Author Topic: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?  (Read 5480 times)

Shin Ji

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I'm trying to figure out some of the details for how the rules work in practice. This is for an Inner Sphere lance in 3049, so the only specifically anti-air weapon on the table is the LB 10-X, but I'm not sure that actually does much in practice. Hitting even a conventional fighter for just a few scattered points of damage doesn't force difficult control rolls, right?

From what I can tell, it seems what you want is a Gauss rifle and a Mechwarrior with a really low Gunnery stat. Am I missing something?

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #1 on: 21 December 2019, 09:36:10 »
If you use the fluff, AAA mech suites/avionics make a huge difference, especially when linked to other AAA platforms. You also want weapons that are threshold breakers, so reach + high damage essential, ERPPC or Gauss weapons are ideal.

Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #2 on: 21 December 2019, 09:45:20 »
Lawn dart checks are indeed caused by even a single point of damage, which is why AC/2s work so well.  It's not that the control rolls are difficult... it's that if you fail, you pretty much die.

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #3 on: 21 December 2019, 10:12:14 »
I'm trying to figure out some of the details for how the rules work in practice. This is for an Inner Sphere lance in 3049, so the only specifically anti-air weapon on the table is the LB 10-X, but I'm not sure that actually does much in practice. Hitting even a conventional fighter for just a few scattered points of damage doesn't force difficult control rolls, right?

From what I can tell, it seems what you want is a Gauss rifle and a Mechwarrior with a really low Gunnery stat. Am I missing something?
It really depends on the rule set you're using. TW as-written? "Use the longest-ranged thing you have access to." Period. A single hit causes a PSR check. If you're using StratOps rules, you want "something with 10+ damage," like a PPC, Gauss Rifle, ER PPC, etc., since they will cause a threshold check, even if a PSR isn't needed (i.e.: you did less than 20 damage).
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Daryk

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #4 on: 21 December 2019, 10:32:18 »
The trick with the StratOps rules is that the "Advanced Atmospheric Control Rolls" rule on page 97 (which reduces the chances of forcing a control roll as TigerShark outlines above) was really meant to be used in conjunction with the "Advanced Anti-Aircraft" one on page 95 (which makes it MUCH easer to hit aerospace units).  Basically, they were meant to balance one another out.  If you only use one of them, you're really giving one side or the other an advantage.

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #5 on: 21 December 2019, 10:36:30 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #6 on: 21 December 2019, 11:04:22 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.
Advanced AA rules are now the Total Warfare standard, as of the errata. It's much easier to hit Aero right now, but without the balance on the other side you mentioned.
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Shin Ji

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #7 on: 21 December 2019, 11:25:29 »
Yes, I was confused about the Advanced AA rules, since in my version of Total Warfare, those are just the rules! I guess my version has the errata incorporated already then.

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #8 on: 21 December 2019, 11:44:29 »
Ah, missed the errata... thanks TigerShark!  :thumbsup:

AlphaMirage

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #9 on: 21 December 2019, 13:08:05 »
Good supporting formations, Aerospace fighters move in straight lines so arrange yourself like this

**X**
X***X
**X**

That way at least two mechs are on the line and suffer no additional penalties to shoot a fighter while you are still spread out against strafing or bombing attacks

Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #10 on: 21 December 2019, 16:28:43 »
Conventional fighters cannot mount more than 50 pts of armor ... so an AC2 would be fine, If they put enough armor on the nose to shrug the AC2 off, then the wings are going to vulnerable to flocks of seagulls.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #11 on: 21 December 2019, 18:30:45 »
For mechs hitting fighters, you want to go all 8th Air Force on them, and cluster up in supporting formations where it becomes impossible for the fighters to attack one mech without taking fire from three or four. Beyond that, there are 100 roles for AA.

Rules 1 through 98 are just the word 'range' repeated over and over, louder each time, so that hopefully even a pet rock will get the hint. To sum up: An aerospace fighter's only defense against ground fire is range modifiers. Nothing else. Therefore, to hit them, you need weapons that can achieve medium or short-range mods at a fair distance. Because of the way lawn-dart rolls work (assuming standard rules), that's all you need. Raw damage is irrelevant, you just need to hit them with something, anything.

Rule 99 is to-hit bonuses. Pulse weapons, flak mods, anything else that helps you in that all-important goal of scoring a hit any hit, and help overcoming range penalties.

