Mech of the Week HOP-XX Hoplite

[Kit deSummersville]

As far as I'm concerned, if a mech can be described as oversinked, it means it needs more guns.

Or at least more ammo. Smoke/Mines can be a force multiplier of sorts but when you only have 10 rounds in your only other weapon....

[marauder648]

I'm amazed that this rather unremarkable Mech's kicked up such an interesting debate and thread :D

[Empyrus]

It might say something about the Hoplite's capabilities that a few decades later the League procured an upgraded version of the Sentinel to do the same infantry support job.

The Sentinel manages to be worse overall though, unless we are talking about the Royal version. But even then, frankly the 4B is better for infantry support, as it has direct fire and indirect fire capabilities and is tougher. The Sentinel is faster and lighter to be sure, but not sure those are terribly relevant here.

The real reason for the Sentinel acquisition seems to be that it was exclusive to the Lyran Commonwealth. So the SLDF wanted it as well, and they wanted an upgraded version while at it. (SNT-1S was the original Lyran exclusive model.)

EDIT Looks like the Sentinel fluff indicates it is used for forward observer duties, or as a commander's ride. So it does pull double duty as fire support and recon 'Mech, something the Hoplite isn't good at really.

I'm amazed that this rather unremarkable Mech's kicked up such an interesting debate and thread :D

Actually this makes sense. There is little to be said about good 'Mechs with clear purpose they can do effectively. Everyone is like "it is good", and add either "i like it" or "i don't care for it (because it is good)" usually, and that's all there's to be said.
But oddballs like this, yeah, there's stuff to be wondered and talked about.

[Weirdo]

As far as I'm concerned, if a mech can be described...it means it needs more guns.

There you go. :)

[Kidd]

I expect an infantry-support Mech to also be capable of killing infantry - they are often the main opponents of one's own infantry. There ought to be a pre-4A variant that drops a few heat sinks for a set of machine guns.

Hoplite armour, in no way, shape or form similar to the Mech, save perhaps the shield...which is round.

Exactly what the Mech is named for, I think, as the shield is called a hoplon from which we get hoplite.

[SteelRaven]

I expect an infantry-support Mech to also be capable of killing infantry - they are often the main opponents of one's own infantry. There ought to be a pre-4A variant that drops a few heat sinks for a set of machine guns.

But this was before TW rules so you could easily murder a hex of infantry with a AC/10 (now, not so easy)

[mbear]

But this was before TW rules so you could easily murder a hex of infantry with a AC/10 (now, not so easy)

True. Honestly I'm surprised we're not seeing a post-Jihad refit for infantry support that uses Plasma weapons of some sort.

[Empyrus]

True. Honestly I'm surprised we're not seeing a post-Jihad refit for infantry support that uses Plasma weapons of some sort.

Cappies don't have Hoplites :P
I mean, standard Capellan upgrades are like: Does it have Plasma weapons? If not, add some. Does it have Stealth armor? If not, add some.


Incidentally, MUL lists the Hoplite as extinct design post-Jihad. So, eh, that's the reason for no upgraded variants.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And there's plenty of other medium mechs packing plasma rifles post-Jihad.

[Empyrus]

And there's plenty of other medium mechs packing plasma rifles post-Jihad.

But no dedicated infantry support 'Mechs, where the Plasma Rifle would fit extremely well.
Of course, that concept has more or less died with the Star League. The Successor States seem to value 'Mechs more so than they value infantry.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Life is cheap, but Battlemechs aren't.

[Weirdo]

But no dedicated infantry support 'Mechs, where the Plasma Rifle would fit extremely well.

It's not a medium, but... :)

[Empyrus]

Forgot that. But the concept is still largely dead and unused by the Successor States, some exceptions aside.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

To be honest, I'd rate the Snake as being close enough.  Same with the Calliope.

[Empyrus]

Mmm, true. The Capellans do seem to have held the concept alive in some sense. Presumably by necessity.

Of course, across the Inner Sphere there has been one gigantic change as well: The Battle Armor. They don't quite work like infantry support 'Mechs, but they can fight in places where infantry usually does and they are a threat to 'Mechs.

The Snake may function as infantry support 'Mech but let's not forget it was designed to hunt Battle Armor. The roles have shifted a bit.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given what BA can do to a conventional infantry squad, the Snake's anti-BA role could easily count as infantry support.

[Luciora]

The Calliope is the new Snake, complete with plasma cannon.

Given what BA can do to a conventional infantry squad, the Snake's anti-BA role could easily count as infantry support.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yes.  Hence why I listed it.

[Moonsword]

I've split out the Gùn-centric discussion and appended it to the Gùn thread.

On the Hoplite itself, I should give the newer variants - like the Royal - a whirl sometime.  They look like they'd be pretty fun.

