Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion  (Read 10266 times)

GreekFire

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'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« on: 20 June 2020, 14:50:29 »
From Technical Readout:3060

Clan Hell's Horses, from their baptism in fire during Operation:Klondike through to the modern era, has always nurtured and embraced their part as the combined arms Clan. With multitudes of vehicle and infantry designs attributed to Clan, along with the later addition of ProtoMechs and Quadvees, the Hell's Horses would always have a flexible corps of units suited for multiple roles. These conventional assets would, of course, not remove the necessity of BattleMechs from the Horse Touman, although they would encourage the development of certain designs that would be anathema to the Clan's Homeworld peers. This brings me to the 'Mech that we'll be taking a look at today: the Thunder Stallion, an Assault BattleMech requested by local forum-goer and combined-arms superstar Kojak.

With its development in 2850, towards the beginning of the Clan Golden Century, it seems fitting to cover the Thunder Stallion with the upcoming release of the era's synonymous Technical Readout. As one of the Hell's Horses' earliest Clan-tech designs, it ties into early endeavors at Clan symbology by being an attempt to create a "Totem" design for the Clan. However, with poor showings from the earliest ventures at Totem 'Mechs (the Mandrill and Fire Scorpion) putting an end to this short-lived fad, the Horses would largely redesign the visual aesthetics of their new design to distance themselves from the unpopular Totem trend. Even so, this did not help endear the design to the Clan's 'MechWarriors; the Thunder Stallion would remain an unpopular and disliked ride for most of those assigned to it.

The role and capabilities of the design itself would play a key role in its unpopularity. Although massing a respectable 85 tons, with a standard engine giving it a top speed of 54 kph (3/5 movement) in an era where heavy cavalry speeds were not yet the norm, it was the weaponry and configuration of the 'Mech that would mainly relegate it to support roles. Mounting four LRM-15 racks fed by a total of eight tons of ammo for nearly three minutes of continuous firepower (AKA, 16 rounds per launcher), the Thunder Stallion would be able to muster respectable - albeit scattered - ranged damage. A single LB-20-X autocannon with two tons of ammo would act as a close-ranged complement, often fielded with a ton of both cluster and slug rounds. Armor would be generously layered onto the chassis, with the design carrying the chassis' structural maximum of 17.5 tons of standard armor plate (279 points). Fourteen double heat sinks would allow the 'Mech to fire its full array of firepower, run, and remain cool.

Why does this translate into a design better suited for support work rather than 'Mech-on-'Mech combat?0
  • Firstly, the fact that the Thunder Stallion is a quad. Opposing 'Mechs can easily slip into blind spots on this slower design, forcing the 'Mech to have some sort supporting elements to cover its main weakness.
  • Secondly, although its ranged firepower is respectable, it suffers from an inability to reliably punch holes at range. Against contemporaries from the same era—such as the Supernova, Warhammer IIC, or Wakazashi—its scattered missiles would not deal the raw damage other designs throwing out much larger damage blocks could do.
  • Thirdly, the Thunder Stallion's armor distribution. A flaw suffered by many quad designs, the side torsos of this 'Mech has a 20/16 front/rear armor layout. When facing traditional 'Mech opponents, this makes the Stallion much more vulnerable to incoming firepower, doubly so when considering its weakness to side torso criticals.

These individual limitations combine together to create a design that performs better when combined with better ranged holepunchers (such as the Athena), spotters for indirect firepower (such as the Epona or Asshur), or as a means to support slower infantry (such as Elementals). A Thunder Stallion used in this way can rely on its thick hide to deal with backstabbing flankers or opposing Battle Armor, with its large number of damage blocks and LB-X cluster rounds performing admirably in this supporting role.

The Thunder Stallion would receive its first variant in 2877. A rather straightforward modification, the 'Fire Stallion' replaces its secondary LB-X with two Large Pulse Lasers and two additional Double Heat Sinks. With better mid-ranged firepower and more accuracy against lighter targets, I'm personally fonder of this design. It offers greater battlefield longevity and a bit more redundancy in terms of weaponry. As it does run a bit hotter, personal player preference between the Standard and 2 might boil down to whether the 'Mech is often used at short range, against slower targets, or at longer ranges against quicker targets.

