Author Topic: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?  (Read 7577 times)

truetanker

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #30 on: 22 March 2020, 13:18:33 »
Which is why I go Autocannons and AutoRifles every time...

Good SW "Mad Max" feel, don'tcha know?

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #31 on: 22 March 2020, 13:21:58 »
There are things I like from both the old and the new. I prefer the simplicity of the old, and would rather have that with the durability of the new. The new stuff just tried to integrate the rules from A Time of War and it made only a handful of weapons worth using. It's like, in order to create good infantry platoons, you HAVE to power game. So you get weird cases like the Bearhunter being awesome in AToW, but a waste of time in TW.

Then the abstraction of Alpha Strike on top of that... hoooooo boy.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #32 on: 22 March 2020, 14:35:01 »
There are things I like from both the old and the new. I prefer the simplicity of the old, and would rather have that with the durability of the new. The new stuff just tried to integrate the rules from A Time of War and it made only a handful of weapons worth using. It's like, in order to create good infantry platoons, you HAVE to power game. So you get weird cases like the Bearhunter being awesome in AToW, but a waste of time in TW.
True munchkings know the one true squad is a two-man group with an Intek Laser Rifle primary weapon and a Bearhunter secondary weapon.  Glorious Mauser IIC damage at IIC ranges, at 1/3rd the BV.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #33 on: 22 March 2020, 15:39:53 »
Squads can't be that small, though.

Inteks are great, but only do 0.21 damage each.  I usually use them with Auto-Rifles in a "normal" sized squad of 7.  That's a reasonable 4 points of damage at 9 hex range.  To take advantage of them, try squads of 6 (specifically, 5 squads in a platoon of 30).  That gets you 4 points of damage per squad, with one extra squad per platoon.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #34 on: 22 March 2020, 16:43:51 »
Squads can't be that small, though.
Last I checked in Tech Manual, there's a maximum squad size for PBIs based on motive type, but there's no minimum squad size.  It says Clans follow the 5-point squad and the Inner Sphere usually follows the 7-point squad by their doctrines, but it's not actually illegal to make an unconventional, under-sized squad through Tech Manual's construction rules.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #35 on: 22 March 2020, 20:52:59 »
Either it was errata, or I'm confusing it with the maximum number of squads per platoon (which if 5, if I remember right).

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #36 on: 22 March 2020, 22:08:57 »
Either it was errata, or I'm confusing it with the maximum number of squads per platoon (which if 5, if I remember right).
Either way, a five-man squad with Inteks ain't shabby either (if not quite as ridiculous as a two-man squad).  Take that squad, add a Bearhunter, and you actually triple the damage (.21/man -> .63/man) with only a small BV bump.  Same platoon with auto-rifles?  A bit less damage, a third of the range, and essentially the same BV.

What I'm trying to say is, the more you look at it, the worse it gets.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #37 on: 22 March 2020, 22:17:19 »
Squads can't be that small, though.
  One man with a portable radio can do immense amounts of damage.

 I use the seven-man squad formation but each squad can further be broken down into 2 to 4-man teams, depending on the mission. You don't need a full squad to man a heavy machine gun position or act as snipers.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #38 on: 22 March 2020, 22:40:34 »
Either it was errata, or I'm confusing it with the maximum number of squads per platoon (which if 5, if I remember right).

this is correct. max squads is 5 (TM pg 146)

while there is a cap on troopers per squad (10 for the traditional foot/jump/motorized bunch), it does not give a minimum size


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truetanker

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #39 on: 23 March 2020, 16:40:48 »
Then how's the Marian formations handled,  30 is the max per platoon, but oversized ones must split on the record sheet.  [ 36 -》WoB 2x 18 ].

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #40 on: 23 March 2020, 17:01:00 »
25-man sub-platoons.
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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #41 on: 23 March 2020, 17:36:32 »
How exactly do the Support Weapons get split up in that case, though?  ???

The Marians normally use 10-trooper squads...

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #42 on: 23 March 2020, 17:55:39 »
The slaves don’t get one

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Daryk

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #43 on: 23 March 2020, 18:08:55 »
Ok... how do the slaves get split up?  ???