[UnLimiTeD]

Actually this makes sense. There is little to be said about good 'Mechs with clear purpose they can do effectively. Everyone is like "it is good", and add either "i like it" or "i don't care for it (because it is good)" usually, and that's all there's to be said.
But oddballs like this, yeah, there's stuff to be wondered and talked about.

I believe something similar was said in a few other threads in the past, including (if memory serves) the Schildkröte thread.
@Moonsword : I have to admit I didn't really notice that from the Gùn's thread, 'twas a bit confusing.

As for a Hoplite for modern infantry support, if it still existed, the AC-10 would still serve well. Even just dropping a sink for extra ammo would do that - autocannons are cheap, and easy to maintain, and there's a wealth of special munitions, including shells for murdering lightly armoured people. No need to go all fancy with Plasma weaponry.

Battle Armour haven't really replaced Infantry, they are stronger and faster, yes, but there are still places they can't go, and weapons they take more damage from. And a heavy infantry or field gun platoon is a serious danger to both mechs and battle armour.

[garhkal]

Hoplite – The traditional image of ancient Greek soldiers.
Hoplite – The Battletech universes most angry of tictacs.

Background

Designed by Martinson Armaments and entering service in 2578 the Hoplite was designed from the onset as an infantry support Mech.  This could raise some eyebrows considering that the design almost uniformly lacks infantry support weapons and is built more to engage hardened targets than hostile infantry forces.  But this is also the SLDF who thought that things like the Magi were a good idea, so one could easily assume that greased palms were involved.

For something that was designed as an infantry support mech, it seemed to ME, to be far off the mark.  YES it's slow enough to keep pace with infantry, but that it really focused more on Long and medium range weaponry, no matter what version (LRM/AC/LB/PPC) seemed more to mark it as a distance/stand off fighter..

That said, damn near every game i had one, they were some tough art barmitzvas.. 

And the Hoppy certinally falls into the cheap and simple category, and due to its overload of heatsinks you could put a less skilled MechWarrior into it without having to worry about them overheating and exploding.

To me that it IS so oversinked, and has only 2 weapons, both ammo users was a poor choice... 

At the very least, there's room up top for a grill and some lawn furniture, set up a cozy rooftop beach party.

Hey, that's why it's oversinked! It must have a beer fridge!

Na.  Its over sinked so when the pilot's grilling dozens of burgers and steaks, it doesn't affect anyone else in the cockpit! 8)

As far as I'm concerned, if a mech can be described as oversinked, it means it needs more guns.

Agreed.  Even just dropping 2 heat sinks for 1 more ton of ammo for the AC, and a ML would imo increase its endurance..

[Getz]

I've never actually used a Hoplite, but the PPC packing variant seems quite good at first view.  I must try one out sometime...

[gyedid]

Anyone want to mock up a diorama with a Hoplite, a Sarissa, and some Phalanx BA?

Cheers, Gabe

[iamfanboy]

I'm amazed that this rather unremarkable Mech's kicked up such an interesting debate and thread :D

I think that it's because it's frustrating when players see something making obvious, huge design mistakes, like being drastically oversinked.

I mean, I was twelve years old when I figured out that the AC/5 is inferior to a PPC or LL, not a year after starting to play the game. TWELVE. My original copies of TRO 3050 were filled with childish scrawls, corrections of the flaws that were glaringly evident to a kid not even in high school - and the DESIGNERS who supposedly lived and breathed Battletech couldn't see them?

It's frustrating.

And I'm not talking raw stat optimization. There's room for the Hoplite, an ugly, slow medium 'Mech with an LB-10X and an LRM. But my tome from childhood crosses out the heatsinks for an LRM-15 and another ton of ammo. That's still not optimized, but it's an absolute improvement.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, saying a mech is optimized with a LRM15 would take some doing . . .

[iamfanboy]

Yeah, saying a mech is optimized with a LRM15 would take some doing . . .

Yeah, I went through a phase where I was cramming LRM-5s in the place of every other LRM rack out there, usually squeezing in a medium laser or another ton of ammo in place of the larger launcher penalty.

I must have done the Hoplite after that phase - it did pass pretty quick, the optimization was boring and I got tired of rolling so many to-hit rolls and gravitated towards 'Mechs with fewer weapons. Plus, Thunder LRMs are much more fun with larger launchers...

[sadlerbw]

Yeah, saying a mech is optimized with a LRM15 would take some doing . . .

Somewhere, a Blood Spirit is frowning at you.  ;D

[The Eagle]

Somewhere, a Blood Spirit is frowning at you.  ;D

That would be me, actually.  Spirits and Free Worlders both have loving relationships with LRM15s.

[Baldur Mekorig]

Just found two of these in an ex-RWR depot in a RPG campaign. Do not know if using them as-is, or modifing them to a canon variant or making a new one.

[gyedid]

If you have access to the tech base and techs that can handle it, I would modify them into the Klondike variant if I were you.

Cheers, Gabe