BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Novel and Sourcebook Reviews => Topic started by: abou on 23 March 2011, 19:45:56
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I recently managed to get my hands on a copy of Grave Covenant, which is great because I've been meaning to read all of the Twilight of the Clans series. However, I'm only three chapters in and I'm already starting to get annoyed. I can't tell if it's Stackpole's writing in general or just his characterizations of the major players we see.
Specifically, I'm bothered by what I see in the third chapter where Victor, Hohiro, Kai, Morgan, Jerry Cranston, and Theodore are having their conversation. It's not that there are people from different realms getting along -- if anything, that should be expected and it makes sense considering where the universe is at the time. It's not the characters themselves -- I like them all (at least when they're written by other writers). I'm not sure what it is, but it just doesn't sit right with me.
I think it comes down to Victor's training in what I think is Iaido or maybe it is Stackpole's channelling of the late 90s/early 00s zeitgeist where everyone was fascinated in everything Japanese and all internal monolog had to be melodramatic. This idea that Hanse Davion has this sort of ridiculous perception gap of his understanding of the Draconis Combine; that Hohiro teaches Victor how to use a Katana, but Victor teaches Hohiro boxing -- all of this represents Stackpole's inability to really deal with nuance. Everything has to be in absolutes.
This isn't just a dig at the Combine. You can just take a look at any other of Stackpole's books and the roles flip. I only mention those examples because I came across them in the past 30 minutes. I'm seriously supposed to believe that Victor hadn't been at least taught some form of fencing? Not even just sabre? But he has boxing? Again: absolutes of elegance vs. (at least perceived) brutishness.
So why is this in the Inner Sphere board? Well, I suppose it could have gone into the General board, but it's Stackpole's approach to Inner Sphere characters that I think turns people off to certain factions or turns them on to others. This goes all the way back to the Warrior Trilogy and continues up to the last book he's written. Many of these characters that were movers and shakers were fleshed out under his watch.
Stackpole's books do have a history of selling well. Maybe he just writes for his audience or maybe that's simply his style and it works for the audience. But I can't really be the only one who notices this, can I?
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Nope, I can't stand his writing either. It might sound odd, but I rarely feel like he likes what's he's writing. It feels more like he's someone who's been paid to do a job, and he's just not going to commit to much to it. I haven't looked at his political stuff, but I do kinda of wonder if it's same. That said there are worse BT authors.
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It's not just you. Stackpole does an awful job of conveying any kind of subtlety or nuance in anything he's ever done. It's just with Star Wars we didn't notice.
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It's not just you. Stackpole does an awful job of conveying any kind of subtlety or nuance in anything he's ever done. It's just with Star Wars we didn't notice.
Wow, no nuance about that sweeping statement.
Honestly, there aren't too many subtle themes anywhere in Battletech. Just last night I was reading Broken Blade by Steven Mohan and the short story just hits you over the head with the "moral" at the end. No show, just tell.
If you want some sort of complex fiction, go read Dune or something by Asimov.
Tangent:
Actually, now that I think about it, Stackpole writes rather plot driven novels. I know it's a tough distinction, but it seems like his characters are usually "riding the wave" in a way. Examples are Will in The Dragon Crown saga and Phelan in The Blood of Kerensky trilogy. I tend to like watching the story unfold, but perhaps you guys are the types that prefer strong character interaction?
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Fiction doesn't need to be laden with complex themes to be believable. Just look at how his characters talk. It's not a conversation, they just give speeches. People don't talk like that. You can't just have your characters come out and say how they feel. That makes me angry!
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Tangent:
Actually, now that I think about it, Stackpole writes rather plot driven novels. I know it's a tough distinction, but it seems like his characters are usually "riding the wave" in a way. Examples are Will in The Dragon Crown saga and Phelan in The Blood of Kerensky trilogy. I tend to like watching the story unfold, but perhaps you guys are the types that prefer strong character interaction?
Pretty good description of it. Taking out personal feelings (I read one of his letters where he talks about fans who dislike the direction of the battletech books and how "even if you could do it better, you really couldn't because all of your ideas are based off of my ideas"....coming from someone who writes for multiple lines that were created by other people, just seemed kinda cocky and hypocritical, end gripe.) I always thought his "storys" were decent, but not a single character he wrote ever became a favorite of mine. They all seemed very basic "here is the confident/ brash leader", "here is the sinister scheemer guy", etc.
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"even if you could do it better, you really couldn't because all of your ideas are based off of my ideas"
That's not even remotely what he said.
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That's not even remotely what he said.
I read it long ago, and paraphrased it (horribly, obviously, ;D), but after reading it, that was the feeling and tone I remembered getting out of it. At the same time I was reading that, I was giving one of his original fantasy novels a try and ended up putting it down about halfway finished because it was horrible. Those two things combined had left a bad taste from Stackpole in my mouth. That said, I never disliked any of the BT novels he wrote and I'm not trying to bash Stackpole (in hindsight, probably should have just left that bit out of the initial post, to prevent that, so sorry).
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That's not even remotely what he said.
Here it is:
<<Don’t write me telling me your ideas of how the universe could be done better. First off, if you approach things logically and build on what’s been laid out in the novels, your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas, since I’m the one who has been layering in the foreshadowing and hints upon which you’ll build your future. Second, I do this for a living. If everyone could do what I do, I’d be selling bacon-cheeseburger heart attacks at some fast food joint. It’s not that your ideas won’t be good, its that they won’t be good enough to make the universe sing and scream. Third, and very important, you don’t know enough of the other things going on to be able to provide suggestions that will work to shape the universe into what we need it to be. Lastly, you’re not paying me, so I can’t listen to your input anyway.>>
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I’ve usually enjoyed Michael A. Stackpole’s work. It’s been a while since I read any of his novels, but I enjoyed the Warrior Trilogy, Blood of Kerensky, Bred for War, Dark Age, etc.
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It seems to me that Stackpole writes better and more interesting "Bad guys" than "Good guys". His "good guys" tends to me Mary Sueish.
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Here it is:
<<Don’t write me telling me your ideas of how the universe could be done better. First off, if you approach things logically and build on what’s been laid out in the novels, your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas, since I’m the one who has been layering in the foreshadowing and hints upon which you’ll build your future. Second, I do this for a living. If everyone could do what I do, I’d be selling bacon-cheeseburger heart attacks at some fast food joint. It’s not that your ideas won’t be good, its that they won’t be good enough to make the universe sing and scream. Third, and very important, you don’t know enough of the other things going on to be able to provide suggestions that will work to shape the universe into what we need it to be. Lastly, you’re not paying me, so I can’t listen to your input anyway.>>
Now I remember why I dislike this guy
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Now I remember why I dislike this guy
because he says he has worked hard at his craft for decades, puts tons of thought into his work, and tries to keep plot threads well thought out? or was it that last line of "because you are not paying me I can not use your ideas." That is just a hard legal fact any first year BAR student can tell you.
Mr. Stackpoles statment, though a little curt, is pretty much the same as Herbs many "Hello, for various reasons I can not take your suggestions into account. Thank you"
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because he says he has worked hard at his craft for decades, puts tons of thought into his work, and tries to keep plot threads well thought out? or was it that last line of "because you are not paying me I can not use your ideas." That is just a hard legal fact any first year BAR student can tell you.
Mr. Stackpoles statment, though a little curt, is pretty much the same as Herbs many "Hello, for various reasons I can not take your suggestions into account. Thank you"
<<Snip from Mr. Stackpole's statement>>
<<First off, if you approach things logically and build on what’s been laid out in the novels, your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas, since I’m the one who has been layering in the foreshadowing and hints upon which you’ll build your future.>>
When he comes to the conclusion that your ideas can't possibly be good enough to use and if they were, they were his ideas already, that comes off as pretty arrogant. Despite beliefs to the contrary, no one has the cornered the market on good ideas in the Battletech universe :)
-Andrew
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"It's not that your ideas won't be good, it's that they won't be good enough to make the universe sing and scream"...
I've read his Battletech novels, he's not making the universe sing or scream either, so for him to take the time to actually put this nonsense out there is ridiculous. He's the last person who should be crowing about his chops as a writer.
Just an opinion mind you, if you like the man's work then more power to you. I'm more discerning when it comes to what I enjoy and out of all the authors who have written in the setting, Stackpole is strictly middle tier.
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Stackpole writing technique is essentially based on following ideas:
First, he has rule that each character uses roughly 30000 words per novel. Thus he at first assigns a set number of main characters based on total words available. Let's assume 100000 words and thus see three characters and call them A, B and C.
Second, he invents some kind of major conflict in end and what character A/B/C will do during it. The next part of his technique is deciding what kind of characterization A, B and C need to be. Stackpole starts from assumption that all characters are essentially finished and they do not really need to grow anything more (i.e. their personalities do not change during the novel). This line of thinking has profound effect on actual writing and plot development.
Third, Stackpole divides his book to three parts on 25/50/25 for introduction, development and conclusion. This is fairly regular method of writing.
Since Stackpole's characters are already ready, he employs method of revealing more and more of characters. His chief writing idea is that readers are so impressed on characters when they are first shown that we want to learn more of them. Subsequent chapters are used to reveal more of things of characters and their established skills, persona and resources. Characters A, B and C often have gophers (which he ties to make likeable to reader by making them "everymen" ) who ask stupid questions and/or comment on actions A, B and C do to explain them and make A, B and C more likeable to readers.
This writing style relies heavily on:
1) readers liking mystical/cool newly introduced characters.
2) readers accepting role of a gopher and liking her to follow A, B or C.
3) new revelations of characters A, B or C being actually cool/mysterious.
In my mind Stackpole's writing technique's primary problem is that he has discarded the concept of character growth as a persona which is generally accepted method in real world novel writing. He is also very bad in writing dialog (which comes across as speeches), he uses extensively internal monologues (that both sides occasionally seem to instinctively understand) and his descriptions of women in general and romantic involvement in particular is downright awful.
Stackpole's prose is usually described as "pedestrian". I do believe this description is fairly accurate as he uses technique of one main sentence followed by further elaboration. This is common writing method but there is plenty of word bloat in descriptions -many of which could have been eliminated to make book read faster.
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Here it is:
<<Don’t write me telling me your ideas of how the universe could be done better. First off, if you approach things logically and build on what’s been laid out in the novels, your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas, since I’m the one who has been layering in the foreshadowing and hints upon which you’ll build your future. Second, I do this for a living. If everyone could do what I do, I’d be selling bacon-cheeseburger heart attacks at some fast food joint. It’s not that your ideas won’t be good, its that they won’t be good enough to make the universe sing and scream. Third, and very important, you don’t know enough of the other things going on to be able to provide suggestions that will work to shape the universe into what we need it to be. Lastly, you’re not paying me, so I can’t listen to your input anyway.>>
Yep. That's the one (and it looks like my paraphrasing wasn't as horrible as was thought ???). I thought this sounded pretty arrogant and condescending (see specifically the "...your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas..." part) coming from an authors who's greatest claim to fame is writing in other people's settings. Then add in the fact that I pick up one of his original novels and couldn't finish it because it was boring and could not hold my interest and you can see where my opinion of the guy went way down. The last statement about "not paying me" didn't bother me at all, it is the rest of the little "better than you" rant that I took umbrage with.
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Here it is:
<<Don’t write me telling me your ideas of how the universe could be done better. First off, if you approach things logically and build on what’s been laid out in the novels, your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas, since I’m the one who has been layering in the foreshadowing and hints upon which you’ll build your future. Second, I do this for a living. If everyone could do what I do, I’d be selling bacon-cheeseburger heart attacks at some fast food joint. It’s not that your ideas won’t be good, its that they won’t be good enough to make the universe sing and scream. Third, and very important, you don’t know enough of the other things going on to be able to provide suggestions that will work to shape the universe into what we need it to be. Lastly, you’re not paying me, so I can’t listen to your input anyway.>>
This is statement is so arrogant and stupid for so many reasons, it boggles the mind. I have some free time, so let me break it down for everyone.
Don’t write me telling me your ideas of how the universe could be done better ... Third, and very important, you don’t know enough of the other things going on to be able to provide suggestions that will work to shape the universe into what we need it to be. Lastly, you’re not paying me, so I can’t listen to your input anyway.
These are about the only parts of his rant that I can sympathize with. Constant hounding by fanboys is probably pretty irritating.