The third (and final) variant would appear in 3069—in time for the Clan's invasion of the Inner Sphere and the conquest of Clan Wolf's Periphery holdings. Going the opposite route from the 'Fire Stallion' the 3 would instead replace all four LRM-15s with a single HAG-40, fed by a generous 6 tons of ammunition (for 18 rounds of firepower). This would also free up enough weight for another ton of LB-X ammo, an ECM Suite mounted in the head, and a tertiary weapon system in a single center torso-mounted ER Medium Laser. Due to the heavy weight of the HAG, heat sinks are reduced to 11 Doubles, though the lowered heat output of the HAG vs the LRMs means that this variant runs just as cool as the standard model.

As more of a direct combat variant, the HAG's increased range is welcome, while its multi-use nature allows the Thunder Stallion 3 to be a credible anti-air threat. Of course, it also means that this variant works best at ranges under 360 meters (12 hexes), where its HAG is at its greatest effectiveness and its LB-X can come into play. This is much more of an all-or-nothing variant in terms of raw damage, while its reliance on a large HAG in an already-vulnerable side torso increases the preexisting weakness to side torso criticals. Personally, I prefer the flexibility and increased durability afforded by the standard design.

~ ~ ~

How to use one? At range, or indirectly if possible. Use its heavy armor to keep it alive if it finds itself targeted by artillery, LRM counterfire, or flankers, and only bring it into direct-fire play once most of the LRM ammunition is expended. Don't close too quickly with one, as it can often find itself outmaneuvered at short range, and always use it with friends. It can also find use as a damage magnet for more fragile partners, although be well aware of its limitations. It's also worth bringing a few tons of alternate munitions for the LRMs; with four launchers, the Thunder Stallion can quickly spread a potent minefield onto a key location of a map, giving it some more battlefield utility. How do you counter one? Aim for the side torsos and flank it. Moving into either the left or right side torso blind spot is one of the best moves you can make against a Thunder Stallion, where all it takes is three Clan ER Medium or Medium Pulse Laser hits to start going internal.

So there you have it: a semi-Totem 'Mech in an era where they were falling out of favor, filling a role that was also nearing obsolescence in Clan space. It should come to no surprise that the design is not widespread throughout the Clans, although the Ghost Bears and Goliath Scorpions do find themselves with more than a few during the Civil War and Jihad eras; most likely salvaged in combat either during the Horse's temporary occupation of three Spheroid planets (for the Bears) or during the heavy fighting on Tokasha (for the Scorpions). It's interesting to note that the early Golden Century fad of designing Totem 'Mechs reignited with a vengeance by the Dark Age, with nearly every Spheroid Clan fielding designs reminiscent of their Totem animal. With the Horses themselves producing the Svartalfa, Buraq, and Balius, it wouldn't surprise me to see a refitting and resurgence in old Thunder Stallions, perhaps even giving them updated aesthetics to bring greater pride to the Hell's Horses MechWarriors piloting them.

~ ~ ~

Iron Wind Metals: https://store.ironwindmetals.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=4817&osCsid=jrui03qpe5scruni3478077j53
Camospecs: http://camospecs.com/IWM/Details/87/thunder-stallion
Master Unit List: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3224/thunder-stallion-standard
« Last Edit: 22 June 2020, 00:40:09 by GreekFire »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #1 on: 20 June 2020, 18:10:50 »
I've only ever used the 3, and that was in a Star v Star game with honor rules being thrown out.  Running it with an Athena about six hexes behind it worked wonders and it shredded a number of smaller mechs.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #2 on: 20 June 2020, 18:33:54 »
I am ashamed to admit that, while I might have read it's name a few times, I never considered this mech or contemplate its existence.
I might or might not be ashamed about not having done that, though.
On the topic of shame, no jump jet variant. Or one with modern armour. Say, hardened. Out of its time, I suppose.
Still, good article.  :thumbsup:
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GreekFire

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #3 on: 20 June 2020, 19:45:48 »
I am ashamed to admit that, while I might have read it's name a few times, I never considered this mech or contemplate its existence.

