my *modified 2nd ed game.
Complaints
1. Character creation was like doing taxes. (Thats where the comment came from)
2. Characters felt generic and life paths seemed bland and unnecessary. (Even with the modified Academy Paths that Daryk and I created)
3. System was to large and disjointed compared to the relative simplicity of 2nd.
4. And the most important point "it wasn't fun.
P.S. I also tried MechWarrior: Destiny with this group and that was the only good thing they had to say about AToW "well it's was better then MechWarrior: Destiny."

So by request of my players I am going to be moving back to 2nd edition.

* I used some of the modification and new career groups from "https://sites.google.com/site/mechwarrior2ed/home" along with my extended school list I made a few years back (since FASA/FP/CGL never finished them). For those who would like to try them I will be posting them over in the "Fan Designs and Rules" section in a few days/weeks depending on my work schedule. 

Unfortunately this means that I will not be finishing my "AToW Academy Paths" work as the main reason for the work was for this campaign.
For anyone who wants a copy PM me or Daryk (if he is willing) for a copy of the Excel or PDF files and Daryk's proof reading notes.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #893 on: 07 February 2020, 04:37:29 »
I note with amusement that all of the spreadsheets I've seen for AToW are LESS complicated than the D&D 5e sheet my DM gave me to use.  I'll take Pathfinder any day.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #894 on: 07 February 2020, 05:29:46 »
The key word there is SPREADSHEET.

I should not need a supercomputer in order to play a game. I don't know what else I need to say to suggest that the existing character system - fun and varied as it might be - is ultimately detrimental to the game because it is overly complex, too math intensive, intimidating, requires far too many pages for what it does and takes up too much time.
Been say this for a while now. (Funny, I think this is the first time you and I agreed on anything ::))

Yes, it isn't the only aspect of AToW which is flawed. Yes - it can be fun. Yes - you can get used to it. But even leaving aside the horrendous wording and poor layout, new players don't want to play it because it looks overly complex. I don't mind complex characters or stats...I prefer them. But character generation shouldn't require a degree in maths and that's what too many new players see when they pick up the book.
People tend to forget that perception creates the first opinion. If a players first perception of the game is there is to much hard to understand or in some cases "pointless" math (looking at you field skills) then you are going to be hard pressed to change their minds. That's to we agree on, starting to think it's a full moon or something.

As for cookie cutter builds...I agree with your concern.

However, cookie cutter builds, even with a points based system,  is an issue that can be addressed with other limitations and systems.
Nor, dare I say it, are cookie cutter builds a *major* problem IMO. This is a game, the aim is to have fun, and if players like cookie cutter builds, then let them. But allowing players a free choice of (as an example) secondary skills such as the ability to drive, or knowledge of primitive board games or hobbies such as cooking or stamp collecting, or encouraging the GM to drop that Ace MechWarrior into a manhunt without his BattleMech and let him survive the urban jungle while the police hunt him down like a dog is soon going to encourage him to spend his XPs on new skills. Heck...just point out that he's going to be next to worthless when the game goes onto a footbased setting may work wonders.

But if the issue is that your entire party are Mechwarriors, then the flaw isn't a cookie cutter build but an unhealthy focus that prioritises a certain type of campaign.

Part of the issue here is also a strength...AToWs lack of focus. With other RPGs, there are limits inherent in the format. In SG1, you are part of a military team exploring new worlds. In D&D you are an adventurer out for gold. In Shadowrun, you are part of a criminal gang.

In ATOW...not so much. A Clan campaign is very different from a House campaign or a pirate campaign. You can be in or out of the military, in or out of Mechs or fighters.
And there lies the root of the problem. AToW and MechWarrior: Destiny to a lesser extent try to be everything to everybody.
But the fault doen't lie with the RPG, it's the universe that is the issues.

But that comes back to the point I raised earlier - BT RPGs share one major fault. Well...several. But one major flaw that has hamstrung efforts to create an RPG.  And that is the emphasis given towards recreating the board game. Not integrating the boardgame into the RPG, but replacing it. That eats up space, it forces the RPG to embrace a math heavy approach, it ensures compromises in the game design to ensure that players characters can stand there shooting at a 'Mech and somehow take it down.