First off, if you approach things logically and build on what’s been laid out in the novels, your ideas for what should happen in the future are likely my ideas, since I’m the one who has been layering in the foreshadowing and hints upon which you’ll build your future.
BattleTech is a massive universe that could go go in numerous directions regardless of anyone's "foreshadowing". I'm sure the universe probably could have spun off into dozens of equally logical directions at any point in time.
And I can assure you that I for one wouldn't have make Focht a dribbling idiot who thought the Clans were aliens and Terra was insignificant. I wouldn't have made the Refusal War such a convoluted mess. I wouldn't have made Phelan Kell such a genius that he was able to rise from Spheroid bondsman to saKhan over the course of three years. And I certainly wouldn't have given Yorinaga and Morgan superpowers, even if Stackpole foreshadowed it.
Second, I do this for a living. If everyone could do what I do, I’d be selling bacon-cheeseburger heart attacks at some fast food joint. It’s not that your ideas won’t be good, its that they won’t be good enough to make the universe sing and scream.
Uwe Boll directs movies for a living. Tila Tequila sings and acts for a living. Just because you something professionally doesn't mean that you're good at it. Not everyone could write a BattleTech novel, but a lot of people could, and many of them would do a pretty good job of it. At the very least, unlike Stackpole, they probably wouldn't make the universe scream for mercy.
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What I took from the snippet was more a "I am paid to write these books, please stop trying to tell me how to. And though you may have an idea, if it is based on my work (which lets be honest, most will be) then I more than likely have thought about the idea and may even already be trying to implement it".
Granted, my version is much more diplomatic (?) in its statement, but that is how I viewed it... Not so much "my idea is better than yours, and even if yours was good it was my idea first"...
Just my 2 cents. And I do think he is an ok writer, but not a fantastic writer. I prefer many others over him, but to be honest I also like him over a great many I have read... So instead of bashing a guy who has helped this game so much, why not just post things in a more positive and constructive way. For example -
Instead of saying, he is arrogant and does not listen to people...
Try, I think he could do better if he maybe accepted input from other people to enhance his work...
This might not only net a better way getting ideas put into action but also much more likely to get to the person intended in a manner that does not put them on guard and thus allows for them to consider it as a way to improve themselves.
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I enjoy reading his books the first time around due to the new setting, new characters and new storyline but I usually cannot go back to them for a second try.
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I too enjoy his books. They might not be the best books, but they aren't the worst by far.
And the only book I could never finish was Highlander Gambit.
Also his characters do make developement, some just slower than others. I still enjoy the story of Kai overcoming his self doubt during the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.
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Reading what Mike Stackpole writes about being Mike Stackpole has always made the reading of things written by Mike Stackpole less enjoyable. His screeds at the outset of the clickyverse helped me to walk away from BTech for ten years with no regrets.
Yet, I don't mind his books. They're quick, pulpy reads that are fairly engaging. His ego, though, terrifies me.
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He comes across as far less arrogant than many fanfic writers, though.
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I have one BT novel by Stackpole.....its Malicious Intent, i've only read it once, though it is an interesting book
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Stackpole may not be a nobel prize candidate with his writing. But honestly, folks: BattleTech and Star Wars are pulp fiction universes - it's hardly fair to accuse a successful pulp fiction writer of writing pulp fiction. A few books have tried to be literature, and the fans hate them for it (c.f. Far Country is a good book in its own right but violated the BattleTech aesthetics; Ideal War is a bit too realistic about war to be enjoyable).
Like any author, Stackpole has some areas where he's better and some where he's weaker.
His superhero characters fit the setting and comply with the rule of cool, even though I agree that he overdoes it. The Phantom 'Mech was a major slip on the BT aesthetics, and we're slowly purging it from the universe into the "in-universe myth" corner.
Stackpole's strength, imho, is that he can think up good stories and deliver memorable moments. The Warrior trilogy treated the 4th SW much much better than "Hulk Smash", and Hanse's wedding gift scene is epic. The Blood of Kerensky dramaturgy was good enough to keep me entertained throughout the books although I really seriously loathe the stillborn concepts of Clan "culture".
(To wit, my favourite piece of Stackpole writing is Bard's Tale III: Thief of Fate. Here he only had to provide overall storyline and setting, without characters, and my teenage self was well impressed with the story.)
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The Blood of Kerensky dramaturgy was good enough to keep me entertained throughout the books although I really seriously loathe the stillborn concepts of Clan "culture".
Yeah, but clan culture was really fleshed out in the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy by Thurston. Those are also by far my favorite Battletech novels.
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Just my 2 cents but I've never really minded Stackpole that much, he seems a bit formulaic, but then again we are enjoying 'guilty pleasure' literature. My grandpa and step-grandpa couldn't get enough of Louis La'Moure (i probably misspelled that..sorry) for the same reason, even though its also very formulaic. I personally prefer William H. Keith to Stackpole, but I'll still enjoy his novels nonetheless, even though I agree with the above gripes...
Do we really need our characters monologueing during converstaion? Do we really need three different versions of the Morgan/Yorinaga duel? I mean, I read the first version, did you think I forgot?
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I pretty much blame Stackpole for everything. 25% of the time, its true. Good enough for me.
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Yeah, but clan culture was really fleshed out in the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy by Thurston. Those are also by far my favorite Battletech novels.
Shows how much one's mileage can vary. I picked up the omnibus edition a while back and it just didn't do much for me. May have to do with Thurston ultimately never managing to convince me that Aidan's in-universe detractors, while harsh, were anything but right all along...
In contrast, while Stackpole's writing style definitely has its quirks, his books have managed to keep me entertained pretty reliably. And in BT fiction, that's really all I ask. :)
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I just want someone to write another book like 'surrender your dreams'
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Shows how much one's mileage can vary. I picked up the omnibus edition a while back and it just didn't do much for me. May have to do with Thurston ultimately never managing to convince me that Aidan's in-universe detractors, while harsh, were anything but right all along...
They were, initially. Aidan failed because he was overconfident. He learned, he grew, he got better, and he got another chance. Its not the most brilliant piece of literature, but it is a solid example of what people call "character development" which you are unlikely to find in a Stackpole novel.
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Stackpole could be worse, Weber comes to mind..
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They were, initially. Aidan failed because he was overconfident. He learned, he grew, he got better, and he got another chance. Its not the most brilliant piece of literature, but it is a solid example of what people call "character development" which you are unlikely to find in a Stackpole novel.
To be quite frank, I don't remember seeing much of it in the Jade Phoenix books either -- or at least not in Aidan himself, though I'll grant that the fiat certainly seemed to be strong in him. I'll re-read them one of these days to check, I suppose.
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But I can't really be the only one who notices this, can I?
No. I'm not much of a fan. I get why he's popular in the novel line, but he's not quite the style I'd prefer. It doesn't make his stuff awful, just not something I care for that much. I also wasn't a big fan of some of his online communications, or the single interaction I had with him in person.
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The Warrior trilogy treated the 4th SW much much better than "Hulk Smash"
When did he ever do that? My first hint that the heroes aren't in any real danger is when no combatants on the other side even get names.
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Stackpole could be worse, Weber comes to mind..
Hey just because a guy named Robes Pierre starting a revolution on a planet called Nouevau Paris goes beyond forshadowing into the realm of "well duh"...
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I know I'm going to get flamed... oh well.
If there was no Stackpole, there very well might be no Battletech today. There, I said it.
Stackpole's novels pushed this universe forward. Whenever FASA needed someone to write the story, they went to Stackpole.
Most of the other novels were one off stories, he made the universe come alive.
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Though this is true, time has shown that Stackpole was not, and since he is still a semi-active writer continues not to be, irreplacable. Yes, he was called on to do the core line of novels that did drive the main story of the universe, from the Warrior books on. But, most of Twilight of the Clans was done by others, with Stackpole's offerings being some of the weaker offerings from that series to my mind (this coming from someone who genuinely enjoyed most of his earlier works, in both BT and Star Wars). Loren L Coleman was called on to finish the core line, after having done excelent work previously, and 'wrap up' the pre-Jihad era, in effect replacing Stackpole.
That is my key problem with Stackpole's little tirade. "If everyone could do what I do..." The fact is that not everyone has to be able to do it, but just one or two people, and its not hard to tell who they are and are not. I can't throw a very good fast ball, but I can see which pitchers are the good ones and which are not. I can tell that some authors bring more to the table than Stackpole does. I've seen several people from these boards who've broken through to join the writing staff either by getting their stories published on Battle Corps or else in some other way, so there's every indication that while quality professional writing is a marketable skill, its not one that Stackpole or any other author has a monopoly on.
Sure, I agree on the third point. We know BT is centeraly driven, that there is a line devolper who coordanates things and many authors working together, so it would be dificult for someone to fully reason out just what any given next move in the storyline should be (though the DA's existance makes it a bit easier). But, that very fact undermines his other point, which is that the ideas are his, and that he's the one who makes the universe sing. The universe sings not because of a few books by one author, but because of the cooperative efforts of many people, doing writing, devolpment, fact checking, and many other things to bring a large spectrum of products to fruition, including a large and veried amount of fiction. Its not just about Stackpole, or Coleman, or anyone else. So the notion that we'd be picking up on 'his' hints or 'his' storylines is just sillyness, unless he had begun a series of his own in a universe of his own, which despite his claims that he has such abilities, I'm not aware that he has done.
Now, like I said, I did really enjoy Warrior and BoK and even X Wing. But, I enjoyed the words, that does not mean I have to enjoy the man who wrote them.
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That's not even remotely what he said.
I read that a long long time ago. What he said did come across as a little bit arrogant. But the point he was tring to get across was that if we were guessing were the universe was going it was because we were catching on to the little hints that he and other wrighters were leaveing. He was right with what he said. However as heated as things were at the time it would have been better had he said nothing.
As to the complaints about him not putting his all in because he was being paid to do a job. I am not saying there is some truth to that. But I will say this it would have been much easier to give your all had FASA been paying him. Unfortantly he stoped doing BT for a long time because he wasn't getting paid. So they were lucky to get anything out of him. That is not a knock on his character. I don't think anyone does there best work not knowing if they will ever get paid.
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Let me add this at the time the fan base was rapid when he made those remarks. It would have been better had he left his mouth shout. Not because he wasn't justified in saying something. I would have heck I was one of the rapid mad fans. But the professionals like stackpole should have kept there mouth shut because they are the pros and the fans are the consumers. Making remarks that have a chance of agervating consumers is never a good ideal. That said I still enjoyed his novels. For the time they were pretty good. Over time I think our expectations grow. Just like we expect more from a source book than we did a decade ago.
All and all I am willing to at this point give him a pass on remarks made a decade ago.
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If there was no Stackpole, there very well might be no Battletech today. There, I said it.
I see your point, but technically we don't actually know that. Somebody else would have been called up to write the core line. Maybe they would have been better, maybe they would have been worse. All in all, I will take the devil we know.
My biggest gripe with Stackpole is not his two-dimensional characters. Its the lack of flavor he provides for the background setting. With Stackpole you get well-written prose and a tight plot involving fairly static characters, but you never get much of a feel for the larger universe. The most information I think I ever got was that people near the Capellan border eat at Chinese-American restaurants. All in all, Stackpole tends to present a world outside of the mech cockpit that is virtually identical to a boring version of our world today. It has nothing of the neo-feudal flare that you see in the sourcebooks or the writing of other authors (e.g. Milan).
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I know I'm going to get flamed... oh well.
If there was no Stackpole, there very well might be no Battletech today. There, I said it.
Stackpole's novels pushed this universe forward. Whenever FASA needed someone to write the story, they went to Stackpole.
Most of the other novels were one off stories, he made the universe come alive.
Agreed, I am currently re-reading the Warrior Trilogy and loving every bit of it. Its more exciting than I remember it being. I like Stackpole, you want a bad BT/MW writer, Martin Delrio and his Proving Ground Trilogy pretty much sets the bar.
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I think Stackpole and Delrio are equally skilled writers.
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I see your point, but technically we don't actually know that. Somebody else would have been called up to write the core line. Maybe they would have been better, maybe they would have been worse. All in all, I will take the devil we know.
My biggest gripe with Stackpole is not his two-dimensional characters. Its the lack of flavor he provides for the background setting. With Stackpole you get well-written prose and a tight plot involving fairly static characters, but you never get much of a feel for the larger universe. The most information I think I ever got was that people near the Capellan border eat at Chinese-American restaurants. All in all, Stackpole tends to present a world outside of the mech cockpit that is virtually identical to a boring version of our world today. It has nothing of the neo-feudal flare that you see in the sourcebooks or the writing of other authors (e.g. Milan).
