Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III

[Matti]

or is used for ranged infantry support with a reloading team.

light anti-tank vehicle says Wikipedia. Or: tank destroyer.

[edit]
What comes to modern main battle tanks against Vedette's armour: if weapons don't do it, then ram it >:D

[Kidd]

106mm recoilless rifles were quite popular for a while

106mm on a MUTT


British Army Wombat


The "Thing" of course


And an under-armour option, some US Army XM-something-or-other

[glitterboy2098]

Wombat on a Snow Trac, in Norway

[ANS Kamas P81]

106mm on a MUTT

The terror of Fulda for a while.  The one way the Americans could outproduce tank destroyers enough to turn the Red Army at its peak.  Or just spam enough Davy Crocketts to plug the gap with plutonium.

Light/Medium/Heavy Rifles with their damage values are standard BT heavy weapons by the rules.

Reread the TRO.  Only the largest tank guns for the 1945 era count as Light Rifles.  All the rest are Light/Medium Recoilless Rifles, which are from the BT infantry section.  Basically the point is "all the modern stuff dies horribly and the mechs wonder what the 'thunk' noise was" as an end result.

Meanwhile, something that happened A LOT with these poor glorious monsters.

[kato]

The terror of Fulda for a while.  The one way the Americans could outproduce tank destroyers enough to turn the Red Army at its peak.

Germany just did it like this:





Sorta the German answer to the BMP. Just stick a 106mm recoilless rifle on those HS30 APCs. One 106mm in each mech inf platoon. Turreted gun on those is 20mm.

Casemate tanks in the background in the second pic are Kanonenjagdpanzer. 90mm gun. Each mech inf batallion would have eight of those in two anti-tank platoons. Both those and the 106mm on HS30 were introduced at the same time in 1966, the same year the Soviets introduced the BMP-1.

Those pictures were taken in 1970, the same year the HS30 were replaced - only four years after the above modification. Base HS30 were replaced with Marder, the 106mm with Milan ATGM. The Kanonenjagdpanzer were moved to dedicated anti-tank battalions with infantry divisions and later - in the 80s - moved to serve as infantry fire support in individual 7-tank platoons supporting territorial army infantry regiments.

While there were 106mm on Munga jeeps for light infantry at some point, they were replaced even earlier - starting in the early 60s. Original trials were for Munga jeeps with SS.20 ATGM, what was later introduced was a platoon of Cobra ATGM for every light and medium infantry battalion. That freed up the 106mm for mounting on the HS30 instead.

[Kidd]

@Kato - verrrry nice. The early Cold War stuff is fascinating in how far removed they are technologically from the late 80s gear. Always liked the retro look of the HS30.

[Feenix74]

Also not quite armoured, nor fighting, nor vehicle, but interesting kit nonetheless... a field kitchen!

A fancier modern version of the mobile field kitchen:



Army cooks are "fitters and turners" (aka "machinists") - the fit perfectly good food into pots and turn it into . . .

[kato]

@Kato - verrrry nice. The early Cold War stuff is fascinating in how far removed they are technologically from the late 80s gear. Always liked the retro look of the HS30.

Marders with the same unit (!) only two years later:



Note that these original Marders still had the rather futuristic looking remote-control MG setup on the back deck, as well as the gun ports on their sides for the troops to fire through. The remote-control MG was removed with the A2 upgrade around 1984 (for more armour on the roof of the back deck), the gun ports with the A3 upgrade around 1988 (for more armour on the sides).

The quirky looking boxes on the turret are dual white/IR searchlights, which still strongly show the 1970s heritage of the whole system. They were replaced by a IR sight for the gunner in the A2 upgrade.

[Simon Landmine]

What always gets me about the early Cold War APCs is the way it always looks as if the troops are being squeezed out of the top hatches.

[glitterboy2098]

Also not quite armoured, nor fighting, nor vehicle, but interesting kit nonetheless... a field kitchen!

