Author Topic: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?  (Read 5475 times)

Shin Ji

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I'm trying to figure out some of the details for how the rules work in practice. This is for an Inner Sphere lance in 3049, so the only specifically anti-air weapon on the table is the LB 10-X, but I'm not sure that actually does much in practice. Hitting even a conventional fighter for just a few scattered points of damage doesn't force difficult control rolls, right?

From what I can tell, it seems what you want is a Gauss rifle and a Mechwarrior with a really low Gunnery stat. Am I missing something?

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #1 on: 21 December 2019, 09:36:10 »
If you use the fluff, AAA mech suites/avionics make a huge difference, especially when linked to other AAA platforms. You also want weapons that are threshold breakers, so reach + high damage essential, ERPPC or Gauss weapons are ideal.

Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #2 on: 21 December 2019, 09:45:20 »
Lawn dart checks are indeed caused by even a single point of damage, which is why AC/2s work so well.  It's not that the control rolls are difficult... it's that if you fail, you pretty much die.

TigerShark

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #3 on: 21 December 2019, 10:12:14 »
I'm trying to figure out some of the details for how the rules work in practice. This is for an Inner Sphere lance in 3049, so the only specifically anti-air weapon on the table is the LB 10-X, but I'm not sure that actually does much in practice. Hitting even a conventional fighter for just a few scattered points of damage doesn't force difficult control rolls, right?

From what I can tell, it seems what you want is a Gauss rifle and a Mechwarrior with a really low Gunnery stat. Am I missing something?
It really depends on the rule set you're using. TW as-written? "Use the longest-ranged thing you have access to." Period. A single hit causes a PSR check. If you're using StratOps rules, you want "something with 10+ damage," like a PPC, Gauss Rifle, ER PPC, etc., since they will cause a threshold check, even if a PSR isn't needed (i.e.: you did less than 20 damage).
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Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #4 on: 21 December 2019, 10:32:18 »
The trick with the StratOps rules is that the "Advanced Atmospheric Control Rolls" rule on page 97 (which reduces the chances of forcing a control roll as TigerShark outlines above) was really meant to be used in conjunction with the "Advanced Anti-Aircraft" one on page 95 (which makes it MUCH easer to hit aerospace units).  Basically, they were meant to balance one another out.  If you only use one of them, you're really giving one side or the other an advantage.

dgorsman

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #5 on: 21 December 2019, 10:36:30 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.
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TigerShark

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #6 on: 21 December 2019, 11:04:22 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.
Advanced AA rules are now the Total Warfare standard, as of the errata. It's much easier to hit Aero right now, but without the balance on the other side you mentioned.
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Shin Ji

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #7 on: 21 December 2019, 11:25:29 »
Yes, I was confused about the Advanced AA rules, since in my version of Total Warfare, those are just the rules! I guess my version has the errata incorporated already then.

Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #8 on: 21 December 2019, 11:44:29 »
Ah, missed the errata... thanks TigerShark!  :thumbsup:

AlphaMirage

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #9 on: 21 December 2019, 13:08:05 »
Good supporting formations, Aerospace fighters move in straight lines so arrange yourself like this

**X**
X***X
**X**

That way at least two mechs are on the line and suffer no additional penalties to shoot a fighter while you are still spread out against strafing or bombing attacks

Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #10 on: 21 December 2019, 16:28:43 »
Conventional fighters cannot mount more than 50 pts of armor ... so an AC2 would be fine, If they put enough armor on the nose to shrug the AC2 off, then the wings are going to vulnerable to flocks of seagulls.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #11 on: 21 December 2019, 18:30:45 »
For mechs hitting fighters, you want to go all 8th Air Force on them, and cluster up in supporting formations where it becomes impossible for the fighters to attack one mech without taking fire from three or four. Beyond that, there are 100 roles for AA.

Rules 1 through 98 are just the word 'range' repeated over and over, louder each time, so that hopefully even a pet rock will get the hint. To sum up: An aerospace fighter's only defense against ground fire is range modifiers. Nothing else. Therefore, to hit them, you need weapons that can achieve medium or short-range mods at a fair distance. Because of the way lawn-dart rolls work (assuming standard rules), that's all you need. Raw damage is irrelevant, you just need to hit them with something, anything.

Rule 99 is to-hit bonuses. Pulse weapons, flak mods, anything else that helps you in that all-important goal of scoring a hit any hit, and help overcoming range penalties.

