Author Topic: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151  (Read 15801 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #30 on: 22 May 2020, 09:34:34 »
Despite House Liao's seemingly runaway gains for the last few decades of game time, they actually still haven't even recovered to their initial starting position at the start of the Succession Wars, and the FedSuns still hold some original Liao territory if you compare the maps.  That shows just how much of a punching bag the Confederation was for the writers.  What STL did was to resuscitate a rump state on death's door to something slightly approaching its original territory, and did this reversal of several centuries of loss in his lifetime.  The FedSuns may have lost many systems, but many of these systems were systems they had taken from others. 

If the ilClan were to be like a reset of the Star League, the FedSuns would actually need to lose more systems along its border with the Confederation, though it would regain systems along its border with the Combine.

Huh?  They have CHESTERTON . . . which was NEVER part of the CapCon and they had New Syrtis.  They also have Hegemony worlds they never took before 1SW broke out.  The FS had lost most of the Capellan and Draconis March along with significant portions of the Crucis March before they started pushing back.  The Cappies are at a point they of being the largest in their whole existence between swallowing large chunks of the Capellan March, Republic territory, Andurien worlds and some former League non-aligned worlds.  Throw in the barely described Andurien, Canopian, Capellan (love?) triangle for effective (depending on interpretation) control, and yeah for 15 years the Cappies are at the strongest point they have probably ever been.

We were introduced to the map pre-4SW, that is the starting point for the narrative and everything since is back fill- so starting from that point they had a brief gain in what became the Sarna March, but lost a important world (Quentin) in War of 3039, then the Sarna March in '57 (leaving out Lyran Clan Invasion losses), lost their puppet/buffer state in St Ives in early 60s, lost more worlds to the Dracs and Cappies in the FCCW, gave up more worlds after the Jihad to the Republic . . . and then had both enemies take advantage of the Dark Ages.  Its something like 25+ years of losing territory from the starting point.
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #31 on: 22 May 2020, 11:39:01 »
The Chesterton/Tikonov/New Hessen area was a HUGE win for the CC.  Both in material for war with the factories on Tikonov and New Hessen and the emotional value of Chesterton (which never was able to join the CC it has been part of the FedSuns since 2357--that is 800 years!!!) and Tikonov. 

This Capellan Confederation is the most powerful iteration of the state we've seen since the game's inception, and may well be the most powerful of the five Successor states in 3151. 

Colt Ward

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #32 on: 22 May 2020, 11:58:48 »
I think the Dracs might still edge them, but its close . . . and I am expecting the Dracs to have problems with succession- Yori is dead as soon as she produces an heir, surprised the Warlord has not married her off to a son or ward.  While the Cappies have their own instability in the succession (Daoshen being nutters), Danai is the clear heir.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #33 on: 22 May 2020, 13:15:38 »
Huh?  They have CHESTERTON . . . which was NEVER part of the CapCon and they had New Syrtis.
The Chesterton area is in 3151 the only area the Capellans gained from the Suns compared to 2750. The Sirdar PDZ and much of the border planet's were Capellan in 2750. I agree with you that the map in 3025 is more important for comparing the borders between the Capellans and the Sun's, but he is correct.
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Rainbow 6

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #34 on: 22 May 2020, 16:19:37 »
The Suns took Quentin from the Combine during the Third Succession War. That looks like the only factory world the Combine ever lost to the Suns for more than a couple years.

The Combine lost Marduk to the Suns in the 4th war and have never recovered it.

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #35 on: 22 May 2020, 16:22:42 »
No. The Combine lost Marduk as the 3rd war ended, regained it during the 4th and only lost it again during the post Jihad fall out. Needless to say, they've regained it in the current invasion

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #36 on: 22 May 2020, 16:27:11 »
The Combine lost Marduk to the Suns in the 4th war and have never recovered it.
This is based on 2750 borders. Marduk was Suns territory then.
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Orwell84

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #37 on: 22 May 2020, 16:51:05 »
I think the Dracs might still edge them, but its close . . . and I am expecting the Dracs to have problems with succession- Yori is dead as soon as she produces an heir, surprised the Warlord has not married her off to a son or ward.  While the Cappies have their own instability in the succession (Daoshen being nutters), Danai is the clear heir.

According to FM:3145 the CCAF actually outnumbers the DCMS by a dozen Mech regiments (51 to 39), and the disparity is even greater with the AFFS and RAF. Granted, that says nothing about the quality of the troops in question, but as Blessed Blake once said God marches on the side of the big battalions, and the CCAF appears to at least match their enemies in quality as well.