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #44 on: 23 March 2020, 18:09:35 »
The old fashioned way

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #45 on: 23 March 2020, 18:11:06 »
All right... now I'm wondering what the sub-platoons do with half-slaves...  ::)

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #46 on: 23 March 2020, 18:38:53 »
You calculate a full 100-trooper platoon(or 50, or whatever is appropriate), 10-man squads and all, then look at your sheet of paper. The damage stats for troopers 1-25 are your stats for a single sub-platoon.
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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #47 on: 23 March 2020, 18:40:26 »
This is much less entertaining

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Daryk

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #48 on: 23 March 2020, 18:42:20 »
Agreed... whichever PTB that came up with the Marians using crazy 100-trooper platoons clearly wasn't talking to TPTB that were writing Tech Manual.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #49 on: 23 March 2020, 18:44:40 »
The entertainment is when you turn them loose on your enemies. >:D
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abou

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #50 on: 23 March 2020, 22:45:10 »
Agreed... whichever PTB that came up with the Marians using crazy 100-trooper platoons clearly wasn't talking to TPTB that were writing Tech Manual.
to be fair, it is pretty rare that Roman centuries were ever deployed at full strength...

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #51 on: 23 March 2020, 22:54:38 »
and then there's WoB/C* Level Is...

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #52 on: 23 March 2020, 23:17:01 »
this is correct. max squads is 5 (TM pg 146)

while there is a cap on troopers per squad (10 for the traditional foot/jump/motorized bunch), it does not give a minimum size
How does this work for C* and MH?

to be fair, it is pretty rare that Roman centuries were ever deployed at full strength...
100 was a notational original size, at some points the Century would cap out at 80 men.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #53 on: 23 March 2020, 23:22:42 »
How does this work for C* and MH?

C* deploy as two subunits of three six man squads - eighteen total for each. you can't put a 36 man platoon on the board.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #54 on: 23 March 2020, 23:49:54 »
True munchkings know the one true squad is a two-man group with an Intek Laser Rifle primary weapon and a Bearhunter secondary weapon.  Glorious Mauser IIC damage at IIC ranges, at 1/3rd the BV.

i did a thing. would be a fun little unit to put on the board in the one and two hundreds  :))

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68666.msg1592452#new

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #55 on: 24 March 2020, 10:54:46 »
to be fair, it is pretty rare that Roman centuries were ever deployed at full strength...

Yeah . . . no unit is ever really at institutional/OB/paper strength . . .

The irony is this . . . say you have four battalions assigned to a garrison post.  None of them will be at full strength, instead splitting the intake of assigned replacements- either FNGs or transfers- and will in most cases have their full material strength though sometimes they will have weird holes in the TO&E.  Preparing to go to Iraq in '03 I was told we would have a pair of M113s or Brads as gun guards for the battery HQ . . . they were not assigned b/c they were not directly related to our normal training, lol we had Humvees as tactical stand ins for the train up.  We would also get more squad weapons- machine guns and auto grenade launchers.  So non-deployed in garrison they try to keep the units near the same strength levels even if they are all understrength across the board.

Time to deploy?  Alright . . . so out of you four battalions, we are going to send three and . . . theoretically . . . they pick the top three performing battalions.  I say theoretically because you got the BS of who plays the game better (Hello Lyrans).  No matter what evaluation system for units and individuals is created people eventually figure out how to game the system.  For instance, if your OER does not say that you taught Jesus to walk on water, can heal all your troopies hurts, and convinced all the troops to swear off alcohol & whores; then you are a truly suck-tastic officer.  Why?  Because you get idiots who are what are called point fairies in some circles- they are like Oprah to a 1-5 (5 being best) evaluation scale, 'You get a 5, and you get a 5, and YOU get a 5' rather than really evaluating a troop.  Because if the evaluators subordinates merely meet the standard or are below standard then it reflects negatively on the evaluator's leadership & ability to train.