Rule 100 is damage. Yes, I know what I said before. Scoring the hit is all-important...but once you know you can, yeah big guns are better for forcing threshold crits. Because nothing drains all hope from an ASF user like just barely making the lawn dart roll...and then having to make another roll because of a Control or Avionics crit.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #12 on: 22 December 2019, 02:59:16 »
Conventional fighters cannot mount more than 50 pts of armor ... so an AC2 would be fine, If they put enough armor on the nose to shrug the AC2 off, then the wings are going to vulnerable to flocks of seagulls.

To be fair, a Flock of Seagulls can be pretty terrifying.
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StoneRhino

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #13 on: 22 December 2019, 12:42:47 »
To be fair, a Flock of Seagulls can be pretty terrifying.

Yeah, but all you need to do is run, run so far away.....
but I guess you won't likely get away...
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #14 on: 22 December 2019, 14:32:30 »
Yeah, but all you need to do is run, run so far away.....
but I guess you won't likely get away...
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #15 on: 22 December 2019, 14:33:16 »
To be fair, a Flock of Seagulls can be pretty terrifying.

Always amazed to watch a special on airplane (near) disasters involving wildlife.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #16 on: 22 December 2019, 14:34:08 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.


The Blackjack is one of my favorite AA platforms for this reason.  Paired AC2s aren’t useful for a whole lot, but loaded with flak shells they become very worrying to anything airborne (and surprisingly effective against conventional infantry, to boot*).  And the Blackjack is still a decent combatant on the ground, with 4 MLs, jump jets, good armor, and decent heat dissipation (very little of which can be said of JagerMechs or Riflemen).


*unlike normal AC ammo, Flak rounds do full damage to infantry.  Now, that’s not much of a boost for an AC-2, but it’s still a boost.  Every little bit helps, right?
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Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #17 on: 22 December 2019, 14:38:44 »
The funniest thing is that a Blackjack could take either a Rifleman or a Jagermech…  ^-^

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #18 on: 22 December 2019, 21:06:39 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.

Use the Bane 3. 8 LRM 15s scares everything...

Weirdo

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #19 on: 22 December 2019, 21:20:22 »
Any mech with an LRM rack can perform at least moderate anti-aircraft duty, but yeah, a Kraken 3 can single-handedly reenact those news videos of AA fire rising from Baghdad. Any aircraft that overflies the same mapsheet as a Kraken deserves what is about to happen.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #20 on: 23 December 2019, 01:29:06 »
To be fair, a Kraken 3 is terrifying to just about anything that's not covered in a huge slab of Reactive Armor.
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dgorsman

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #21 on: 23 December 2019, 01:32:03 »
And a slab of chain-firing AMSs.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #22 on: 23 December 2019, 18:02:22 »
A Mauler would be a fun AA mech too.  “Oh, it’s just a Mauler.  They suck.”  say the ground forces.  “4 AC-2s, 30 LRM tubes, ER Large Lasers?  Abort!  Abort!” say the flyboys.
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Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #23 on: 23 December 2019, 18:07:21 »
Exactly... I'm having that precise discussion about one of the campaign games I'm in at the moment...

Weirdo

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #24 on: 23 December 2019, 18:10:11 »
Yup.

Hey, I forget. Does TW still have the prohibition again shooting at secondary targets in any turn that you try AA fire? If not, I could see a Mauler hanging back and providing cover fire for multiple friendlies at once.
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #25 on: 23 December 2019, 18:45:52 »
A Mauler would be a fun AA mech too.  “Oh, it’s just a Mauler.  They suck.”  say the ground forces.  “4 AC-2s, 30 LRM tubes, ER Large Lasers?  Abort!  Abort!” say the flyboys.

Been a while, but does the Mauler have the (D)HS to put that much firepower in the air?  The threat is enough, honestly.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #26 on: 23 December 2019, 18:48:30 »
A Mauler can fire one ER Large Laser and all of its LRMs and ACs while standing still and only generate 2 heat.
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #27 on: 23 December 2019, 19:18:54 »
A Mauler can fire one ER Large Laser and all of its LRMs and ACs while standing still and only generate 2 heat.

That's not that too bad, just requires some patient firing.  LPPCs might make a good change, saved tonnage for short range MLs possibly. --different thread, however.
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Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #28 on: 23 December 2019, 19:26:37 »
Light PPCs would reduce the range.  I can think of at least one better trade, but that starts to get into fan design territory....

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #29 on: 23 December 2019, 19:47:58 »
There's the 2R variant with LRM 10s, Ultra AC 2s, and four ER Medium Lasers.
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