Personally, in reading the Warrior Trilogy I was always blown away by how well it evoked such a neo-feudal atmosphere, at least for the scenes set in the LyrCom and FedSuns. (The scene with Morgan Kell and that 'all-access pass' Archon Katrina wrote him being a case in point.) Similarly, that original trilogy's portrayal of old-school 'Mech-bashing fights came across in a very visceral way that felt authentic to Big Stompy Robots blasting bits off each other; that Stackpole managed to convey that visceral sensation well enough that you didn't care about hearing the dice roll in the background is evidence of at least some talent, IMO. :D
It was when the timeline moved on to the Blood of Kerensky trilogy and the Clan era that the neo-feudal atmosphere of the setting and (to an extent) the visceral feel of the combat started to fade away, at least in my mind. I'm not sure how much time Stackpole had to write the later novels, as opposed to the Warrior Trilogy, but I get the impression that he was on rather stricter deadlines (and wordcounts) as time went on, which might account for part of it, and I don't imagine that the increased scope of the works helped matters either.
And, of course, pretty much nothing can compare to the awesomeness that is Wolves on the Border. [notworthy] Saying that those four novels represent the high-water mark of BT fiction writing might be overstating the case... but I really couldn't tell you by how much. :-X
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I was talking about mech-battle flare. I was talking about everything but that. You know, when pilots get out of the cockpit and interact with their environment. Every planet feels the same in Stackpole's novels.
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I was talking about mech-battle flare. I was talking about everything but that. You know, when pilots get out of the cockpit and interact with their environment. Every planet feels the same in Stackpole's novels.
And they don't in the other authors' novels...how, exactly? It's not like we ever really see much of any given planet, after all -- usually, it's just the capital city, maybe an outlying settlement or two, and any battlefields created by the obligatory combat scenes. That's not really a whole lot to base an impression of an entire world on.
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See Victor Milan.
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See Victor Milan.
Oh, I've read Close Quarters and Hearts of Chaos. However, I'm not altogether convinced that the difference is one of style so much as simply one of focus. After all, the main viewpoint character of these two novels is a street-smart scout; in following her in her daily work for 'her' mercenary regiment, of course we're going to get to see the worlds she visits through different eyes than those of Stackpole's (and many others') 'Mechjocks, spymasters, and occasional heads of state. And even here, my earlier point about not really seeing a lot of a given planet still stands -- in all of Hearts of Chaos, what, if anything, is it that in your opinion makes Towne distinct from any other random planet out there on which Plot Happens?
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Kevin Killiany has always impressed me with how well he fleshes out his settings.
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I'm not sure trying to flesh out individual worlds is a worthwhile goal for novels that span multiple worlds, or even multiple nations. Every planet is going to be reasonably adapted for human life. On a human scale, things like "this planet has 5 large continents, two of which are mostly desert", are not going to be as relevant as the tactical layout of the local spaceport where the mechs are going to battle. The geography stuff is best left to sourcebooks, IMO.
Anyway, I enjoyed Stackpole a lot more when I was 11-13 or so (The "David Eddings is a great writer" phase :P). Dramatic, world-altering stories focused on individual mythically influential characters. As you age, the supercharacters start to wear thin due to their lack of realism (and probably because we can't relate to them as growing up shows us how our own lives are much more limited).
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Anyway, I enjoyed Stackpole a lot more when I was 11-13 or so (The "David Eddings is a great writer" phase :P). Dramatic, world-altering stories focused on individual mythically influential characters. As you age, the supercharacters start to wear thin due to their lack of realism (and probably because we can't relate to them as growing up shows us how our own lives are much more limited).
Ironically, the thing I've found most wearying in BT fiction as I've grown older weren't the "supercharacters"(I seem to have a pretty high tolerance for the type in general anyway; probably helps me enjoy my escapism more than reading about the misadventures of yet another Everyman would) so much as the constant warfare and inter-faction squabbling that never actually ever gets anywhere. It may be the governing theme of the universe, it's probably all too depressingly realistic, and it's definitely a fine excuse to add some fluff to a tabletop game ("Today, let's replay the historical battle for the city of Foobar on planet Snafu. You get to be Clan Funny Animal this time if you want, and I'll play House Generic Ethnic Stereotype.")...but in the extended run, I've found that it just makes for boring reading, and I've lost most of my earlier interest in the canon storyline as a result.
That's possibly starting to drift a bit of topic, though.
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It recently occurred to me that if you don't like Stackpole's characters out the gate you likely never will. There's not going to be some amazing new dynamic that totally shows the character in a new light, just new things that they fight or some new ability/weapon they get. If you told Stackpole his characters lack depth, his counter-argument seems like it would be to list off the things they can/have done.
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It recently occurred to me that if you don't like Stackpole's characters out the gate you likely never will. There's not going to be some amazing new dynamic that totally shows the character in a new light, just new things that they fight or some new ability/weapon they get. If you told Stackpole his characters lack depth, his counter-argument seems like it would be to list off the things they can/have done.
There are a couple of exceptions which prove the rule, though, both involving Phelan Kell/Ward/Kell. For a MechWarrior punted from the Nagelring then rocketed up to the Khanship of Clan Wolf, he never struck me as possessing a real 'killer instinct'; he was always the merciful one, the guy who looked out for the way that involved the least possible loss of life for all sides involved, the one who spared his enemies so they could be redeemed/useful to his faction...
... and then we reach the end of Natural Selection, where he solves a thorny political problem with a simple "BOOM! Headshot!" A character with his demonstrated moral stance embracing a utilitarian expedient worthy of Jack Bauer? That was kind of a shocking swerve, IMO - and the first time I actually found Phelan to be anything other than another flavour of 'bland', because he actually did something effective.
... and then we read Grave Covenant, where the wrong words from 'Archon' Katherine Steiner-Davion make him ask "Does Phelan have to choke a bitch?" Moment of rage or not, that struck me as the first time Phelan Kell thought/reacted like a 'might makes right' Clanner, not a Spheroid in Wolf uniform - and again, because he achieved something (putting the fear of him into Katherine, curbing at least one aspect of her scheming for a while), his getting a scene or so as Billy Badass did a lot to get him over with me as a reader.
YMMV, naturally.
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You see character development, but from where I'm standing it looks more like Stackpole has problems with consistent characterization.
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All of Phelan's Nagelring stuff and Kell Hound background is basically backstory, though. He gets captured in like his first scene, yeah?
Basically starts out as a prisoner and raises not by adapting (remember even as Khan how he kept his genes out of the breeding program until Ranna got a bloodname?) but by showing them how hard he is.
Phelan might seem different if his narrative had started with the Nagelring and not been flashback stuff, but the dude latches on to the Clan system really fast without any question as to the validity of a might-makes-right system.
To me it's not that he has adapted to the Clan system as much as he's just found some society where he can settle everything with violence and is really happy about that.
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I guess i always looked at the audience that the novels were written for. Most likely early teens. Comic book plotlines it is, Faulkner it ain't. Most the people that have a real issue with it, probably have outgrown it. Yeah the writing is highly formulaic, he's building Fords, not Ferraris. Kinda like that deep tortured soul music you listened to as a 13 year old, now you look back and wonder why a guy in his mid 20s is complaining about living with his parents...
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Didn't stakpole write somewhere that, while the lack of being paid was a contributing reason, he also
wanted to stop writing Battletech because he realized he loved torturing Victor too much?
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I know at the library today, I threw away every l book of his we had that wasn't Star Wars (and we only kept those as they are in the children's section...) Due to space requirements in our Sci-Fi/Fantasy section we are removing everything not checked out in the past 24 months. His were like 36...
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I know at the library today, I threw away every l book of his we had that wasn't Star Wars (and we only kept those as they are in the children's section...) Due to space requirements in our Sci-Fi/Fantasy section we are removing everything not checked out in the past 24 months. His were like 36...
The people in your town have good taste in books.
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I know at the library today, I threw away every l book of his we had that wasn't Star Wars (and we only kept those as they are in the children's section...) Due to space requirements in our Sci-Fi/Fantasy section we are removing everything not checked out in the past 24 months. His were like 36...
Bad library...no "Friends of the library" sale this time of year? They throw out books?
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Well I'm sure they will try to get sold. Imma not hold my breath...
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Not about to let this conversation die. I've made my way almost to the end of the Twilight of the Clans series and damn! has this been an inconsistent series. I am struggling to get through Prince of Havoc. If I thought Grave Covenant was irritating, I was not ready for Freebirth. I remember liking Thurston's other works, but Freebirth really needed some editorial direction. There were cool moments, but still.
And if I wasn't ready for Freebirth, you can imagine how well Prince of Havoc is sitting with me. Gressman has his own problems as a writer, but I could enjoy his books for what they were. This though...
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I'm about halfway through my first-time read through of the Warrior Trilogy, and I just kind of feel silly reading it. It definitely is pulpy and I get it was probably written more for young adults, but the characters are so cardboard-thin I can't get hooked into them or identify with them at all. I came into Battletech through the Dark Age era with the clix game, and while most of those books can draw the same criticisms, I was a bit younger then and probably a little more tolerant of the cheese. I read the Jade Falcon trilogy about 10 years ago and really liked that one too.
What's interesting to me is that I just picked up the Battlecorps hardcopy anthology, Vol 1, and so far I'm really digging the stories, actually giving up on finishing Riposte for the time being. The stories are really well written, and just seem to work...better...in a short story format.
So what do you think in general of the novel format for Battletech versus a short story format?
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I really enjoyed the novels. Stackpole doesn't bother me. Then again I like any kind of stories for Battletech.
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I had a BattleCorps subscription twice, but didn't continue with it because I couldn't sit myself down to take advantage of all the stories. Why get a magazine if you aren't going to read it?
What I did read though, I liked. I also have the first anthology and am looking to get the second. I think what they've managed to do with the shorter stories and with the authors doing the writing, is step up their game with more experimentation. Many of those stories are definitely aimed at a more literate demographic. We're still not talking Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis level, but it's definitely improved.
Then again, I haven't read every word and so I don't know if some authors like to do the Stackpole thing of picking a favorite word and using it over and over again. Was it Malicious Intent or something where he just kept using "comport"? Man, that got old.
Also, as a side note -- and I would never have thought I'd say this for a real or fictional character -- but I am glad Word of Blake gassed the Knights of the Inner Sphere. Paul Masters is so freaking annoying.
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I am struggling to get through Prince of Havoc.
IIRC I tossed that one across the living room in frustration a few times myself. Is that the novel which features a scene near the begiing with Focht, Victor, Trent, and a Nova Cat Khan?
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Yeah, that would be the one. Those battle scenes are just awful.
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Yeah, that would be the one. Those battle scenes are just awful.
OK I am thinking of the correct book. Thanks! That was the scene where a Com Guard officer is betrayed by both Victor and Focht. I think that was what caused the first toss of the book across the room. ;)
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OK I am thinking of the correct book. Thanks! That was the scene where a Com Guard officer is betrayed by both Victor and Focht. I think that was what caused the first toss of the book across the room. ;)
And Karianna Schmidt basicly fighting stupid and out of character. The second the Genyosha broke Zell, it should have been out the
window, with concentrated fire on the dezgra melee 'mechs first..
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OK I am thinking of the correct book. Thanks! That was the scene where a Com Guard officer is betrayed by both Victor and Focht. I think that was what caused the first toss of the book across the room. ;)
He deserved a better fate then to disappear fighting Ice Hellions(or was it Fire Mandrills?)
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What I did read though, I liked. I also have the first anthology and am looking to get the second.
I loved the first anthology. I have to warn you: in my opinion the second one was a big step back. Besides the stories not being as compelling or interesting, the editing was atrocious. In numerous places, the editors notes are left in, sentences are chopped or incomplete, etc.
There are several good stories in the 2nd anthology, just isn't as good as the first.
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I loved the first anthology. I have to warn you: in my opinion the second one was a big step back. Besides the stories not being as compelling or interesting, the editing was atrocious. In numerous places, the editors notes are left in, sentences are chopped or incomplete, etc.
There are several good stories in the 2nd anthology, just isn't as good as the first.
emphasis mine.
Really? How did that get past the, um, editors?! I don't think I have ever seen a print book with that.