ATOW is just as guilty - an RPG does not need squad rules, nor does the game need to replicate the board game. It needs a small extra paragraph against perhaps three or four skills.

Gunnery and Piloting become Gunnery and Piloting.
Initiative is a Tactics roll by the unit commander
Morale Checks are made with Leadership (for a team) or willpower (for yourself)
Avoiding heat shutdown is a Reflexes roll
Avoiding pilot damage from heat is a Willpower save
Avoiding physical pilot damage is a Toughness save
And Edge allows you to reroll once per point spent.

It shouldn't require 20 or 30 pages to replicate something that an RPG doesn't need when a sentence or two in the appropriate skill/attribute description will work. Or a few paragraphs in a dedicated section. Destiny is making the same mistake, IMO, but again...steps in the right direction. Just not enough.
Finally, something we disagree on. Was starting to think I was in a parallel universe or something ;D
The problem here is that Mechs/aerospace fighters pilots are the cornerstone of the BTU. Like it or not this is what "most" players are here to play, and if you just brush them off as a one paragraph conversion then you are doing the BTU a grave disservice.

But cookie cutter builds can be discouraged either through text or through specifics creation systems which force a players to choose secondary skills to complement his main fields of study. Or the GM can wean a player off them or forbid them. Or use the 20 Questions style system to encourage a player to think about his characters motivations, goals, backstory.

So - I'm still gonna disagree. I see the problem with cookie cutter builds, but I don't think it is as big as problem as you suggest, nor do I believe a LifePath is the one and only route towards fixing it.
The life path system was a noble idea that failed. It happens sometimes.
But I will say that 20 Questions style system are not a fix either. L5R tried this and it failed. It created a system where the players where forced to make choices for their characters that they did not want to make and forced them to take skills/advantaged/disadvantages that they didn't want, and created a system where the only way to balance it was to make everything carbon copies of each other with slightly different bonus.
You know what, there is a system that has been working for thirty years. It's called the priority system.

You mentioned Palladiums system as overly complicated...I would disagree. While it too has flaws, which I won't go into, a percentage based roll system is something most players can easily understand because "You have X% chance of success, so roll equal to or less" is a concept based on real life. The 2D10 system it uses is simple, and provides a great deal of granularity that AToWs 2D6 system lacks. The stat generation is simply roll 3D6 and add any bonuses, with some slight modifications available depending on the style of campaign you want. The skill system provides a fixed template, with gaps which a player can use to customise his character, including a Secondary skill system.  It is simple, easy to understand and quick.

Although not perfect, Palladiums main problems lie elsewhere. One of those issues is shared by AToW - poor writing and layout.
I hear this all the time that 2d6 is an issue. The truth is that it works just fine if the game system is properly setup for it to work.
It all comes down to how the system uses the dice.
For example 2d6 and 3d6 are not all that different both are simple bell curves, all 3d6 adds a few more results and raises the lowest roll by one.
2d6 vs 2d10 is not much different both are simple bell curves with 2d10 having a large curve.

The simple fact is all you are doing by adding more dice or changing the size is widening the curve, and adding more odds calculations that are not truly needed. 2D6 works fine if you have a proper bonus/penalty system in place. Which IMHO 2nd edition had.
 
The key here is to have fun, and have a system that doesn't drive players away through a perception of complexity, deserved or not. ironically perhaps, I think one of the problems with Destiny is that it might be too simple in some ways.
Again the problem that "All" RPGs have is that everyone has fun differently. The task is finding a way for the most people to have the most fun for the most time.

Yeah - I'm never satisfied.
That has never been in doubt  >:D

Dr. Banzai

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #895 on: 07 February 2020, 07:11:26 »
Cookie cutter builds are good for new players. You don't drop someone who has never played a D&D game into an adventure with a rogue/wizard assassin, you give them the high-strength fighter with a big sword.
« Last Edit: 07 February 2020, 07:18:54 by Dr. Banzai »

I am not the Dr. Banzai from Facebook/Youtube. That person is a hateful person that does not represent the spirit of Buckaroo Banzai nor its fandom.

Talen5000

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #896 on: 07 February 2020, 09:44:18 »
and just to have it said, you are concerned about the math heavy approach in the char generation and then you want to use Classic Battletech as mech interaction? that doesn't compute. :P

Not quite...