Yeah, don't worry about that one. I'd barely ever played with it until I saw it requested in the MotW thread.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #4 on: 20 June 2020, 20:06:50 »

Quad vulnerabilities aside (quads are almost always better as bipeds), the Stallion is a pretty solid option in the fire support role.  It’s BV2 is slightly to a lot cheaper than comparable Clan fire support mechs like the Nova Cat B and Night Gyr D.  The Stallion even beats the supposedly cheapo Blood Kite by almost 400 BV2 while throwing 33% more LRMs.

Unlike these designs, the Stallion carries its own “bodyguard” in the form of its LB 20-X.  So although it does have quad vulnerabilities, it still doesn’t need a dedicated bodyguard like many Spheroid missile boats.  An upgrade path in the modern era would be the addition of a turret for the LB 20-X (or whatever the Stallion is using as its “bodyguard” weapon) so the Stallion can threaten fast movers from any direction.

Any conversation about a quad mech is incomplete without noting the hull-down and crab-walk options.  The former will be most valuable in the Stallion’s fire support role, allowing it to avoid a certain fraction of counter-fire.  And although the Stallion is no fast mover, crab-walking will allow it to reposition, retreat, or chase a little better than other 3/5 assaults.

The Stallion 2 is as solid as the original as long as you’re willing to pay an extra 300 BV2 for the pulse lasers.  I’d argue that the Stallion 3 is inferior to the other two except in the anti-air role.

Not sure it can fit, but it would be interesting to see the Stallion’s 2nd line fire support capability migrate to a new Horse quadvee design.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #5 on: 21 June 2020, 19:24:09 »
I've taken the Thunder Stallion a few times when going for a Horses' themed unit. You get exactly what you see. I think I prefer the "Fire Stallion" variant simply because the LPLs seem to match up better with the LRMs.

The quad aspect can be troublesome, but hopefully the Horses are sticking together and you've got some combined arms to help hinder any that try to flank.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #6 on: 21 June 2020, 23:15:47 »
Not sure it can fit, but it would be interesting to see the Stallion’s 2nd line fire support capability migrate to a new Horse quadvee design.
Well, there's a few existing variations to choose from. The Harpagos has direct fire support in a pair of Gauss Rifles. The Boreas B has a Streak LRM20 rack and the C has an ATM12. The Notos B has a pair of LRM15 racks. So it's possible, just not here yet.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #7 on: 22 June 2020, 01:00:02 »
As a Horses player, I think people tend to overlook the Thunder/Fire Stallion, but I will say this: if you can get this thing into the right position in a defensive scenario, which is to say a woods hex behind partial cover and with good LOS, the Stallion goes from basically solid to an absolute monster.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #8 on: 22 June 2020, 01:02:20 »
Also, you know what pairs really nicely with these? Minotaurs. A Point of Minotaurs will go a long way towards keeping flankers honest.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #9 on: 22 June 2020, 03:48:04 »
At first I thought "Yeah, right, putting the mech in a perfect defensive position with a pair of protomechs to guard it would make any mech good", but on consideration of its price, you can probably afford that for the price of a heavy cavalry mech.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #10 on: 22 June 2020, 08:38:42 »
Yeah, a well-placed Thunder Stallion with some light escorts sounds like the perfect anchor point you can pivot a Binary or Trinary around. It's one of the few times where I'd advocate putting a slow unit like that in a Star of otherwise much faster machines.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #11 on: 22 June 2020, 12:46:31 »
Yeah, a well-placed Thunder Stallion with some light escorts sounds like the perfect anchor point you can pivot a Binary or Trinary around. It's one of the few times where I'd advocate putting a slow unit like that in a Star of otherwise much faster machines.
Something like: Balius D, Parash, a point of Notos Prime, a point of Svartafla 2, and a Thunder Stallion?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #12 on: 22 June 2020, 14:49:43 »
Something like: Balius D, Parash, a point of Notos Prime, a point of Svartafla 2, and a Thunder Stallion?
I think the pair Minotaurs are the best fit as body guards.  2 Clan erMlas is enough to keep any light flanker honest. Fill out the other 3 slots in the proto point with either fast spotters for IDF, or since I'm thinking 3150's and later, is there any reason you can't toss semi-guided from Clan launchers?  If you can, bring a proto with tag.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #13 on: 23 June 2020, 16:12:53 »
At first I thought "Yeah, right, putting the mech in a perfect defensive position with a pair of protomechs to guard it would make any mech good", but on consideration of its price, you can probably afford that for the price of a heavy cavalry mech.