Oops!
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Ah, Prince of Havoc. That was a frustrating book from a lot of angles, and not all of it was Stackpole's fault. This was in the Twilight of FASA, and they had not been paying him his royalties, they cut his contract percentage (at a time when he was on the NYT Bestseller list, and the payments should be going up,) they had cut his page count and given him a hard limit, ROC had apparently farmed his cover art out to a middle school boy who loved the BT cartoon, and he had been orphaned by several editors at ROC. And he thought that because of all the above, as much as he loved working in BT and was loyal to the brand, it would be his last book for them. (Well, for FASA at least.) So no one was happy at all with that one.
From a story standpoint, the whole logic of the Great Refusal didn't make any sense, not even from the questionable logic of Clan thinking. And the Wolves getting a pass because they didn't lose? What? And then Focht, with the Invader Galaxy, which was designed to fight as if they were Claners, chooses to use no captured Clan 'Mechs and has to march far enough they have combat losses from the walk, and then forgets everything they know about fighting Clanners. I know they had to give Pryde the win to because she is the “future of the Falconsâ€, and the Falcons needed a win to keep them from getting killed off as a Clan, but really, that could have been better handled.
Oh, and don't get me started on how Katherine/Katrina ends up with all of the FC and Victor does nothing but take up gardening. I know that the Civil War was going to be the Next Big Thing, and they didn't want to dig into it yet, but that just fell flat.
Cripes, considering I haven't read the book in years, the bad parts apparently stuck! ;D
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Oh, and don't get me started on how Katherine/Katrina ends up with all of the FC and Victor does nothing but take up gardening. I know that the Civil War was going to be the Next Big Thing, and they didn't want to dig into it yet, but that just fell flat.
All else is granted, but wasn't the gardening thing just a cover for his shift to ComStar?
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Not to start out, no. He was considering retiring to a life of contemplative gardening which was an honorable career for many former warlords in feudal Japan, and as seeing he is now Japaneses, it seemed a good fit. Or something like that. His friends showed up in dribs and drabs to tell him to stop being a yutz and get back on the horse and all that, and he told them, “no, I am a gardener now,†then Focht said “Nice garden. I have a job opening,†and that was that.
Though I admit the big reveal was a Crowning Moment of Awesome. Almost worth reading the book for.
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I try to read Stackpole like a sourcebook. His style of expository dialogue and character interactions is pretty weak, but it conveys information. I find I can be more patient reading him that way.
Having said that, I do like his "Focht". I think he's decently developed. The rest, meh, they're just vehicles to get me information. Live or die, I don't really care.
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Michael Stackpole may be the greatest author in the history of publishing. He's managed to sell the same novel several dozen times.
That said, he is what he is, a serial writer, a pulp fictionist. He's not going to give you the depth of a Bradbury or a Stephenson, but he's going to give you a pot boiler that should entertain you for your eight-and-change. I'd never, ever buy a Stackpole Hardback, but his paperbacks have been good paperbacks.
It is rare to even have serials try to give an outstanding depth to the stories in fear they'll make the rest look bad. For the most part, Star Wars has been fairly consistant (with the exception of Black Fleet) in terms of writing quality (if not plot consistancy). On the other hand, Star Trek's problem is that every time that the Reeves-Stevens wrote a book, all the others seemed a bit... stupid. And in all fairness after purging my library, many were.
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And Karianna Schmidt basicly fighting stupid and out of character. The second the Genyosha broke Zell, it should have been out the
window, with concentrated fire on the dezgra melee 'mechs first..
A Home Clan that's isolated even by Home Clan standards does something dumb vis a vis the IS? Naw.
It was being fluffed at the time that the supposed "dezgra tactics" used by the IS were suspected by people like the Blood Spirits and Ice Hellions to just be excuses for the Invading Clans' lack of success and that they didn't actually translate to a battlefield advantage. Cause you know, fighting fairly always makes you more likely to win.
Long story short? The Blood Spirits cut with the dull side of the knife.
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A Home Clan that's isolated even by Home Clan standards does something dumb vis a vis the IS? Naw.
It was being fluffed at the time that the supposed "dezgra tactics" used by the IS were suspected by people like the Blood Spirits and Ice Hellions to just be excuses for the Invading Clans' lack of success and that they didn't actually translate to a battlefield advantage. Cause you know, fighting fairly always makes you more likely to win.
Long story short? The Blood Spirits cut with the dull side of the knife.
Except, of course, it was a Defensive battle, and Blood Spirits already knew that using "dezgra" tactics, like concentrated
fire, etc, DID translate to a battlefield advantage, since they had not used Zell on York in a couple centuries. I would consider
the natural reaction of a Blood Spirit Warrior, let alone their Khan, on the first violation of Zellbrigen to have been "Foul, foul!
Dezgra!" and then all bets of honourable combat go out the window.
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Stackpole could be worse, Weber comes to mind..
Here a really sick/great idea! Have Stackpole to write one novel for Honorverse and Weber to write one for Battletech!
I have seen worse sci-fi writing, (novel version of Dawn of War comes to mind), admittedly, Stackpole tend glorified certain characters and cardboard others and continuities errors, but this isn't solely his fault, other Battletech writers too are biased on certain factions (Steiner, Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon) and people (Chris Archer, Kells). All I can say is Battletech is a huge and ongoing saga, and I like all nuance and flaws.
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The quality of work by Stackpole does seem to decline over time, but to me he is the defining author of battletech as the 2 major turning points (4th SW and CLan invasion) were covered in his trilogies. I have all but 2 of the pre DA novels and must say I think he along with Coleman and maybe Gressman are the top tier of authors.
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I'd like to disagree with that, Stackpole is not my favorite but Having read all his BT work I think he starts out weak and gets better, Warrior Trilogy was corny and the dialogue was painful, BOK was a vast improvement except for the emo drama of Kai and the annoying antics of the ruling families children, Natural Selection seemed to grow those characters more as did Assumption Of Risk and Bred For War.
Malicious Intent felt like a logical conclusion of the strife between the crusader and warden factions of the Wolves and Jade Falcons, and Vlad beating the crap out of Elias Crichell is one of my top five favorite BT novel moments ever.
The only problem I had with Grave Covenant was the weird random line about the guy who was explaining entropy based warfare, I thought the line about how his ebon skin spoke of his African Ancestry, but his crisp and concise gait as he approached the podium attested to military upbringing and training" was a bit curious, what does his skin color have to do with it, am I reading to much in to that? Other than that I saw no problem with it.
Prince Of Havoc was cool, although Victor killing Osis was cheesy, but then again I kind of expected it, they clearly set up Victor getting a katana so I knew he was going to use it on someone at some point.
Ghost War was better than all of the preceding in my opinion, had kind of a new style of narrative and didn't run the same old tropes in to the ground like the the first two trilogies, I liked it alot!
Haven't read Masters Of War yet, although the whole Wolves moving to Steiner Space for no discernible reason sounds more than a bit offputting, however I'd like to stand by my original statement, I think Stackpole got better rather than worse.
Fire away!
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Just a description. If someone has a black skintone, he has a black skintone. It's not like we need to see potential racism or the likes in it. Heck usually there are plenty of complaints of a lack of 'black' people. He merely described the character and the impression he gave of visually.
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Just a description. If someone has a black skintone, he has a black skintone. It's not like we need to see potential racism or the likes in it. Heck usually there are plenty of complaints of a lack of 'black' people. He merely described the character and the impression he gave of visually.
I see what you're getting at, however it was just that whole but between the two observations, made it seem like the author or the narrative or whatever felt like the the two statements were normally diametrically opposed and required that particular conjunction, seems like an and between the two observations would have been less suspect, but I fear I'm splitting hairs or over thinking it at this point. So let's move on.
How does Masters of War rate in your guy's opinion if compared with the rest, I know everyone has a different opinion so I'm more looking to see which of the previous works it is most similar too in regards to style pacing and tone, so I can guess what I'm in for. Like is it kind of drawn out and evenly paced like BOK or Warrior, or is it quick and to the point like Malicious Intent, or is it totally different POW SURPRISE before slowing back down like Ghost War? I'd buy it and find out buy the only copy I can find right now feel a little too rich for my blood given it's age.
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The only problem I had with Grave Covenant was the weird random line about the guy who was explaining entropy based warfare, I thought the line about how his ebon skin spoke of his African Ancestry, but his crisp and concise gait as he approached the podium attested to military upbringing and training" was a bit curious, what does his skin color have to do with it, am I reading to much in to that? Other than that I saw no problem with it.
Wait, he actually used a "but" in there? That's almost as off-putting a glimpse in to Stackpole's head as his scene in Ghost War where he smugly explains how a hulking man with military training is in the right to assault a college-age girl, on account of her political views.
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Wait, he actually used a "but" in there? That's almost as off-putting a glimpse in to Stackpole's head as his scene in Ghost War where he smugly explains how a hulking man with military training is in the right to assault a college-age girl, on account of her political views.
I remember that, seemed a bit odd! Then again maybe Sam / Mason was just thinking in character to be the most convincing burly lumberjack manly man he possibly could. Besides wasn't that college girl like an eco terrorist or something, thus making it "okay"?
Anyway yeah page 77, I'd post a screen shot but not sure how it would violate the copyright, so never mind.
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She wasn't an eco-terrorist, she was some college kid raising money for a charity that was a front for eco-terrorists. And of course she needed to learn the TRUTH ABOUT HOW SHE IS TOO SOFT TO HANDLE WAR. Considering how most of his main characters are already uncomfortable levels of author wish-fulfillment, I'm starting to think Stackpole's views are remarkably creepy.
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She wasn't an eco-terrorist, she was some college kid raising money for a charity that was a front for eco-terrorists. And of course she needed to learn the TRUTH ABOUT HOW SHE IS TOO SOFT TO HANDLE WAR. Considering how most of his main characters are already uncomfortable levels of author wish-fulfillment, I'm starting to think Stackpole's views are remarkably creepy.
Well, the following lengthy quote comes from novel Assumption of Risk with Kai Allard-Liao suddenly explaining to Katherine Steiner-Davion something about his views about society and naturally her agreeing to his views...
The procession of three hovercars glided through the grimy, rain-slick streets of Silesia like a pack of wolves trotting through game-rich forests. Though no one on the streets could have recognized the vehicles, people did seem to recognize their intent and purposefulness. The black aircars took the corners crisply and lunged forward through the streets, focusing on attaining their goal, not meandering aimlessly through the twisted warrens.
Kai Allard-Liao sat in the corner of the back seat more interested in the reactions of his fellow passengers than the world outside the windows. Nancy Bao Lee sat next to him, comfortably close, but uncomfortable because Omi was seated on her other side. Thomas DeLon sat across from Kai, with Katrina in the middle and Galen opposite Omi. The three visiting nobles studied the streets intently, gasping or frowning as the headlights froze in sharp chiaroscuro some improbably brutal or chilling street scene.
Katrina shook her head as she caught a glimpse of two people fighting over a scrap of cloth. "How can people live like that?"
"They live like that when they have no choice." Kai shifted around in his seat, wedging his spine into where the seat met the car's side wall. "In a free market system, there are always people who will not fit in and will be reduced to this level of poverty. If you don't want to see it, you create governmental structures and legislation that guarantee people housing, food, and employment, but that also gives you a police state."
The duchess frowned as Kai spoke. "Someone has to do something. They're living like animals."
"Some people do." Kai glanced over at DeLon. "I've been working here to fund a number of charitable enterprises and, by example, embarrass many of my fellow stable owners into doing the same. Ultimately, though, we can only provide opportunities for people. We cannot force them to take advantage of them."
Katrina nodded. "Forcing them would be akin to slavery."
"People can be educated and offered the chance to take responsibility for themselves." Omi's quiet voice barely sounded above the background hum of the hovercar's fans. "When they cannot accept responsibility for themselves, compassion dictates that we must do whatever possible to comfort them."
"Exactly." Kai's head came up as the hovercar slowed. The lead vehicle slued around in front of them to block Arnulf Street just to the west of a nondescript warehouselike building. The car's doors opened as it settled to the ground and four Federated Commonwealth security men got out. Behind the middle car the vehicle carrying the Combine security forces likewise twisted around to block Arnulf Street to the east before its complement of security men also poured out.