Rule 100 is damage. Yes, I know what I said before. Scoring the hit is all-important...but once you know you can, yeah big guns are better for forcing threshold crits. Because nothing drains all hope from an ASF user like just barely making the lawn dart roll...and then having to make another roll because of a Control or Avionics crit.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #12 on: 22 December 2019, 02:59:16 »
Conventional fighters cannot mount more than 50 pts of armor ... so an AC2 would be fine, If they put enough armor on the nose to shrug the AC2 off, then the wings are going to vulnerable to flocks of seagulls.

To be fair, a Flock of Seagulls can be pretty terrifying.
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StoneRhino

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #13 on: 22 December 2019, 12:42:47 »
To be fair, a Flock of Seagulls can be pretty terrifying.

Yeah, but all you need to do is run, run so far away.....
but I guess you won't likely get away...
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #14 on: 22 December 2019, 14:32:30 »
Yeah, but all you need to do is run, run so far away.....
but I guess you won't likely get away...
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #15 on: 22 December 2019, 14:33:16 »
To be fair, a Flock of Seagulls can be pretty terrifying.

Always amazed to watch a special on airplane (near) disasters involving wildlife.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #16 on: 22 December 2019, 14:34:08 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.


The Blackjack is one of my favorite AA platforms for this reason.  Paired AC2s aren’t useful for a whole lot, but loaded with flak shells they become very worrying to anything airborne (and surprisingly effective against conventional infantry, to boot*).  And the Blackjack is still a decent combatant on the ground, with 4 MLs, jump jets, good armor, and decent heat dissipation (very little of which can be said of JagerMechs or Riflemen).


*unlike normal AC ammo, Flak rounds do full damage to infantry.  Now, that’s not much of a boost for an AC-2, but it’s still a boost.  Every little bit helps, right?
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #17 on: 22 December 2019, 14:38:44 »
The funniest thing is that a Blackjack could take either a Rifleman or a Jagermech…  ^-^

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #18 on: 22 December 2019, 21:06:39 »
Flak autocannon ammo for the old classics like the Rifleman and Jagermech, as well.  Large LRM racks can be useful even without the to-hit bonus, multiple hits (5/3, 5/5/2, etc.).  5 points is enough to penetrate most conventional fighters and threshold wings and rear of light and medium aerospace.

Use the Bane 3. 8 LRM 15s scares everything...

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #19 on: 22 December 2019, 21:20:22 »
Any mech with an LRM rack can perform at least moderate anti-aircraft duty, but yeah, a Kraken 3 can single-handedly reenact those news videos of AA fire rising from Baghdad. Any aircraft that overflies the same mapsheet as a Kraken deserves what is about to happen.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #20 on: 23 December 2019, 01:29:06 »
To be fair, a Kraken 3 is terrifying to just about anything that's not covered in a huge slab of Reactive Armor.
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dgorsman

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #21 on: 23 December 2019, 01:32:03 »
And a slab of chain-firing AMSs.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #22 on: 23 December 2019, 18:02:22 »
A Mauler would be a fun AA mech too.  “Oh, it’s just a Mauler.  They suck.”  say the ground forces.  “4 AC-2s, 30 LRM tubes, ER Large Lasers?  Abort!  Abort!” say the flyboys.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #23 on: 23 December 2019, 18:07:21 »
Exactly... I'm having that precise discussion about one of the campaign games I'm in at the moment...

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #24 on: 23 December 2019, 18:10:11 »
Yup.

Hey, I forget. Does TW still have the prohibition again shooting at secondary targets in any turn that you try AA fire? If not, I could see a Mauler hanging back and providing cover fire for multiple friendlies at once.
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #25 on: 23 December 2019, 18:45:52 »
A Mauler would be a fun AA mech too.  “Oh, it’s just a Mauler.  They suck.”  say the ground forces.  “4 AC-2s, 30 LRM tubes, ER Large Lasers?  Abort!  Abort!” say the flyboys.

Been a while, but does the Mauler have the (D)HS to put that much firepower in the air?  The threat is enough, honestly.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #26 on: 23 December 2019, 18:48:30 »
A Mauler can fire one ER Large Laser and all of its LRMs and ACs while standing still and only generate 2 heat.
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Wolf72

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #27 on: 23 December 2019, 19:18:54 »
A Mauler can fire one ER Large Laser and all of its LRMs and ACs while standing still and only generate 2 heat.

