Author Topic: A directory for Monbvol's Madness(story index)-also rate review discuss  (Read 10076 times)

monbvol

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Remastered for the new one probably would be best.

monbvol

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Okay self review time for my re-write of a Weapons of War saga.

Overall I think I did a lot better in some regards.  I made it reasonable for why the butterflies wouldn't get too out of control and derail my desired end goal but still had a fair bit of stuff for Helena and the AIs to do.  I also purposefully left a lot of windows open so if we do want to do side stories or others decide to jump back into the world of quirky AIs there should be plenty of room for either.

I also think it is something we do have a good foundation for now where we can re-visit the general theme and do different versions of it.

Daryk

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I think it meshes well with Cannonshop's story so far!  :thumbsup:

monbvol

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With the saga concluded time for my final thoughts:

The bad:
Honestly I started getting really frustrated with how little information there was for me to actually really work with in Era Report 3145, Field Manual 3145, and ilClan.  Seriously modern sourcebooks actually suck worse for finding the kind of information I expect to be able to find in them period, let alone quickly or easily.  This is what really led me to go full butterfly mode and just stop caring so much about sticking to the date of the actual show down.

The ugly:
All the untapped, left there hanging, and otherwise loose plot threads.  Some yeah I probably should have tied off in this story, others I absolutely consider features not bugs.

Just how long it took us to get to the hot Warship on Warship action and how quickly we resolved it.

Oh and letting all the little errors google docs is not good at catching through.

The good:
Just how many characters seemed to take on a life of their own and become something else.

Self rating:
I'm honestly very torn how to self rate this.  Between all the help I can't rate myself very high but at the same time at the risk of being immodest this was some of my most inspired writing I've ever done because of all the help and really it has been a surreal experience doing something like this.  So I think I'm not going to because it isn't fair.

Wrangler

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Quick engagements: monbvol, it just happens that way with Warship combat, I'm not sure if you used megamek to simulate the battles or not, but combat with Warships are like that.  Unless their crews are mindful of perserving their ships, they're going get hosed (wrecked) quickly, especially with the high speed engagements.  If megamek was used, you could have eek out details many writing would have skipped.  Such as the IlClan source book's naval engagements.  Given setting in canon, warships were very rare beasts (outside the Clans, 2-3 ships per faction if their lucky...) we don't get read much about the combat itself.

Details from the sourcebooks is tough.  I found the novels were actually providing details the sourcebooks were providing.  Especially when you look that most of those books (except illClan and Shattered Fortress) were written when the novels were barely flicker in anyone eyes.

Don't be hard on you're self.  You did good job!

"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Cannonshop

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I helped with some of this, not as much as you might think, and Monbvol handled 'setting down the hard rules' remarkably well on the parts I assisted with.

There were some thread-lines we terminated without resolution after a lot of mileage just to keep the general plot going forward, a hell of a lot of side-actions that could be their own stories in and of themselves, and threads we didn't finish.

Most of those are MY fault, Monbvol stuck with the plan better than I could or did, a 'second draft' would end up being a mite shorter over-all, and tighter in the hypothetical world where we were working under an editor in a professional capacity for publication.  (really, my ADD goes-WhooM!! far too often...which resulted in the primary author (Monbvol) having to wrestle things back on track.)

On the whole I'm not sure what I'm going to try tackling next myself, but this whole series from Strategos to the final installment of Weapons of War has been a hell of a ride from the writing side.
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monbvol

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*nod*

Like I said some of those I consider features not failures.  I'd love to see what other authors could do with some of those threads and where they would go with them.

Really though for me there's only one part that nags at me even in the slightest.  I probably should have given Alaric more screen time at the end there to show his perspective about how everything had gone to ruin and him finally admitting he needed to surrender but by that point I was so ready to just finally get the story done and over the finish line and I find myself not so troubled by that to go back and change that.

If I were to revisit the general concept again I'd probably focus a lot more on the AIs, make their inhuman nature more obvious.  Smaller cast too so I could focus on them a bit more.  I probably would not go for Helena Cameron surviving unless it was via Amaris being particularly cruel and sitting her in the comfy chair and turning her into an AI so he could play with her forever as his favorite doll and just for extra cruelty he does have her placed in a CASPAR in time for the final fight against Kerensky.  But beyond that I'd go a hell of a lot more butterfly because I know this much:

I've about had my fill for a good while of being constrained by Battletech official time line.  So my next work is going to be a lot less constrained, whatever that winds up being.

