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Off Topic and Technical Support => Off Topic => Topic started by: ActionButler on 19 December 2019, 13:14:53

Title: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ActionButler on 19 December 2019, 13:14:53
**MOD NOTICE**

With the impending release of Rise of Skywalker, the moderation staff has decided to open a new general discussion thread for all things Star Wars.

Let's make something clear up front: The moderators are deeply disappointed and highly aggravated at how these threads have a tendency to turn into dumpster fires full of toxic comments, baiting, and culture wars nonsense.  That needs to stop.  We're not in the mood for more petty bickering, toxic commentary, threadcrapping, and the various other negative behaviors that have made these threads so unpleasant.

We understand this is a beloved franchise; some of us share in that passion!  But that means people care, and it means people are more emotional about the subject.  Think about what you're saying.  Pause before you slam something.  Just because you don't like a creative decision doesn't mean it's necessarily objectively bad, nor does it mean people who enjoy it are bad, and it certainly doesn't give you any license whatsoever to complain about it incessantly and derail the thread.

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Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 December 2019, 14:12:29
OK, I guess I'll go first.

Wrapping up the entire Skywalker saga in under two and a half hours was going to be a damn near impossible task, but The Rise of Skywalker manages to tick most of the boxes. Best movie of the sequel trilogy by far. Not as good as Rogue One, but then again only Empire is.

I'll give it 7.5 out of 10.

Proceed at your own risk.
By no means perfect, we do get Rey's origin, Snoke's origin, and why Luke never trained Leia as a Jedi (turns out he did) Ian McDiarmid completely rocks every scene he's in, and Wedge gets about a second and a half of screen time.

A few quibbles: Though it's been established in Empire that Luke's X-Wing suffers no ill effects from being submerged for extended periods, the door on his hut was supposed to be made from one of it's wings. Whoopsie!

Ben finding a working TIE in the Death Star wreckage, and a hyperspace equipped one to boot (though that close to the Throne Room, it could be a Royal Gaurd special variant.

Lastly, the end of the war with the First Order was resolved way to quickly. Though I did like the wrecked Star Destroyer on Jakku from the final battle of the last war about to be joined by another from the end of the current war.


I'm going to give it another viewing sometime after Christmas.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 December 2019, 14:31:07
One more gripe: The Knights of Ren have officialy joined Boba Fett and Captain Phasma in the We look really cool but don't really do anything club.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 20 December 2019, 14:35:33
I can understand some gripes about the movie, but overall was very satisfied. Rather than discuss the one subject for which I’ve read the most gripes (which would likely lead to a warning and threadlock), I will simple end with this gripe:


They killed SNAP?!?!?!?


Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 20 December 2019, 15:19:15
One more gripe: The Knights of Ren have officialy joined Boba Fett and Captain Phasma in the We look really cool but don't really do anything club.


So it's "We, the Knights who say Ren (but not much else)!"?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 20 December 2019, 15:22:42
My only complaint:

No Wilhelm scream that I can remember.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 December 2019, 15:54:49
I don't recall Episode VII or Solo having it either.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 20 December 2019, 16:48:32
My thoughts:

1. 10:15 AM showings keep crowds at bay thus making it a very enjoyable experience.

2. Fairly predictable plot but as noted it was pretty good.  Without a doubt better than the previous movie that shall not be named.  I'd peg it about the same level as Return of the Jedi.

3. I do agree that I think to set up future movies they could have left a few things on the table.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 20 December 2019, 17:49:02
So, just saw Episode 9

So..was it a bad film? No
Was it a good Star Wars film?
No.
But not if you compare it to the original trilogy. it was probably the best of this trilogy and about as good as Episode 3

It was a very good sequence of events and set peices. Thrown in with a maguffin hunt.
Visually, and audially it was spectacular, the set peices were generally well done.
But it felt like a 2 and a half hour long trailer more than a film. There was very little heart in it, little in the way of interconnecting tissue, just maguffin leads to set piece which leads to maguffin which leads to setpiece.

And there's plot holes you could fit a bloody deathstar into.

All of which will no doubt be solved in the book.

Its better than Episode 8, but so's getting kicked in the head by a horse so that's not exactly a high bar to beat. But its MUCH better than episode 8 and despite going straight for the jugular with nostalgia its still...lacking something. Its just..good. Its not great, its not a steaming pile that makes you want to howl about a ruined childhood etc. Its just...adequate.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Charlie 6 on 20 December 2019, 17:53:58
My wife and I hit the 0730 at the local Alamo Drafthouse.  The place was nearly empty.  I enjoyed it and it might even help give its predecessors a bit more firm ground to rest.  I look forward to seeing it again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 December 2019, 20:59:09
How were the space battles, compared to Rogue One's Battle of Scarif or the strike on Jyn Erso's father's base?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Death Monkey on 20 December 2019, 22:02:28
How were the space battles, compared to Rogue One's Battle of Scarif or the strike on Jyn Erso's father's base?

The final battle is massive, but it is shot so frenetically that it’s hard to keep track of the geography or scale of the combat.

And as a spoiler did anyone find it the Final Order commander says something to the effect of, “those aren’t military ships, they a just people “ when the fleet includes multiple MC75 and MC85 Mon Cal star cruisers, multiples of the two canon Nebulon frigates and dozens of other warship types? Yeah, there might have been some civilians there, but it seems like a fair amount of what must have been New Republic fleet remnants.

OK, I guess I'll go first.

Wrapping up the entire Skywalker saga in under two and a half hours was going to be a damn near impossible task, but The Rise of Skywalker manages to tick most of the boxes. Best movie of the sequel trilogy by far. Not as good as Rogue One, but then again only Empire is.

I'll give it 7.5 out of 10.

Proceed at your own risk.

Ben finding a working TIE in the Death Star wreckage, and a hyperspace equipped one to boot (though that close to the Throne Room, it could be a Royal Gaurd special variant.

Lastly, the end of the war with the First Order was resolved way to quickly. Though I did like the wrecked Star Destroyer on Jakku from the final battle of the last war about to be joined by another from the end of the current war.


I'm going to give it another viewing sometime after Christmas.

The Star Wars nerd part of me did immediately notice the hyperspace standard TIE.

I think you can justify the quick death of the First Order due to them being a paper tiger.  They decapitated the New Republic and destroyed the majority of their fleet during the destruction of the Hosnian system. Quickly after that, they seems to have rushed Star Destroyers to take orbital control over key systems and thereby appear to have seized the galaxy.  Most beings might not have known exactly how thinly spread their forces might have been. Once the “fire gets lit”, as the hero’s like to say, it might not have taken a lot to remove them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Kentares on 20 December 2019, 22:30:10
Just got from the movie... for me its on the same level of TFA... close but no cigar and much better than the not named one.

Loved John Williams cameo. It was the bartender on Kimji (sp?)

My only complaint:

No Wilhelm scream that I can remember.

I think the first jump trooper shot in Paasana (sp?) does that.

And as a spoiler did anyone find it the Final Order commander says something to the effect of, "those aren’t military ships, they a just people “ when the fleet includes multiple MC75 and MC85 Mon Cal star cruisers, multiples of the two canon Nebulon frigates and dozens of other warship types? Yeah, there might have been some civilians there, but it seems like a fair amount of what must have been New Republic fleet remnants.

He says "those aren’t navy ships, they are just people". I think hes just downgrading their importance... not truly meaning useless civilian ships.

Going to sleep now... pondering on my words about the film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CapricornNoble on 20 December 2019, 22:58:56

The Star Wars nerd part of me did immediately notice the hyperspace standard TIE.

I think you can justify the quick death of the First Order due to them being a paper tiger. 


How does a "paper tiger" have the industrial base to build and operate Starkiller Base?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Death Monkey on 20 December 2019, 23:18:13
How does a "paper tiger" have the industrial base to build and operate Starkiller Base?

Jedi:Fallen Order hints that a great deal of the construction of Starkiller base might have been done by the Empire. And of course, after The Force Awakens, they’ve lost all the resources dumped into that project. General Pryde makes mention of it being a mistake in the new movie. The resources used to construct it weren’t used for fleet production. So you end up with having a small number of very capable battle cruisers instead a vast fleet of star destroyers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 December 2019, 00:42:30
How does a "paper tiger" have the industrial base to build and operate Starkiller Base?
If you focus your entire national industrial base and brain trust on something, even a small fourth-tier power can develop its own superweapons.  Oh look there's Rule 4, so at the risk of bouncing off it like the X-wings off the Scarif shield, I'll say no more on that besides "they probably blew everything they had into the one Starkiller Base and decided to ignore the rest of the fleet or anything unrelated to that specific project.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Deadborder on 21 December 2019, 01:15:12
Saw today with friends and family (including the family member who first introduced me to Star Wars over fourty years ago). We all had a great time and immensely enjoyed ourselves.