So what happens when the call comes for 3 of the 4 battalions to deploy?  Well, HOPEFULLY their boss knows who really can do the job and who cannot . . . but they get fed bad information from the bottom on up so . . . who knows?  Take a guess of who is the best 3 battalions- sometimes its the officer team that is effective and sometimes its the NCOs in spite of the officers, or junior NCOs in spite of a idiot senior NCO (pain, lots of pain).  Then the battalion that is remaining on station gets raided for personnel . . . and THAT evaluations is as real as it gets for a simple reason, lives are on the line.  In some cases, people are rotated out of the 3 deploying battalions to the remaining BN- broke dicks and losers.  You have a medical problem that will not get solved by the departure date?  Your now in the stay behind formation.  You a 1LT who finally got promoted after your 2LT peers are 1LT or even 1LT promotable- you might be considered substandard even if your evals say otherwise.  The stay behind formation might have a handful of good troops who are not medical problems, simply b/c the deploying BNs are already at full strength for that position/rank.  They will be on hand to help train the replacements who now all go to the remaining BN.  Hopefully along with the medical cases, they can keep the screw ups from ruining the FNGs (well, the book says do it this way . . . but eh, no need to worry about that- it never gets inspected anyway).  I have seen officers, NCOs and lower enlisted left behind for the simple reason no one wanted to go into possible combat with a idiot when given a choice.  Lol, I know one guy who was going to be taken when there was no choice and left behind twice when there WAS a choice . . . his behavior changed in '03 when folks started making jokes about taking a single use mine detector, disposable LP-OP, and who would be the first unmasking test.

So when a unit deploys from garrison for action, it SHOULD be at full strength unless the personnel system is tapped out.

Which leads to the next logical question . . . why would peacetime/garrison situation have all their units 60%-80% strength?  Why not concentrate the troops you have to maintain full strength units and retire the colors for the excess units?  Two reasons, you decide which is more important- career path and wartime expansion.

Easiest to explain is when below establishment (paper Order of Battle established manpower) it is USUALLY in the lower enlisted, junior NCOs, and junior officers.  Why?  What positions are you going to fill when putting the population or at least your recruitment efforts on a wartime footing?  Lower enlisted and 90 day wonder junior officers because they are the beginning of the manpower funnel.  Junior NCO slots get filled by a sort of domino effect . . . knowing their personnel positions are going to get filled, usually more experienced/capable lower enlisted get promoted to fill the slots rather than have someone transfer in from outside.  Usually the new NCO was performing those duties already for various reasons, but it gets made official because its someone the command team knows rather than a question mark coming from somewhere else.  Saw it happen plenty of times . . . its considered loyalty to 'your' guys.  They would probably have eventually be promoted but it was not something done when command wanted the troop to be doing the job.

And why are the senior NCO and field grade officer slots filled?  B/c most professional militaries  use 'up or out' as a institutional program.  Its how the personnel pipeline narrows to a funnel, weeding out folks as time & grade increase- only a set percentage, as determined by slots of one rank will be promoted to the next.  They only have so much time to promote to that next level before personnel would be required to retire/separate from the military (hello merc pathway) if you are retained past that its for a reason and for the career minded you carry a disease!  Having more senior NCO & field grade officers than the established paper percentages is justified b/c in a emergency the military service will have trained experienced cadre on hand to form new units and/or expand training programs to increase the influx of junior officers and lower enlisted.  But its justification for the military personnel pyramid to be top heavy . . . though it might be said the Lyrans would suffer from a column rather than a rank structure pyramid.

Take what was said and magnify the problems for the pre-AFFC Lyran military.

Now the above two paragraphs are not likely in the BTU to apply to pre-Invasion mechwarriors and certainly not directly to the Clans (though they DO practice the most draconian Up or Out policy) so you are more likely to find it in armor and especially infantry units.  This MIGHT have been changing post-Invasion to the mechwarriors as the institutions shifted from family owner-operator nobility to academy graduates piloting state-owned machines.
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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #56 on: 24 March 2020, 17:55:30 »
The clan up or out policy is misdirected, though... it only focuses on tactical skills, and fails to recognize that operational and strategic level skills are fundamentally different.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #57 on: 24 March 2020, 19:20:40 »
The clan up or out policy is misdirected, though... it only focuses on tactical skills, and fails to recognize that operational and strategic level skills are fundamentally different.

  Every play a Clan campaign? The players tended to be very two-dimensional and nearly useless off the battlefield, even worse as administrators...which led to some hilarious gameplay.

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #58 on: 24 March 2020, 19:32:55 »
Hence proving my point...  ^-^

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Re: Infantry rules: After TW or Before TW?
« Reply #59 on: 25 March 2020, 03:58:55 »
Hence proving my point...  ^-^
  It makes you wonder how they even managed to leave the Homeworlds...