Cannonshop

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On the naval battles, especially the climax...

In battletech, 'mech action is typically people slapping overheat alarms and firing cascades of fire with sheeting waterfalls of ablative armor and the occasional physical attack as they leap and bound (and in some of the worst books, cartwheel).

all while chattering away in pseudo-military dialogue and screams.

In space, nobody will hear you scream.

well, not nobody, but it's damned unlikely.  Naval Battles are about position and local superiority rather than your wonderfulness as a gunner or awesome personal piloting.  that is, your naval battle begins with long periods of getting into positions, changing positions, pursuing, retreating, arranging...until you hit the merge, were everything you've een doing comes to a head.

It's a completely different pace of fighting, with a very 'no-takebacks' sort of conditions.  (typically if your 'mech drops, you can walk away.  It's very  very long walk in space and no air to walk in.)

by definition, it's a lot more lethal.

as it should be. In a Warship (or dropship) losing your ride means a bit more than when you're in a 'mech.  It's losing the thing that has all the air you're breathing for one.

and did I mention the walk is a bit further than Lietnerton to the Gash?  well, it is.

Clanners don't just use Harjel in their battlearmor, it was first mentioned as something used to keep their ships sealed.  Thus, one can in fact safely assume they don't fight de-pressurized.

After all, if htey did, what the ****** good is the stuff?  Some material swelling to close a break in a damaged area just makes repairs take longer, if it's not serving other purposes, because you have to scrape it away to weld the hull, bulkhead, or structural ribs and stringers back together.

Thus, the Clanners (except Snow Raven because they're NAVAL focused and would understand this idea) probably run full pressure in their warships (even with the shock transfer and risk of fires).

this ends up asking 'why' and the answer, is "Who Commands?"

Typically 'mechwarriors have a certain...questionable sense of style.  (cooling vests and shorts), pressure suits with catheters? not so much, not if they don't have to.  when all you fight are honor duels for generations, well, you don't have to, and you still don't have to if you're used to being the only warship on the block, and you still don't have to if your closest competitors still lose a gun duel more often than they win.

the idea of 'continuing to fight after you're defeated' isn't in the Clan psychology.  (thus Joanna's lucky jump-jet attack on Nasty K, who ought to have known better than to stand there and gloat...but didn't.)

It is, however, the kind of mentality you need in a Naval command.  "Don't give up the ship" means more than just keeping fighting, it's also about keeping in motion, or even getting away.  No ship? you're dead.  that's how space works.

but why would they have that doctrine?  Why would they fight their ships in shirtsleeves when that amplifies every critical hit or potential critical hit?

well, people work better in physical comfort, and it's easier to manipulate touch-screen controls if you're not saddled with bulky gauntlets and a pressure suit.   It's easier to communicate by voice than over a suit radio where you have to select your audience.  it's more efficient in limited engagements.

Especially if your equipment designers desgined your control interfaces with touch-screens and voice command, which would be the 'more advanced' option for most people who don't have to think about 'how do I work this when the air's leaked out?'.

These are 'background thoughts' running from the FIRST Captain Roberts story, through to the end of Monbvol's epic "Weapons of War".  The ships with AI, and the ones without, built for Helena's Star League (or retrofitted for it to use human crew), got big, lumpy, analog, 'fischer price' controls that you can use while you're suited, because they expect to need to wear the suits in combat.

Why? because they learned.  the Clan system doesn't really permit much active learning, just as it doesn't prioritize things like "damage control is everyone's job" on a ship.  Much of the reason the Wolf Fleet lost over terra, was that they had outstanding Damage Control special teams...who didn't survive the actual experience of fighting a true peer force that has the same capability, but actually expects to have to control their damage with "WHomever happens to be here" rather than "this special, dedicated team of highly trained specialists."

against a similar force, the battle would've lasted a LOT longer, because the Wolves wouldn't have lost quite so many ships quite so quickly.