[\quote]
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It's pretty jarring how sure of himself Kai became when you think back to the crushing semi suicidal self doubt he portrayed in the beginning of his introduction. I think it would have been more beliveable if his confidence in his abilities / convictions came more gradually, but as I remember it he basically flipped a switch towards the end of BOK. [tickedoff] Oh well at least there was the Dancing Joker in the later books.
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I'm just glad I read the Stackpole books in my early teens. They seemed like good books back then.
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Though this is true, time has shown that Stackpole was not, and since he is still a semi-active writer continues not to be, irreplacable. Yes, he was called on to do the core line of novels that did drive the main story of the universe, from the Warrior books on. But, most of Twilight of the Clans was done by others, with Stackpole's offerings being some of the weaker offerings from that series to my mind (this coming from someone who genuinely enjoyed most of his earlier works, in both BT and Star Wars). Loren L Coleman was called on to finish the core line, after having done excelent work previously, and 'wrap up' the pre-Jihad era, in effect replacing Stackpole.
Ah, but you forget- from what I recall, Loren thought of an interesting way to develop Sun-Tzu, with reclaiming the St. Ives and recapturing worlds lost to the 4th Succession War...so he went to TPTB with his ideas and got to write the novels (Killing Fields I think?). But as we see in Stackpole's blog earlier, it was all pre planed and thought out by Stackpole back in the BoK Trilogy, where he showed Sun-Tzu to be able to fool other people, see? Those are his ideas Loren used.
The Clan Wolf sections in the Field Manuals by Loren were also Stackpole's ideas from Malicious Intent...
Likewise, the Scorpion Jar MWDA novels... that all goes back to 'Ghost War' by Stackpole. Whatever TPTB do in 3150, will actually be Stackpole's work, because he wrote the...Wolf Hunters' novel?
The Jihad and Wars of Reaving? Stackpole with the MWDA universe he helped create with Wiesman.
And here I thought Battletech was plotted out in general by TPTB before major plot lines were distributed to the writers (I.e, A Smoke Jaguar is going to defect to the I.S and show Victor how to get to Huntress. Who wants to flesh out that story? Or FASA had planned out a WoB Jihad with Victor uniting everyone to save the I.S).
But no. Silly me. It's all Stackpole. If it wasn't for him, hell, Ben wouldn't have had any ideas of his own for the Wars of Reaving. Right? ;)
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She wasn't an eco-terrorist, she was some college kid raising money for a charity that was a front for eco-terrorists. And of course she needed to learn the TRUTH ABOUT HOW SHE IS TOO SOFT TO HANDLE WAR. Considering how most of his main characters are already uncomfortable levels of author wish-fulfillment, I'm starting to think Stackpole's views are remarkably creepy.
OK. I have Ghost War right next to me. Here's a brief summary. Goldie and Red enter the bar to talk about the mottled lemur. Sam tries to move Goldie *gently* out of the bar and puts a hand on her. Red takes exception to this and starts a fight. In no way was war mentioned. OK. Sam does mention that picking fights with people who have access to chainsaws that can cut through your house is a REALLY bad idea. OK. Sam does describe Red as going from a hard appearance to a soft appearance later, but that was chalked up to Red using her appearance to manipulate people.
There is a monologue later on how intellectually Sam thought his new companions viewed violence later, but it is internalized and we learn further down the road that Sam is very, very wrong with regards to one member of the GGF.
By the way.....do we ever learn who Red/Elle was working for?
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I may be totally wrong but I think I remember they were working for Banson to stir up trouble and thus justify his buildup of forces.
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Some of the criticism of Stackpole's Mary Sue-ish heroes, clumsy characterization and being a very 'plot driven' writer are pretty dead-on in my opinion. His characters very rarely seem 'real' to me, and, in general, I find his Battletech books unsatisfying but not a complete waste of time...I do give him some credit at being good enough, despite his weaknesses, to make you at least want to finish the book.
I also have to say that I enjoyed his work in the Star Wars universe far more than his Battletech stories; I honestly think his 'what's happening is what this books is about' style and his somewhat flat characters work very well in that setting, and his books benefit from it.
Battletech is, however, at it's heart, more a 'war story' than an 'action story', and I've never seen Stackpole write with the kind of harshness or bite you need to do that well. His combat scenes with Battlemechs, especially seem to fall flat to me, though his aerospace scenes are much better...in both X-Wing and Battletech, he does planes better than armor.
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Battletech is, however, at it's heart, more a 'war story' than an 'action story', and I've never seen Stackpole write with the kind of harshness or bite you need to do that well.
Good point.
He doesn't seem to have a good handle on how soldiers tend to react either.
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Good point.
He doesn't seem to have a good handle on how soldiers tend to react either.
Probably comes from being in logistics, and not, you know, combat units.
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Well all the harshness out there is Sad. The Fiction by Stackpole and all the others is what makes the Game more than a Game. it what has been missing sense they stopped making the Fiction books. It would be great to have the Fiction with all that happened during the Jihad and Wars of Reaving. Oh well. Mr. Stackpole was a Guest at Gamestorm this Year. He came and watched us play Our Battle for Tera. What Fun. I think he is Great. Here he is.
(http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx250/ardenleecarterjr/DSCF0068-2.jpg)
Nice Guy. Great to talk with. got him to sign a few books for me. He brought the Game to Life. the rest is FictionalHistory.
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I also have to say that I enjoyed his work in the Star Wars universe far more than his Battletech stories; I honestly think his 'what's happening is what this books is about' style and his somewhat flat characters work very well in that setting, and his books benefit from it.
Star Wars is a very good-vs-evil, unapologetically one-sided fictional universe. Stackpole does very well in it because it lends itself more to his style of larger-than-life superheroes and mustache-twirling blatant villains.
Well all the harshness out there is Sad. The Fiction by Stackpole and all the others is what makes the Game more than a Game. it what has been missing sense they stopped making the Fiction books. It would be great to have the Fiction with all that happened during the Jihad and Wars of Reaving. Oh well. Mr. Stackpole was a Guest at Gamestorm this Year. He came and watched us play Our Battle for Tera. What Fun. I think he is Great. Here he is.
Eh, different strokes. I, on the other hand, have found that being a novel character generally makes me actively hate someone. I like my exploits in sourcebook fashion, an outline for me to fill in some blanks, not have it all mined out with third-person omniscient narration.
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Probably comes from being in logistics, and not, you know, combat units.
According to his Bio on his website Mike was never in the military.
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According to his Bio on his website Mike was never in the military.
Huh? I thought one of his old book bios listed him as having been in a logistics command...
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Star Wars is a very good-vs-evil, unapologetically one-sided fictional universe. Stackpole does very well in it because it lends itself more to his style of larger-than-life superheroes and mustache-twirling blatant villains.
Yeah, exactly. It's also all about the big, sweeping storyline and the high-level world changing events, which also suits a plot-driven writer; there's nothing wrong with being a plot-centric writer, either, so long as you know your limits...and basing more in characters has it's limits too.
I do want to emphasize I'm not really trying to run the guy down...when he's doing something he does well, I greatly enjoy him. I just think Battletech benefits more from a micro, rather than macro viewpoint. The gameworld is so freakin' huge that you could tell almost any kind of story you wanted in it, but setting it at the top level, in that zone reserved for superpower nations, sort of brings you up out of...all the really interesting parts. ;)
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You'd think so, but look at the Warrior Trilogy. He has the big wedding, bigger than Kim Kardashian, Prince William, and Gene Simmons all put together, leading to the biggest war since the Leno v. Letterman, and all the high level shenanigans that entails and one of the biggest plot points of three books is how Clovis the Lovelorn Dwarf with Daddy Issues finds resolution and no longer needs therapy.
Yeah.
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Stackpole is good for what he does. He writes stories to a theme. The Warrior books where awesome. The BoK books were OK (Kai really needs to be smacked and told to grow a pair, IMHO.)
If you want subtlety and character depth read something else. The nitpicking over this or that is asinine and petty. Look at the material he has to work with. Its a story about a game with giant robots, laser beams, etc, etc. He is just trying to breath some sort of life into it and make it enjoyable for most.
You also have to realize while he was creating these stories, he had to work with what FASA was and had developed at the time. He created these stories with game developers, editors, and countless other people looking over his shoulder telling him this will not work or this is not right, can this character be woman, or some other annoyances.
As for Stackpole's statement, I don't blame him in the least. Monday morning quarterbacking is quite annoying. You don't have millions of fans telling you their thoughts on how to do your job. Let the man write his style and either buy the product or don't.
$0.02 D-Bills
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Everyone Monday Morning Quarterbacks everything. It's an American tradition.
It is interesting that his essay mentioned how the fans could only follow the plotline as he wrote it, that nobody could do nearly as good of a job as he could, and that we needed to chill out because we weren't paying him so we didn't matter anyways...but the writers wrote themselves into a corner and they needed to use the nuke reset button because they couldn't figure out where to go next.
And oh yeah, I need some cash, so please buy some more of my books. ::)
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As for Stackpole's statement, I don't blame him in the least. Monday morning quarterbacking is quite annoying. You don't have millions of fans telling you their thoughts on how to do your job. Let the man write his style and either buy the product or don't.
Pointing out the flaws in a poorly written book isn't armchair quarterbacking. Just because I've never written a pop sci-fi trilogy doesn't mean I'm incapable of understanding what makes a story good. Or do you think nobody should criticize anything ever?
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Pointing out the flaws in a poorly written book isn't armchair quarterbacking. Just because I've never written a pop sci-fi trilogy doesn't mean I'm incapable of understanding what makes a story good. Or do you think nobody should criticize anything ever?
While I can understand that I'm not a writer- nor am I a popular one at that- as a 'Battletech fan' I consider myself part of the targeted audience for his Battletech books .
If I don't care for his writing, am I supposed to just buy it anyway? Am I not allowed to say that I don't like the way Melissa/Phelan/Kai/Victor are all characters his books will focus on where they lament a lack of confidence and question why people put faith in them, and are willing to die for them?
Am I not allowed to read, say, Heir to the Dragon and find it more satisfying?
And if so, am I allowed to say I liked Blaine's "Target of Opportunity" (for example), yet wish he took "Betrayal of Ideals" in a different direction?
Oh! Oh! And am I allowed to dislike, or even 'hate' a writer's works and yet acknowledge they could be great people in "real life"?
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I guess part of the problem I have with Stackpole's writing is what he considers to be important enough to fit into a book. He gets three books to write up the lead up to the 4th Succession War, the war itself, and the conclusion of the war and tie up all the loose strings into a nice package. So in addition to planning the wedding, the wedding, the actual war, and the unveiling of the ComGuards, he decides to fit in stuff about Melissa's double, a subplot about Melissa almost being captured and only saved by his pet unit, the Kell Hounds, the Justin Allard is he/isn't he a spy subplot, Solaris VII, the whole Candace Liao going starry eyed over Justin subplot, and finally the entire Aldo Lestrade/Clovis the Dwarf nonsense. So the pages he does have to tell the story of the war get lost in all the jumping around he does.
Of all of it, the Clovis the Lonely Dwarf thing was the worst. We have this halfling who pines over chicks he can't have. If I wanted a story about some chud who can't get laid, I don't need to read about it; I'm living it. But it's all good when his buddies in the Kell Hounds tell him to just be himself and eventually he'll find some girl with low enough standards. Of course, in between his girl angst anxiety attacks, he's got his daddy issues. Seems Daddy is a rapist who doesn't care about Clovis' hood and when it gets levelled by the Dracs, Daddy must pay. Daddy, who the House Steiner book say was shooting blanks and couldn't have kids, really could after all, but only with poor farm girls he slipped a roofie to.
I get subplots and I get the whole epic story, but it was too many directions all at once and I haven't even gotten to the characterizations yet. Melissa is head over heels in love iwth Hanse. Jailbait don't get excited by 50 year old men. Anyone over 25 is old. And it isn't like Katrina can even use the whole "he has huge...tracts of land. Earn them on your back" pep talk. Melissa is heir to the entire Lyran Commonwealth. So do we get a political marriage where the bride is forced to get married and all climbs into bed because it is her duty to be pleased booty? Nope, she's all in love and whatnot. And Hanse is pretty cool with being a white hat cowboy. Does he invade the Capellan Commonwealth because he wants to extend his claim to the Star League thron? No. Does he do it out of a sense of revenge for the whole doppleganger thing? Not really. He does it because some poor Capellan got brainwashed and that proves that Mad Max needs to go away. And of course, later on he does the same thing with some kid because he needs Marik's help. And of course, there's the speech to Mad Max about how he's all evil and whatnot and needs to go. I wish Hanse just sent a short vid of him standing in front of a rapidly shrinking map of the Capellan Confederation and just says "I got 99 problems but a Liao ain't one."