A fancier modern version of the mobile field kitchen:



Army cooks are "fitters and turners" (aka "machinists") - the fit perfectly good food into pots and turn it into . . .

i beleive that first one is configured for the heating of modern B-ration's.. basically MRE's on a large scale.
the latter one i suspect is more like a foodtruck style set up for making fresher food.

[Kidd]

i beleive that first one is configured for the heating of modern B-ration's.. basically MRE's on a large scale.
the latter one i suspect is more like a foodtruck style set up for making fresher food.

Nope, full A-ration capability it seems. Check out a brief writeup and more pics below.

https://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/09/12/the-amazing-disaster-relief-equipment-of-japans-self-defense-force/

[Daryk]

I agree with that article: "And it is awesome." O0

[kato]

You just made me watch videos about the German Tactical Field Kitchen 250.

And it actually explained how regardless of whether you can use it to actually cook in all kinds of ways, at least in regular army service you can forget about the pretty pictures of food that Kärcher advertises them with - everything that comes out of it is effectively freezedried feed mixed with just the right amount of hot water.

TFK250 being used in Kosovo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmSD0lYVk_0

(audio in German, it's basically just a sliiiightly sarcastic commentary on what you see there)

Shorter video on training Kurdish Peshmerga with a TFK250 - this time with actual fresh food:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRNAVQ2ykig

[Daryk]

I have to wonder... why do I find the random Bundeswehr videos so much more entertaining than the American ones?  :D

[bluedragon7]

Germans are known for their humorous and entertaining nature?;-)

[kato]

I personally like what the French Ministry of Defense puts on Youtube. And the French Army. Behold: The Secrets of Fabricating Military Socks.

More seriously though, in particular their Journal de la Defense series is great.

The Army, for Bastille Day, did a rather nice series of short videos presenting army equipment - see this playlist. They can even be funny, see e.g. here. ;)
Seriously, those are some of the best such videos i've seen on military equipment - having the soldiers that serve on them do a professional walkaround explaining about everything interesting about it in 90 seconds.

[Daryk]

Ma français n'est pas trés bien, mais je trouve les videos trés amusé (sans Google).

Very interesting, thanks!  I'll say you're making me miss my SIXTH Fleet days tremendously.  All the more since I just found out I lost the opportunity for orders back there...

[ANS Kamas P81]

I have to wonder... why do I find the random Bundeswehr videos so much more entertaining than the American ones?  :D

Germans are known for their humorous and entertaining nature?;-)

Watch the safety training video "Forklift Operator Klaus" and you will never doubt the (dark, twisted) humor of Germans again.

[Kidd]

You just made me watch videos about the German Tactical Field Kitchen 250.

And it actually explained how regardless of whether you can use it to actually cook in all kinds of ways, at least in regular army service you can forget about the pretty pictures of food that Kärcher advertises them with - everything that comes out of it is effectively freezedried feed mixed with just the right amount of hot water.

TFK250 being used in Kosovo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmSD0lYVk_0

(audio in German, it's basically just a sliiiightly sarcastic commentary on what you see there)

Shorter video on training Kurdish Peshmerga with a TFK250 - this time with actual fresh food:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRNAVQ2ykig

1st video, 3rd cook looks like he's living well  ::)

Yeah I can sort of tell the subtext of the video from the soundtrack  ;D

Watch the safety training video "Forklift Operator Klaus" and you will never doubt the (dark, twisted) humor of Germans again.

dear god, what did I just watch  :D

[Daryk]

This one's pretty funny too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5KLO9kz18

It's a comparison between the Leopard and VW Beetle from 1972...  :D

[bluedragon7]

Watch the safety training video "Forklift Operator Klaus" and you will never doubt the (dark, twisted) humor of Germans again.

My British colleagues are often stunned of my unsuspected dry, dark and twisted jokes despite me showing them that video ;-)

[Baldur Mekorig]

Watch the safety training video "Forklift Operator Klaus" and you will never doubt the (dark, twisted) humor of Germans again.

