Author Topic: Touman sizes  (Read 5388 times)

wantec

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #30 on: 29 May 2023, 13:52:09 »

This is why I initially responded "Nope" to his post. As I understood @Woobly Guy's initial question, it was about a Warrior, *now* in another Caste because of testing down, later testing *back up* into the Warrior caste in a ToP.
Does anyone know of a Warrior having done this?
It's not a regular thing, but it has happened in rare circumstances to fit the needs of the Clan. In FMCC Vlad did it as another step to help fill the touman after the Refusal War and when the Harvest Trials got some, but not enough warriors. The Sharks did similar on Vinton (I think) during the Wars of Reaving. There's probably some more similar cases I can't remember right now. But in general, once out of the warrior caste there's no coming back (Sea Fox "retirement" excepted).
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Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #31 on: 29 May 2023, 17:09:05 »
@tassa_kay - not sure if it's the reference you were thinking of, but @Alan Grant, there's a mention of it on page 254 of The Wars of Reaving:
"Those who perform more poorly than expected are demoted. A non-officer MechWarrior, pilot, Elemental, or ProtoMech warrior who tests down are relegated to a non-combat role or else transferred to a civilian caste."

Interesting little addition to the glossary at the back of the book.  :thumbsup:

EDIT: This will require a lot of new thought down this particular path. What are the criteria behind the decision to be assigned to a non-combat role versus a civilian caste? How does that differ from the path of a solahma? (I'm asking more rhetorically at this point)

Little line of text, lot of implications.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2023, 18:10:44 by Alan Grant »

The Wobbly Guy

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #32 on: 29 May 2023, 20:41:41 »
Eh, let's clarify one thing - a non-combat role =/= civilian?

So these are military governors, administrators, investigators. The lowest of these is probably to oversee the maintenance techs, or maybe in charge of on-base security.

So failing the annual testing has 3 possible outcomes:
1. Demotion in rank
2. Relegation to non-combat role
3. Down caste

Outcomes 1 and 2 hold the possibility of regaining former status by testing well in the next annual cycle. Outcome 3 - dunno.

tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #33 on: 29 May 2023, 22:57:05 »
Thank you. If you have a page number for that first reference about test-downs non-officer warriors going to a lower caste, I'd love to get that. I believe you, I just didn't realize such a reference exists and would love to see it myself. This question comes up a lot.

It's in the Clan glossary under Trial of Position (WoR, pg. 254).

WoK also mentions it under Trial of Position (page 46), saying "those who do not [perform well in the testing] either retain their current status or "test down" and are relegated to second-line units and non-combat posts or demoted to a lower caste.

WoR just seems to make the officer/non-officer distinction, which granted is a great little detail to add to this.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2023, 22:58:42 by tassa_kay »
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tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #34 on: 29 May 2023, 23:02:57 »
What are the criteria behind the decision to be assigned to a non-combat role versus a civilian caste?

I think Gaiiten actually gave a great answer to this: the warrior's codex. A warrior with an otherwise-solid codex might end up being given a non-combat role, and a warrior with a crappy codex gets to join whatever caste the Clan gives a crap enough to send him to.

Quote
How does that differ from the path of a solahma?

A solahma unit is still a combat unit, I would think, as opposed to a non-combat role.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2023, 23:24:18 by tassa_kay »
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cmerwin

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #35 on: 29 May 2023, 23:17:14 »
This isn't entirely accurate, either; WoK, WoR and ER: Golden Century all contradict this.


Facepalm. Philip Drummond is actually a perfect example of this, demobilized out of SLDF in early Pentagon, but later tests back into Warrior Caste. That said, I'm not sure I feel right citing anything from Operation KLONDIKE as doctrine given how nascent everything Clan was.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #36 on: 29 May 2023, 23:22:38 »

Facepalm. Philip Drummond is actually a perfect example of this, demobilized out of SLDF in early Pentagon, but later tests back into Warrior Caste. That said, I'm not sure I feel right citing anything from Operation KLONDIKE as doctrine given how nascent everything Clan was.