The problem comes down to Hanse is just a good guy. He loves a child instead of looking at her as a way out of a political problem. And of course that's before we get into the skeezy old man trying to tap dat barely legal azz. The girl isn't doing this reluctantly and she never takes a lover that is closer to her age. It's all perfect. Stackpole just can't go shades of gray.
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While I can understand that I'm not a writer- nor am I a popular one at that- as a 'Battletech fan' I consider myself part of the targeted audience for his Battletech books .
If I don't care for his writing, am I supposed to just buy it anyway? Am I not allowed to say that I don't like the way Melissa/Phelan/Kai/Victor are all characters his books will focus on where they lament a lack of confidence and question why people put faith in them, and are willing to die for them?
Am I not allowed to read, say, Heir to the Dragon and find it more satisfying?
And if so, am I allowed to say I liked Blaine's "Target of Opportunity" (for example), yet wish he took "Betrayal of Ideals" in a different direction?
Oh! Oh! And am I allowed to dislike, or even 'hate' a writer's works and yet acknowledge they could be great people in "real life"?
Moreover, Stackpole wrote the spine novels. His writing is what colors the characters who keep showing up again and again (and again and again and again...). If it was based solely on SBs I might think of Victor as that somewhat-incompetent but well-meaning guy who can't catch a break, but thanks to the novels I cannot ****** STAND him; he's that pompous little twit who gives speeches all the time rather than having a conversation.
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Moreover, Stackpole wrote the spine novels. His writing is what colors the characters who keep showing up again and again (and again and again and again...). If it was based solely on SBs I might think of Victor as that somewhat-incompetent but well-meaning guy who can't catch a break, but thanks to the novels I cannot ****** STAND him; he's that pompous little twit who gives speeches all the time rather than having a conversation.
If it helps, you can always think of him as just another character in a children's khartoon.
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Victor Rules! [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] Well
i think he dose. O0
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Victor Rules! [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] Well
i think he dose. O0
Right up until his sister deposes him, anyway.
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Victor Rules! [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] Well
i think he dose. O0
Battletech is supposed to be a grim universe, where a cynical view is taken towards human nature. Whether you're the Inner Sphere or the Clans, warfare is common place. The so-called 'peaceful' Star League that was formed to bring peace to humanity launched a massive and brutal conquest of the Peripheries within four years of it's conception.
Even Hanse Davion- champion of the noble Federated Suns and Victor's father presented his wife with an Inner Sphere wide war that cost the lives of millions of people as a wedding gift.
Victor, by contrast, constantly questions why people have to be mean to eachother. Why everyone can't hold hands, sing songs, and get along. He constantly, and consistently, puts people ahead of his own needs- including his enemies. He regrets being forced to kill the leader of the Clans- despite doing Osis a favor, and wonders why it had to be that way. With, what, hundreds of millions of people asking him to save them from Katharine and to once again return and lead them...he's willing to go into self imposed exile as he reasons that Kat would be cost his people less than a civil war. Hell, his own people go to fight a Civil War for him and only when it reaches the point of no return does Victor step up.
He's a direct contrast to the rest of the universe and the theme of Battletech itself.
He doesn't 'rule'- he can't as he's a walking juxtaposition.
Alongside Superman and friends? Sure, Victor would work. Not in Battletech.
Hell, Superman- the supposed 'boy scout' has darker moments than Victor.
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And don't forget, Superman can kick Victor's ass.
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But Vic would end up with Lois Lane anyway.
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Victor always gets the girl. Always.
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Battletech is supposed to be a grim universe, where a cynical view is taken towards human nature. Whether you're the Inner Sphere or the Clans, warfare is common place. The so-called 'peaceful' Star League that was formed to bring peace to humanity launched a massive and brutal conquest of the Peripheries within four years of it's conception.
Even Hanse Davion- champion of the noble Federated Suns and Victor's father presented his wife with an Inner Sphere wide war that cost the lives of millions of people as a wedding gift.
Victor, by contrast, constantly questions why people have to be mean to eachother. Why everyone can't hold hands, sing songs, and get along. He constantly, and consistently, puts people ahead of his own needs- including his enemies. He regrets being forced to kill the leader of the Clans- despite doing Osis a favor, and wonders why it had to be that way. With, what, hundreds of millions of people asking him to save them from Katharine and to once again return and lead them...he's willing to go into self imposed exile as he reasons that Kat would be cost his people less than a civil war. Hell, his own people go to fight a Civil War for him and only when it reaches the point of no return does Victor step up.
He's a direct contrast to the rest of the universe and the theme of Battletech itself.
He doesn't 'rule'- he can't as he's a walking juxtaposition.
Alongside Superman and friends? Sure, Victor would work. Not in Battletech.
Hell, Superman- the supposed 'boy scout' has darker moments than Victor.
Could that just possibly be the point? That the kid with hopes for a bright future gets to see nothing but wars and destruction for the majority of his life?
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But Vic would end up with Lois Lane anyway.
Nah, something would happen to Lois and Vic would end up with Lana Lang as a consolation prize.
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Victor always gets the girl. Always.
And then Morgan Freeman does a voice over and she... she... she... dies.
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Could that just possibly be the point? That the kid with hopes for a bright future gets to see nothing but wars and destruction for the majority of his life?
I seem to recall that Stackpole said on his website that part of the reason he was getting out of Battletech (aside from disagreements with FASA about how much he was owed) was that he felt he would harm the universe if he kept writing Victor- he enjoyed 'torturing' him.
So I suppose that could be part of what Stackpole intended.
I don't see why, though, you would make the centre protagonist the exact opposite of what the game is about though.
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I don't see why, though, you would make the centre protagonist the exact opposite of what the game is about though.
Because there's more dramatic tension that way. A reluctant and conflicted hero who fights despite not wanting to is much better dramatically than some guy who suffers no doubts or remorse about going to war.
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How many readers would connect with a character who wishes to be nothing but an avatar of chaos and destruction? I mean, you get a few of those out there, but they are rarely anything sustainable as far as a story goes.
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How many readers would connect with a character who wishes to be nothing but an avatar of chaos and destruction? I mean, you get a few of those out there, but they are rarely anything sustainable as far as a story goes.
Clanners? ::)
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Clanners? ::)
The Master?
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Clanners? ::)
Twisted and wrongheaded as it is, the Clan system is designed to avoid chaos and destruction, to pare it down to the smallest collateral damage as possible. *shrug* That was one of the reason the Wars of Reaving was such a big punch.
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Because there's more dramatic tension that way. A reluctant and conflicted hero who fights despite not wanting to is much better dramatically than some guy who suffers no doubts or remorse about going to war.
I find him hard to, 'relate to', I suppose though. Of course, he's a noble, a ruler of an interplanetary realm with trillions of people and a 'mechwarrior' and soldier. Not sure how much I can really relate to Victor in the first place. He stands out to me, like a sore thumb though...so I suppose it's more about breaking my suspension of belief if anything. I find it hard to take Victor seriously, especially as the main protagonist because of it.
I don't find him any more dramatic than, say, Theodore Kurita in Heir to the Dragon. Hell, even Justin Xian-Allard to keep the comparison to the same author.
We have plenty of Inner Sphere protagonists that have starred in novels that, while they don't eagerly crave war and destruction- or even power... aren't so out of place as Victor. Characters that believe in a greater world- are faced with hard choices. Focht showing regret for his past actions against Melissa and Katrina- almost seeking redemption. Even going so far to murder Waterly in seeking to protect the Inner Sphere from the Clans.
Thomas Halas, Shin, Dan Allard- hell, even Sun Tzu I can all find believable.
But don't give me someone that's been groomed to lead not one, but two Inner Sphere Houses- w hose's father started the Fourth Succession War. That's fought the Clans and already planned (and executed) a plan to show the Clans what real war is like. That's taken war to not only the soliders of the Clans but the civilians. Destroyed the Smoke Jaguars' way of life before destroying the Clan itself.
That does all of this. Already made peace with it. And on the final battle with the leader of the Clans- the very person that threatens trillions of people-not only your own. An enemy that has tried to kill you in a 'trial'. Who you've already prepared and decided to kill.
Suddenly change your mind, show regret, and be unable to do the deed unless he gives you absolutely no choice by attacking you and making the attack self defense. Especially when you had no issue with killing Black Dragon assassins only a couple years earlier.
I mean, did changing Star Wars to make Greedo or whatever the hell his name was really make Han Solo more dramatic by shooting in self defense?
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So it's impossible for people to tire of something they once were somewhat okay with? It's impossible for Vic to have tired of war after the campaign of annihilation the League waged against the Jaguars?
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Twisted and wrongheaded as it is, the Clan system is designed to avoid chaos and destruction, to pare it down to the smallest collateral damage as possible.
Well I guess that idea didn't work out as intended. ;D
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Well I guess that idea didn't work out as intended. ;D
Very rarely do high ideals survive contact with the real world. Sick control-freak fantasies, on the other hand, tend to last centuries in isolation until you invade the Inner Sphere and your lower castes realize just how bad they have it...wait, I think I was talking generalities a moment ago.
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I relate to Victor a lot, actually. My father went to war, and then raised me to be pretty much a pacifist. I can see myself taking up arms for the country in time of real need, but frankly, I think that alternatives can be found. So, there's the link with me and Vic.
I'm a big believer in the Robby Jackson school of combat.
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Yes, I can see where Vic's parents did him, and the entire nation, a huge disservice.
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How many readers would connect with a character who wishes to be nothing but an avatar of chaos and destruction? I mean, you get a few of those out there, but they are rarely anything sustainable as far as a story goes.
How many people can identify with someone who gives speeches instead of having a conversation? Stackpole heroes are neve built around relatability, the idea is if they are "special" enough we will like them.
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How many people can identify with someone who gives speeches instead of having a conversation?
Any politician.
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How many people can identify with someone who gives speeches instead of having a conversation?
Realistic diction is unrealistic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealisticDictionIsUnrealistic). Fictional characters practically never talk the way actual people do in real life, anyway.
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If you're going to stylize your dialogue, at least make it interesting and clever, and above all, concise (unless you are intentionally characterizing someone as a pompous windbag, in which case every character in his novels is one). I'm more willing to forgive the unrealism of clever, rapid-fire quips than a character answering a straightforward question with a paragraph-long speech that could have been summed up entirely in the final sentence without losing any of its meaning.
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If you're going to stylize your dialogue, at least make it interesting and clever, and above all, concise (unless you are intentionally characterizing someone as a pompous windbag, in which case every character in his novels is one). I'm more willing to forgive the unrealism of clever, rapid-fire quips than a character answering a straightforward question with a paragraph-long speech that could have been summed up entirely in the final sentence without losing any of its meaning.
Well, at that point it comes down to personal taste. Considering that a lot of his viewpoint characters are rulers, nobles, military commanders or otherwise highly-placed -- people I honestly wouldn't expect to either speak or be casually addressed the way Joe Everybody on the street might --, it'd arguably put more strain on my suspension of disbelief if there was less speechifying going on.
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If you're going to stylize your dialogue, at least make it interesting and clever, and above all, concise (unless you are intentionally characterizing someone as a pompous windbag, in which case every character in his novels is one).
Aren't a lot of those exposition that Stackpole would have worked in somehow regardless? For instance, I was reading whichever Twilight of the Clans book has Vic & friends planning to hit Strana Mechty, and the first couple chapters of dialogue have nothing to do with character or plot development and everything to do with reminding you how the BattleTech universe works.
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Yeah, that's Claremont-style. I would consider the two of them on about the same skill level, too. The man who has all his characters have conversations by giving speeches, even in personal conversation, versus the guy who had Cyclops and Wolverine explain how their powers work to each other all the time? Hack-off is go.
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Heh!
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To be fair to Claremont, with comic books you have the ongoing problem that (a) any given issue may be some new reader's first one and (b) you only have so many pages to put the exposition kind of required by (a) into. So yeah, stuff like "oh, remember how my powers work?" can get a bit repetitive, especially when dealing with things that genuinely are easier to express in words than in a series of still images.
