Author Topic: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)  (Read 11785 times)

Wildonion

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #30 on: 30 May 2018, 17:00:18 »
Decoy pointing out the quirks for the 'Mech makes me realize that this poor design probably also needs you to play with the rules for turning off heat sinks so that you can better manipulate your heat scale in order to get the TSM working. I have never liked the system, since it just feels too finicky to be of great use, but that would let you get more out of it without being something like an OTL-6D.

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #31 on: 30 May 2018, 20:07:03 »
If you can catch a target with reflective armor under that mace, the pilot won’t be making fun of the Mjolnir anymore...

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #32 on: 30 May 2018, 20:14:17 »
If you can catch a target with reflective armor under that mace, the pilot won’t be making fun of the Mjolnir anymore...
Just kicking them would have a similar effect...

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #33 on: 30 May 2018, 20:42:21 »
The only mechs I can think of with Reflective Armor are ones that are either too fast for the Mjolnir to catch (Gunsmith) or things that will horribly murderify an Mjolnir that's stupid enough to get that close (Wendigo, Cave Lion).
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #34 on: 31 May 2018, 08:03:17 »
The only mechs I can think of with Reflective Armor are ones that are either too fast for the Mjolnir to catch (Gunsmith) or things that will horribly murderify an Mjolnir that's stupid enough to get that close (Wendigo, Cave Lion).

The only other one that comes to mind is the Gyrfalcon, and that thing is going to eat a Mjolnir for lunch long before the pilot even knows there's a Jade Falcon hunting him.  ;D
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #35 on: 31 May 2018, 09:34:47 »
What exactly do you guys want from the Mjolnir? I'm getting the consensus that if it can't beat an Atlas head on, its not worth much.
The Mjolnir weighs 25 tons, is easy to maintain, costs about 2.6 million cbills, and has an ammoless loadout. Let the 'mechs that are built for a pounding take them. The Mjonir is meant to give a pounding.

A kind of mythological aside here, Thor wanted Mjolnir to be a warhammer. For reasons, he got a throwing hammer. How many myths do we have of Thor sulking in Asgard waiting for the dwarves to do things right?

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #36 on: 31 May 2018, 09:41:58 »
If I wanted to improve it, I'd drop the jump jets for more lasers and armor. Maybe an AES to help with that hammer more....
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #37 on: 31 May 2018, 10:02:58 »
If I wanted to improve it, I'd drop the jump jets for more lasers and armor. Maybe an AES to help with that hammer more....

Now that sounds solid. Much as I appreciate jumping in a light, here it's tonnage we desperately need back. Bumping the small laser to a second medium would be a nice boost, gaining a third would be good... really it's recreating the Valiant at that point, but there's worse Mechs to emulate I suppose. As it is, it's like a slightly stupid version of the 3050 Mercury.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #38 on: 31 May 2018, 10:24:40 »
Frankly, if you *want* a light that specializes in melee combat, the Scarabus is a better choice everywhere except for the budget.

Actually, I don't buy the "Based off of Wolfhound and Commando" line one bit. This thing's just a far cheaper and far worse Scarabus; Hell, both designs are produced by Lyran-Space Mech Factories.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2018, 10:26:42 by Caedis Animus »

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #39 on: 31 May 2018, 13:34:38 »
If it wanted to be heavier hitting, it could go with a small vibroblade. TSM becomes a bit pointless, but it kind of is now.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #40 on: 31 May 2018, 13:42:07 »
Really? They must mean cosmetically, because the 'Mech isn't great. Or even good.


You just have to remember the shape is a pile of suck.  xp

You've got to look at it from an in-universe perspective, not a tabletop performance perspective.  The Mjolnir uses a GM 150 SFE, the same as the COM-5S.  It uses the Wolfhound's O/P COM-22/H47 communications system and Digital Scanlok 347 targeting & tracking system.  That's what they mean by "components in ready supply".  It doesn't mean anything to us on the tabletop, but it make a difference in-universe.  I'd take "design elements" to be "6/9 25 tonner on an SFE" like the Commando and "no weapons that need ammo" like the Wolfhound.  I can easily see "Build us a lower-end light that won't need much resupply, and try to use existing parts so we can put it into production quickly" leading to something that looks about like this.  The Mace is a weird choice, but I'd put it down to new toy syndrome and/or Lyran fixation with physical weapons.  Now, if it was me I'd have just told them "Build more Wolfhounds.  I don't even care if they're old -1 or -2 models.  Just build more."  But that's just me.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2018, 13:44:13 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #41 on: 31 May 2018, 13:48:51 »
That's actually a really good point, using already-available components to build something quick and easy. But yeah, just restarting production of the 3050-style WLF-2 would be a massive improvement.
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #42 on: 31 May 2018, 13:55:52 »
It should also be noted that the TRO says:


Quote
At the same time a new light BattleMech design would be pushed into production for both internal use and external export. That new design would become the Mjolnir.
The Deployment section also says:


Quote
...subsequent production runs of the Mjolnir were sold to the Federated Suns and the general mercenary market.