I am of the opinion that rather than spend so much effort and page count replicating the board game, the RPG should instead include a vehicle combat system, of which Mech combat could be one aspect.

A simplified Mech combat system. However, I am also of the opinion that Mech scale combat is beyond the scope of an RPG and that most if not all Mech-RPG interaction can be handled using the board game. The skill integration I suggested would simply allow RPG skills snd saves to be used in that environment.

But I would not advocate running a full scale battle using RPG rules, nor do I see the need or value to have the RPG incorporate Squad Commander or BattleTroops. RPGs don'y need rules for running a squad or rules that duplicate the board game.
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #897 on: 07 February 2020, 10:06:30 »
Would have using Alpha Strike in place of Destiny's Mech combat system had worked better for better integration for new players?
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #898 on: 07 February 2020, 10:10:04 »
Would have using Alpha Strike in place of Destiny's Mech combat system had worked better for better integration for new players?

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Talen5000

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #899 on: 07 February 2020, 10:28:49 »
The problem here is that Mechs/aerospace fighters pilots are the cornerstone of the BTU. Like it or not this is what "most" players are here to play, and if you just brush them off as a one paragraph conversion then you are doing the BTU a grave disservice.

The question then is what do you want from the RPG?

If it is just to create a Mechwarrior with a name and history, you may as well just scrap tbe RPG entirely. There is no point in CGL wasting time and resources and no need for the RPG to waste fifty pages recreating what the board game already does.

Integrate the board game, yes.
Effectively rewrite Total Warfare and include it within the RPG book? No.

Yes, I realise that is hyperbole but it isn't much of an exaggeration. Look at the combat rules and you see rules for squads and efforts made that spend 40 or 50 pages recreating the board game and various aspects of it.

And none of it is needed, nor...for an RPG...is it even desirable to include it.

For what takes place inside a cockpit, we have the board game. The RPGs focus should be on what goes on outside the cockpit. Mixing the two is what BT RPGs have always done but it is a decision which, IMO, has always caused problems.

I understand most campaigns will tend towards the militaristic, but an RPG is not a table top mecha game. There is a much different focus and if one wants to engage in Mech combat, one should be directed to use the board game for all bit the simplest of interactions.

Fifty pages of needless rules that could have been better spent on a more developed vehicle combat system and a few paragraphs on how player skills could be used within the board game.

That is what I think is wrong.

If you are going to write and develop an RPG, then I feel you should write and develop an RPG...AS  an RPG.

Not recreate the board game with a slightly different focus. Large scale Mech battles, squad based combat, and the like are all aspects that do not belong within an RPG ruleset.


Quote
But I will say that 20 Questions style system are not a fix either
You know what, there is a system that has been working for thirty years. It's called the priority system.

Yes...and I mentioned it as one possibility.
The Twenty Question approach is simple to implement, flexible and shouldn't be seen as a straightjacket but more as a way to get the player to visualise his character, attitudes, beliefs, ook and backstory and get him to build a character around that. It can be as detailed or as simple as the player wants

But ultimately, it would depend on how much work you are willing .to spend rewriting or replacing the LifePath system.

Quote
I hear this all the time that 2d6 is an issue. The truth is that it works just fine if the game system is properly setup for it to work.

It works just fine....but 2D6 doesn't offer the granularity or predictability that other systems bring, including variabilities in the value of certain modifiers. A +1 to the roll may be very good or near meaningless.

It can work...but other systems can be better.

Quote
It all comes down to how the system uses the dice.
For example 2d6 and 3d6 are not all that different both are simple bell curves, all 3d6 adds a few more results and raises the lowest roll by one.
2d6 vs 2d10 is not much different both are simple bell curves with 2d10 having a large curve.

2D6 gives you 36 results.
2D10 gives you 100 results
3D6 gives you 216 results.

Yes...you can argue the results all give bell curves, but those for 2D10 and 3D6 are much flatter than that for 2D6.

The game is already stretching the limits of what can be done with 2D6. That a 2D6 system can work does not mean other systems aren't better.

But this discussion is (again) moving away from Destiny.

I can only hope my.opinion of Destiny is wrong  and that it will be a huge success
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