Thumper Copperhead round and grounded TAG?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

As you know, Homing/Copperhead rounds are hits the TAGged target by 4+ and all other unit in the same hex suffers 5 points of damage, and if you rolled a 2 or 3 it missed and all units in the hex are suffers 5 points of damage.

The problem is, although the damage on a hit is depend on the artillery, but the area effect damage is not related with the class of the gun at all. So, whatever it is an Arrow IV Homing Missile, a Long Tom Copperhead Round, a Sniper Copperhead Round, a Thumper Copperhead Round, if you failed 4+ all the units in the area are suffers fixed 5 points of damage.

And on a hit, a Thumper Copperhead Round cause 5 points of damage.

Then, what about to have a battery of Thumpers, then aim the TAGs to the ground? whatever it rolled 4+ or not, it always cause 5 points of damage. Also you can put the TAG pointer to the ground, which means you don't need to hit the enemy with evasive maneuver. TAG is not considered as the area-effect weapon, so if you aim for the ground you are surely get a -4 modifier and it rarely fails.

Is there anyone tried it out? I have tested out in some games and it was deadly, for it never miss your target unless the enemy is too far from your designated area, and you can knocks down the enemy before your weapon phase.

[Firesprocket]

The value of the tactic is entirely dependent on the force composition of your opponent.  If your opponent has a modest amount of BA or infantry then it can make an effective, if not cheesy, tactic.  Then again if they are geared out with stealth armor then it is a valid tactic.  You pay a BV cost though for all those laser guided munitions and at the end of the day it will likely be a cost that could have been directed elsewhere to better effect.  For the record I think the rule is a silly one and the spread damage within the hex shouldn't exist.  I've had multiple GMs nix the side effect on the spot because they realized how silly the tactic is and how much it could destroy a game.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yeah, I think that the rules is silly. But if it is a half, rather than a flat number, then I bet that someone still put the TAG on the ground and sink Arrow IV Homing Missiles with guaranteed 10 points of damage per each missile. Perhaps area damage can be reduced to 2 only for Thumper rounds, while the others are keep 5? I don't know.

Well, there are some area effect weapons such as mine clearing missiles, so something that ignores defensive modifier happens. They are not an auto-hit weapon like that, though.

And... well, anyway I found that Thumper have not much a value in the ground combat without that - at least compared by the other artilleries. Only advantage over the others seems Smoke, for Smoke rounds of all three tube artilleries are same so you better shoot it with the most cheaper Thumper.

So I have a mixed feeling for it. It feels nothing more than a bug, but what to do with Thumpers without it of you can use the other artilleries? It is the problem of artilleries as well, though.

[Colt Ward]

Against unarmored targets, I can see the splash damage b/c of the munition's Kinetic Energy Penetrator or Explosively Formed Penetrator will cause some concussion.  Infantry, woods, and buildings should take damage . . .

But honestly?  do not think of it too hard . . . what damage could a concussion, flash or even temp loss of oxygen (FAE effect) do to BA?  FREX, what does a grenade, mortar or artillery shell do if it hits near a tank?

[Daryk]

Thumpers have longer range than Snipers, and weigh less.

As far as FAEs, overpressure is the killing mechanism.  If the seals on the BA can withstand that, they probably won't take any damage...

[Colt Ward]

Considering they are vacuum & NBC rated seals and have their own air . . .

Overpressure is part of the killing mechanism- loss of O2 to keep breathing has a wider foot print for effects depending on certain deployment.  But its not something you run into with a Homing tube or A4 round . . . MAYBE A4 Inferno . . . but BT has their own FAEs IIRC.

[Daryk]

FAEs are in the rules, which is why I brought them up... IO, pages 165-166.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, but he is talking about splash damage from homing rounds . . . which is why I was saying, even if you gave the 'splash' damage that characteristic (being overly generous) it is still not going to do much to intact BA.

[Daryk]

I thought only BA with Fire Resistant armor were immune to incendiary effects?  ???

[Colt Ward]

Inferno is different than the 'flash' of a explosion . . .

Ever get a bit of FAE from being too close when throwing a match at gas?  Sure, it can singe off hair and you might get a 'sun' burn but its not a killer threat unless its a lot bigger.  The initial & brief thermal wave of HE or penetrator round explosions are not going to be a danger top the armored shell that is BA- it has to be a higher temp & longer exposure.

But yes, Fire Resist armor are resistant to Plasma, Flamers, Inferno, A4 Inferno, buildings/forest/fields on fire, and . . . jump jet attack?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Personally, I'd say that Thumper Copperhead rounds cause no damage on a roll of 2 or 3- the reduced explosive load in the shell just isn't sufficient enough.  But that's just me.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Simply miss when it rolls a 2 or 3 seems not bad. Although a lance supported by a Thumper battery will prefer to shoot the TAG on the ground anyways.

Fuel-Air bombs in the real world already prove that it is not effective against armored targets and on a plain ground. It is there for clearing tunnels and inside of the buildings, because its blast can rush through narrow passage. But if you use it on a plain ground its explosive power is quickly dissipated.

Against unarmored targets, I can see the splash damage b/c of the munition's Kinetic Energy Penetrator or Explosively Formed Penetrator will cause some concussion.  Infantry, woods, and buildings should take damage . . .

But honestly?  do not think of it too hard . . . what damage could a concussion, flash or even temp loss of oxygen (FAE effect) do to BA?  FREX, what does a grenade, mortar or artillery shell do if it hits near a tank?

Artillery shells in the real world do harms tanks even if it doesn't direct hit the tanks, although it is unlikely that it gets neutralized so easily. It is true that they will not suffer much internal damage, but artillery shells' fragments and blast can damaging weak spots such as tracks and periscopes so it is never be a wise plan to be exposed by the enemy battery. A 'lucky shot' on the tank rarely happens, but it is also a threat too.

[Colt Ward]

Artillery will harm tanks if its DPICM (airburst shell w/cluster munitions) or a Copperhead . . . regular HE with the different fuses will not without a direct hit.  It WILL degrade them by doing things like sheering off antennae.  Vision blocks are pretty well sheltered . . . so yeah, it takes a direct hit either to the top or onto the tracks to really do anything.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Artillery will harm tanks if its DPICM (airburst shell w/cluster munitions) or a Copperhead . . . regular HE with the different fuses will not without a direct hit.  It WILL degrade them by doing things like sheering off antennae.  Vision blocks are pretty well sheltered . . . so yeah, it takes a direct hit either to the top or onto the tracks to really do anything.

Yes, it will harm the tanks with regular HE, as I said above. Even the near-miss impact was able to break the track. I doubt that direct hit is a serious threat, for we all know that it rarely happens, but it doesn't need a direct hit to harm them in the first place. You don't need to crack the body of the tank and kills/harms the crew in order to neutralized it. You can simply make it immobile before blow it off even in Battletech games.

Although the original research in the real world is based on Cold War era tanks, but the artillery is only 155mm either. That's almost Thumper level of firepower or even weaker.

And, remember that rifles are cause less damage against standard or better armors in 31th, while 'modern' artilleries are still cause the same damage against such armors. It is not so difficult to guess that they are adapt to the progression of the military armors.