As to Draconian succession, it's clear throughout Shattered Fortress that Yori's increasingly becoming her own woman. For the moment the two still need each other, but if anything I'd actually expect Toranaga to one day come down with a case of You Have Outlived Your UsefulnessTM, and Yori can keep emulating Elizabeth I and stay childless as long as Toranaga still a threat to her.
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #38 on: 22 May 2020, 16:55:11 »
Really?  I read it as she has been more isolated and Toranaga is still controlling the military and still riding the victories.  The ISF has had some problems b/c of the Cats & Tormark- actually Katana could have been a ally early on but 'her' regiments are long gone with the officers rotting in unmarked graves.  I DO wonder if the Dragoon's change of treatment reflects a power play between Yori and her Gunrei.
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #39 on: 22 May 2020, 17:02:33 »
I mean, she built an entire regiment without Toranaga knowing, which is described as her becoming independent of his control.
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Orwell84

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #40 on: 22 May 2020, 17:19:22 »
Really?  I read it as she has been more isolated and Toranaga is still controlling the military and still riding the victories.  The ISF has had some problems b/c of the Cats & Tormark- actually Katana could have been a ally early on but 'her' regiments are long gone with the officers rotting in unmarked graves.  I DO wonder if the Dragoon's change of treatment reflects a power play between Yori and her Gunrei.

I mean, she built an entire regiment without Toranaga knowing, which is described as her becoming independent of his control.

Did a quick skim-through of Shattered Fortress, and I don't think Yori's as powerless as that. More like she needs Toranaga and does respect him as a capable leader of her armies, but is also making it clear that she is the Combine's ruler and gaining the popular support to back that up.

As mentioned above, the fact Yori raised a whole unit without Toranaga's knowledge indicates she has allies elsewhere, and for all his annoyance with her at times the Kanrei himself still obeys her directives. Of course, unless any fiction comes out we're not seeing into the characters' heads, and things may change if the Combine's fortunes take a turn for the worse. Which I suspect is going to happen when the ilClan era arrives.
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The Third Star League's view of the Succession Wars, plagiarised from an ancient Terran historian's judgement of the Thirty Years War.

Iracundus

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #41 on: 22 May 2020, 18:22:18 »
The Chesterton area is in 3151 the only area the Capellans gained from the Suns compared to 2750. The Sirdar PDZ and much of the border planet's were Capellan in 2750. I agree with you that the map in 3025 is more important for comparing the borders between the Capellans and the Sun's, but he is correct.

I use the 2750 borders because that was the peacetime border and the time right before the start of the wars when all the states were considered roughly on par with each other, and ignoring all the worlds that dropped off the map in the course of the SW. 

Although the Confederation temporarily gained New Syrtis, it has since lost it, and it has gained Chesterton, which while of great symbolic significance to the Confederation, is still ultimately just 1 world.  There is a whole block of worlds up to Quittacas and Stein's Folly that were originally Capellan that are still in FedSuns' hands.  In terms of material resources and value, those worlds add up to more than Chesterton.  As a practical realist, I would prefer those worlds over the single world of Chesterton.  As an aside, the 2750 Confederation border with the FWL has still also not been quite restored in 3151.

In 3025, the universe started with the Confederation already as the boxer on the ropes barely clinging to life (and getting further pounding in 4th SW), and its backstory is almost one of incessant loss.  While the FedSuns had initial 1st SW setbacks, its story since then has been mostly of triumphs or at least steady advances with very little of its original territory ever being lost to anybody by 3025.  If there were to be some form of reset, I would prefer one where all the states ended up more or less equal, and not one where one state is on life support as designated loser while another is the developer anointed winner.  I don't see the Confederation or the Combine truly conquering the Suns, but I don't see the Suns being put back to an equal standing as a bad thing.  If the SW were a foot race, the game started in 3025 with the Suns almost a lap ahead, and the Confederation running in reverse for a lap. 

The Suns have spent the last decades in both game time and real time losing territory because they were built up to be this unstoppable military juggernaut that won whatever it put its mind to before so something had to be done to pare back the gains in order to maintain the setting.  Perhaps STL doing most of the regaining in his lifetime was ham handed writer fiat, but the alternative might have been several centuries of incompetent rulers (like a Suns equivalent of Dainmar Liao?) and mistakes with the Confederation and Combine nibbling away at the Suns.  That alternative could have led to supporters of both sides being dissatisfied.   The craziness of Caleb Davion was another ham handed way of making the Suns stumble that I think could have been done better or more subtly.  The trope of the insane ruler has been used too often IMO for all Houses as the explanation for less than successful rulers. 