Everyone always forgets the squat.

Standard quad rules. Find trees. Squat. That is the difference between a Thunderstallion and any other Mech. Adds a +1 defensively at minimal cost.

Used a Thunderstallion to take down a custom Summoner of equal BV once. It was fun putting mobility against camping. But it really showed the limitations of the armor and quad structure.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #14 on: 23 June 2020, 17:08:56 »
Don't you need partial cover to go hull down?  (Assuming that that's what you're talking about and you're not making an off-color joke.)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #15 on: 23 June 2020, 18:55:18 »
I would love to see a version with a turret.  The Thunder Stallion is a great fire support mech with a giant cannon added on to make an armored target go away. It reminds me of a Mech Quad version of the Von Luckner, just with more LRMs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #16 on: 23 June 2020, 19:04:53 »
Don't you need partial cover to go hull down?  (Assuming that that's what you're talking about and you're not making an off-color joke.)

Quads suffer no penalties to shooting while prone.  Shooting at a prone, non-adjacent target is a +1 penalty.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #17 on: 23 June 2020, 19:47:32 »
I would love to see a version with a turret.  The Thunder Stallion is a great fire support mech with a giant cannon added on to make an armored target go away. It reminds me of a Mech Quad version of the Von Luckner, just with more LRMs.

TBH I'm pretty stunned the Thunder Stallion didn't get the Directional Torso Mount (all) quirk.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #18 on: 23 June 2020, 20:12:22 »
Quads suffer no penalties to shooting while prone.  Shooting at a prone, non-adjacent target is a +1 penalty.

Oh right, that rule.  I keep forgetting that about quads since they're so rarely played in my group.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #19 on: 23 June 2020, 20:54:56 »
TBH I'm pretty stunned the Thunder Stallion didn't get the Directional Torso Mount (all) quirk.

Cramped Cockpit is kind of a lame offering of quirks...

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #20 on: 24 June 2020, 09:24:57 »
Don't you need partial cover to go hull down?  (Assuming that that's what you're talking about and you're not making an off-color joke.)
You don't need partial cover to go hull down but if you don't have said partial cover, you don't gain any benefits.  TO page 21 says that a hull down quad, with partial cover gets  +2 on top of the +1 for partial cover. 

Also, regular mechs can "take a knee" behind partial cover for the same benefit, but taking a PSR upon standing.
TBH I'm pretty stunned the Thunder Stallion didn't get the Directional Torso Mount (all) quirk.
I'm a bit surprised that didn't end up on a LOT more quads as of BMM.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #21 on: 25 June 2020, 11:24:43 »
At first I thought "Yeah, right, putting the mech in a perfect defensive position with a pair of protomechs to guard it would make any mech good", but on consideration of its price, you can probably afford that for the price of a heavy cavalry mech.

Or Gnomes, Elementals or most the other BA . . . or infantry, which the Horses would have been using when this thing rolled out- Novas instead of Stars.