I enjoyed it a lot more than I enjoyed any of the prequel trilogy (low bar, I know) and I'd certainly put it in my top tier of Star Wars films. Not as good as TLJ on a technical viewpoint, but really fun and enjoyable no less. I got the ending I expected, even if it wasn't how I expected it to go. Left the cinema tearing up more then a little.

I have to say now though that Daisy and Adam's chemistry is amazing. There's an intensity to their shared scenes that you just do not get anywhere else in Star Wars.

My only real disappointment is the lack of shirtless Kylo Ren.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Triptych on 21 December 2019, 02:40:48
OK, I just watched it. I wasn't particularly interested since the last two movies in this trilogy were bad, but my son wanted to see it so off we went.

I gotta say I'm somewhat surprised that it was better than I had expected. Not a great movie, but slightly above average, imo.

First of all, Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter made more sense, since she was fully loaded and all since the beginning, but it still doesnt explain how she was so familiar with the Millennium Falcon. Nice to see Lando again too.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 21 December 2019, 10:45:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLsSgS-v14Y

Relevant to everyone's interests, and its not a spoiler as 'ol Palps is in the trailers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Darth Nichos on 21 December 2019, 13:22:11
I basically think this was JJ adaptation of Dark Empire; with the space battle i never got to see. My question is though is what happens now galaxy wise? Do we get another New Republic and does the remaining First Order slink back into the unknown regions?

It wasn't bad; if anything, it mirrors the prequel trilogy in terms of how each one fared in my opinion
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 21 December 2019, 17:02:32
First of all, Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter made more sense, since she was fully loaded and all since the beginning, but it still doesnt explain how she was so familiar with the Millennium Falcon. Nice to see Lando again too.

That's something that never made sense to me in TFA either...  Still hasn't.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 December 2019, 18:04:09
To be fair, had Luke Skywalker ever been at the controls of anything better than a hovercar before they threw him in an X-wing at the end?  I mean, even on the way to Alderaan he's flipping out over flashing lights in the Falcon.  And suddenly he's in a Tomcat equivalent?  I guess ships are just all built around the same idea, like cars - outside of fine details you can just hop in one and go. 

Guess that means the best starship security is a stick shift.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 21 December 2019, 18:25:11
That's something that never made sense to me in TFA either...  Still hasn't.

It was explained in the novels and other books prior to the movie. One of the items she salvaged and refitted and used many times from the downed ships was a flight simulator training system. It contained instructions for flying many starships from fighters to tramp freighters.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Death Monkey on 21 December 2019, 19:59:42
To be fair, had Luke Skywalker ever been at the controls of anything better than a hovercar before they threw him in an X-wing at the end?

Well, he use to bullseye whomp rats in his T-16 back home...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 21 December 2019, 20:07:51
Well, he use to bullseye whomp rats in his T-16 back home...

Which is still a clear indication that the Force cheats and lets people do stuff with it without formal training.  At least to me.  But that is probably as close to the special forum rules as I should push the conversation.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 December 2019, 20:26:55
but it still doesnt explain how she was so familiar with the Millennium Falcon.

While the Falcon hadn't flown in years, she'd been working on it for years. A lot of it unfortunately making Unkar Plutt's questionable modifications.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 21 December 2019, 20:29:18
Well as luck would have it, my bro took me in place of my father to see Star Wars in 3D.

My rating is 6.5 out 10. Impressive scenes and graphics, story seem flow better than previous one.


Well, I went in without seeing many spoilers to this thing. So i didn't expect it to be art piece.  I felt they did good work-a-around to remedy the problem of drastic passing Carrie Fisher.  I felt they really over did the nostalgia angle again to get them through the movie.  Rey & Ben's storyline was pretty much strength of the film, which relied heavily on cameos and winks and nods from the past make it a Star Wars movie.  I personally blame J J Abrams, since in beginning of trilogy he said he didn't think people want watch a totally new new story, it needed infusion of stuff from the past.  I disagree.  However, this is what we have now. I'm minority on my feelings of this. 

This a list of stuff that bothered me about it.
*1) Rey's healing ability - At the get go they started show casing Rey's new found ability to heal.  Film repetitively seems that flashing it through entire film, this all-new ability no Jedi has had before.  I'm not against that bit, that was kind of bothersome keep poking people with.
*2) Emperor's relation - Grand Child?  The guy was old when Return of the Jedi came out, the two parents were like totally 30s. He either very spry in his old age taken woman have child with her or they totally fudged that Rey would need be Great Grand Child to be realistic about who he is.
*3) Emperor still alive - Ok, someone must had a net at bottom of the pit Vader threw him down.  He was missing fingers and stuff and must had seem to be almost a mechanical zombie, but he certainly wasn't a clone like the writers were dropped a hints about midway through the film. I do believe the rumor Clone mentioning was nod to the old comics where better encounter of Emperor clone showed up. To be able to managed to to squirreled the Emperor off the station before it's destruction was impressive planning for Emperor's shadow Sith workforce. I doubt Emperor would been a Clone since i believe a clone would have been younger and perhaps more healthier than man we found on the Sith homeworld.
*4) Miniature Super Lasers on Wicked Old Star Destroyers - So the Sith Shadow Work force squirreled away tons of antique Star Destroyers and managed to shoe horn hyper miniaturized super laser, where the First Order's Dreadnoughts had only big bombardment guns.  Huh?  Why did the Sith had to hide a lot super technology from everyone, why bother with Death Star if they had those things.  I was under the impression the Star Killer was best they First Order could do. SD+Mini-Super Laser are superior to both weapons hands down.  I didn't expect the Super Laser that small to exist prior to the Death Stars being made, but afterwards i did expect it would be possible for it to exist. The sheer power it tge weapon could produce.  It's kind brakes allot of balance issues premise a planet killer weapon could do. New Hope famously mentions it would have taken the IMPERIAL FLEET to destroy a planet. The weapon power source alone would fatal issue to work. Thus ur huge moonsize stations and sun flare power sources used to make such weapons.
*5) Ben Solo's ability of Force teleporting - So that powerful ability or was it joint power with Rey?  So weird. Very broken.
*6) Broken Up Relationships  - Well, it's minor thing. But i was confused on inter-personal relationships going on. Ben+Rey thing was sort been hinted, but frankly that was disappointing way wrappped up subplot  what turns out to be Starcrossed Lovers sort ending.  Thing with Finn was confusing too.  He meets Rose, he wants tell Rey something, never does, He meets former Storm trooper lady (on Endor? Wreck of the Death Star couldn't have been blown through galactic space...right?) who seem have chemistry with him. (sister? possible love interest? Billy Dee/Lando's lost daughter?)  I think something must have been left on the editor's cutting floor given it seem to have been broken up bit.
*7) End of Endings - So Sith gone, since now we find out Sith need die like Highlander to transfer into the next person to carry (Evil version of the Autobot's Matrix of leadership?) spirits/knowledge of the Sith with them. Vader must been spared when he thew Emperor down the pit.  Rey has Jedi in her too.  Now galaxy sith free, just has rebuild in mist of no galactic government.  Likely a lot in-fighting, but this Disney owned, so it won't that bad (maybe).


Sorry if that sounds snarky to the film, i did not like how the Trilogy was handled story wise at all.  I was less 10 years old when i first saw this film in theater in 1977.  To end like this well, it hurts bit.  its not what i envisioned what nine-film saga was suppose to be like.  It was disappointing, the Legacy version done by Dark Horse comics built it's canon on fiction written since novels start coming out, frankly i though it was better what we ended up with.  This felt like rushed story arch.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Triptych on 22 December 2019, 04:53:20
Well as luck would have it, my bro took me in place of my father to see Star Wars in 3D.

My rating is 6.5 out 10. Impressive scenes and graphics, story seem flow better than previous one.

That's close to my rating, which is 5.5/10. What really bothered me more than a storyline was the director. The scenes that involve sacrifice and heroism are so flat and devoid of any intensity, they sort of become meh and unemotional. JJ Abrams should never be allowed to touch a Star Wars movie again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 22 December 2019, 06:11:27
Summary: 80% Dark Empire (Rey is Luke in that story), tribute scenes to Ep III and VI and some scenes leaving me feeling like this is KOTOR: The Movie i.e. Rey doing things like Dark Side Bastila from KOTOR.