As for the Combine, I can easily see a civil war or shadow war between Toranaga and Yori, and this is what gives the Suns a breather or opportunity to regain territory.  Succession crisis/struggle for the throne and digesting conquests for both Combine and Confederation is what I see saving the Suns from total disintegration, even if the Suns don't necessarily regain all lost worlds.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2020, 18:39:24 by Iracundus »

Minemech

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #42 on: 22 May 2020, 18:38:04 »
 Do not underestimate the symbolic import of the Confederation holding Chesterton. Its conquest may have affected morale more than the reclaiming of Liao. I agree that it is shortsighted from a strategic perspective, but the Chancellor needs capital to highlight his Tianming.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2020, 18:39:44 by Minemech »

Iracundus

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #43 on: 22 May 2020, 18:41:18 »
Do not underestimate the symbolic import of the Confederation holding Chesterton. Its conquest may have affected morale more than the reclaiming of Liao. I agree that it is shortsighted from a strategic perspective, but the Chancellor needs capital to highlight his Tianming.

Taking back so many other worlds from Republic and FedSuns would provide that political capital justifying his Mandate of Heaven IMO.

Although the symbolic significance of Chesterton to the Confederation might be of use to the First Prince as a bargaining chip.  Maybe secure an armistice in return for Chesterton?  That would allow the Suns to fight a 1 front war against the Combine, though of course this would open Julian up for criticism for "selling out" the people of Chesterton and embolden critics within his regime.

« Last Edit: 22 May 2020, 18:46:19 by Iracundus »

Minemech

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #44 on: 22 May 2020, 18:50:52 »
Taking back so many other worlds from Republic and FedSuns would provide that political capital justifying his Mandate of Heaven IMO.
To the Confederation, Chesterton has always been a part of the kingdom, a part that has been trampled upon by barbarians. This is unjust. It is up to the Chancellor to restore order as part of his mandate.

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #45 on: 22 May 2020, 19:19:46 »
I use the 2750 borders because that was the peacetime border and the time right before the start of the wars when all the states were considered roughly on par with each other, and ignoring all the worlds that dropped off the map in the course of the SW. 

Although the Confederation temporarily gained New Syrtis, it has since lost it, and it has gained Chesterton, which while of great symbolic significance to the Confederation, is still ultimately just 1 world.  There is a whole block of worlds up to Quittacas and Stein's Folly that were originally Capellan that are still in FedSuns' hands.  In terms of material resources and value, those worlds add up to more than Chesterton.  As a practical realist, I would prefer those worlds over the single world of Chesterton.  As an aside, the 2750 Confederation border with the FWL has still also not been quite restored in 3151.

In 3025, the universe started with the Confederation already as the boxer on the ropes barely clinging to life (and getting further pounding in 4th SW), and its backstory is almost one of incessant loss.  While the FedSuns had initial 1st SW setbacks, its story since then has been mostly of triumphs or at least steady advances with very little of its original territory ever being lost to anybody by 3025.  If there were to be some form of reset, I would prefer one where all the states ended up more or less equal, and not one where one state is on life support as designated loser while another is the developer anointed winner.  I don't see the Confederation or the Combine truly conquering the Suns, but I don't see the Suns being put back to an equal standing as a bad thing.  If the SW were a foot race, the game started in 3025 with the Suns almost a lap ahead, and the Confederation running in reverse for a lap. 

I understand where you are coming from. I'm not going to pretend to agree because I am a Fed Suns fan, but I do understand where you are coming from. But 3025 is, even if I don't care much for the era myself, the basis of how people see the Battletech map and it's balance. And people see planet's like Bell as Davion planets because of that. I'm not saying that Julian Davion should push them back to Kittery again, but the 2750 borders simply aren't what people think of when they think of national borders.
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Iracundus

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #46 on: 22 May 2020, 20:48:03 »
I understand where you are coming from. I'm not going to pretend to agree because I am a Fed Suns fan, but I do understand where you are coming from. But 3025 is, even if I don't care much for the era myself, the basis of how people see the Battletech map and it's balance. And people see planet's like Bell as Davion planets because of that. I'm not saying that Julian Davion should push them back to Kittery again, but the 2750 borders simply aren't what people think of when they think of national borders.

I used to be a FedSuns and FedCom fan in my younger days but switched sides because I felt sorry for the underdog, that kept getting beat up non-stop in their backstory and in the 4th SW, and the developer favoritism started to grate on my nerves.  I mean the white hatting, where the Davion/Steiner characters were pretty obviously the protagonists that the reader was "meant" to cheer for even if they didn't win in the end.   

Actually I have always thought of the 2750 borders as the original national borders, even from the very beginning when FASA had not released the original borders, as that was the most objective indicator of the progress of each state and their claim to First Lord, so please don't assume your position is the default one for everyone.  For me the 3025 situation was always an "unnatural" one resulting from the exhaustion of all the states, and their inability to do much more than raid.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2020, 20:59:47 by Iracundus »

Colt Ward

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #47 on: 22 May 2020, 22:01:03 »
Which is the point, they have not been the favorite for 25 years- but that image still sticks with them.
Colt Ward
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Iracundus

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #48 on: 23 May 2020, 01:51:21 »
Which is the point, they have not been the favorite for 25 years- but that image still sticks with them.