"Killing Sack"-this is an in-universe technical term for a three dimensional, flexible, killing box.  that is, a formation designed to contain, travel with, and destroy an enemy target from multiple angles.

Everything in space, is in motion.    a "Killing Sack" flexes with enemy attempts to break the ambush, instead of trying to hold a static position.  (everything in space is in motion, so if you want to keep them in under your guns, you better be moving too.)

"Jolie Rouge"/"Pretty Red" 17th century term coined by pirates and privateers, from which, the term 'Jolly Roger" evolved.  It literally means no quarter will be given-the enemy will not be allowed to retreat.  It comes from the use of a red flag to signal the intent, which just goes to show how weird things can evolve to the popular conception of a black flag with a skull and crossbones.

The Use of Mines in the story; My fault.  I needed a reason that the wolves didn't just mud-stomp everyone.  Thing is, what I came up with mihgt actually WORK.  They're not floating there, they have thrusters with a high specific impulse that last for a long time, but aren't high output flares that can be spotted easily, they have a warhead, a guidance module, and rudimentary stealthing that doubles as power for the low-powered thrusters they use to sidle up to an enemy target and go bang.

and a megaton nuclear warhead, because that's what you'd use against warship grade armor.

Obviously going to be both cheap to make, and hard to use effectively.

I toyed with the idea that they'd have to be guided to the target, and maybe they were.  Someone in a single (that is, mining skiff or other civilian grade smallcraft) running them on remote to put the limpets that last bit of orbital speed needed to bring them up against an enemy warship's hull or in an enemy warship's 'field'/course.

I threw in some Jihad tech, with mass-drivers on IO and Ganymede just so we could show something BLP didn't-the Belters resisting intelligently instead of following the single stupidest 'defense plan' ever conceived of by non-spacefaring man.

While BLP was leaning heavily on "Downfall" for his story in the Canon, I leaned heavily on the siege of Vienna (and a few other historical sources) with Helena's forces taking the role of the Winged Hussars.

but, I also leaned on some WW2 history, with the Belters finally asserting their sovereignty as happened in places like Indochina when the allies drove the Japanese out.

These people, per the canon, had held on to their tech, culture, and structure through McKenna, Cameron, Amaris, Kerensky, Comstar, Word of Blake and so on.  NOT the kind of people who'll embrace extinction or submission under WoB or Stone, never mind Alaric.

The Debate we used, and Tom Mahan's greatest contribution to the war? those were some of the parts of that final story I'm genuinely proud of, because it touched on something that imho ought to have been going on in the canon, but wasn't because 'Sheeple'.

(Sheeple, a phenomena that makes a lot more sense when you can actually be illiterate and technologically backward and not die of it because the environment isn't trying to kill you all the time).

more to come...
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Cannonshop

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*nod*

Like I said some of those I consider features not failures.  I'd love to see what other authors could do with some of those threads and where they would go with them.

Really though for me there's only one part that nags at me even in the slightest.  I probably should have given Alaric more screen time at the end there to show his perspective about how everything had gone to ruin and him finally admitting he needed to surrender but by that point I was so ready to just finally get the story done and over the finish line and I find myself not so troubled by that to go back and change that.

If I were to revisit the general concept again I'd probably focus a lot more on the AIs, make their inhuman nature more obvious.  Smaller cast too so I could focus on them a bit more.  I probably would not go for Helena Cameron surviving unless it was via Amaris being particularly cruel and sitting her in the comfy chair and turning her into an AI so he could play with her forever as his favorite doll and just for extra cruelty he does have her placed in a CASPAR in time for the final fight against Kerensky.  But beyond that I'd go a hell of a lot more butterfly because I know this much:

I've about had my fill for a good while of being constrained by Battletech official time line.  So my next work is going to be a lot less constrained, whatever that winds up being.

Changes I'd make;

the first ones are like you said, Alaric needed more screen time to really start to understand the magnitude of what he's gotten into, and how truly unwinnable his situation was.

Because frankly, BLP aside, it WAS unwinnable if the people in the Sol system had an ounce of initiative or intelligence among them.

My second, would be that Helena, not Amanda Roberts, would be the hero winning over Terra and taking the Wolf Flagship McKenna's Pride.