 I love it. I laughed loudly. I love good splatter comedies like that.  ;D

[Kidd]

With the JLTV program confirmed and underway lots of ideas have come up for kitting out the shooty bits of the US Army's shiny new MRAP:

Rafael Samson remote turret with 30mm cannon and machine gun


Another Rafael offering centers on the Trophy APS system


Boeing proposes its Avenger turret with any 2 combinations of .50-cal machine gun, or 4 anti-tank Hellfire missiles, or 2 AIM-9X Sidewinder SAMs (latter not seen here)



and also a Boeing anti-drone laser and 30mm chain gun combo

....So the question is what real world factions use different formations?

on a tangent to this question - do you guys know of any current real world militaries which use "square" or "base four" battalions, i.e 4 manoeuvre companies to a battalion? not counting weapons/support and HQ elements of course.

[kato]

Rafael Samson remote turret with 30mm cannon and machine gun

It's kinda funny that Orbital ATK is still trying to sell the M230LF chain gun for ground-based applications to the US Army. Various companies - them too - have been unsuccessfully trying that in various derivative versions of the M230 since the 80s.

[I am Belch II]

A very angry Hummv with Hellfire missles.

[ANS Kamas P81]

It's kinda funny that Orbital ATK is still trying to sell the M230LF chain gun for ground-based applications to the US Army. Various companies - them too - have been unsuccessfully trying that in various derivative versions of the M230 since the 80s.

Which is really odd, considering the commonality with the AH-64 and the now decades of proof the thing works just fine.  Even if the Bradleys (and everyone else) keep their Bushmasters, the idea of "Super-HMMWV" (whatever the hell they're gonna call its upgrade/replacement) with 30mm burp guns tickles me to no end. 

[DoctorMonkey]

Which is really odd, considering the commonality with the AH-64 and the now decades of proof the thing works just fine.  Even if the Bradleys (and everyone else) keep their Bushmasters, the idea of "Super-HMMWV" (whatever the hell they're gonna call its upgrade/replacement) with 30mm burp guns tickles me to no end. 

Without a good targeting system, is that really much more use than a lot 40mm automatic grenade launcher and/or .50cal?

[glitterboy2098]

as i understand it, between the need for a lower powered round to keep the recoil within the lightweight mount's tolerances and the way the bursts spread around, it really isn't an improvement over the standard 25mm guns.

[kato]

There's a number of reasons:

• The performance of 30x113B M789 HEDP against armour is virtually the same as 40x53 M430 HEDP.
  
• the lethal radius of the same ammunition as above against soft targets is considerably smaller for the M789 (4m vs 15m) due to the smaller projectile weight (240g vs 350g) and thus explosive load delivered.
• the M230 weighs twice what a Mk19 does, which prohibits tripod or manpack operations dismounted from vehicles.
• the initial procurement cost is considerably higher.
• there is considerably less ammunition variants available in 30x113B (pretty much only HEI and HEDP) whereas 40x53-firing systems can also be used for e.g. illumination, smoke, tear gas etc. In particular the lack of airburst ammunition is glaring in 30x113B.

The straight-up only benefits of the M230 are:

• its direct-fire trajectory at range (which can also be a drawback though depending on operational use - and yes, the Mk19 is used for indirect fire too)
• its higher muzzle velocity imparting more immediate effects (we're talking 2-3 vs 10 seconds for the same range, which is rather significant)

[VhenRa]

on a tangent to this question - do you guys know of any current real world militaries which use "square" or "base four" battalions, i.e 4 manoeuvre companies to a battalion? not counting weapons/support and HQ elements of course.

Prior to the 2016 restructure the US Army's Armored Brigade Combat Teams had their main maneuver battalions consisting of two companies of mech infantry in Bradleys and two companies of Abrams tanks. (The 2016 restructure cut a company from each battalion, with two battalions with 2 tank/1 mech infantry and 1 battalion with 1 tank/2 mech infantry and the spare company of tanks moved over to the cavalry squadron making it a 3 recon troop/1 armored troop squadron).