Yeah, he's definitely a special case, I'd say. The Clans hadn't yet completely solidified their caste system yet, as we saw with the Wolverines letting theirs move around and the Falcons' Culling, so it makes sense.
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cmerwin

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #37 on: 29 May 2023, 23:29:56 »
Interesting little addition to the glossary at the back of the book.  :thumbsup:

What are the criteria behind the decision to be assigned to a non-combat role versus a civilian caste? How does that differ from the path of a solahma? (I'm asking more rhetorically at this point)

Little line of text, lot of implications.


@Alan's comment sorta speaks to my original rationale in the post. Given the definition of 'touman', I am not sure I understand the difference between 'non-combat' and 'civilian' for the Clans in this case? If the definition of touman is the 'fighting arm' (WoK 121), then non-combat and civilian mean the same thing. Unless, as I suggested earlier, following Alan's reasoning, what "counts" as fighting, might differ among clans (i.e. Mech = fighting; infantry/armor ≠ fighting for some, but counts for others).
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tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #38 on: 30 May 2023, 00:28:42 »
I would think non-combat roles might mean things within the touman that aren't handled by the lower castes: administrative/HQ duties, driving a support vehicle, comms officer at a base somewhere, etc. Support staff in general for a Clan's touman provides a lot of options.
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Richard S.

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #39 on: 30 May 2023, 01:04:11 »
Does Touman = warrior caste? Maybe there's some seperation, i.e. while the Touman might be all warriors, not all warriors are part of the Touman. I agree with the earlier idea that most noncombat roles like HQ and support personnel are going to be technician caste, though.

tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #40 on: 30 May 2023, 01:49:34 »
There's one non-combat warrior caste position that's obvious: sibko trainers.

I also imagine positions like planetary/enclave governors (example: the governor of Graus in "A Rending of Falcons" was an un-Bloodnamed warrior), liaisons with the lower castes (say, the warrior in charge of coordinating material transfers to a unit with the merchants, or overseeing the technician crew maintaining a unit's machines) and the like would also be things that warriors can test down to that are non-combat positions and considered undesirable because of the lack of combat/glory/chance for an honorable death.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 01:58:40 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #41 on: 30 May 2023, 02:19:17 »
I haven't seen it referenced in this thread yet, but it is worth mentioning that the Cloud Cobras are a special case in that they maintain essentially "dispossessed" warriors (read: fully qualified but currently lacking equipment assignments) as reserves. Not solamha, but actual reserves. They act in logistical, support, ad-hoc infantry, and even security functions and are the first tapped to fill in for casualties and other personnel losses. Reservists maintain their status via training on simulators and occasional live training time when equipment can be spared. This is all said to be done to support the Cobras general lack of military resources, especially 'Mechs. It also helps explain the references to leadership stepping aside and still maintaining the credentials and clout to be ecKhans of the myriad cloisters.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #42 on: 30 May 2023, 06:01:17 »
I don't think Warrior Caste is entirely the same as the touman. Great example already given and referenced in previous pasts, sibko trainers but others too, serving in roles outside of that. Cyrilla Ward was the Bloodname House Leader of House Ward but not an active warrior, arguably, not part of the touman. Military governors, advisors to other castes, test pilots and so on. Warrior Caste but not serving in the Touman.

I think the Touman is the standing Army/Navy Units of the Clan, for lack of a better phrasing. That includes warriors in line units and all support personnel of any role. That includes medical units, logistical units, engineers, combat engineers (canon tells us such units are usually attached to Galaxy HQs). That includes the naval reserve, which has crews of dropships/jumpships/warships dominated by individuals of other castes.

So Warrior Caste and Touman are like two circles with a tremendous amount of overlap. But they don't completely overlap.

Shifting over to this line about test-downs...

That line in Wars of Reaving says civilian CASTE. Important distinction. Test-downs can be assigned to non-combat roles or civilian castes. So they are saying they get reassigned to the scientist/merchant/tech/labor castes. You really need both words for maximum clarity.