I consider that MY mistake, at the climax, Amanda should've been the side-show, not the main event.  I feel a bit like I took something from you by going with that.

I apologize.

I also maybe would've done more ground action in the Sol system over more spacing in the text, to show the initial Wolf landings, the brave defenders and their improvisations.  I tried to insert SOME of that, but it didn't feel fully done as right as it ought.

I'd probably also do the crushing fights at Ganymede and Io, to show that the Wolves knew their business, and maybe in the weeks leading up to the relief, more scenes with RAF naval units, especially the Reservists because those are always fun, fighting as a 'fleet in being' to keep the wolves from being able to concentrate on their primary goals.

still, you kept us on task and that was GOOD.  I can't argue the outcome was bad, the story is also good...I think?
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monbvol

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Yeah I'd say what we really needed was another full time author, possibly two, just to give all the creative bandwidth this story demanded.

As far as Amanda versus Helena, yeah I let Amanda take the center stage for one reason.  Helena is the head of state.  I know Battletech is big on heads of state taking center stage in fights but Helena's been around long enough and is smart enough to not do that.  Instead she let her best people get in there and take care of business without her getting in the way.

Cannonshop

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Yeah I'd say what we really needed was another full time author, possibly two, just to give all the creative bandwidth this story demanded.

As far as Amanda versus Helena, yeah I let Amanda take the center stage for one reason.  Helena is the head of state.  I know Battletech is big on heads of state taking center stage in fights but Helena's been around long enough and is smart enough to not do that.  Instead she let her best people get in there and take care of business without her getting in the way.

I bow to your superior choice there, because on reflection...you're absolutely right about that call.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Wrangler

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It's been a wonderful ride, such a wonderful story arcs collaborating between everyone who's been participating.

I'm a little sad that this is ended. I'm not sure if anything like this will happen again, but the future is wide open as they say.

I want to thank everyone allowing me to archive the stories or future generations of readers. I'm working on artwork for the ships since that seems to be something I am able to as well as archive things.

Aside from a possible precursor story for the Roberts, I take it this is it?
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Cannonshop

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It's been a wonderful ride, such a wonderful story arcs collaborating between everyone who's been participating.

I'm a little sad that this is ended. I'm not sure if anything like this will happen again, but the future is wide open as they say.

I want to thank everyone allowing me to archive the stories or future generations of readers. I'm working on artwork for the ships since that seems to be something I am able to as well as archive things.

Aside from a possible precursor story for the Roberts, I take it this is it?

we may return to this 'verse with shorts built around some of the 'stubs', or even a new story (or a few).

We're going to do a munchkin experiment sometime in the near future, still working out details on ground rules, but parts will be...more of  a return to some of my prior stuff, and a slightly different take on some of Monbvol's prior material. 

Mostly doing it becasue the idea made me giggle for, like, five seconds.

I will refrain from further details for the time being.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Wrangler

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Nifty!  We'll be waiting, it was fun read.  I had half expected to see stuff from you cannonshop to round up the AU actually.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Daryk

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I'll certainly be around, and available to edit when Google is feeling generous... ;)

This was definitely one of the better long form stories here, I think.  And I loved every minute of it (though not so much the Google fickleness)!

Death_from_above

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A suggestion for future (longer) story arcs :

The multitude of characters and the fact that several of them used multiple names (Envoys having a given name
(Famine, ..), a chosen name and using an alias) sometimes made it tricky to distinguish them in the storyline.

Maybe it would be useful to include a Dramatis Personae in the first post (updated as the story progresses) ?
« Last Edit: 21 October 2023, 01:20:00 by Death_from_above »

monbvol

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Yeah and it didn't help that we got a bit lax about adding new characters to our notes/planning documents to help keep it straight for ourselves.

Wrangler

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If you guys need someone keep you on task if you decide to collaborate again, let me know. Having edited all the stories for this, I can point  out stuff and keep things going.  Detail is aspect of BattleTech
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Wrangler

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Yay, I'm done...well almost.  I have finished Archiving The Weapons of War: The Final March on the Battletech Fanon Wiki.