...and really, that Wolverine has a healing factor doesn't necessarily mean I'd insist on wanting to be treated to a full graphic rendition of it each time it kicks in, either. ;)
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To be fair to Claremont, with comic books you have the ongoing problem that (a) any given issue may be some new reader's first one and (b) you only have so many pages to put the exposition kind of required by (a) into. So yeah, stuff like "oh, remember how my powers work?" can get a bit repetitive, especially when dealing with things that genuinely are easier to express in words than in a series of still images.
...and really, that Wolverine has a healing factor doesn't necessarily mean I'd insist on wanting to be treated to a full graphic rendition of it each time it kicks in, either. ;)
They solved this in modern comics by having a "these are the characters and how their powers work" page on the inside of the front cover, kind of like some of the print runs of BT novels had glossaries in the back.
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Y'know I find it continually amusing that people argue this point over, and over and over again. complaining and saying how they hated these stories. These same stories are th basis for everything we love in Battletech, these stories are the background and details we thrive in as the players of this game for more than a QUARTER OF A CENTURY. so if you do not like, answer me this...WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? I can ignore the GDL boosk becuase honestly after Helm they were worthless plotwise. The 17th Recon books with Cassie, I can ignore them too they didn't do anything really epic to the universe at large. Can't ignore the Warrior Books, or BoK, or Twilight of the Clans, or the Heir to the Dragon and Wolves on the Border, these are al llandmarks in the universe. The details and plots of these books are the stuff of our legends.
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Y'know I find it continually amusing that people argue this point over, and over and over again. complaining and saying how they hated these stories. These same stories are th basis for everything we love in Battletech, these stories are the background and details we thrive in as the players of this game for more than a QUARTER OF A CENTURY. so if you do not like, answer me this...WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? I can ignore the GDL boosk becuase honestly after Helm they were worthless plotwise. The 17th Recon books with Cassie, I can ignore them too they didn't do anything really epic to the universe at large. Can't ignore the Warrior Books, or BoK, or Twilight of the Clans, or the Heir to the Dragon and Wolves on the Border, these are al llandmarks in the universe. The details and plots of these books are the stuff of our legends.
Because the game universe is rich and diverse?
Sure, Stackpole's novels were the major story arcs.
So what?
The Warrior trilogy doesn't flush out the Free World's League. Does that mean it's irrelevant?
Is the Star Adder and Blood Spirit feud not interesting because it wasn't in Blood of Kerensky?
Does the 3025 appeal of 'simpler' weapons and of lostech being mythical- where being dispossessed is a death sentence ultimately pointless because none of Stackpole's books take place before the 4th Succession War?
Finally, as Stackpole does not have anything to do with the current Jihad (despite his claims of everything being 'his' idea) presented by the current TPTB- should I not enjoy it as Stackpole isn't writing it?
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These same stories are th basis for everything we love in Battletech, these stories are the background and details we thrive in as the players of this game for more than a QUARTER OF A CENTURY. so if you do not like, answer me this...WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? I
I've never read a single book and I love this game. I like playing with mechs, rolling dice, and blowing things up. The source books are fantastic. Are you saying that the source books are badly written, and Stackpole saves the game?
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I've never read a single book and I love this game. I like playing with mechs, rolling dice, and blowing things up. The source books are fantastic. Are you saying that the source books are badly written, and Stackpole saves the game?
Nope not what I said.
What I said was, I loved it all and the stuff Stack did amplified my enjoyment of it at the time. still does to be honest.
Because the game universe is rich and diverse?
Sure, Stackpole's novels were the major story arcs.
So what?
The Warrior trilogy doesn't flush out the Free World's League. Does that mean it's irrelevant?
Is the Star Adder and Blood Spirit feud not interesting because it wasn't in Blood of Kerensky? {Honestly I think it is NOt interesting. since I never really was presented with a view of it that was more than historical summary}
Does the 3025 appeal of 'simpler' weapons and of lostech being mythical- where being dispossessed is a death sentence ultimately pointless because none of Stackpole's books take place before the 4th Succession War? {ABsolutely not, I loe the 3025 era stuff, it's my favorite, Hanse Davion was my God back then. :) }
Finally, as Stackpole does not have anything to do with the current Jihad (despite his claims of everything being 'his' idea) presented by the current TPTB- should I not enjoy it as Stackpole isn't writing it? {Nope, like you say it's irrelevant that he has nothing to do with it, But I wil lsay again, I dislike the jihad, i dislike how it was handled thus far and i dislike that it is an unmutable tory/plot channel thru wich i must walk into the DA and beyond. wich is where my universe can once again deviate from the Canon. }
COMPLETELY Not what i said. What I mean is, that if he made these things so bad for so many people why bother? Obviously he did SOMETHING right, So why waste time on the negatives? There are flaws in everything. I dislike the Jihad as a whole and rule, but I stil lplay in it, but i enjoy the whole fabric of the universe of Battletech. Stackpole did not create the universe, nor did he flesh out everything, maybe he failed at a few things, but somewhere, sometime, people liked it, the books sold WELL, they didn't just sell, they sold WELL. I'm just getting tired of listening to the constant, whining and criticism. IF you don't like it, DONT READ THE BOOKS PEOPLE. Play with the other books, don't open a copy of Warrior: Coupe. or Blood of Kerensky or any of the others. I liked his stuff when i was 13, i enjoyed the books, maybe i've moved past them into more mature styles of stuff.
RD, go on, enjoy what you enjoy. I hope you continue to play, continue to enjoy the source books, I do as well. If i didn't enjoy these Sourcebooks I wouldn't have bought them the first time, and when my first copies of them wore out i went and bought REPLACEMENTS.
Do whatm akes you happy. Do what you enjoy. Stop whining about the books you don't like and get past it.
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COMPLETELY Not what i said.
Huh, really?
What I mean is, that if he made these things so bad for so many people why bother?
I, and a few others, say we don't like Stackpole's novels.
That's <i>all</i> we're saying.
You then conclude that if it's 'so bad why play'?
That's a strawman's argument.
If you don't like the Jihad, why play the game?
Do you see what I'm doing there? You invariably reply "Well, the Jihad isn't *that* bad" and then *I* can argue "Well, see? The Jihad is good".
It doesn't work that way. You don't like the Jihad, fair enough.
What I'm tired of, however, is whenever Stackpole comes up, people inevitably conclude that Stackpole did create the game and therefor we should like his books, and if we don't, we should get out.
Which is definately what your post, -to me- comes across as. If you say that's not what you're saying, then fine. But that's how it comes across.
As for the 'Stackpole did/did not create Battletech' - well he certainly implies it. He just as much said so on his own, very, blog. It's been quoted earlier in this thread- he outright states that any ideas some one thinks up of for Battletech has already been considered by him, and even if if hasn't...it involves the characters he created and thus sprung from him anyway.
Which I very much disagree with. Fine, he created the Kell Hounds and the Wolfhound. Fantastic. Good for him. That doesn't mean he should get the lion's share of everything related to the Kell Hounds after he walked out the door.
Okay, so he created Vlad as a foil to his Mary Sue Phelan. Again, fine. Vlad existed purely to show off how good Phelan was and to show how 'evil' the Crusaders were- sadistic, whipping bondsmen, beating up old men, cheating at Trials.
And then Stackpole needed someone to lead Clan Wolf after he made the Exiles, so suddenly Vlad is more than a one dimensional cutout that could have stared alongside Cobra on G.I. Joe. Great.
That doesn't mean Loren's writeup of Clan Wolf in FM:CC isn't a well done piece that shouldn't be credited to Loren. Ben's work on Wars of Reaving and Vlad's portrayal shouldn't be thrown under Stackpole's name either.
I don't see Justin Allard (Copyright Michael Stackpole) in the Warrior Trilogy.
He was a contracted author. His work is not owned by him- he *sold it* and whatever current author decides to do with said character (and is approved by the Line Developer) should go to that author.
I should be allowed to dislike an author's work if I don't like it. I don't need to be forced to like it. I don't need to like Victor Steiner-Davion to be allowed to play this game (or like it either).
I like Ilsa's work on the MWDA novels she wrote. Some people don't. That's their entitled opinion.
And that same entitlement should apply to any fan that doesn't care for an author. Even if it is the godly Stackpole.
Now, you conclude that because people bought the books- clearly they liked him.
Well, the Jihad books are selling. In fact, Battletech is a hell of a lot stronger than it was five, ten, years ago. So- clearly, the Jihad is good and you're wrong for not liking it.
Right?
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Huh, really?
I, and a few others, say we don't like Stackpole's novels.
That's <i>all</i> we're saying.
You then conclude that if it's 'so bad why play'?
That's a strawman's argument.
If you don't like the Jihad, why play the game?
Do you see what I'm doing there? You invariably reply "Well, the Jihad isn't *that* bad" and then *I* can argue "Well, see? The Jihad is good".
It doesn't work that way. You don't like the Jihad, fair enough.
What I'm tired of, however, is whenever Stackpole comes up, people inevitably conclude that Stackpole did create the game and therefor we should like his books, and if we don't, we should get out.
Which is definately what your post, -to me- comes across as. If you say that's not what you're saying, then fine. But that's how it comes across.
As for the 'Stackpole did/did not create Battletech' - well he certainly implies it. He just as much said so on his own, very, blog. It's been quoted earlier in this thread- he outright states that any ideas some one thinks up of for Battletech has already been considered by him, and even if if hasn't...it involves the characters he created and thus sprung from him anyway.
Which I very much disagree with. Fine, he created the Kell Hounds and the Wolfhound. Fantastic. Good for him. That doesn't mean he should get the lion's share of everything related to the Kell Hounds after he walked out the door.
Okay, so he created Vlad as a foil to his Mary Sue Phelan. Again, fine. Vlad existed purely to show off how good Phelan was and to show how 'evil' the Crusaders were- sadistic, whipping bondsmen, beating up old men, cheating at Trials.
And then Stackpole needed someone to lead Clan Wolf after he made the Exiles, so suddenly Vlad is more than a one dimensional cutout that could have stared alongside Cobra on G.I. Joe. Great.
That doesn't mean Loren's writeup of Clan Wolf in FM:CC isn't a well done piece that shouldn't be credited to Loren. Ben's work on Wars of Reaving and Vlad's portrayal shouldn't be thrown under Stackpole's name either.
I don't see Justin Allard (Copyright Michael Stackpole) in the Warrior Trilogy.
He was a contracted author. His work is not owned by him- he *sold it* and whatever current author decides to do with said character (and is approved by the Line Developer) should go to that author.
I should be allowed to dislike an author's work if I don't like it. I don't need to be forced to like it. I don't need to like Victor Steiner-Davion to be allowed to play this game (or like it either).
I like Ilsa's work on the MWDA novels she wrote. Some people don't. That's their entitled opinion.
And that same entitlement should apply to any fan that doesn't care for an author. Even if it is the godly Stackpole.
Now, you conclude that because people bought the books- clearly they liked him.
Well, the Jihad books are selling. In fact, Battletech is a hell of a lot stronger than it was five, ten, years ago. So- clearly, the Jihad is good and you're wrong for not liking it.
Right?
I'm done with arguing. Obviously your right, i'm wrong. Wich is by the way, the way EVERYONE feels when it comes to Stackpole. Doesn't matter your views or your evidence. I've never read the MWDA books since icould never find them in the nearby stores when they were printed. I heard mixed reviews, I'd love to believe they were good. You're right, the Jihad has seemingly been good for the game's sales if nothing else. My view is that I liked his books when i was 14 or 16. as a 40 year old man, I reread the Warrior books when this thread started, I still do. I still like Kell Hounds, I still Like the Wolf's Dragoons, my anti-cappellan feelings have not changed, my disapointment in the FWL league has not change over the years. Am I a Bad Guy for like his books? Maybe according to some extremists. I don't think you're bad or stupid or foolish for not liking his books. I don't like the sparkly vampires books but the author has made millions and the company thatowns them has made literally BILLIONS. Doesnt mean that they are good they just appeal to lots a people.
Taking my sopabox now and shutting up on this thread. have fun gentlemen, and blow up some mechs. It's why we are here after all right?
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I don't think anyone called you a bad guy. I think people are responding to your statement of "get lost" if you don't like them.
I'm still confused as to why you even stated such a thing.....
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I don't think anyone called you a bad guy. I think people are responding to your statement of "get lost" if you don't like them.
I'm still confused as to why you even stated such a thing.....