Here is where I get a little interpretative of what I THINK that means. To me civilian caste truly means they are out. For some reason they aren't fit to serve, the warriors don't want then around. That part is easy to define, although I'd be curious as to what kind of situations warrants such reassignment. I'm half picturing a warrior who can't walk (or run) anymore, or who has gone partially blind. Something really debilitating and permanent, fully or borderline disabled in such that the warriors don't see any value in keeping them around. I can see that. They may have some value somewhere else in the Clan behind a desk, but not in the Warrior Caste, not anywhere even adjacent to combat living and working in rough conditions. This person could still live a life in a lower caste city, with air conditioning/heat, public transportation, the trappings of civilian life but also an easier life where they will still be able to contribute to the Clan and their particular needs can be accommodated.

The warrior test-downs assigned to "non-combat roles" that is where I get a little interpretative.

that could mean desk jobs for sure, they become the logistics person, or a Cluster HQ staff officer equivilant, but we know the Clan likes to treat some supporting assets like non-combatants even though they do see combat. Infantry/vehicle units, combat engineers, etc. They like to pretend these assets don't exist but they do.

I suspect non-combat roles actually means and includes some of those jobs that to a Spheroid would be seen as a combat arm, but to the Clans are regarded as supporting units. Infantry, combat engineers, naval crew (not officers).

Bit of supporting canon evidence.

FM: Crusader Clans, Star Adder section, page 119. Reads: Conventional vehicles and infantry round out the garrison galaxies. Though neither offers a path to glory for a warrior, such assignments are still far better in most warriors estimation than relegation to a lower caste.

It goes on to say they have two to three clusters of them attached to garrison galaxies and that some of these serve as police.

I've seen that line for many years now, but have always wondered if it was written in error or just badly worded because I always believed you really couldn't leave the Warrior Caste in most Clans. This new evidence puts that line in a very different light. It feels like it's supporting that modern definition of test-down given to us by the book Wars of Reaving.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 06:29:28 by Alan Grant »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #43 on: 30 May 2023, 06:32:59 »
I'd assume that a lot of the "support roles" within a Clan are part of the merchant caste as they are those who handle the logistics and also the caluclations for trials. Like the example given in WoR (the text written by the then SLDF ambassador) should a clan loose a mine it is not the leadership that decides what to do but it's rather the merchants who do a cost / benfit analysis and then give their recommendations. This is also something I wanted to throw in in regards to the Touman's size: I suspect that the merchants do a lot of calculating and then basically give their recommendations if a touman should be exoanded what it will cost and so on. For example if a Clan wants to take more territory you not only need to do the bidding but the aftermath has to be included: garrison forces, integrating of possible bondsmen and also the isorla civilians. not to mention supplying the new enclave and fortifying it while also guarding the possibly weakened existing enclaves. So if the merchant caste says "Yes if you increase the touman we have this and this possiblity but it will cost us this much in material" it might be a detriment in actually increasing the touman (especially with the wastenot.want not mentality of the Clans) This isn't the Is where you "just" have to persuade parliamant to build new units (Free Worlds) or simply order the crash build up of new units (most other Successor states)

Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #44 on: 30 May 2023, 06:53:14 »
I'd assume that a lot of the "support roles" within a Clan are part of the merchant caste as they are those who handle the logistics and also the caluclations for trials. Like the example given in WoR (the text written by the then SLDF ambassador) should a clan loose a mine it is not the leadership that decides what to do but it's rather the merchants who do a cost / benfit analysis and then give their recommendations. This is also something I wanted to throw in in regards to the Touman's size: I suspect that the merchants do a lot of calculating and then basically give their recommendations if a touman should be exoanded what it will cost and so on. For example if a Clan wants to take more territory you not only need to do the bidding but the aftermath has to be included: garrison forces, integrating of possible bondsmen and also the isorla civilians. not to mention supplying the new enclave and fortifying it while also guarding the possibly weakened existing enclaves. So if the merchant caste says "Yes if you increase the touman we have this and this possiblity but it will cost us this much in material" it might be a detriment in actually increasing the touman (especially with the wastenot.want not mentality of the Clans) This isn't the Is where you "just" have to persuade parliamant to build new units (Free Worlds) or simply order the crash build up of new units (most other Successor states)

Correct, I forget where I read it right now, but I've seen somewhere that the merchant caste handles the logistics of the touman. Merchant caste also operates a lot of the cargo carrying dropships, often with a merchant as the ship's captain, so they are literally running the support fleet. In addition to all the tasks you pointed out.