So it's definitely going to mercenaries and friendly governments (the RAF also ordered some).  Building a cheap light mech out of (mostly) existing parts and then selling it to pretty much everyone is a very Lyran move.  And it's not like the ones in LAAF service are going to be piloted by anyone who matters.  The social elite are in Zeuses, Fafnirs, and the like, after all.



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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #43 on: 31 May 2018, 14:06:11 »
"If you thought the Civil War's fury and bitterness were past, note that the Lyrans are selling Mjolnirs to the Federated Suns. Old hatreds die hard, clearly."  ^-^
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #44 on: 31 May 2018, 14:29:29 »
What exactly do you guys want from the Mjolnir? I'm getting the consensus that if it can't beat an Atlas head on, its not worth much.

Ridiculous hyperbole always solves everything. I think what people would want from a Mjolnir is the ability to reliably handle opponents its own size at the least. Or otherwise provide a unique capability to make up for its lack of combat power. The Mjolnir manages to do neither of these things, primarily because of its gimmick weapon eating up two thirds of its war load while also being of only limited utility.

The fact that the Mjolnir is a simple design using basic components actually makes it worse. Basic designs tend to go to newer, less experienced mechwarriors, which means inexperienced mechwarriors actually using that mace in combat. And falling on their inescapably lightweight and therefore thinly protected asses when they miss (It's not the fall that kills you, it's the fact you have to burn MP to get back up instead of keeping your speed up).

All in all, a terrible idea all around.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Sartris

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #45 on: 31 May 2018, 14:34:50 »
it's a bug-speed light and ~barely~ avoids certain death from a gauss round to the side torsos or leg. what's not to love?

not many designs make me wonder if a spare Targe is available.

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #46 on: 31 May 2018, 14:39:24 »
You know, despite everything I just said about it, I should clarify that I still kinda like the Mjolnir. It's almost got that "bad with balls" feel about it that the Hellbringer's got, and those same poor design choices almost demand the kind of reckless, irresponsible fighting style that I love so much.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #47 on: 31 May 2018, 15:30:58 »
You know, despite everything I just said about it, I should clarify that I still kinda like the Mjolnir. It's almost got that "bad with balls" feel about it that the Hellbringer's got, and those same poor design choices almost demand the kind of reckless, irresponsible fighting style that I love so much.

It's a bit of a failure, but it definitely fails with style.
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #48 on: 31 May 2018, 16:00:37 »
Ridiculous hyperbole always solves everything. I think what people would want from a Mjolnir is the ability to reliably handle opponents its own size at the least. Or otherwise provide a unique capability to make up for its lack of combat power.


It does, doesn't it? I now have a clear idea of what to ask. Name the IS 25 tonners you think would win in a fight against a Mjollnir. Assume a 2x1 set up consisting of basic battletech maps. I think there are very few of them that can bring down a Mjolnir before the hammer comes in to bear.

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #49 on: 31 May 2018, 16:11:40 »
Mongoose?  Honestly, the hammer doesn't worry me much.  TSM and kicks would be a bit more of a concern, and a lot comes down to which is better: 6/9/6 or 8/12/0.  In a run and gun battle, pretty much all Mongoose variants outgun a Mjolnir.
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #50 on: 31 May 2018, 19:56:28 »
I've never played a game of BT 1v1 except as a training exercise for new players. 6/9/6 with peashooter weapons gets blasted apart on the post-jihad battlefield in one salvo. it's got an XL and 16 points of torso damage to take before it falls down.

if i were in a 1v1 with a mjolnir, I'd run a tarantula 3A with 8/12/8 movement and 2 mpls. or the 7/11/7 raptor F with x5 erml. hell, you could even run a dopey Eagle 3M and dare the maceman to come in range of the med vspl

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #51 on: 31 May 2018, 20:31:57 »

It does, doesn't it? I now have a clear idea of what to ask. Name the IS 25 tonners you think would win in a fight against a Mjollnir. Assume a 2x1 set up consisting of basic battletech maps. I think there are very few of them that can bring down a Mjolnir before the hammer comes in to bear.