I did not say "Get lost if you didn't like it" I said, don't like it? Why subject yourself to something that makes you unhappy? If you don't like the books, do not read them. THATS ALL. Now this is my LAST statement on this here topic. gack......
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Y'know I find it continually amusing that people argue this point over, and over and over again. complaining and saying how they hated these stories. These same stories are th basis for everything we love in Battletech, these stories are the background and details we thrive in as the players of this game for more than a QUARTER OF A CENTURY. so if you do not like, answer me this...WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? I can ignore the GDL boosk becuase honestly after Helm they were worthless plotwise. The 17th Recon books with Cassie, I can ignore them too they didn't do anything really epic to the universe at large. Can't ignore the Warrior Books, or BoK, or Twilight of the Clans, or the Heir to the Dragon and Wolves on the Border, these are al llandmarks in the universe. The details and plots of these books are the stuff of our legends.
(relevant portion bolded for emphasis)
You know, looking at that bolded portion, it certainly seems that you are saying "If you do not like Stackpole's writing style, why are you still playing the game?" Since this is a thread more dealing with people kvetching about Stackpole's
STYLE, not the events portrayed in the novels, or people kvetching about Stackpole's arrogance. They have nothing
to do with that reaction. I can dislike HOW the Blood of Kerensky trilogy was written and not have any issues with the
events themselves.
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Am I a Bad Guy for like his books? Maybe according to some extremists.
First, no one is calling you a 'bad guy'.
While my posts can get heated, at times, I didn't mean for my reply to come off in any way a personal attack. Apologies if it came off otherwise.
My view is that I liked his books when i was 14 or 16. as a 40 year old man, I reread the Warrior books when this thread started, I still do. I still like Kell Hounds, I still Like the Wolf's Dragoons, my anti-cappellan feelings have not changed, my disapointment in the FWL league has not change over the years.
I, too, read several of his novels when I was in my younger teens- and I enjoyed them then. I don't now. My tastes changed, as I grew older and started reading the sourcebooks. I, personally, don't think they fit now.
I don't think I've ever come down on anyone for liking a particular faction or author; at least seriously anyway. I'll joke that 'we can't be friends' once they admit to liking FedSun/WiE/Jade Falcon/Bear/<Insert not Clan Wolf answer here>. But it's just a joke.
There's nothing wrong with someone liking Stackpole. People have different tastes.
Just because I, and others, don't like his style doesn't mean others can't, or shouldn't.
Just like I can dislike Stackpole's works- but not him himself. I've never met the guy, and others have said he's a good guy. That's entirely possible- despite that one blog post that 'rankles the fur'.
If I had the opportunity, I'd probably attempt to pick his brain on the whole Refusal War over some beer. I can respect the work he's done, even if I greatly dislike some of his characters.
For example, I really like Blaine's Target of Opportunity novel. I dislike his Betrayal of Ideals and wish he took it in a different direction. I can still dislike the way he did it, but be glad he wrote what really happened with Clan Wolverine too.
I did not say "Get lost if you didn't like it" I said, don't like it? Why subject yourself to something that makes you unhappy? If you don't like the books, do not read them. THATS ALL. Now this is my LAST statement on this here topic. gack......
As Mara said, your earlier comment came across (at least to me) as 'Stackpole made the game what it is today. If you don't like what he did, why play the game?'
You did tend to put a heavy emphasis on the work he did ("These same stories are the basis for everything we love in Battletech") and then ask why we're 'here' in capital letters. Mentioning 'everything we love in Battletech' and then using 'here' implies to me that you're asking why we're playing the game instead of just talking about Stackpole's style.
This isn't to say you're a bad guy, or you did something bad- it's just trying to explain where I was coming from in my posts above.
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Can't ignore the Warrior Books, or BoK,
I think that's the problem. If they're our legends, I want some that are better-written.
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I think that's the problem. If they're our legends, I want some that are better-written.
If you want a better legend, write one. Can't hurt to submit a story to Battlecorps, and we can certainly use all the enthusiastict support for more fiction we can give Herb during his next novel push.
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If you want a better legend, write one. Can't hurt to submit a story to Battlecorps, and we can certainly use all the enthusiastict support for more fiction we can give Herb during his next novel push.
Unless you are suggesting I would be the next guy writing spine novels, which i somehow doubt, you're missing the point. If Stackpole's novels were just another "author invents pet unit, they have adventures" his work wouldn't be as underwhelming at it is.
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We won't know if we don't try. But my point was more along the lines of, since so many people are upset by the way some of the classic novels are written, perhaps those people can produce the books that they are looking for. After all, problems are rarely solved by being content.
This is by no means meant to be confrontational, but I really don't see the problem with Stackpole novels. Since I don't see what's wrong, I can't fix them. With the recent developments providing the groundwork for a new Battletech revival, maybe it is time for us to have some new material out there. And if fans have the opportunity to have quality stories be published as legitimate work, perhaps we can solve two problems at once by letting people with objections to Stackpole's novels write some peices that will appeal to new players of similar tastes.
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You really don't see anything wrong with the way he writes the universe as black and white or writes dialogue?
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You really don't see anything wrong with the way he writes the universe as black and white or writes dialogue?
I guess I don't see the claims that his universe is black and white as black and white as you do. :) He has main characters as either Steiner or Davion (more the former) and thus tends to be LC/FS (etc.)-centric, but his characterizations of Thomas, Sun-Tzu, Ted and his kids, even Ragnar, every major realm gets a decent bite.
As for dialogue, no one in Battletech's fiction is Mamet or Maugham. Some of his earliest work is horrid, (Noton's very external internal dialog when Justin fights a Rifleman in the arena for the first time being a great example,) but Sturgeon's Law is a constant.
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Amount of screen time doesn't have anything to do with him dividing the universe up into "heroes" and "villains" (which tends to neatly line up with whether or not you are a Mech pilot).
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Just having re-read the early Stackpole stuff (Warrior) and having read it in English for the first time - I don't share most peoples hatred for Stackpole. I started out with Sowrd and Dagger and then worked my way chronologically through the novels. In comparison its pretty much all the same: Ardath Mayhar, Bob Charette, Mike Stackpole - all pleasantly shallow written, all characters somewhat two dimensional cardboard cutouts and well readable.
As far as game related fiction goes, this early stuff beats about 80% of what was published for other games (including D&D and Shadowrun). Its somewhat epic and it keeps important people in focus on a detail level that is utterly unbelievable - but so is the whole Universe. If I want grim and gritty, with believable, multi faceted characters facing real struggles, I will sure as hell not turn to game related military sci-fi.
Could the books be written better? Sure. Do they ruin the past of the Universe in their not-awesomeness? Not for me. We read a soap opera here - all the way through the civil war, its a soap opera - Guiding Light couldn't be different. And I admit I enjoy it - not for being the greatest novellisations of a war ever written but for being entertaining and pleasantly shallow while mouthfeeding my background tidbits of a beloved universe.
@Archon: Such as Clovis and his Mother in the warrior trilogy? Kai Allards future wife in Blood of Kerensky? Yes, some of the worst political schemers are carricatures, others are less- btw. Romano Lia was a Mechwarrior - still a Villain. If any obvious lines are to be seen its more along the lines of Military = Good - Politicians = Evil. And the only good politicians are former military forced to rule (Kat Steiner, Hanse, Theodore etc.). But that theme isn't originating with Stackpole but rather a trope of the genre military sci-fi (the honor harrington novels spring to mind).
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You really don't see anything wrong with the way he writes the universe as black and white or writes dialogue?
In a 1980s space opera centered on giant robots, Michael Stackpole exceeds expectations in pretty much every way.
Then again, I like space opera with dividing lines between the good guys and the evil empires that must be destroyed. If I wanted deep plots that explore the human condition I would stick to Assimov and Herbert.
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Amount of screen time doesn't have anything to do with him dividing the universe up into "heroes" and "villains" (which tends to neatly line up with whether or not you are a Mech pilot).
In military-themed fiction, where are the politicians not villains? Ever? Hell, go back to Homer and it breaks that way.
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In military-themed fiction, where are the politicians not villains? Ever? Hell, go back to Homer and it breaks that way.
I'll bite. How 'bout Star Wars Universe. We've got several to choose but I like Mon Mothma and Princess Leia. Both are politicians, not warriors, and they aren't villains.
But... I do agree with your point. Most of the villains are politicians while the warriors are seen as somehow pure and above the dirty fighting that takes place on a legislative floor and back room deals.
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Ladies, Gentlemen, honestly, I see a greater issue with everyone nit-picking on Stackpole...
I say we should join with George Takei and his trying to broker peace between the Star Wars
and Star Trek communities, and join with his urged crusade against the threat to ALL Sci-Fi..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvTCr5Z-0lA
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The real problem with Stackpole's writing is how he presents his heroes as superhuman, sometimes to the point of giving his characters actual superpowers just because. My favorite example is how Phelan was able to deduce Anastasius Focht's true identity in less than an hour without any special clues or anything. He just grabbed a computer, crunched the numbers and cracked the mystery like he's Sherlock Holmes or something. Not only is he an elite MechWarrior and a brilliant general, he's also able to outsmart every major intelligence agency. It's ridiculous.
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I thought it took several months for Phelan to figure that out.
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In a 1980s space opera centered on giant robots, Michael Stackpole exceeds expectations in pretty much every way.
Then again, I like space opera with dividing lines between the good guys and the evil empires that must be destroyed. If I wanted deep plots that explore the human condition I would stick to Assimov and Herbert.
It's interesting that everyone who takes this angle seems to be a Davion fan. I wonder if it comes from people who desire simplistic storytelling being drawn to the FS due to how it likes to dress itself up in the source material or that they are being told to by the aforementioned space opera.
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Actually I would argue Stackpole was way more Steiner-centric than Davion-Centric. But be that as it may.
And I have been a Davionista since the entire fiction library consisted of two paragraphs per House in the second edition rulebook. So at least I am consistent. :)
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The real problem with Stackpole's writing is how he presents his heroes as superhuman, sometimes to the point of giving his characters actual superpowers just because. My favorite example is how Phelan was able to deduce Anastasius Focht's true identity in less than an hour without any special clues or anything. He just grabbed a computer, crunched the numbers and cracked the mystery like he's Sherlock Holmes or something. Not only is he an elite MechWarrior and a brilliant general, he's also able to outsmart every major intelligence agency. It's ridiculous.
As pointed out, it was far longer than an hour. And it was pretty clear that he fell into it rather than anything else. But I am also convinced that everyone in the Inner Sphere is completely fooled when someone grows a beard and changes their name. Sort of like Superman and his glasses on a universal scale.
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Actually I would argue Stackpole was way more Steiner-centric than Davion-Centric. But be that as it may.
He uses it as backdrops so his awesome Davion/Mercenary heroes can save the day, not much else.
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In military-themed fiction, where are the politicians not villains? Ever? Hell, go back to Homer and it breaks that way.
The Honorverse by David Weber, mind you most of he REALLY Villianous VIllians in his books are indeed Politicians. But als oa good number of the heroes too, Admiral White Haven, Queen Elizabeth, of course White Haven and Honor herself are FORCED to be politicians.
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as mentioned before, the trope is that the only good politicians are military personnel forced into the politicians job - see Honor Harrington , Hanse Davion, Katrina Steiner, Theodore Kurita, Victor Steineretc pp. ad nauseam.
I btw. share the view and I am torn between the Combine (especially the combine during Theodores reforms) and the Clans (more as a whole sociological experiment than any individual clan). No Davionista here.
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It's interesting that everyone who takes this angle seems to be a Davion fan. I wonder if it comes from people who desire simplistic storytelling being drawn to the FS due to how it likes to dress itself up in the source material or that they are being told to by the aforementioned space opera.
Actually, my love for the Davions is based off of my unhealthy desire for more Autocannons. It would also be why I like Steiner as a close second.
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Privyet!
but thanks to the novels I cannot ****** STAND him; he's that pompous little twit who gives speeches all the time rather than having a conversation.
Oh, thank you! I've had a bad day and that made my night! My feelings on VSD and Hanse all rolled up in one nice little turn of phrase!
I will agree that for the most part that Stackpole does not write in shades of grey. There is one notable exception, however: Sun-Tzu Liao. He is shown as craft and intelligent, not mad in the BoK trilogy. He is Machiavellian and Machiavellian poltics is not immoral, it is amoral. It is opportunistic and pragmatic. This is in clear contrast to to Kali, Romano, and Max as written by Stackpole.