This movie is better than VII and VIII but it's just my opinion. Storytelling is incoherent at many junctures.
Rose seems like JJ Abrams doesn't know what to do with Rian Johnson's character.
Hux and Snoke seem to be disposable characters.
Finn gets no relationship development with his new friend?
Rebels still have no fleet, 2 corvettes and something like 2 squadrons of fighters that aren't even homogeneous for the series grand finale.
Most puzzling of all, they never bothered to explain how Palpatine survived disintegration down a bottomless shaft. His statements seem like they used the Dark Empire version of soul-surfing through new bodies to reincarnate.
The Sith people seem to have survived the millennia just to die here after chanting like Mordor Orcs at the siege of Minas Tirith.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: RunandFindOut on 22 December 2019, 10:50:48
I knew I probably wouldn't like it as I hadn't like the last two but had to see it.  If for no other reason than just to see what Disney was ending Star Wars with.  I thought 7 and 8 weren't good either but this one was the worst.  It felt like a bad ripoff of the Dark Empire comics done by somebody that was checking off boxes on things to include.  I don't generally like anything JJ Abrams produces so I'm not surprised, he's too in love with his own hype and his pointless mysteries.  It didn't feel like Star Wars to me, it felt like a poor imitation of Star Wars done by people with no investment in the setting guided by corporate panel "include this element" bits scattered throughout.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 22 December 2019, 12:50:23
I absolutely loved it. It had heroes, villains, big space battles, dramatic music, Star Destroyers...everything I ask of a Star Wars movie, in spades. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 22 December 2019, 13:27:52
Quick review


RoS is worth seeing
It is the best of the Sequel trilogy by far
It is not perfect - there are a good few Deus Ex Machina moments, too much reliance on the Force as magic plot device,  the ending doesn't have enough tension, and it shows just how bad TFA and TLJ really were. What this could have been if they had sat down and actually done something such as PLAN THE TRIOLGY OUT
There are answers...sometimes answers which could be more fleshed out, but still answers are provided.
Boyega and Driver are still good in their roles. Ridley has finally...FINALLY...shown some degree of improvement as an actress with this movie. Too little, too late but take what you can get. It's her best performance to date. She is still being carried by the others but I still think she was the wrong choice to play Rey. She doesn't have the skill or presence needed to anchor the film as the lead character. Not yet anyway.

Yes - it is worth seeing

Could it be better? Yes - but to be fair, Rian Johnsons did so much damage that one film could never fix things. It could have used more runtime to flesh stuff out, but there was so much stuff that needed to be done another film of the same or higher quality was needed to do it justice.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Empyrus on 22 December 2019, 15:14:59
Bah, we went to this crap from the greatness of The Last Jedi?

The good stuff: Well directed, well acted, visually impressive, Ian McDiarmid is awesome.

The bad stuff: Throws away nearly all developments from The Last Jedi, largely a rehash of ROTJ and even TFA, stupid-macguffin fetch quest plot. Bad story. Too long for what happens in it. Plot holes and WTF stuff. Pointless reveals. Deus ex machina. Unsatisfying, predictable, boring ending.
Basically removing Rose from the story is bad. Poor utilization of new and returning old characters (Jannah, Lando, and yes, Palpatine) is bad.


I do prefer this to old expanded universe though. At least this is a film, plus Rogue One and Solo are good films (even if the latter's unnecessary largely), and The Mandalorian is excellent.
If only they didn't waste so much interesting stuff to comics (like Kylo Ren's backstory).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CapricornNoble on 22 December 2019, 16:41:28
Thankfully Pitch Meetings was quick to drop a vid and savage the plotholes in his distinctive style (spoiler-heavy YT vid): https://youtu.be/b2zZFtq13c4

How is Palpatine *STAFFING* his immense fleet of Star Destroyers?

There was a cam'd clip of the final battle on YT. I couldn't even make it through half of it before wanting to throw my coffee at my monitor. Palps looks like a cyborg version of The Doctor from Hellraiser 2: (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9saaK9X158/Vs18t0QKU-I/AAAAAAAAAUQ/g1clQYg8ig8/s400/dr_channard.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Dies Irae on 22 December 2019, 19:02:10
Kairennosuke and the Three Shining Swords (https://youtu.be/735WWLau__Q)

AKA. What happens when Ichikawa Ebizo, one of Japan's most famous Kabuki actors (and huge Star Wars nerd), arm twists Disney into allowing the production of a condensed Kabuki play of Episodes 7 and 8 in late Nov (probably because he wanted to play Kylo). The video was made publicly available. Now with English subtitles.

Actual show starts at 12:14 (https://youtu.be/735WWLau__Q?t=734)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Luciora on 22 December 2019, 19:15:14
R2 totally seems bored there.   ;D

Kairennosuke and the Three Shining Swords (https://youtu.be/735WWLau__Q)

AKA. What happens when Ichikawa Ebizo, one of Japan's most famous Kabuki actors (and huge Star Wars nerd), arm twists Disney into allowing the production of a condensed Kabuki play of Episodes 7 and 8 in late Nov (probably because he wanted to play Kylo). The video was made publicly available. Now with English subtitles.

Actual show starts at 12:14 (https://youtu.be/735WWLau__Q?t=734)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 December 2019, 21:52:29
Box office figures for the weekend are in.  175.5 million.  "The “Skywalker” opening, which theater owners had hoped would debut north of $200 million, is 29% below the 2015 installment “The Force Awakens” and 20% below “The Last Jedi” from 2017."  Quoted from Cinemablend, so it's hard numbers; the BIG question will the second- and third-weekend drops.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ogra_Chief on 22 December 2019, 22:27:43
Box office figures for the weekend are in.  175.5 million.  "The “Skywalker” opening, which theater owners had hoped would debut north of $200 million, is 29% below the 2015 installment “The Force Awakens” and 20% below “The Last Jedi” from 2017."  Quoted from Cinemablend, so it's hard numbers; the BIG question will the second- and third-weekend drops.

I'm waiting till after Christmas to go watch, I suspect many in the American market are likely waiting as well, since Christmas falls during the middle of the week. So this initial weekend may be skewed. But, as predicted Asia, reads the Chinese market, couldn't even be bothered to turn its' collective nose at the new installment and chose Ip Man 4 (likely I would have joined them if given the choice) instead. The franchises' failure to register with the Chinese market will have ramifications for the franchise moving forward. Big budget Star Wars may be a thing of the past.

However, looks like the majority of the reviews from a cinematic perspective are positive. Since, I mainly go to the movies for the spectacle anyway, I am looking forward to the experience. Being that I have long since read all the leaks and have known the plot synopsis for a month. Any initial nostalgia shocks and plot holes will be easily glazed over with "MASSIVE SPECIAL EFFECTS."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 December 2019, 22:38:11
Well, we can at least confirm people who didn't go see Star Wars weren't going to see Cats instead...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Dubble_g on 23 December 2019, 00:29:34
Well, it's over but of course it isn't. We'll be getting Star Wars until the heat death of the universe and if nothing else, this movie helped me make peace with that.

While TLJ had a lot to say (perhaps too much), I found tRoS had little it wanted to express other than "Wheee!" and sometimes "Remember this?" It's all a bit frenetic and lightspeed cuts between scenes, and none of it stands up to a single "Why?" but you know what, I'm okay with that. It's okay if the main Star Wars movies become vehicles for cosy nostalgia. We've gotten so much more Star Wars than I ever thought we would 30 years ago, in so many different media and formats and styles, I don't need them to do any more. It was just nice to see the gang, especially Carrie, one last time before the end.

Full and spoilery thoughts: https://one-way-mirror.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-rise-of-skywalker.html
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 23 December 2019, 02:05:42
Well, we can at least confirm people who didn't go see Star Wars weren't going to see Cats instead...

Couldn't really care to see Cats either..
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 23 December 2019, 02:09:48
How is Palpatine *STAFFING* his immense fleet of Star Destroyers?

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I do like the theory Team Four Star humorously offered during their review.

Snoke clones. Just... so many Snokes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 23 December 2019, 02:11:45
And there's plot holes you could fit a bloody deathstar into.

This, just so THIS.

My friend insisted we go on opening night so the theater was packed.

So I had to mostly stay quiet when all I really wanted to be doing was shouting at the screen every time something improbable that doesn't fit with any known SW history happened.


But aside from the HUGE plot holes EVERYWHERE..... My biggest complaints are the stuff I was really hoping to see that wasn't there.


More Evil Rey
More Reinforcements Fleet
More Wedge
More Ghost

I was probably expecting too much based on the previews.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 23 December 2019, 02:40:51
The bad stuff: Throws away nearly all developments from The Last Jedi

Just my opinion, but I consider that a very good thing. Much of what Rian Johnson did was pitiful. Had it been a standlone film, it miugth ahve worked. Had it not been part of a franchoise with established rules of how the universe works, then it might have worked. But it was not a standalone film, it was the middle film of a trilogy and it was part of a franchise which alraedy had established rules which was two strikes. The third was a pitifully poor script and story. Hamill was great...Fisher was great...Driver and Boyega had certainly improved over their TFA appearances. But I woudl p[ersonally rnak TLJ as the worst film of the nonology.

Quote
Basically removing Rose from the story is bad.

Case in point - Rose was shoehorned into act as Finns love interest, and she didn't work.