One has to consider the magnitude of the favoritism.  They almost swallowed up the Confederation.  All the years since have been essentially undoing what was handed to them in one fell swoop with the 4th SW.  Even when Victor failed in the books, I still got the sense of "oh he meant well" flawed hero.

From the beginning, the FedSuns started off in a stronger position and were seen as maybe even the eventual winners.  I admit that was sort of why a younger me sided with them before I fully appreciated the different sides or the necessity of there being no final winner if the setting were to continue.  I don't see the FedSuns being reduced from their dominant starting position as anything more than bringing things back to an equilibrium state. 

It's like making things equal between the Empire and Rebellion in Star Wars by giving the Empire back a Death Star like how it started back in 1977.  Except that the starting position was anything but equal.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2020, 02:01:54 by Iracundus »

Minemech

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #49 on: 23 May 2020, 10:03:36 »
Even when Victor failed in the books, I still got the sense of "oh he meant well" flawed hero.

As a general rule, this is common when things are read from the protagonist's point of view. It is quite easy to read Victor as an obnoxious, and self-centered brat who views himself as too good for House Davion--he thinks that he is the Star Lord. Gavin Dow cryptically says as much when Victor returns to Comstar.

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #50 on: 24 June 2020, 02:05:42 »
Not just New Avalon- at one point the ONLY March Capital they had was the newest for the Periphery March.

And the FedSuns/FedCom has been taking it since the mid-90s while Sunny & Co have been a miracle workers since then.

It truly is a sight to behold when you combine the engineering skill of Montgomery Scott and the fighting prowess of Duncan MacLeod.
« Last Edit: 24 June 2020, 02:10:26 by Guardsman »
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #51 on: 27 June 2020, 10:41:11 »
Does anyone have a nice colored map of 3150 lying about?  Sarna.net seems to, as their entries for each planet uses the most up to date map in the profile, but I can't find where they are getting that map.  It sure looks nice though, what they got.
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #52 on: 03 July 2020, 23:45:59 »
I've coloured the map from shattered fortress, I dunno if you can call it a nicely coloured one compared to the one on sarna.net, but if you want it, send me a pm
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #53 on: 06 November 2020, 11:26:35 »
Bit of a thread necro, but pretty interested in this.

ilClan is nigh.  What happens to the rapidly shifting borders of the Inner Sphere powers once the Republic becomes the holding of the ilClan?

Do you all think fighting will accelerate or stop?  We know the Capellans are going to get involved on Terra--potentially getting mauled or maybe just playing spoiler.  Will the DCMS get involved at all?

A few folks thought that Stone would demand help from the FedSuns, which really doesn't seem possible due to how thin they are.

What do you all think?

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #54 on: 06 November 2020, 13:38:24 »
I reread a splinter of hope recently to make sure I wasn't imagining things regarding certain characters. All it will take for the FedSuns to go down is a bit of threatening language.

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #55 on: 06 November 2020, 13:52:14 »
 . . . Operation Eruptio has happened.  The Drac front is in chaos- especially with the Dragoons leaving their service, maybe even some having to fight their way out- while the Cappies are focused on the Republic border.  Heck, they are probably in their best position Dec 3150 than they have been since Caleb died.
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #56 on: 06 November 2020, 13:53:43 »
You haven't read Splinter of Hope, have you, Colt? It ends on basically Julian going "I'll be a good boy, Danai. Please don't hurt me. Please."

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #57 on: 06 November 2020, 14:01:59 »
Yes I have . . . and what is the date of that book?  The new characters in that book were fine but Danai, her old friend who commanded the Dynasty Guard, and Julian are all unfortunately portrayed as different characters than they were in MWDA.  Julian is not in top form during that meeting.

For timing IIRC its roughly mid-way in Shattered Sphere . . . the Capellan front stabilized and Daoshen is looking to the Republic- which is handing him a lot of pain.  Which is why I said that by the time Shattered Sphere ended, Dec 3150, the FedSuns is in their best position since Caleb died.  It is not the beginning of the end but perhaps it is the end of the beginning.
Colt Ward
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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #58 on: 06 November 2020, 14:06:34 »
Stability on the front between Davion and Liao would give the 'Davion Irregular' forces we ready about the best chance to reconquer the Dragon's Tongue region.

As for New Avalon, I'm assuming the DCMS will go razed earth on their way out.  My poor Valkyrie factory.

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Re: Shifting Borders: 3135-3151
« Reply #59 on: 06 November 2020, 14:22:47 »
Yes I have . . . and what is the date of that book?  The new characters in that book were fine but Danai, her old friend who commanded the Dynasty Guard, and Julian are all unfortunately portrayed as different characters than they were in MWDA.  Julian is not in top form during that meeting.

And yet it is canon. Until the day that TPTB chooses to uncanonize it, that is the Julian we have. If this is the Julian we have, you can understand why my hopes are so low.

 

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