But then you also have the techs and laborers and scientists (doctors belong to the scientist caste) doing what they do if assigned to the touman. I can see roles for all of them. Technically such units and personnel would be considered part of the Touman.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 08:20:31 by Alan Grant »

cmerwin

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #45 on: 30 May 2023, 12:18:13 »
I would think non-combat roles might mean things within the touman that aren't handled by the lower castes: administrative/HQ duties, driving a support vehicle, comms officer at a base somewhere, etc. Support staff in general for a Clan's touman provides a lot of options.
Agree 100%, it's how contemporary militaries operate (my earlier distinction between combat arms and non-combat arms). But all of this is why I'm still unclear with the definition of touman as the "fighting arm of the Clan". If we are going with the definition as listed in the sourcebooks, I'm unclear as to how we interpret what counts as a "fighting arm".
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tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #46 on: 30 May 2023, 12:38:16 »
Agree 100%, it's how contemporary militaries operate (my earlier distinction between combat arms and non-combat arms). But all of this is why I'm still unclear with the definition of touman as the "fighting arm of the Clan". If we are going with the definition as listed in the sourcebooks, I'm unclear as to how we interpret what counts as a "fighting arm".

This is probably an oversimplification on my part, but I consider a Clan's touman to be all of their martial assets that we see in Field Manuals. Dominions Divided established that, at least for the Bears, their Watch is distinctly not considered a part of their touman (despite being organized in Clan military style, using Mechs, etc.), so if it's not "on the rolls" per se, I don't personally count it as part of the touman. We know that merchants, technicians and even scientists all have support roles for any given Clan's military force, but I think it's the grey area where the warrior caste ends and the lower castes begin that the line is drawn. Good luck finding it, though!
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Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #47 on: 30 May 2023, 12:41:25 »
To me... (opinion incoming)

You are part of the Touman if: You ultimately operate under the umbrella of a Galaxy HQ or Naval Reserve HQ, or Keshik HQ and report to the same. If you go high enough up the chain of command that you hit one of those offices, you are part of the Touman.

That doesn't just include Clusters and warships/spacecraft. That includes the support non-combat units.

If you or your unit don't report to one of those, you may not be part of the Touman. You may be part of a sibko training unit. You may be part of a shipyard, or 'mech factory, you may be part of the Watch. None of those report to a Galaxy or Naval Reserve or Keshik HQ. They report to other things, caste things, Clan Council, Khan.

But if you are with the <insert medical unit name> attached to Clan Wolf's Alpha Galaxy and reporting to their Galaxy HQ, then you are part of the Touman. If Alpha Galaxy in its entirety gets orders to pack up and move to a new posting, and you go with them because your HQ ordered you to, you are part of that command and part of the Touman.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 12:50:50 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #48 on: 30 May 2023, 12:52:29 »
WoK (which specifically remarks that the military and the warrior caste are not one and the same and points out those non-warrior caste supporting roles) gets a little more specific about the touman: they are divided into Galaxies, each roughly analogous to an SLDF brigade, with integral supply, transport and medical assets. It then goes on down the line with the Cluster, Trinary, Star and Point sub-divisions. It also notes that support assets like engineers, artillery and MASH units are attached at the Galaxy level but may be detached for operations with Clusters as needed.

So your definition isn't even your opinion, @Alan Grant, it's flat-out said to be the case. :)
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 12:56:31 by tassa_kay »
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Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #49 on: 30 May 2023, 13:51:04 »
Oh your right, and yea WoK page 64 literally defines "The Touman" as exactly that.

I'm sure I just read it, and then forgot I read it.

I'm actually an A.I. programmed with Clan Trivia.  :drool:

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #50 on: 30 May 2023, 14:23:45 »
Hey, don't even sweat it! It's you asking these questions that motivates me to go digging for the info, and I'm grateful for that because I learn new things!
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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #51 on: 30 May 2023, 14:56:21 »
I'd probably say that a failure in your annual ToP probably doesn't revoke your warrior status you'd just drop down a level (demoted, reassigned from a frontline slot to a secondline one or from secondline to solahma/support or to a different subcaste/lesser machine). Once you run out of levels to drop though you're out but if you rise fast quickly you have lots of room to fallback.