But yeah - if you did like TLJ, RoS probably ditches a lot of what you like.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Triptych on 23 December 2019, 04:50:14
Lando (he ought to change his name to Friendo) Calrissian is probably the greatest politician ever- he was able to persuade every single starship in the galaxy to join him for a suicide attack to a hidden Sith planet in less than 20 minutes.  ::)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 December 2019, 04:52:21
The first third was really out there to me. The middle part was better. The last part was great but a little bit of overload. The Space battle was good for the few seconds we saw it. I wish there would of been so much more of that and not as much of overload. So many many many ships. I liked the fight on the Death Star but wasn't great becuase Ray kicked Kylos butt multiple times and it reminded me of the Obi-Wan and Anikin fight just with water over lava.


If Wedge was in the movie....where???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 23 December 2019, 09:21:32
The first third was really out there to me. The middle part was better. The last part was great but a little bit of overload. The Space battle was good for the few seconds we saw it. I wish there would of been so much more of that and not as much of overload. So many many many ships. I liked the fight on the Death Star but wasn't great becuase Ray kicked Kylos butt multiple times and it reminded me of the Obi-Wan and Anikin fight just with water over lava.


If Wedge was in the movie....where???

Wedge was a turret gunner in the Falcon. I’ll assume his wife had the other turret.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 December 2019, 10:57:13
Wedge was a turret gunner in the Falcon. I’ll assume his wife had the other turret.

Ruger

Couldnt give him a X-Wing to fly....sure he would of been old but come on. He also had a assist of  2 death stars kills
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 23 December 2019, 11:53:24
Couldnt give him a X-Wing to fly....sure he would of been old but come on. He also had a assist of  2 death stars kills

The novel, Resistance Reborn, had him and his wife Norra Wexley traveling in a shuttle to try and find/rescue other resistance sympathizers at the end.

Their son (her natural; his adopted), Temmin “Snap” Wexley, was featured prominently in both “The Force Awakens” and “The Rise of Skywalker”, as well as several novels (including as a just-below main character in the Aftermath series) and the new comics, as a Resistance X-Wing pilot at least up to the moment he is shot from behind and crashes into one of the newly risen Star Destroyers in tRoS.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CapricornNoble on 23 December 2019, 13:49:27
The novel, Resistance Reborn, had him and his wife Norra Wexley traveling in a shuttle to try and find/rescue other resistance sympathizers at the end.

Their son (her natural; his adopted)

A fighter jock, and one of the most famous war heroes in the galaxy, wifed up a single mom? GTFO.....who writes this stuff?!?!?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: jimdigris on 23 December 2019, 14:36:41
Am I the only one who got motion sickness watching this movie?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 23 December 2019, 16:13:34
A fighter jock, and one of the most famous war heroes in the galaxy, wifed up a single mom? GTFO.....who writes this stuff?!?!?

The damage from the torture he suffered at the hands of the Empire (when he was captured by them after Endor), as well as his age (mid-50’s or so?) mean that his reflexes aren’t what they used to be.

Norra was a starfighter pilot at Endor (she flew a Y-Wing as Gold 9 and was one of those to fly into the Death Star with Wedge and Lando), and was part of the team that rescued him from captivity. She also helped defeat the Empire’s leaders at the Battle of Jakku at the cost of her husband.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 23 December 2019, 16:36:01
Lando (he ought to change his name to Friendo) Calrissian is probably the greatest politician ever- he was able to persuade every single starship in the galaxy to join him for a suicide attack to a hidden Sith planet in less than 20 minutes.  ::)

Maybe he just played them all in Sabbac, and the losers had to join his suicide run?

The damage from the torture he suffered at the hands of the Empire (when he was captured by them after Endor), as well as his age (mid-50’s or so?) mean that his reflexes aren’t what they used to be.

Come again??  Was that yet another 'disney ret-con', that wedge got captured after destroying the 2nd deathstar??
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 23 December 2019, 16:42:38
Come again??  Was that yet another 'disney ret-con', that wedge got captured after destroying the 2nd deathstar??

He was on a recon mission for the New Republic to the planet Akiva where Imperial forces were gathering prior to the Battle of Jakku. He was captured by these forces.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: RunandFindOut on 23 December 2019, 17:53:14
So another retcon, which like all their retcons seems to only show up in peripheral materials they want you to buy to understand all the things they left out of the Movies that don't make sense without them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 23 December 2019, 18:22:09
So another retcon, which like all their retcons seems to only show up in peripheral materials they want you to buy to understand all the things they left out of the Movies that don't make sense without them.

*response redacted due to likelihood of threadlock due to thread drift and pointless debate*

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Kentares on 23 December 2019, 19:38:56
So another retcon, which like all their retcons seems to only show up in peripheral materials they want you to buy to understand all the things they left out of the Movies that don't make sense without them.

Not only retcons but also stuff that happens concurrently in the movies. The first cut of ROTS had 20 more minutes than the final cut (JJ said it in the Late Show or GMA - cant remember which one) and there are rumours that at one point they asked George Lucas to make his version which would make the movie almost 3 hours long... lets see if this is confirmed in the future.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: RunandFindOut on 23 December 2019, 19:41:14
Yeah lets not derail.  I think I'll just leave it that I am distinctly underwhelmed by this movie as I have been with the other two sequel movies.  And I don't believe I'll be bothering to give any more of my money to the Star Wars franchise as a result.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ogra_Chief on 23 December 2019, 20:05:48
So another retcon, which like all their retcons seems to only show up in peripheral materials they want you to buy to understand all the things they left out of the Movies that don't make sense without them.

Well in defense, plotholes requiring further explanation (retcons), it is a tried and true method of merchandising and marketing, pioneered by the Star Wars franchise, no less.  What is surprising, is how aggressive or lazily Disney has done so with the recent trilogy. There are too many to be happenstance, and yet so poorly executed to be excused or tolerated for an established IP; and thus must be intentional for tie-ins, e.g. books, comics, shows, etc. one would think? Conversely, some mystery should be expected, something not new to Star Wars, and makes for better storytelling than straight exposition, but there are limits for good storytelling. IMO. I believe Disney simply underestimated the task before them. The blanked out everything preceding (40 years of material), consigning Legends to the shelves prematurely.

What Disney needed to do was keep Legends, slowly role in their retcons over the next decade, using the movies too slowly introduce their main plot/universe anchor points. Once they had 'enough' of their own material, then soft reboot, peeling away the portions the didn't want, but leaving enough material so it was a seamless transition. Then they could always hard reboot, for new stories. Instead they hard rebooted first, and now what fans know is faulty or wrong info leading to confusion and raised eyebrows. With the proverbial... "Wait, what happened? That's not what I remember?" Which contributes to the disjointed nature of the movies.

So long as fans are willing to read about Wedge's new story or dig to find out what happened to Leia before the Rise of Skywalker, Disney is good, but Disney may have started counting revenue and patting themselves on the back a little too prematurely. There may be a lot of Star Wars retcons in the near future given the 'looseness' of the current story-line. Something now required, as opposed to nice filler material.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 23 December 2019, 20:16:55
When Disney deleted EU, they said they wanted a clean slate to start from. Since then, it's just a matter of plagiarizing whatever they want from EU(and Eps I-VI) and hope their hordes of new kid fans don't realize it.

In addition to Dark Empire, RoS might as well also be KOTOR:The Movie.

At least there's still Mandalorian. I can always go back to watching R1 to console myself. It proves that if they let people who know their Star Wars stuff run things (like Favreau, Filoni, Edwards and their lore teams), they can make excellent material.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ogra_Chief on 23 December 2019, 20:30:19
When Disney deleted EU, they said they wanted a clean slate to start from. Since then, it's just a matter of plagiarizing whatever they want from EU(and Eps I-VI) and hope their hordes of new kid fans don't realize it.

In addition to Dark Empire, RoS might as well also be KOTOR:The Movie.

*snip*

That was, "The Plan." However...

"No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength"
-Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

Enter the Fandom Menace. *Duel of the Fates* begins to play ominously in the background. It's a joke, no one lose their coffee, please.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 24 December 2019, 02:16:56
Fine, if this is a duel, i challenge you to wet carps, 5 paces. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 24 December 2019, 16:47:47
Saw it because a friend had an extra ticket, and I was curious as to how bad it was going to be.

Visuals - fantastic, if a bit frenetic.
Music - inspiring as always
Acting - solid, given what there was to work with
Pacing - slkkhsd;ghj;trio8hgh !!!
Script - honestly this feels like a first draft that never went through fact checking or rewrites. Bad, bad, bad.

Honestly, not as terrible as I was expecting, but not very good either. I was struggling to CARE about the people and situations on screen, but I couldn't be bothered.