That's not that too bad, just requires some patient firing.  LPPCs might make a good change, saved tonnage for short range MLs possibly. --different thread, however.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #28 on: 23 December 2019, 19:26:37 »
Light PPCs would reduce the range.  I can think of at least one better trade, but that starts to get into fan design territory....

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #29 on: 23 December 2019, 19:47:58 »
There's the 2R variant with LRM 10s, Ultra AC 2s, and four ER Medium Lasers.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #30 on: 23 December 2019, 19:49:54 »
I'd take the stock one over that for AA duty...

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #31 on: 23 December 2019, 20:32:15 »
Light PPCs would reduce the range.  I can think of at least one better trade, but that starts to get into fan design territory....
one whole hex, no big deal till you need 19 hexes, lol.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #32 on: 23 December 2019, 20:44:57 »
How much difference does 8 points of damage vs 5 points for thresholding ASFs?
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #33 on: 23 December 2019, 21:25:16 »
That depends entirely on the ASFs you're facing...

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #34 on: 23 December 2019, 21:29:38 »
Pretty big. Fighters that can get thresholded by the ubiquitous 5-point hit are the ones you consider fragile, and just about any hit scares the crap out of you. Fighters that can laugh off large lasers are getting into flying brick territory, the kind of stuff you don't bother trying to crit out and just grind into dust, or into the dust. The middle ground consists of stuff that doesn't worry about crits from most AA fire, but will be rudely surprised by ER Larges.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #35 on: 23 December 2019, 22:07:26 »
Pretty big. Fighters that can get thresholded by the ubiquitous 5-point hit are the ones you consider fragile, and just about any hit scares the crap out of you. Fighters that can laugh off large lasers are getting into flying brick territory, the kind of stuff you don't bother trying to crit out and just grind into dust, or into the dust. The middle ground consists of stuff that doesn't worry about crits from most AA fire, but will be rudely surprised by ER Larges.

Which is why light ppc’s with ppc capacitors would seem to be your friends for AA fire.

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #36 on: 24 December 2019, 12:43:55 »
ERLLs are more sustained, which is good if the fighters are faster than 3/5, or if they're arriving in waves.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #37 on: 24 December 2019, 18:49:32 »
Fine, fine!

I'll just take a Supernova ... I'll TRY not to alpha strike, b/c failing a shut down roll is easier for some of us more than others.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #38 on: 27 December 2019, 10:51:54 »
Conventional fighters cannot mount more than 50 pts of armor ... so an AC2 would be fine, If they put enough armor on the nose to shrug the AC2 off, then the wings are going to vulnerable to flocks of seagulls.
There's a great story about bird-strike testing in the UK, where they built their own version of what the US Air Force called its "Rooster Booster".  When they did their first test of a chicken carcass launched against the windscreen of a jet as the test subject, the bird went through what was supposed to be a strike-resistant canopy, destroyed the seat, and embedded itself in the rear wall of the cockpit.  A quick call was made to the US, to explain the situation and try to get some insight as to what went wrong.  The reply came back almost immediately: "thaw the bird first".

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #39 on: 27 December 2019, 12:14:24 »
The version of that story I heard reversed the two countries.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #40 on: 27 December 2019, 13:36:14 »
The version of that story I heard reversed the two countries.

The story is believed by some to be a bit of a folk tale (though one general used to tell the story as if it was true).  One reason why it is believed to be not true is that the US Air force actually did a test that used frozen birds since at the time it was decided that if a frozen bird could not bust through then a living bird would not either even if the bird tensed up for collision.   

There are many variations of the tale sometimes changing the country like you mention but also which test as sometimes it is an engine test rather than a window check.

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #41 on: 27 December 2019, 14:10:02 »
It got pretty famous when it was tested on Mythbusters.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #42 on: 27 December 2019, 15:02:51 »
It got pretty famous when it was tested on Mythbusters.

Yes and as I recall they did the version of it where it was the glass being tested.  That was a fun episode.   

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #43 on: 28 December 2019, 15:58:10 »
Boeing was definitely firing birds into engines circa 2002: https://youtu.be/jTKfFxwpbUU  (it’s at about the 2:00 mark)
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #44 on: 01 January 2020, 09:54:19 »
Yup.

Hey, I forget. Does TW still have the prohibition again shooting at secondary targets in any turn that you try AA fire? If not, I could see a Mauler hanging back and providing cover fire for multiple friendlies at once.

Yes, that prohibition still remains, at least it's in effect in MegaMek. My experience thus far has indicated that, while the LB2-X *seems* like the ideal anti-air platform, it's not that great in practice. Usually the pilot has to make one or two rolls at about 7, but even if they miss the roll, they usually don't actually crash.

What does work are Clan Pulses! I tell ya, is there anything those things *can't* do? In fact, one time they worked too well, causing a plane to crash into the hex one of my Mechs! like, 100+ damage the hard way...

Col Toda

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #45 on: 03 January 2020, 09:53:31 »
An O-Bakemono shooting  2 Air Defense  Arrow IV rounds at long range 3 map boards away . Or short range 1 map board away doing 20 points of damage  in 1 location demanding both control and likely  critical tolls,  perhaps before aerospace or conventional fighter can attack at all .

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #46 on: 03 January 2020, 19:02:09 »
...perhaps before aerospace or conventional fighter can attack at all .

99.999% of the time, this won't happen. Unless you're talking about a big slow fighter that is dangerously loaded with bombs(protip: don't ever load your fighters to the point their speed drops below 3/5), every fighter in the game will go from out of range from even ADAs to right on top of them in a single movement phase.

ADAs are not about hitting fighters before they can strike. They're about hitting fighters in very large games, where an ADA unit can fire at fighters that are hitting your buddies a couple mapsheets away.
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Col Toda

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #47 on: 06 January 2020, 11:57:19 »
Still think the ADA is the way for a mech to fight conventional and aerospace fighters.

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #48 on: 06 January 2020, 12:04:51 »
It's a solid weapon, yes. I just don't want people getting the impression that it's some kind of superweapon that can actually prevent airstrikes from happening. Only friendly air power can prevent the first airstrikes. Ground fire is about preventing the second strike.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #49 on: 06 January 2020, 12:11:58 »
Or on a strategic level discouraging attack on a particular site.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #50 on: 06 January 2020, 12:29:45 »
Possibly, I'll take your word for that one. Strategic concerns are rarely a thing for me, I'm a pickup game kinda guy.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #51 on: 06 January 2020, 17:18:19 »
AA duty is something I always loved for the Garm . . . LB-5X and LRMs, jump jets so it can make the combat drops to support the bigger machines.  I think its why a lot of the low end meds get a 2 or 5 class pop gun.  Heck, give it flak rounds and the Clint is pretty useful for that role.

But for defenders, Scorpions & Vedettes are for AA to screen the mech forces IMO.  Defensive forces, like planetary militias and noble guards can use vehicles for AA roles while the mechs fight other mechs or armor, sort of reinforcing the old knights trope.

While RCTs might have their armor formations to call on AA sub-units (its hard for me not to make a BTU regiment 'brigade' like), IMO they always need a few mechs in each BN that can be tasked to cover that job for drops since its the only AA cover they will have until the cargo transports land to unload vehicles.
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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #52 on: 06 January 2020, 19:56:33 »
Boeing was definitely firing birds into engines circa 2002: https://youtu.be/jTKfFxwpbUU  (it’s at about the 2:00 mark)

The Chicken gun was invented in the 1950s for De Havilland at my old University, the University of Hertfordshire (or Hatfield Polytechnic as it was at the time);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_gun

This would lead me to believe that if the urban myth is true, it was probably the Americans who needed to thaw their chickens out.

Perhaps we should rearm Jagermechs with smooth bore compressed air cannons and shoot frozen turkeys at the the Jade Falcons - it would certainly be a step up from the Jagermech's rather poultry standard armament...
« Last Edit: 06 January 2020, 20:01:17 by Getz »

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #53 on: 06 January 2020, 22:55:41 »
 :D Rim shot from the drums.
 Make sure the birds are painted green.

dgorsman

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Re: The best way to fight Aero and Conventional Fighters as a Mech?
« Reply #54 on: 07 January 2020, 00:01:30 »
I can *so* see a Clan Wolf garrison unit doing that.   ;D
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