Assuming that both mechs are 4/5 gunnery/pilot skills, you're looking at a 6 with the mace before movement or terrain gets factored in.  Most of the time it's really going to be something like an 11 or 12.  Put it up against, say, an Eagle?  That's a really bad matchup for the Mjolnir.
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #52 on: 31 May 2018, 21:51:42 »
As Arkansas Warrior said, it's made with parts that are in good supply. Subsequent runs were sold ... so, the Lyrans probably kept one production run, and sent the rest out ..... you all want a Battlefield unit, but are not thinking a different way .... trainer. You use this to train pilots for designs like the Hatchetman, Axeman, or Berzerker ..... they get some time in a mech with jump jets, that doesn't cost much, if they bang it up, and that doesn't cost money in ammo, for training. You just had a period of military draw down, and now you need to rearm, along with getting pilots up to speed.

On a side note, they can sell them to OTHER factions that also drank the Stone Kool-Aid and need something to put in formations.... at least, something other than an industrial designs.

As for building new Wolfhounds ... yes, do that, for your own forces .... but building older Wolfhounds isn't going to work, for the same reason that putting M48 Tanks back in production, now, would probably not be a good idea .... it's old tech, despite having an effective canon, still. Everyone KNOWS it's obsolete...... and no matter how much you tell them that it's new, with this or that ......they are seeing an old rusted hulk with fresh paint. Standard Large Laser... yeah, that's some grandfather's garage dweller, we all KNOW that Wolfhounds are sporting Heavy PPC's......

With this design, the Lyrans get a trainer, with options..... they can train pilots, and if desperate, field them...... at least until production is back up to useful levels, and you can start filling formations with better machines ........

The Invasion of France saw the Germans using Panzer 1's and 2's, because there weren't enough better tanks available..... and again, those were training machines ........
After decades of limited production, and draw downs of military assets, you need both machines, and trained bodies to operate them, and this allows them to start on the latter, while they play catch up with the former.

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #53 on: 31 May 2018, 22:14:19 »
As for building new Wolfhounds ... yes, do that, for your own forces .... but building older Wolfhounds isn't going to work, for the same reason that putting M48 Tanks back in production, now, would probably not be a good idea .... it's old tech, despite having an effective canon, still. Everyone KNOWS it's obsolete...... and no matter how much you tell them that it's new, with this or that ......they are seeing an old rusted hulk with fresh paint. Standard Large Laser... yeah, that's some grandfather's garage dweller, we all KNOW that Wolfhounds are sporting Heavy PPC's......

Why not?  Designs that are much, much older are still being built and used by everyone.  People have no problem with using Archers, Phoenix Hawks, or Locusts that are centuries older than the Wolfhound.  Battletech isn't like the real world where armies need to completely trade out all their armored vehicles every thirty years or so.
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #54 on: 31 May 2018, 22:14:55 »

It does, doesn't it? I now have a clear idea of what to ask. Name the IS 25 tonners you think would win in a fight against a Mjollnir. Assume a 2x1 set up consisting of basic battletech maps. I think there are very few of them that can bring down a Mjolnir before the hammer comes in to bear.

Commando? Mongoose? Brigand? Some versions of the Dart? Eagle? Ebony? The list goes on, and on, and on. It'd be a shorter list to name the twenty five ton mechs I wouldn't feel comfortable engaging a Mjolnir in. (The pathfinder?)

Also, the hammer? Does 6 points of damage. With a penalty to hit. And if you miss you have to roll to avoid falling with a +2 penalty. Depending on the skills of the pilots involved, it might actually be worth it to let you take a swing. Sure, if you can get your heat up you can hit twice as hard with it, but you're taking on a penalty to your actual guns to do it. And even to get to that point, you've gotta either jump randomly firing your lasers like a stooge (further hurting your accuracy in every regard), or you have to shut down your heatsinks, which only happens at the end phase, AFTER the heat phase, so you've really just gotta hope things go the right way next round. And the round after that, and the one after that until you actually get both your mech and its heat level in a position to actually swing that hammer (which also requires initiative to go your way on the round you want to swing).

Then you have to hit. Then you have to hope your hit results in enough damage to take your opponent out of the fight. Otherwise, you have to do the WHOLE THING again.

And all the while your opponent, who brought actual guns to the fight, is hammering away at you, delivering just as much if not substantially more punishment without having to perform an intricate song and dance just to have a chance to deliver a knockout blow.

Honestly, your mace doesn't scare me.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #55 on: 31 May 2018, 22:31:58 »
Why not?  Designs that are much, much older are still being built and used by everyone.  People have no problem with using Archers, Phoenix Hawks, or Locusts that are centuries older than the Wolfhound.  Battletech isn't like the real world where armies need to completely trade out all their armored vehicles every thirty years or so.