3 out of 10. I'll likely never watch this film again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Empyrus on 24 December 2019, 18:13:46
Just my opinion, but I consider that a very good thing. Much of what Rian Johnson did was pitiful. Had it been a standlone film, it miugth ahve worked. Had it not been part of a franchoise with established rules of how the universe works, then it might have worked. But it was not a standalone film, it was the middle film of a trilogy and it was part of a franchise which alraedy had established rules which was two strikes. The third was a pitifully poor script and story. Hamill was great...Fisher was great...Driver and Boyega had certainly improved over their TFA appearances. But I woudl p[ersonally rnak TLJ as the worst film of the nonology.
Established rules? Nah. If anything TROS throws away those, in addition to doing an character assassination (Palps has been established as a masterful planner, patient, smart, and extremely skilled with both the Force and lightsaber combat, yet nothing of that appears in TROS, only the (awesome) large ham.
Case in point - Rose was shoehorned into act as Finns love interest, and she didn't work.
While i grant that TLJ could've been made work without Rose, i think she improved things ultimately. With Rose, the main characters got split neatly into 3 duos. Luke-Rey, Leia-Poe, Rose-Finn, all playing off each other, all learning from someone else. Rose being love interest is incidental, and i'm not sure i'd even call her that, i chalk up most to hero worship (waxing and waning sort) that could develop into either direction (since i figure Finn and Poe were way more interested in each other).

TROS makes a major mistake of throwing away a main character, of which TLJ had 6. For contrast, though Lando is important in ESB, he was not a main character yet got a big and important role in ROTJ anyhow. Hell, Rose has lesser role in TROS than Lando, who has pretty minor and bad role all in all. Utterly stupid.


As i've thought of TROS more, i've decided it is the worst Star Wars film. Yes, worse than prequels, which suffer from bad execution but not bad premise ("life, rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker").
TFA's a bit lame in its retreading of already done stuff but given the time from previous films (IRL), it is acceptable as reintroduction, not to mention that TLJ took things to a bit different direction. But TROS has bad execution and poor premise. A bad ending, leaves a bad taste in mouth.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 December 2019, 19:14:29
If it had been broken up into two films, or perhaps a TV miniseries, would it have been a better film?  The biggest gripe Iv'e seen, and a universal one at that, is the frenetic pacing.  If it had more time to breathe, and wasn't such a fast paced thing, would it be more enjoyable?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 24 December 2019, 19:15:22
The reviews I've read seem to indicate the pacing is a secondary concern to the plot holes...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 24 December 2019, 21:18:32
If it had been broken up into two films, or perhaps a TV miniseries, would it have been a better film?  The biggest gripe Iv'e seen, and a universal one at that, is the frenetic pacing.  If it had more time to breathe, and wasn't such a fast paced thing, would it be more enjoyable?

Maybe.  But they knew it was going to hurt no matter what, so figured it was better to rip off that bandaid quickly rather than draw it out over several years.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 24 December 2019, 21:26:50
That was, "The Plan." However...

"No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength"
-Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

Enter the Fandom Menace. *Duel of the Fates* begins to play ominously in the background. It's a joke, no one lose their coffee, please.

 Good point ;D

I'm perfectly fine with Dave Filoni or others reinventing the wheel such as Thrawn, Death Troopers/Dark Troopers, the different origins for the Rebel starfighters etc. They're done nicely.

The sequel trilogy just does it in such a way to make you think you're going through the motions. The more "original" elements such as primitive WWII style heavy bombers in TLJ when they could just mass produce B-Wings and many others, in addition to pacing and script, range from terrible to so-so.

My opinion is that the whole series could just end with ROTJ and the EU up till Legacy and the series wouldn't have missed anything from the sequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 24 December 2019, 22:34:57
Television format is best for science fiction and story telling.  Large films to me are big event moments, while television series has time to tell day-to-day story.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Dr. Banzai on 24 December 2019, 23:54:47
 :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CapricornNoble on 25 December 2019, 04:11:50
About half of those complaints are actual critiques that the fans have had about RoTJ for decades, and why it's considered the weakest of the OT.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 25 December 2019, 04:43:10
About half of those complaints are actual critiques that the fans have had about RoTJ for decades, and why it's considered the weakest of the OT.

Yep, but that's inconvenient for people to recall, generally trashes the point they are trying to make.

However, as this isn't about RoS and it could be considered thread derailment, maybe we should drop this line of discussion?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Triptych on 25 December 2019, 11:23:58
Did Chewie get Han's medal at the end, or did they make another medal specifically for him? And how come he didnt get a medal in Ep IV?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 26 December 2019, 02:23:11
When Disney deleted EU, they said they wanted a clean slate to start from. Since then, it's just a matter of plagiarizing whatever they want from EU(and Eps I-VI) and hope their hordes of new kid fans don't realize it.

They didn't want to HAVE To be constrained by 50+ Novels / Sourcebooks of EU, not that they couldn't still use some of it.

I wasn't happy about that decision, but I totally GET that decision.   

Can you imagine the fact checking alone to make sure someone didn't contradict something mentioned in a game rulebook 20 years ago or a Novel from nearly 30 years ago.

I'm happy with what they have pulled from EU (Thrawn) and certainly don't mind loosing some of the stuff about EU  (Solos were a powerful Jedi family?  Really)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 26 December 2019, 05:14:15
Understood.

I'm much more excited about Mandalorian anyway.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 27 December 2019, 04:54:10
While i grant that TLJ could've been made work without Rose, i think she improved things ultimately. With Rose, the main characters got split neatly into 3 duos. Luke-Rey, Leia-Poe, Rose-Finn, all playing off each other, all learning from someone else.

What Rose might have been is irrelevant. She ended up doing nothing, and meaning nothing.

Quote
TROS makes a major mistake of throwing away a main character, of which TLJ had 6. For contrast, though Lando is important in ESB, he was not a main character yet got a big and important role in ROTJ anyhow. Hell, Rose has lesser role in TROS than Lando, who has pretty minor and bad role all in all. Utterly stupid.

What was stupid was giving her any screen time whatsoever. Irrespective of why, her role in TLJ was a non starter and detrimental in so many ways. Yes, most of that was die to the awful, awful script which placed her in a pointless filler arc but with that start, Rose was lucky to make any sort of appearance in ROS.

ROS isn't perfect but one of its flaws is that it tried to do too much. There simply wasn't room to add in Rose and develop the character in a meaningful way.  The time for that was TLJ and RJ blew that.


Quote
As i've thought of TROS more, i've decided it is the worst Star Wars film. Yes, worse than prequels, which suffer from bad execution but not bad premise ("life, rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker").

And I'd disagree. Worst ever SW movie would have to go to TLJ. Awful script, awful story, a full third given over to filler, another third to an awful nonsensical chase scene and the only saving grace about the final third was Hamills stellar performance despite the drivel he was given to work with. I can acknowledge that RJ took risks and accept that risk taking can have value, even in a franchise, just as I can acknowledge that in TLJs case doing so failed spectacularly.

RoS has its own share of goofs - Light skipping should be as impossible as the Holdo maneuver, Poes back story didn't need to be retconned, Palpatine should have had some background, etc - but the performances were much improved, even Ridley, the script was tighter and the core story much more coherent.

It SHOULD indeed have expanded more on so many elements but that was more of a problem with not sitting down and planning out the trilogy in the first place. But TFA spent too much time retreading ANH and TLJ was a near total disaster.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Sabelkatten on 27 December 2019, 05:33:28
Personally, Finn and Rose are the only characters I've cared about...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 27 December 2019, 09:32:04
It SHOULD indeed have expanded more on si many elements but that was more of a problem with not sitting down and planning out the trilogy in the first place. But TFA spent too mich time retreading ANH and TLJ was a near total disaster.

While I don't really agree with the other points, the lack of a developed plan was a decided drawback to the trilogy!

While an overly detailed plan can leave a series feeling clinical and perfunctory, it was clear that there was no plan what so ever for these movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 27 December 2019, 11:05:59
Does anyone know of lists/images of the various Rebel ships in the big fleet? I saw the Ghost and at least a couple Profundity-types, but was hard to spot much else.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 27 December 2019, 15:43:04
Personally, Finn and Rose are the only characters I've cared about...

Finn, yes.  Rose i couldn't care less about myself..

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 27 December 2019, 15:58:21
Supposedly someone pitch a Disney+ series staring Rose.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 27 December 2019, 16:24:32
Supposedly someone pitch a Disney+ series staring Rose.

Honestly that not surprising to me, with Disney+ I fully expect that any character from their products would be getting pitched a series about.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 27 December 2019, 23:17:42
Understood.

I'm much more excited about Mandalorian anyway.

Just got access & started watching it.

Love it so far, only 2 episodes in.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 27 December 2019, 23:29:54
One of the big complaints about RoSky is the rush of the film, but really, the entire trilogy has felt VERY rushed to me.

4-5-6 covered 4 years.

1-2-3 covered 13 years.

7-8-9 feels like it was bout 6 months to a year of total time at most.