This is exactly what happens AFAIK.

Joanna lost rank when she failed a ToP late in life IIRC.  Got demoted from Captain to Commander IIRC.

Elias Critchel? from the Falcons got elected to ilKhan before Vlad killed him because he found out he'd been avoiding his annual trials to keep his position.

If he'd been fighting those he'd have lost his Khanship & started down a slide of demotions eventually ending up as Solhama Infantry after a decade or so of demotions/test downs loosing ranks & shifting from Front Line to Reserves, etc etc.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

cmerwin

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #52 on: 30 May 2023, 15:39:06 »
Oh your right, and yea WoK page 64 literally defines "The Touman" as exactly that.

I'm sure I just read it, and then forgot I read it.

I'm actually an A.I. programmed with Clan Trivia.  :drool:


Do you accept subscriptions yet?  :thumbsup: ;)
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Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #53 on: 30 May 2023, 17:27:19 »

Do you accept subscriptions yet?  :thumbsup: ;)

No, but I should consider it, LOL.

Pretty much every Battletech club, game, group I've been a part of, I've been the Clan trivia guy. Most people in those groups are happy to accept what I say as fact and feel like they've googled the answer (by asking me) and accept the response as fact. In this forum, even my knowledge gets challenged (correctly so) from time to time, and I genuinely learn new things or am thrown a different take on something that makes me reconsider what I thought I knew. So, I enjoy these discussions.

cmerwin

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #54 on: 30 May 2023, 21:25:33 »
In this forum, even my knowledge gets challenged (correctly so) from time to time, and I genuinely learn new things or am thrown a different take on something that makes me reconsider what I thought I knew. So, I enjoy these discussions.

@tassa_kay mentioned something similar. I started BattleTech in the mid-80's as a kid, then stopped in the mid-90s - for mostly life reasons (also when I entered college and then the military) - for 30 years. I'm an academic now by profession, so the sheer joy of BT nerd trivia is something I can absolutely relate with you and @tassa_kay (and many others here) on, and more than anything, as someone still catching up on the glorious BT trivia I have missed, it's a joy to have your voice(s) and knowledge in these conversations. This is a pretty awesome community.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 22:37:11 by cmerwin »
"But the nova cat paced steadily on,
Undisturbed by the petty battles...
its heart and mind devoted to
The Ways of Seeing, devoted to a more perfect life.”
-- The Remembrance (Nova Cat), 50.5.26-32.


Hellraiser

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #55 on: 30 May 2023, 22:42:39 »
Touman, as mentioned, is "Army/Navy".

Warriors = Combat Arms.
Front Line  >   2nd Line  >  Solhama  >  Security/Police/Watch  >  Non-Combat "Officers"/"Section Leaders" of the Non-Combat Arms below

4 other castes = Non-Combat Arms.
 Supply/Logistics = Merchants / Laborers
 Maintenance = Techs
 Medical = Scientists


That's my thoughts anyway.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Metallgewitter

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #56 on: 31 May 2023, 04:18:13 »
I think this discussion comes up when you compare it to the original SLDF: even those who wanted to enter the Quartermasters corps had to undergo basic military training.
I would assume that a good portion of the merchant caste never undergoes military training (unless they are failed members of the warrior caste). And I think techs and other members of IS militaries also undergo basic military training just in case a military operation goes south

Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #57 on: 31 May 2023, 05:35:41 »
@tassa_kay mentioned something similar. I started BattleTech in the mid-80's as a kid, then stopped in the mid-90s - for mostly life reasons (also when I entered college and then the military) - for 30 years. I'm an academic now by profession, so the sheer joy of BT nerd trivia is something I can absolutely relate with you and @tassa_kay (and many others here) on, and more than anything, as someone still catching up on the glorious BT trivia I have missed, it's a joy to have your voice(s) and knowledge in these conversations. This is a pretty awesome community.