Something I wish had gone to as reader.   
  • The effort was made by the Wolf Empire to recover and used old SLDF tech that was meant to mess with the Ai's that would been interesting drama/struggle for the AI Characters.
  • It would been cool to have more interaction between Lori Cameron & Roderick Steiner, given they some how had son pretty darn quick!  Still confused what happened with Trillian, given HE was being coronation...which confuses me.  Unless He's with their son coming to Terra for Lori's coronation but they'd have know about it happening.
  • Outrage never got to shine doing what he was planning to do, uniquely one two sons of Amanda Roberts
  • Kolossus dealing with politics of trying stay independent from the Ravens
  • Campaign on Terra fighting things out, which was only snap shots forces moving out
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

monbvol

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I suppose it is past time I add an entry for Beyond Hope to this thread.

Some other thoughts I have about this one not mentioned elsewhere:

As a Kowloon/Ngo story I know I was trying to let Cannonshop set a lot more of the tone, pace, and rules. 

The only thing I really insisted on is we make it a little more reliant on several star systems working together to get Kowloon over the hump of actually making their Warships and thus it not automatically just be such severe graft that I'm not sure an interstellar state could even function with graft that bad but then again one of my main thoughts for probably over a decade now has been the prices we have for things and even build times are just simply wrong.

I'd say the only area where this really made the story suffer is because I was trying to let him voice his own characters.

I still wound up writing a not insubstantial amount of Liz, Nathan, and a more minor portion of Evvie, Daphne, and a couple others' dialogues.

So some characters wound up going kind of quiet in some situations where I think they probably should have been talking more.

I probably made Janet and Gabriel too similar in overall tone.  Sarak 'Why' Yeh I may try and develop a story for him to get a bit more focus in someday.

Helena I was kind of wanting to hedge her towards no one sane would actually want to make her First Lord.  Not a real one anyway.

We also wound up with some continuity errors.

I'm still not sure I got everything posted so people really should download and read one of the doc files I linked to be sure they're getting the full story without me having missed something.

But despite all those issues?  I think we made something rather different and entertaining.

Daryk

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I'm just surprised how compact it was when posted to the forum.  The Google doc was over 400 pages...

monbvol

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Google has really fat default margins so thanks to putting all the formatting tags in so we could copy and paste it really ballooned up.

The less fat default margins of the word doc have it at 495 pages even with all the tags.

Cannonshop

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I'll interject into this from my perspective;

Monbvol did a great job voicing Liz, and the rest.  I stumbled a LOT on Helena, and not just Helena, but many of the canon characters I damn near entirely dropped the ball on.

from my view, by the time we were reaching middle, I had to lean heavily on Monbvol to get the characters to speak clearly.  Monbvol was great for keeping the plot working.

He was indulgent, mind-he let me get away with some of the goofier stuff and offered suggestions that made it around 5% less goofy than what was crowding into my mind.

also lots of good sanity-checks.  We had a few problems on timeline that probably shouldn't have been problems, I diverged early from the outline we started and had to be pulled back on-topic in the process of writing that one.

The ending...these people are damaged.  this is really the first time I've fooled with intentional time-travel backwards and what came up was;  "If I were Helena, would I leave my horrifying pre-Amaris coup life alone if I could jump back in time?"

answer I came up with was "aw hell no."

I'm not sure a decent human being who knew the details would let that past stand if they could attack it, and trauma sometimes tightens our perspectives so that we don't really pay much attention to who else might be impacted-in a sense, she paradoxed the time travel mechanism by making sure the inventor isn't born-The continuity she created leads to the action in "Black Jumpsails", which means that Liz never met Arthur, but instead married Nathan, nobody stopped the 21b outbreak from happening since Helena in that universe didn't jump forward, nor did she work with the OG Kowloonese since THAT helena wasn't there.

If Helena had known that 'fixing' her past like that would result in the Quarantine Zone and its litany of horrors, she might've reconsidered, but she could NOT have known that probability would fall like that.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Daryk

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Time travel without omniscience is fraught, to put it mildly... ;)

Wrangler

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I hope the next rump be less political and more action packish.  Roberts series was more my kind thing.  I really had trouble getting into Beyond Hope to be honest.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki