Author Topic: A Time of War 2nd edition?  (Read 46315 times)

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #120 on: 10 August 2019, 16:49:20 »
If a diplomat player spends time wining and dining a NPC I as the GM have to decide if;
I'm going to just give him the Connections trait (100+x p)
Force him to wait till he can pay 100 xp to get something he should get from role-playing
Or have him waste xp building up to having something he should get from role-playing

No - you make him build the connection and the better he does that, the stronger it becomes. If needs be, you make him roll to see how well he schmoozes the mark, and if successful, he can add the NPC as a connection. I don't see any point in using XP for what should be roleplaying. The Connections trait is there to address connections made during character generation, not gameplay.

Quote
either I give him a free 100x p for pissing someone off or he/she gets a negative trait without any benefits.

Yeah - no benefits. He should have ticked off the powerful NPC and next time he'll learn to hold his mouth.

Quote
Either way you look at it the high point value is what really creates the issues here.

Well, technically it's the use of a bad example...
 
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Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #121 on: 10 August 2019, 16:51:30 »
remind me never to play at your table. ;D
*snip*
LOL!  I suspect geography will take care of that problem...  ;)

Talen5000 is heading down a path I mostly agree with.  The flavor differentiation can be accounted for with the flexibility inherent in the system, and I think that was the TPTB's intent.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #122 on: 10 August 2019, 16:52:50 »
As for Robroy's point (+1 for name selection there, btw), I believe in giving the players SOMETHING for the pain I'm going to inflict due to their behavior.  "Live fast, die young" applies to PCs too...

You are.

The knowledge and experience that backtalking the First Prince of the Federated Suns is a good way to get your self sent to the Clan front.
A valuable life lesson.

More succinctly - if he roleplayed the character well, he gets a suitable XP reward. But he doesn't get the reward simply by gaining an enemy and he doesn't need to spend the XP to gain a connection.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2019, 16:57:28 by Talen5000 »
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Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #123 on: 10 August 2019, 16:56:33 »
The enforced timeout from the 'mech cockpit is only part of the pain I'm inflicting.  There's still that court martial waiting down the line...  ^-^

victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #124 on: 10 August 2019, 17:00:29 »
End of the day, those are all training academies, with similar curriculums and differ mainly in the people attending them...which is the Faction part of character generation. While you can certainly create different modules for each school, what differences are there that would be worth creating that table? You have a different school song, different school emblems and colours, maybe an enhanced reputation for going to New Albion and a poorer one for attending Blackjack.

Ditto.

Yes - but what differences do you imagine there can be? It isn't that I object to your desire, but I'm not seeing the need for such specific modules when the end result are characters that are taught the same things, with flavour and personalisation coming from the same pool of flexible XP. I mean, if I want a character from the Robinson Academy, I can just add Quirk\Hates Combine - or switch that to Liao for the Warriors Hall.

There is a benefit to what you ask for...but I'm not sure it is as large a benefit to warrant the effort to be put into it and it runs into the problem MW3  did - too many paths split over too many books.

You see I don't agree with you here.
Outside of the Quirk\Hates Combine, to me each academy had different curriculum's.
While you are correct that the main field skills they teach are going to be the same.
The difference comes in in the extracurricular and non-field skills.
Like Melee Weapons being more impotent at a Combine academy or protocol being a major skill at one of the premiere academy.
And Contacts and other traits being mandatory to enter some of the academy.
The point is even if they use the current generic academy and give the option to add a school flavor package it would be a step in the right direction for me.

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #125 on: 10 August 2019, 17:04:20 »
Hmmm... a school flavor package would be enough for you?  I think I may have found my next AToW tweak thread there.  Give me a week or two to at least get my game off Astrokaszy, and I'll take a shot at it.  I think the flex XP are more than enough to work with there.  The trick will be scoping it so the Faction level tweak leaves enough flex for the individual institution tweaks down the line...

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #126 on: 10 August 2019, 17:09:36 »
You see I don't agree with you here.
Outside of the Quirk\Hates Combine, to me each academy had different curriculum's.
While you are correct that the main field skills they teach are going to be the same.
The difference comes in in the extracurricular and non-field skills.
Like Melee Weapons being more impotent at a Combine academy or protocol being a major skill at one of the premiere academy.
And Contacts and other traits being mandatory to enter some of the academy.
The point is even if they use the current generic academy and give the option to add a school flavor package it would be a step in the right direction for me.

All of which can be added via the flexible XP option should you desire.
What the game doesn't do is tell you how to spend your XPs to gain that flavour.
Would there be a benefit in doing so? Yes....but looking at the lifepath system, I think it would be a minor benefit for a fairly major cost in time.

ATOW gives you a generic academy and flexible XPs to address flavour. You also have a faction and sub faction options.

What you want can be done...but I think, for the most part, the cost isn't worth it.
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victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #127 on: 10 August 2019, 17:33:26 »
All of which can be added via the flexible XP option should you desire.
What the game doesn't do is tell you how to spend your XPs to gain that flavour.
Would there be a benefit in doing so? Yes....but looking at the lifepath system, I think it would be a minor benefit for a fairly major cost in time.

ATOW gives you a generic academy and flexible XPs to address flavour. You also have a faction and sub faction options.

What you want can be done...but I think, for the most part, the cost isn't worth it.

Never said they couldn't be covered by flexible XPs.
The issues is what is the difference between one school or another.
I've never gone to a Combine academy and neither has anyone else on these forums. (unless something weird is happening)
So how do I spend my flexible XPs to simulate it? What if my friends PC goes there and he chooses a more academic flexible XPs grouping.
The Combine academy loses flavor because there is no direction
That's what guides like lifepaths are for, to tell you what a Combine academy is like.
If they don't then there just a group of skills that mean nothing.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #128 on: 10 August 2019, 19:02:20 »
Never said they couldn't be covered by flexible XPs.
The issues is what is the difference between one school or another.
I've never gone to a Combine academy and neither has anyone else on these forums. (unless something weird is happening)
So how do I spend my flexible XPs to simulate it? What if my friends PC goes there and he chooses a more academic flexible XPs grouping.
The Combine academy loses flavor because there is no direction
That's what guides like lifepaths are for, to tell you what a Combine academy is like.
If they don't then there just a group of skills that mean nothing.


Well, let's compare.

The NAIS increased 4 stats and gave you traits of promotion and well-equipped.
You got an academic skill, a bureaucracy skill, computers, swimming and advanced training in leadership, strategy, your choice of 3 skills, and access to a field

In ATOW , this would presumably count as a Military school for 830XP, plus field costs.
You have a pre requisites which add flavour, you get XP  towards traits and skills and stats, and you get a choice of military fields.
You get a standard training which is likely to be shared between all such academies, and 100XP for customisation and flavour skills. And access to Advanced and Special Training

How do you spend your XP to simulate it? You don't. You dont have to. You simply say "This is where I went. This is where I trained."

Now, I get you want flavour...but what is the major difference between say, the NAIS and Sangalmore? Both elite colleges, both with similar schools and standards. The differences in culture are going to be based on their native faction - you aren't likely to get Quirk /Pro-Skye with the NAIS - and not on the type or quality of training which is what comes with the Academy. And you get that type of flavour with your choice of faction and sub-faction. Not your choice of school. Even in MW3 where such lists were given, what was offered? You got bonuses in stats, in traits, and access to field skills. And for military schools, bonuses to BOD, RFL, Well Equipped and Promotion were common...as were skills such as protocol\faction.  All of which are fairly generic and covered by flexible skill points.

So yes - some "guidance" might be beneficial. But the guidance is that at the NAIS, you get taught Military History\Federated Suns while at the SZA, it'll be Military History\Draconis Combine. In one, it'll be Protocol\FedSuns, in the other Protocol\Combine. In one it'll be langauge\Japanese, the other Language\English.

What I am trying to say is that yes - I understand the desire for detail, for flavour.
But, given the relatively minor differences you are talking about, providing that sort of detail simpy isn't worth it. And given the way MW3 and ATOW operate, you can't easily rework the Lifepaths from one to the other either.  What you would end up doing would be to reduce the flexibile XP at each Academy in favour of small bonuses to skills or traits

ATOW provides you the opportunity to be family trained, to be enlisted, to go to an elite academy or OCS, and they cover the major pathways.

Now, as I said -there is a benefit to what you want. But also a cost in page count, and in spreading the information around between books. Now, the ideal place for such a product would be the equivalent of the Handbook or House Books or Field Manuals. Overall though, I woud not expect them. Which is a pity. But one that I think is understandable -  it would be a major cost in time, in opportunity, in page cost and in player convenience for what ultimately is very minor gain. The existing rules simply tell you to pick a Major Academy, add the exacvt school to your character bio, gives you a standrd skill set and allows you to add elective skills and traits to provide flavour, much of which is provdied by the Faction anyway.




« Last Edit: 16 August 2019, 01:30:33 by Talen5000 »
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Zinmar

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #129 on: 15 August 2019, 16:29:10 »
Agreed that the system is pretty time consuming to create a character. That being said I finally built a character along the lines of John Wick. Some aspects were different as I wanted other skills, so I chose different paths. All in all it did accomplish what I wanted just took a while.

BirdofPrey

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #130 on: 18 August 2019, 22:56:59 »
Well some good news, iirc they mentioned in the AMA last night they want the new Destiny thing to sit alongside AToW not replace it.  So sounds like AS to TW kinda thing.

Anyway, I saw you folks were discussion BA, and last I had checked BA still needs some work.  Most non tournament legal equipment doesn't have AToW stats, this goes for both BA equipment itself as well as anti infantry equipment for mechs/vehicles.  There's also a few pieces of equipment with undefined interactions with the rules, and BA Myomer boosters and vibro battleclaws are backwards in their effectiveness.

Anyway I'm going to have to add my support to AToW char gen being a huge pain in the ass.  Not insurmountable, but ideally the system shouldn't be quite so unappealing.  I'd also second that the tiny 5XP stuff is pointless.  That's not much of an XP bank since it's such a small fraction of a level.  I'd say if they really wanted to push a propensity toward something without giving you a whole skill level, something more like a quarter of a skill level is a better choice, but at the end of the day, most of the time any incomplete levels are just going to get optimized away.

I can see some issues trying to overhaul the whole system, though, that'd break the sourcebooks AGAIN, when the system still PLAYS pretty well, so I think it might be a good idea to change how they do their pregen characters.  I'd love to see a bog standard X type of character (face, mechwarrior, tech etc.) with job related skills, and a menu of backgrounds below that add the more flavor based skills (eg, DEST troopers with their Katanas) or some other easy way of making the premade characters less generic.

monbvol

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #131 on: 18 August 2019, 23:47:43 »
I know there is a formula for weapons not listed to get their AToW stats but might not be great for handling stuff with AI tags.

There are a number of items that I think have suffered from someone grabbing the stats for one piece of gear and swapping them for another.  This is something I do hope they fix in the future.

BirdofPrey

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #132 on: 18 August 2019, 23:56:48 »
I know there's a formula for converting mech/vehicle scale weapons to AToW, but BA weapons fall into a sort of middle ground (as for AI weapons), so those don't convert as neatly.  It was a few years ago that I asked, but I was told there wasn't a specific conversion rule for that.  Herb said they started with the conversion rules then fudged it a bit.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #133 on: 19 August 2019, 04:23:43 »
I know there's a formula for converting mech/vehicle scale weapons to AToW, but BA weapons fall into a sort of middle ground (as for AI weapons), so those don't convert as neatly.  It was a few years ago that I asked, but I was told there wasn't a specific conversion rule for that.  Herb said they started with the conversion rules then fudged it a bit.

I still think that conversion rules are the wrong way to go.

Preferable, IMO, to start with tbe box set and go from there. Namely....you don't need to convert small arms and support weapons  because the answer is the same..they do zero damage.


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BirdofPrey

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #134 on: 19 August 2019, 04:58:46 »
I think you have that backwards.  I'm not talking about converting small arms to do damage to mechs; I'm talking about large weapons doing damage to squishy unarmored meatbags.  Fired against a vehicular unit or BA, large weapons do damage per TW rules, but fired against infantry, anything with an AI tag or mounted to a Battlearmor has individual AP/BD values, but these are lacking for everything not in TW/TM/BMM

What are the AP/BD values of a ER Small Pulse Laser mounted to a mech and what values if a battlearmor is carrying one (stuff like Small Pulse lasers have different values for the mech and BA versions)?  What about a BA mounted ER Medium Pulse Laser (the mech mounted one just multiplies the damage, but BA stuff has actual values), or a BA specific item like the BA LB-X AC.


Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #135 on: 19 August 2019, 05:20:36 »
I think you have that backwards.  I'm not talking about converting small arms to do damage to mechs; I'm talking about large weapons doing damage to squishy unarmored meatbags.

Are you hit? Then you die. You're talking about calculating damage from being hit with a tank shell. In an RPG, Mechs and combat scale weapons should be rare unless the PC also has similar equipment. If you don't at least have Battlearmour, then if you see a Mech you avoid it just as you would avoid an M1 - and the Mech should have the same restrictions in firing on infantry and small groups as a tank - they aren't going to use a main gun in their own depot, but they will call it in and expect infantry to go and get you.

Meanwhile...your plan to take out the Mech? Your small arms will bounce. But fortunately you have a support MG. Unfortunately, it too will bounce. You pick up a support scale laser...great. It bounces. The you pick up the infantry portable missile. Great - its effective but all you do is chip the paint.

TPTB have always tried to allow for conversions between the different scales of combat. That's why in TM you have nonsense such as damage values for bow and arrows.

What they should do - IMO - is simple and straightforward.
Small arms vs infantry
Support weapons vs Support Vehicles
Mech scale weapons vs Mechs

And if you want them to hit the row above, you give a weapon an AntiArmour feature, such as Anti-Armour (x) where it does x points of damage.
And if you want it to hit the scale below - or rather vs infantry because we already have Mech vs Support rules. Or, if you do want a degree of survivability, you simply equate a Mech scale weapon with an existing alternative and say it is simply firing in anti-infantry mode - it fires slower, uses less ammo, is more accurate.

Bulky complex conversion rules are not needed - at most, just a simple rule stating that the anti-infantry/low power mode of the weapon in question is treated as X.

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BirdofPrey

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #136 on: 19 August 2019, 05:54:48 »
You're still not reading what I am saying.  Not once did I mention anything about firing infantry weapons against mechs, and I specifically mentioned mech weapons with the AI (anti infantry tag).

A regular mech weapon fired at a person absolutely turns them into a paste (the example given was a ML doing 10E/30 damage, for reference a clan Elemental has a maximum possible HP of 18 if you max the BOD stat), but something like a small pulse laser doesn't work the same way.  Being an anti-infantry weapon, something like a Small Pulse Laser fires a LOT of shots that may or may not be fatal, so has stats not unlike an infantry weapon.  We're not talking about being shot by the main cannon of an Abrams, we're talking about the commander pointing his machine gun at you. It's not bad, unusual or complicated.  The problem is that stuff like the ER Small Pulse Laser which shows up in TO rather than TW/TM/BMM which does the same thing doesn't have a stat block for AToW.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #137 on: 19 August 2019, 06:40:42 »
You're still not reading what I am saying.  Not once did I mention anything about firing infantry weapons against mechs, and I specifically mentioned mech weapons with the AI (anti infantry tag).

And I answered - the infantry gets vapourised. Not damaged...just dead. Your are talkign about a weapon that, even as a small pulse laser, can destroy modern day tank.
Infantry isn't going to stand a chance. If you want to posit the existence of a low power anti infantry mode, then simply equate it with a suitable small arm or support scale weapons for which stats already exist.

No complex conversion needed. Just, at worst, a table listing the equivalent small/support scale weaponry.

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Paul

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #138 on: 19 August 2019, 09:18:54 »
No, BOP is right. There are a number of AI weapons that need conversion rules/stats.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Maelwys

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #139 on: 19 August 2019, 10:22:09 »
One thing that is needed as well is an updated gear list to move it into Dark Ages. Not everything made it from ATOW to IO.

Also not everything from the Handbooks (Kurita, I'm looking at you!) made it into IO as well.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #140 on: 19 August 2019, 11:47:11 »
No, BOP is right. There are a number of AI weapons that need conversion rules/stats.

And which approach do you prefer....?

Mech scale Machine Gun deals 2D6 damage to infantry...all hit die.
Mech scale Machine Gun acts as a support machine gun when fired in an anti infantry mode

He's looking for AP/BD values for weapons which a...don't have them and b...don't need them. If his Elemental gets hit by his small pulse laser...the Elemental dies because Mech scale weaponry should not be survivable.

If you want to mode the AI mode as something that is survivable, again conversion mechanics are not needed. Just equate it with an existing weapon system and use the stats for that. 

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Robroy

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #141 on: 19 August 2019, 11:57:02 »
And which approach do you prefer....?

Mech scale Machine Gun deals 2D6 damage to infantry...all hit die.
Mech scale Machine Gun acts as a support machine gun when fired in an anti infantry mode

He's looking for AP/BD values for weapons which a...don't have them and b...don't need them. If his Elemental gets hit by his small pulse laser...the Elemental dies because Mech scale weaponry should not be survivable.

If you want to mode the AI mode as something that is survivable, again conversion mechanics are not needed. Just equate it with an existing weapon system and use the stats for that.

Actually, no. For TW PBI are considered dead, but in one of the other books, I think SO, they might be wounded just no longer combat effective. Yes that is campaign play, but my point is mech scale AI weapons are not always instant death.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

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Paul

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #142 on: 19 August 2019, 12:14:41 »
He's looking for AP/BD values for weapons which a...don't have them and b...don't need them. If his Elemental gets hit by his small pulse laser...the Elemental dies because Mech scale weaponry should not be survivable.

You're going to need to review the suppression fire rules to see why stats are needed for weapons that don't have them yet. This isn't about what happens when 1 person gets hit, but about a weapon's ability to affect many people. There's no way to determine that in ATOW without stats.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #143 on: 19 August 2019, 12:27:59 »
Actually, no. For TW PBI are considered dead, but in one of the other books, I think SO, they might be wounded just no longer combat effective. Yes that is campaign play, but my point is mech scale AI weapons are not always instant death.

In which case, you model them after existing weaponry - the SPL becomes equivalent to support MG.
There is little need to bother with complicated conversions where so many points of damage cause so much damage to vehicles and so much to people. If a GM wants to send his players up against Mech scale weaponry, he need to give them Mechs
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Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #144 on: 19 August 2019, 12:31:05 »
You're going to need to review the suppression fire rules to see why stats are needed for weapons that don't have them yet. This isn't about what happens when 1 person gets hit, but about a weapon's ability to affect many people. There's no way to determine that in ATOW without stats.

Intimidation Skill check
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Paul

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #145 on: 19 August 2019, 13:31:53 »
Intimidation Skill check

You're rather missing the point. Please review the Suppression Fire rules, p. 174-175.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #146 on: 19 August 2019, 15:41:05 »
You're rather missing the point. Please review the Suppression Fire rules, p. 174-175.

No...I don't think I did. The main point of such an "attack" isn't to cause damage but to intimidate the opponents into keeping their heads down. Any damage or hit or injury is beside the point. Or usually so. A successful suppression fire attack is one where the target does keep his head down and doesn't fire back.

But yes - you mean the Suppression fire rules as listed in the ATOW rulebook. Which isn't so much for Suppression Fire but is a simple unaimed attack made across mutliple hexes. Spray n Pray.

At which point we can see the next section - splash damage - for an idea on how to handle an area of effect attack. Which is what this is. Most game normally do so by attacking all characters wihtin a certain area or radius.

The point I am trying to make is that combat resolution in ATOW is made unnecessarily complex through attempting various rules at conversion between weapons scales rather than accept the fact that this should be an RPG. An awful lot of the combat rules and complexity could be avoided simply by embracing the in universe "small arms don't damage Mechs" rather than try to shoehorn in rules to let them do that. Your suggestion here about Suppression Fire is an example...it is an area of affect attack and the rules already cover that. If you want a more specific term, then we could call it strafing but it still doesn't require special one off rules. "Suppression Fire" is an unaimed attack that attacks a specific target and targets within a specific radius....said radius in the case of suppression fire being a straight line rather than a surrounding area.


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Paul

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #147 on: 19 August 2019, 16:22:13 »
Most game

Irrelevant. I showed you why stats are needed if you want to use printed rules.
Your basis of questioning the need for why stats are needed is apparently based on your own preferences and house rules on how to resolve it. That's great, but that doesn't mean that the people who want stats are wrong.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

BirdofPrey

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #148 on: 19 August 2019, 17:29:45 »
Unless you're suggesting everyone in the target area is automatically hit every time, you're not really simplifying anything anyway.  You still have to figure out who got hit.
In which case, you model them after existing weaponry - the SPL becomes equivalent to support MG.
There is little need to bother with complicated conversions where so many points of damage cause so much damage to vehicles and so much to people. If a GM wants to send his players up against Mech scale weaponry, he need to give them Mechs
There's already a stat block for all of those; it's not like there's some complicated conversions you have to do every single time.  My comment was that the existing stat block has some omissions.
Also my comments include Battlerarmor weapons which are effectively treated as very large support weapons: large enough to somewhat threaten mechs, but still small enough squishy humans aren't turned into a fine mist.

What you seem to be suggesting isn't simplification, it's limitations.  "mechs and people fighting each other is always going to be pointless so don't even bother with rules for it", but I'd argue the RPG would be much worse off for that.  The plucky infantry squad mobbing a mech to death is a powerful visual that gets used most of the time infantry show up around mechs, and what you keep suggesting doesn't even change much.  Small arms really don't do much to bother vehicular units. Also, and I must reiterate this again; I wasn't even discussing it, because there weren't any ommissions.

On the flip side, saying, well I should just have everyone in a mech or nobody in a mech needlessly hamstrings the story.  Gone is the mission that went awry and now the PCs have to figure out how to avoid the mech on patrol, and saying, if the mech on patrol sees you, you just die replaces all the dramatic tension with annoyance over "bullshit mechanics" because nobody likes rocks fall everybody dies.

Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #149 on: 19 August 2019, 17:54:37 »
What you seem to be suggesting isn't simplification, it's limitations.  "mechs and people fighting each other is always going to be pointless so don't even bother with rules for it"

And I'll say again -what are the rules for when someone is hit with an 120mm APFSDS shell? Because when you are talking about infantry vs mechs, that is what you are talking about.

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Gone is the mission that went awry and now the PCs have to figure out how to avoid the mech on patrol, and saying, if the mech on patrol sees you, you just die replaces all the dramatic tension with annoyance over "bullshit mechanics" because nobody likes rocks fall everybody dies.

And I keep hating to bring it up, but again...the analogy of an infantry unit vs a tank does seems appropriate. There isn't much that infantry unit can do to defeat the tank...in a straight up battle, but that doesn't mean nothing can be done. In this instance...are there places where your infantry unit can hide and do they have a satchel charge?

There are ways to make infantry relevant without relying on complex and unnecessary conversion systems
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