One other thing to consider, while this might not be something really stand out among the Clans but consider how much someone in the IS would love to get one of these as a fire support platform with all the LRMs it can throw as a quad.  SharkFoxes could probably sell this easier than that Stalking Spider II.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #22 on: 25 June 2020, 12:24:31 »
Especially if they offer the Fire Stallion, which has the niceties of Clan LPLs and no ammunition in the head.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #23 on: 25 June 2020, 17:28:39 »
True, customers at all ages would probably prefer the LPLs because they are just more improved over their IS counterparts than the LBX is.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #24 on: 26 June 2020, 00:08:54 »
I hate to admit it, but i guess this is what peak quad performance looks like. a go-kart with legs carrying an old washing machine basket.

i Really hate to admit it..........
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #25 on: 04 July 2020, 12:31:38 »
You don't need partial cover to go hull down but if you don't have said partial cover, you don't gain any benefits.  TO page 21 says that a hull down quad, with partial cover gets  +2 on top of the +1 for partial cover. 

Also, regular mechs can "take a knee" behind partial cover for the same benefit, but taking a PSR upon standing. I'm a bit surprised that didn't end up on a LOT more quads as of BMM.

Ok, so, I'm trying to unwrap all this in my mind (and I'll post here for the benefit of the group)
Quad behind partial cover: +1
Quad squat: +1
Quad squat behind partial cover: +2 total
Quad hull down: is considered going prone, +2 defensive, no offensive modifiers
Quads Hull Down behind partial cover: +3 total, AND can still see over the cover with no offensive modifiers??

OHMIGAWD, I play a LOT of Barghests and I never knew this and whooo, I'mma gonna tear up some cats next time!! :-)

Played the TS a couple of times: they seem to work well, but they draw so much fire they're usually the first things dead.  I don't know if its because the mini weighs about a half-ton and looks scary with that monster gun sculpt, but people just REALLY HATE having it on the field threatening them!  :D

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #26 on: 04 July 2020, 15:25:07 »
Ok, so, I'm trying to unwrap all this in my mind (and I'll post here for the benefit of the group)
Quad behind partial cover: +1
Quad squat: +1
Quad squat behind partial cover: +2 total
Quad hull down: is considered going prone, +2 defensive, no offensive modifiers
Quads Hull Down behind partial cover: +3 total, AND can still see over the cover with no offensive modifiers??

OHMIGAWD, I play a LOT of Barghests and I never knew this and whooo, I'mma gonna tear up some cats next time!! :-)

Played the TS a couple of times: they seem to work well, but they draw so much fire they're usually the first things dead.  I don't know if its because the mini weighs about a half-ton and looks scary with that monster gun sculpt, but people just REALLY HATE having it on the field threatening them!  :D
Uh, close.  Quad squat in open terrain= nothing
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #27 on: 04 July 2020, 15:53:24 »
think he is using squat for going prone.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #28 on: 04 July 2020, 15:56:53 »
If you go prone, there is no partial cover. You'd be hidden completely by any Level 1 hill, building, etc.
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GreekFire

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Thunder Stallion
« Reply #29 on: 04 July 2020, 16:32:18 »
Ok, so, I'm trying to unwrap all this in my mind (and I'll post here for the benefit of the group)
Quad behind partial cover: +1
Quad squat: +1
Quad squat behind partial cover: +2 total
Quad hull down: is considered going prone, +2 defensive, no offensive modifiers
Quads Hull Down behind partial cover: +3 total, AND can still see over the cover with no offensive modifiers??

Played the TS a couple of times: they seem to work well, but they draw so much fire they're usually the first things dead.  I don't know if its because the mini weighs about a half-ton and looks scary with that monster gun sculpt, but people just REALLY HATE having it on the field threatening them!  :D

Corrections:
Quad prone behind partial cover: out of line of sight, and cannot target other 'mechs
Quad hull down: +0, attacks are resolved the same way as usual

But yeah, hull down behind partial cover is kind of nuts.
« Last Edit: 04 July 2020, 16:34:10 by GreekFire »
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