None of the "new" cast are huge stars IMHO and I think many of them would do well in TV roles, which takes me to the point that I feel a "Resistance" live action series (Not that Animated Prequel thing) would have been worthy of watching to fill in a lot of the holes, flesh out many of the characters, & take the key players forward post RoSky.

Sure, I'm not seeing Harrison Ford do something like that, but most any of the other characters, I think it could have been a good show.

They could have a Pre-TFA season, a between 8-9 season, etc etc.

Anyway, just a thought I had after the Rose Show comments above.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 28 December 2019, 07:59:00
Episodes VII and VIII are virtually the latter right after the other (with only enough time to get their ships there and to have a brief funeral for Han).

Episode IX is about a year or so after episode VIII from what I understand.

And many/most of those involved in the original trilogy weren’t big names at the time either.

Easy to forget that after some 42 years.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 28 December 2019, 11:40:23
While I don't really agree with the other points, the lack of a developed plan was a decided drawback to the trilogy!

While an overly detailed plan can leave a series feeling clinical and perfunctory, it was clear that there was no plan what so ever for these movies.

There was no plan for the original trilogy either.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 28 December 2019, 14:38:07
There was no plan for the original trilogy either.

No - but you didn't see see TESB ignore much of what happened in ANH either.
And with Lucas involved, there was someone there with a single vision of where to go.

TFA was problematic in that it was competent...but average and left too many questioned unanswered. What should have come across as plot hooks for the next story came across as plot holes. All it would have needed was a few extra scenes or lines where Rey used the Force, showing her as talented but untrained. Never mind it was almost a beat for beat reshoot of ANH.

TLJ was problematic in that it ignored or actively dismissed much of what TFA setup. Then it compounded that error by dismissing some of the existing rules of the universe. The Holdo manuever, for example, might have looked great but it was a move that simply should not work in universe. It also made the bad guys look stupid and part of any competently told story is to try and hide the idiot stick. Add in the poor script, the nonsensical chase scene, the ability to track through hyperspace that was both new, previously impossible and yet used in ANH and TFA and TESB and elsewhere, the Canto Bight filler arc, the ridiculous mutiny and the fact Poe Dameron was a traitor who single handled wiped out the Resistance and there is much to dislike. I liked that RJ treid to introduce some grey into the universe, I liked DJ and his message, and I think Hamill did much to redeem the film. I think both Driver and Boyega showed huge improvement over their TFA roles. But overall, I think this film is easily the worst in the entire nonology. I appreciate not everyone feels that way but as I said, a few good moments doesn't make up for the Canto Bight scenes, doesn't make up for the Hoth rethread, doesn't make up for that silly chase sequence. And while both Driver and Boyega showed improvement, Isaac and Ridley  - not so much. Course, it's kinda difficult to tell with Isaac as he didn't have much to do in TFA but Ridley was problematic because she was the central figure of the entire trilogy. She improved a bit for RoS but that isn't relevant for TLJ.

TLJ - I kept getting the feeling that there was entire subplots cut out. Poes unreasonable distrust of Holdo makes much more sense if there had been a traitor storyline. That the fleet was being tracked because of the traitor. That they couldn't jump because the traitor was simply hyperwvae the new lcoation. That Poe saw Holdo as the traitor. Isnetda they went with the lthe "Lets forget hyperspace tracking has been used before and then jump to the conclusion that the First Order found the fleet because it is now able to do what is now imposisble but isn't."

RoS had issues with its own set of impossibilities. Light speed skipping, another instance of the Holdo manuever, "retconning" Poes backstory, the sudden emergence of Palpatine and more. There is plenty to nit pick. And yet, the script is still tighter and more coherent and while it isn't perfect, it does an adequate job of picking up the threads left by TFA and TLJ and trying to weave them into a coherent whole. It could easily have been better...and yet, IMO, it is still, by far, the best of the sequel trilogy. There is plenty of stuff in RoS that needed further development - including Lando and his daughter - but there wasn't really time.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 28 December 2019, 14:43:43
Lando's waitwhat?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 28 December 2019, 15:32:07
What Weirdo said... WHAT? ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 28 December 2019, 15:40:51
Pacing has absolutely nothing to do with how many years are between each movie and absolutely everything to do with the flow of events and plot beats within the experienced narrative.

In that sense, Rise of Skywalker is similar to The Force Awakens because JJ Abrams is apparently against the entire idea of the next thing happening in a few minutes instead of breathlessly one after another.

The only part of this movie I thought really nailed the pacing was Rey traversing the ruined death star and the lightsaber fight that followed.  The rest of it was a sprint from one twist or conversation to another with nothing in between.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 28 December 2019, 16:49:21
TFA was problematic in that it was competent...but average and left too many questioned unanswered. What should have come across as plot hooks for the next story came across as plot holes. All it would have needed was a few extra scenes or lines where Rey used the Force, showing her as talented but untrained. Never mind it was almost a beat for beat reshoot of ANH.

I do wish, even in the novelization, they'd have explained HOW it was, Rey, was just so quick at picking up using the force, when it seemed NOTHING in her backround, indicated she was force sensitive..  The other plot hook/hole, i'd have liked to seen explained, was exactly why when Leia re-formed a rebellion (of sorts), we never heard of/saw the older characters, heroes OF THE resistance (such as lando, acbar, wedge etc), TILL they brought them in, in TROS.. (except for ackbar who was somewhat of an afterthought, and barely had any screen time till they killed him off in TLJ).

TLJ was problematic in that it ignored or actively dismissed much of what TFA setup. Then it compounded that error by dismissing some of the existing rules of the universe. The Holdo manuever, for example, might have looked great but it was a move that simply should not work in universe. It also made the bad guys look stupid and part of any competently told story is to try and hide the idiot stick

True..  Everything we saw of hyperspace, PRIOR TO of course Rogue one, showed one Did NOT DO IT in an atmpshpere, or close to one, due to the risk of dying..  Then we got TWO instances of a ship jumping to hyperspace (one in TFA and one in rogue one), and then the holdo maneuver..

the ridiculous mutiny and the fact Poe Dameron was a traitor who single handled wiped out the Resistance and there is much to dislike.

As a military brat, AND someone who served, he should have had a LOT MORE than merely a demotion, happened to him for that stunt with the bombers...  Then his mutiny, should have seen him permanently stripped of rank...  The fact, he's still leading in Ep 9, shows just how buggered up the writers are, in not even THINKING of proper military rules/structure etc..
ADD to that, his revealing TOP SECRET data, over a unsecured commline to Finn, with that hacker listening in), and that alone, should have been grounds for a charge of treason.  ESPECIALLY Since THAT IS WHAT led to 2/3rds of the drop ships getting destroyed..

TLJ - I kept getting the feeling that there waas entire subplots cut out. Poes unreasonable distrust of Holdo makes much more sense if there had been a traitor storyline. That the fleet was being tracked because of the traitor.

I also think that chase stuff, would have been better, had there been a traitor in the midst of the fleet, one who actually DISABLED the hyperdrive (or better yet, destroyed it), rather than the maguffin of "they can track us"..
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 28 December 2019, 16:55:54
Lando's waitwhat?

There is an unconfirmed fan theory that the other defector stormtrooper that Finn met is Lando's daughter.

Personally I don't think that is true but can't rule it out either.

All I'll say about other incidents of hyperspace tracking is that everything I can think of can be attributed to beacons or there being doubt about the ship actually being in hyperspace at the time of being tracked.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 28 December 2019, 16:59:04
Mutiny is a straight out the airlock offense...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 28 December 2019, 17:40:34
They could of handled the no-hyperspace thing with an interdiction cruiser.  The appearance of gravity well generators on screen would have gone down well with everyone, I think.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 28 December 2019, 17:43:50
No - but you didn't see see TESB ignore much of what happened in ANH either.
And with Lucas involved, there was someone there with a single vision of where to go.

Here's the thing:  JJ Abrams was an Executive Producer on Last Jedi and had script approval.  If he didn't like what Rian Johnson had written, he could have changed things. Granted, he wasn't tapped to take over Rise of the Skywalker until after last Jedi wrapped, but if he felt the storytelling choices in it were bad, he was in a position to change them before they hit the screen.  He chose not to.  There were a lot of people above Rian Johnson who could have pumped the brakes on him at any time and chose not to.


As a military brat, AND someone who served, he should have had a LOT MORE than merely a demotion, happened to him for that stunt with the bombers...  Then his mutiny, should have seen him permanently stripped of rank...  The fact, he's still leading in Ep 9, shows just how buggered up the writers are, in not even THINKING of proper military rules/structure etc..

This is the same movie series that gave a pair of criminals the rank of General for no discernible reason except "they helped us out".  You might be barking up the wrong tree looking for any level of military realism here.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 28 December 2019, 17:47:02
Mutiny is a straight out the airlock offense ESPECIALLY among criminals.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 28 December 2019, 18:01:39
Mutiny is a straight out the airlock offense ESPECIALLY among criminals.