Yeah, but convincing other procurement offices to buy them is not going to be easy, not in amounts to be significant, and it wouldn't only be pilots you need to train.....  If you haven't been building a lot of combat mechs, you aren't going to have workers with the skills necessary, to build modern units with advanced tech.  Unlike mechs, people can't be mothballed into warehouses, and saved for decades.... they tend to deteriorate.
So, rather than use resources to build those older units, and then have to either upgrade them, at additional cost, or try and market them to people that are also trying to get the best bang for the buck with advanced units.... you build something that is cheap enough to be a bargain..... too cheap for other factions to pass them up as at least useful, for the cost.... and while doing so, you gain cash, and experience.....
Your supply and resource people get experience moving stuff around, while your factory workers get experience in hooking up fusion engines and myomers ..... and you gain units for training pilots on, so that they are ready when the bigger, and better stuff can be built .....

Remember the succession wars... in 3025, a Gauss Rifle was "Old" tech ... ancient star league.... but not one Davion factory could turn them out.....
The Inner Sphere just came out of a multi-decade era, where skills in mech building weren't a guarantee to a well paid living...... It would be like trying to build a car factory in the areas of Brazil with the primitive tribes as workers .... it would be a long time, before they were turning out quality vehicles.  They wouldn't have the base knowledge requirements, as workers, to even begin to have anything like a production rate, nor the experience to even know a quality error, if they saw one.

The Mjolnir gives you more than just a small, mediocre, mech .... it gives all the other things that are needed to take a nation that hasn't had military building as a priority, and expands the ability of that nation to become a military power.

Nahuris
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #56 on: 31 May 2018, 23:37:51 »
This is the Lyran Commonwealth we're talking about, not the Outworld Alliance.  They kinda know how to build mechs.  And how to build factories to build those mechs.  The Inner Sphere was devastated by the Jihad, but it wasn't suffering from centuries of lost knowledge the way it was after the Third Succession War.
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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #57 on: 01 June 2018, 00:33:17 »
What exactly do you guys want from the Mjolnir? I'm getting the consensus that if it can't beat an Atlas head on, its not worth much.
The Mjolnir weighs 25 tons, is easy to maintain, costs about 2.6 million cbills, and has an ammoless loadout. Let the 'mechs that are built for a pounding take them. The Mjonir is meant to give a pounding.

Maybe that it be able to deliver against anything besides succession war era 'mechs in it's own weight class? The mace here is the problem, but it's a problem the couldn't avoid. too much weight going into a weapon you can't easily get full use out of without a lot of tooling around like a nitwit. or getting hit with infernos i guess, but very few friends trust me to shoot at them with the right ammo.

honestly, i'm wondering if the mace was demanded as part of some PR gimmick. i mean it's light, cheap, and has a fancy hammer. stick it in homeworld patrol postings and let the kids gawk at it so they'll forget how nasty war is.
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mbear

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #58 on: 01 June 2018, 07:07:25 »
So it's definitely going to mercenaries and friendly governments (the RAF also ordered some).  Building a cheap light mech out of (mostly) existing parts and then selling it to pretty much everyone is a very Lyran move.  And it's not like the ones in LAAF service are going to be piloted by anyone who matters.  The social elite are in Zeuses, Fafnirs, and the like, after all.

I think that's what I find so frustrating about it. I understand your point about using already produced components to make a new unit, especially if you're selling them. But surely there's some officer who realized "Hey we can make the export version and a house special version with cool stuff." Almost like a Mjolnir-b "Royal" variant. I'm sure there's a Light Engine in production that could be put into the torso. That would free up one ton of weight and allow the Mjolnir to have another ER Medium Laser. I already mentioned using Heavy Ferro Fibrous armor up-thread and though it wouldn't really help a whole lot, it sure wouldn't hurt.

Regardless of version, dropping any pretense at ranged combat and using a battery of ER Small Lasers would be better for using TSM. The standard model could have three ER Smalls, which provides a possible 9 points of damage vs. the current ER Medium/ER Small combo's possible 8 points. The proposed Light Engine variant could bring in two more ER Smalls. It's still not great, but it's going to be a lot easier for the pilot to get the heat up to TSM friendly levels. And you'd have a credible rear-area raider.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)
« Reply #59 on: 01 June 2018, 20:18:08 »
If they make a b version, I'm hoping for a chain whip.  ;D
That said, is a light with a melee weapon really such a great idea?
It isn't enough for headcaps, costs weight that you could definitely spend on other things...  I suppose, to me, the whole concept of the weight class is recen, hit&run, maybe some backstabbing - wielding a mace doesn't quite fit. Well, it never does, but it doesn't here, either.
The marksman tank got a makeover with the suggested domestic/export version dichotomy, so this mech certainly could. The question of whether anyone actually wants to see that and it's worth the space would have to asked, though.
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