Thank you! And yes it is.  :)

Alan Grant

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #58 on: 31 May 2023, 06:04:19 »
I think this discussion comes up when you compare it to the original SLDF: even those who wanted to enter the Quartermasters corps had to undergo basic military training.
I would assume that a good portion of the merchant caste never undergoes military training (unless they are failed members of the warrior caste). And I think techs and other members of IS militaries also undergo basic military training just in case a military operation goes south

That gets into the differences between the IS and Clan. In most situations the Clans just don't trust the lower castes with weapons and training.

For those lower caste who work within the Touman, they are probably expected to maintain a lot of military-esque aspects. Physical fitness and other things, they may have some version of a uniform even, and elements of military discipline. But they really just aren't combatants, that caste difference is very apparent.

It also means how they are treated on the battlefield by the warriors (of both sides) is very different.

I once portrayed a fanfic story where some Clan elementals overrun the rear area of their Clan opponent, think field base with power generators, repair equipment and the like, they encountered a lot of techs belonging to that other Clan. They didn't indiscriminately gun down the lower castemen they encountered all over the place. They ordered them to stand down and surrender. The lower castemen in turn, unarmed and with none of their own warriors in sight, obeyed. They stopped their work, allowed themselves to be corralled where the warriors told them to go and waited to see what happened, whether they would be claimed like Isorla by these warriors from a different Clan and become members of that new Clan, or whether their own warriors would show up and liberate them.

The only ones who died were under the direct command of a warrior telling them to get a particular piece of equipment working, and the elementals gunned down that warrior and the lower castemen adjacent to that warrior died as well, as antipersonnel SMG fire from an elemental sprayed the lone warrior and also hit the nearby techs he was commanding. The rest of the techs at the base were brought to a building and room, sat down and they waited under the minimal guard of one elemental. Later their own Clan's warriors showed up, retook the area, liberated the techs and put them back to work.

In all of this, the non-combatant status of the techs was pretty well-respected by the warriors on both sides. That had the benefit of keeping most of them alive throughout the whole ordeal. They don't jump in to fight, they don't intervene. If they are actively being massacred or executed it's entirely possible they may choose to defend themselves or run away (I mean that's just human instinct to a horrific situation). But that's not the Clan norm, it's not how they are trained to handle that situation according to Clan norms.

If it had been an Inner Sphere conflict between Great Houses, the support staff would have taken up arms, fought back, or retreated/would have been routed, and probably a lot of them would have been killed or taken as POWs. They would have instantly been transformed from support personnel to combatants once the fighting reached them. With Clan norms, that generally isn't the case.

I'm SURE there are exceptions to this. We know there are. The techs of Snow Raven Retrieval teams (R-Teams) are trained go onto the battlefield and begin their salvaging work before the battle is even over, and are trained to defend themselves (per FM: WC). I think the rules get pretty murky for a warship crew (largely made up of lower castemen) that is being boarded. They report directly to warship officers/warriors who might just order them to resist and fight. I can also see the rules being murky for combat engineers, who may be lower caste (but I can see this being an excellent place to put test-downs and solahma warriors as well), but still put on the battlefield to build that bridge, or whatever else, right amid a raging battle, where the opposing Clan might want to stop that effort.

So there are exceptions, some murky gray areas. But overall, it looks like this is how that is handled. That acknowledged Clan cultural norm also acts as a kind of shield, a layer of protection, and provides a layer of argument for why the majority of lower caste working in the Touman don't need weapons or weapons training. If the warriors recognize that you are unarmed and that the norm is that you'll behave this way, then the fear/urge/motivation to just mow you down at the first impulse comes down as well. Those lower caste begin to resemble civilians, or hostages if you prefer to Spheroid eyes. Easily controlled, obedient, even to the warrior caste of the opposing Clan.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2023, 06:07:22 by Alan Grant »

BaldDen

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Re: Touman sizes
« Reply #59 on: 31 May 2023, 12:52:45 »
Remember, once there were 800 soldiers in Toumen, and that's not counting tankers, VTOL pilots and infantry. Later came Elementals.