Star Wars also happens to be family entertainment.  You might be barking up the wrong tree looking for people to be killed in particularly gruesome manners,
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 28 December 2019, 18:21:17
So was Guardians of the Galaxy, and they showed that...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 28 December 2019, 18:26:54
There is an unconfirmed fan theory that the other defector stormtrooper that Finn met is Lando's daughter.

Personally I don't think that is true but can't rule it out either.

Not quite

Part of Landos backstory is that he tried to settle down after the death of the Emperor. He ended up having a child.
The First Order deliberately targetted the families of ex Rebellion heroes and his home was raided and his daughter kidnapped.
Which is why he has been wandering around the past twenty or so years.

The fan theory is that Jannah is his daughter....and is a theory which obviously crossed his mind at the end when he talked to her. But without the backstory, there is nothing to give context to that exchange so while you KNOW it is significant simply because of how it was shot, you don't know why.

Quote
All I'll say about other incidents of hyperspace tracking is that everything I can think of can be attributed to beacons or there being doubt about the ship actually being in hyperspace at the time of being tracked.

Regardless of the mechanism, being tracked through hyperspace is nothing new in the SW universe. It happens several times in the movies alone. The characters in the new sequel, however, describe it as "impossible". A Traitor hyperwaving the fleet location to the First order, the presence of an Interdictor cruiser, sabotage or breakdown of the hyperdrive, a beacon on one of the ships, would all have achieved the same same end of requiring a chase sequence without the flubbery of "hyperspace tracking".
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 28 December 2019, 18:33:11
So was Guardians of the Galaxy, and they showed that...

They also had the people being spaced survive.  Unless you're suggesting Poe's punishment should have been getting a little bit spaced?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 28 December 2019, 18:49:26
Two out of how many survived being spaced?  And no, he should have absolutely been executed on the spot.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 28 December 2019, 18:52:05
Here's the thing:  JJ Abrams was an Executive Producer on Last Jedi and had script approval.  If he didn't like what Rian Johnson had written, he could have changed things.

I'm going to need a source on this here Lorcan.

The only reference I can find to JJ being EP is on Wookipedia, Lucasfilm website and IMDB list only KK as Producer. No source I've see suggests JJ had script approval.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 28 December 2019, 19:30:09
I'm going to need a source on this here Lorcan.

The only reference I can find to JJ being EP is on Wookipedia, Lucasfilm website and IMDB list only KK as Producer. No source I've see suggests JJ had script approval.

JJ Abrams is listed as Executive producer on IMDB.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 28 December 2019, 22:26:45
Two out of how many survived being spaced?  And no, he should have absolutely been executed on the spot.

I suspect that CT is talking about in the first Guardians, where everyone who ends up in hard vacuum with no headgear survives.

Which is ultimately secondary to the fact that the only people who could have decided to space Poe (Holdo and Leia) decided not to.  Junior officers don't get to just decide to summarily execute someone in custody, regardless of offense.

Which is all tertiary to the fact that this conversation has nothing to do with Rise of Skywalker, which I think we should fix.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 28 December 2019, 23:21:32
I just watched a Graham Norton episode 12 of his 26th season who had Daisy on the show.  Part conversation including asking if Daisy was going to play the part Rey again. She responded that it was it for her character.   I guess they're really going dump all these characters or they not letting the actress/actors know if they got role play in years ahead?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 28 December 2019, 23:25:00
JJ Abrams is listed as Executive producer on IMDB.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

Heh, fair enough.

However I've still not seen anything that states he had control of the script, not a given. The EP is mostly about production of the movie, not the content. That's the domain of the Screenwriter and Director.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 28 December 2019, 23:30:29
I do get the impression that scripts are given at most cursory skims looking for overly objectionable content or to ensure certain ratings but are otherwise rubber stamped.

At least most re-writes and re-shoots I am aware of do tend to happen well after a movie is underway, not before.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 28 December 2019, 23:43:39
I just watched a Graham Norton episode 12 of his 26th season who had Daisy on the show.  Part conversation including asking if Daisy was going to play the part Rey again. She responded that it was it for her character.   I guess they're really going dump all these characters or they not letting the actress/actors know if they got role play in years ahead?

Not surprising really, most of the actors in Star Wars only get one run at being the character. I don't think you can call it dumping, not every franchise is the MCU.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 28 December 2019, 23:58:02
It does seem 3 movies is all you can reasonably expect with more being possible.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ogra_Chief on 29 December 2019, 00:18:51
So, I finally went to see SW:RoS; given I had already read the plot outline a month ago, and watched every Youtube spoiler vid in the last few days. I was well prepared for the ending of the Saga. As mindless fun, without the 'baggage,' RoS is standard Hollywood fare, not much else, but worth the Holiday ticket. Frenetic, messy, shallow, confusing, but fun; would be my opinion as a standalone film. As the ending of a 42 year journey, no. I'll leave at that. So, I'm a firm, no. Recorded here for posterity.

However, I did surprisingly like the the whole (Reylo) Rey and Kylo dynamic more than I thought I would, and really would liked to have seen that story as the center piece of a trilogy. A wayward Skywalker/Palpatine on opposite ends of the eternal struggle as star-crossed lovers ala Space Romeo and Juliet, may have been a missed opportunity by Disney. Preferably culminating in a child (or children) who's choices may very well decide the fate of a Galaxy. I'm thinking that story-line makes some money, and sets up a whole new generation to explore. Unfortunately, not to be.

Finally, just because no one else seems to have mentioned it. Rey is a Princess (or Empress). That is right, Rey is, "Princess Rey Skywalker (-Palpatine)." Sadly, I will not be sticking around to see how that turns out. Star Wars ended with Return of the Jedi for me.

   
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 29 December 2019, 07:38:11
Just got access & started watching it.

Love it so far, only 2 episodes in.

It's safe to say the vast majority of SW fans will love it. With the conclusion of Season 1, it proves Jon Favreau has brought balance to the Force.

The many references to the movies and EU, and other non-SW movies are done in an elegant way IMHO, unlike a lot of things in the sequel trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 29 December 2019, 07:43:17
True..  Everything we saw of hyperspace, PRIOR TO of course Rogue one, showed one Did NOT DO IT in an atmpshpere, or close to one, due to the risk of dying..  Then we got TWO instances of a ship jumping to hyperspace (one in TFA and one in rogue one), and then the holdo maneuver..

I don't understand this either. I thought hyperspace had to be done in clear space without any gravitic interference, hence the creation of gravity well generators and Interdictor Cruisers to stifle hyperspace raiders.

Though he died in TLJ, I feel Admiral Ackbar was dishonored by the sequel trilogy. Legends Ackbar had by this point so many achievements and was a literal living legend but Disney-Ackbar got a desk job in TFA and appeared in TLJ to die like an afterthought leaving his son to pick up the torch in RoS.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 29 December 2019, 08:59:19
I don't think the franchise´s technical side of it was really respected or Followed. Even since Rogue one things were breaking down. They were only going what they thought the story needed like hyperspace communication on a small tiny ship. Interdictor used in Last movie should have been sign that's how the physics work for Skywalker film. Another sign is when Rey was flying ancient X-Wing Fighter without even a Droid to help navigate. The Falcon skipping through hyperspace in atmosphere of a planet for sake of keeping audience entertained. Writers should have followed how Star Wars physics worked. It's just was very sloppy lie babe if you went by then Technologies and the other things.

EDIT : Sorry for numerous typos and grammar errors. I was dictating to my phone. Frankly i'm embarrassed by way it came out.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 29 December 2019, 09:15:35
I do get the impression that scripts are given at most cursory skims looking for overly objectionable content or to ensure certain ratings but are otherwise rubber stamped.

At least most re-writes and re-shoots I am aware of do tend to happen well after a movie is underway, not before.

Pretty much.  What happens with a lot of blockbusters is that they lock in the big action setpieces early on, the live-action elements for those are filmed, and the effects teams get to work.  This can be a very fraught time as the editors and director will possibly be dithering about which elements of their footage to include - and only so much effects work can be done without them. Other elements might change extensively, but the big moments are so expensive that only minor changes can be made there once effects work has gotten beyond a certain point.

A big part of what did in Suicide Squad was that they did extensive rewrites and reshoots, but needed to keep in the expensive, finished action footage leading to levels of incoherence, where plotlines are either dropped with no notice or the resolution doesn't quite line up with the setup.

Ultimately the issue is with the size of the budget for these movies.  Rise of the Skywalker has a listed budget of $275 million, and conventional wisdom is that it needs to make triple that to be considered a success by the studio.  At a hypothetical $15 per ticket, that means they need to get fifty-five million people to go see the movie in the cinema.  It means they tend to run risk-averse and try and please everyone.  Which clearly doesn't always work, but if you're gambling a ton of money on making a successful movie then you might not want to risk it on allowing a small number of people to follow their artistic sensibilities.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Skyth on 29 December 2019, 09:16:50
Flying an x-wing without a droid to navigate has never been an issue for a force user.  In ESB, Luke flies to Dagobah without R2's help.  He tells R2 that he'd keep it on manual.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 29 December 2019, 10:09:30
Flying an x-wing without a droid to navigate has never been an issue for a force user.  In ESB, Luke flies to Dagobah without R2's help.  He tells R2 that he'd keep it on manual.

There's a massive difference between keeping it on manual and flying without an astromech unit. Any pilot can keep their ship on manual navigation, it's the equivalent of flying an aircraft without autopilot. Flying without an astromech unit is equivalent to flying without a fly by wire computer, comms bank and aviation computer. Apples and oranges there.

The larger ships had stations to deal with it, hence why Han could pilot the Falcon with just a co-pilot, fighters don't have that luxury. Piloting a fighter without an astromech isn't just flying solo, it's flying without control of half your ship.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 29 December 2019, 10:28:07
There's a massive difference between keeping it on manual and flying without an astromech unit. Any pilot can keep their ship on manual navigation, it's the equivalent of flying an aircraft without autopilot. Flying without an astromech unit is equivalent to flying without a fly by wire computer, comms bank and aviation computer. Apples and oranges there.

The larger ships had stations to deal with it, hence why Han could pilot the Falcon with just a co-pilot, fighters don't have that luxury. Piloting a fighter without an astromech isn't just flying solo, it's flying without control of half your ship.

Force navigation through hyperspace has LONG been a part of the EU, and as part of Legends, the first hyperspace explorers had no astromech droids to help navigate and create the first hyperlanes. They did it all by luck or, for those fortunate that could tap into it, the Force.

That’s at least 35 years of (Legends) EU there.

Edit: it’s just something else that Disney has drawn in from the Legends stuff.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 29 December 2019, 15:42:04
It's safe to say the vast majority of SW fans will love it.

Is it?  So far, from my 2 SW sites, two of my 3 adnd sites, and 1 other site i go to (besides here) where we're discucssing the film, i see roughly a 35-40% disliked it, 10-15% felt it was, just ok.  and 40-45% felt it was good..  Certainly doesn't seem anywhere close to a 'vast majority'..

I don't understand this either. I thought hyperspace had to be done in clear space without any gravitic interference, hence the creation of gravity well generators and Interdictor Cruisers to stifle hyperspace raiders.

Which is most of the gripes many have had about these new disney made films.  THEY Totally ignore prior film canon, to just tell "THEIR story"..

Though he died in TLJ, I feel Admiral Ackbar was dishonored by the sequel trilogy. Legends Ackbar had by this point so many achievements and was a literal living legend but Disney-Ackbar got a desk job in TFA and appeared in TLJ to die like an afterthought leaving his son to pick up the torch in RoS.

All (IMO) cause he was probably an after-thought...

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Cache on 29 December 2019, 16:06:06
Jedi Voices towards the end included Ashoka Tano (and both Obi Wan actors). Guess she died some time after Rebels.

Did Chewie get Han's medal at the end, or did they make another medal specifically for him? And how come he didnt get a medal in Ep IV?
I doubt they just made a medal for him in that short amount of time. I assume it was Han's.  He didn't get one in IV because he was just written as a sidekick back then. It was fanservice to give him one now (because it's been a fan gripe for decades), and I'm not complaining.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 29 December 2019, 16:52:05
Is it?  So far, from my 2 SW sites, two of my 3 adnd sites, and 1 other site i go to (besides here) where we're discucssing the film, i see roughly a 35-40% disliked it, 10-15% felt it was, just ok.  and 40-45% felt it was good..  Certainly doesn't seem anywhere close to a 'vast majority'..



The vast majority of star wars fans don't post about it online
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2019, 16:53:44
So... mind reading on both sides?  ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 29 December 2019, 17:28:41
So... mind reading on both sides?  ???

The best metric for audience reaction is the Cinemascore rating, which was a B+ for Rise of the Skywalker, while Force Awakens and Last Jedi both got As, and the prequel trilogy each got got an A-.  Other audience reaction surveys also gave the movie positive marks, but again not as high as the prior two movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2019, 17:35:38
Isn't the Cinemascore rating based on a self-selected base too?  ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 29 December 2019, 17:48:43
Isn't the Cinemascore rating based on a self-selected base too?  ???

They have operations in 25 cities across the US, and for any given film five are selected to survey, where audiences on the opening day are given survey cards to fill out. They generally get 400 responses per movie.  It's not exactly full rigour, but it's a hell of a lot more reliable than the Rotten Tomatoes audience reviews.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2019, 17:56:14
"Better than Rotten Tomatoes" isn't exactly rigorous by any definition.  I think "mind reading" is still an accurate description.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Sartris on 29 December 2019, 17:58:17
Until people stop going to the movies I doubt any metric is going to speak louder than cash.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 29 December 2019, 18:02:40
Until people stop going to the movies I doubt any metric is going to speak louder than cash.

If there were refunds of ticket price if you don't like it, maybe (assuming fully altruistic viewers though).  Lots could pay to see it and think it's complete garbage  after the fact - ticket is still sold.  Or a good movie could get unjustly bad mouthed early and not earn as much.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Sartris on 29 December 2019, 18:06:37
Disney seems rather insulated from any of that. Stock dips due to shrinking profit margins will get their attention. The rest is useless noise made by dorks like us on the internet
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 29 December 2019, 18:46:49
That's sad part of all this.  Disney won't care, as long as the Film's performance will likely keep pace with it's cost and exceed it.  Corporately, they won't care how quality of the franchise is.  As long they get their returns on their investment.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 29 December 2019, 18:52:05
I'm willing to bet I'm one of the people here who actually votes with their wallet - I haven't paid to see a Star Wars movie since Phantom Menace.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2019, 18:56:32
That makes at least two of us... I gave up after Episode VII.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Tymers Realm on 29 December 2019, 19:18:21
I'm actually seeing TLJ for the first time tonight.
TNT is airing it tonight...

I felt TFA was a good Star Wars Film, but it didn't deserve the hype around it when it hit the theaters. I've herd enough of TLJ and I'm not entirely looking to watch it, but I figure I might as well...

As to TRoS...?  I'll have to see...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2019, 19:19:45
I gave TFA a chance after skipping II and III... Rogue One was great, but TFA put me off the franchise again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 29 December 2019, 20:20:58
Jedi Voices towards the end included Ashoka Tano (and both Obi Wan actors). Guess she died some time after Rebels.

Well, let’s see. She was about 14 when introed shortly after the Clone Wars began in 22 BBY, and about 17 at their end in 19 BBY.

That would put her in her early 30’s during Rebels (started 15 BBY, ended about a year before BBY).

Add another 5 years from the end of Rebels to RotJ, so she’s nearing 40.

TFA is 30 years later, so she’d be around 70 if she were alive. Not sure we know the typical life expectancy of a Togruta.

And nothing says that all those Jedi chiming in had to be dead just because most were.


Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 30 December 2019, 02:32:25
I'm willing to bet I'm one of the people here who actually votes with their wallet - I haven't paid to see a Star Wars movie since Phantom Menace.
In the theater, i didn't see TLJ, nor will i see RoS.  On dvd, i rented TLJ the first day it hit redbox..
I'll probably do the same with RoS.

Oh and on another note..  one of my adnd sites, someone who's wife is a die hard SW comic/game fan mentioned that
"Gee, it seemed palpaltine was on a secret hidden sith world out in the middle of no-where, with a mass of ships around him.
Sounds strangely like the Star-Forge artifact, which according to comic legends, was able to MAKE ships via the force...."

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Deadborder on 30 December 2019, 03:10:16
The best metric for audience reaction is the Cinemascore rating, which was a B+ for Rise of the Skywalker, while Force Awakens and Last Jedi both got As, and the prequel trilogy each got got an A-.  Other audience reaction surveys also gave the movie positive marks, but again not as high as the prior two movies.

And this needs to be mentioned. Despite all the people raging online that TLJ was somehow the worst thing since cancer, it got overwhealmingly positive critical reviews and audience reviews. Plus it took something in the order of $1.33 billion. None of that is a "failure" by any means.

The problem is that the ragers are far more visible, even if they are a tiny minority.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Kidd on 30 December 2019, 06:04:04
I did vote with my wallet, and watched neither TLJ nor Solo with my own money.

Well, after the horror of the last one, the family had decided we were not going to watch it. But then our extended family had some unexpected time to kill, and we wanted to do some group activity together, all of us, for Christmas. And my youngest cousin, the littlest boy wanted to... well... so there we were.

The 10 year old kid gives it 10 out of 10 by the way. So there's that. Yay.

Everyone else... was less than impressed.

I went in desperately trying to keep an open mind. There were a few good points, mainly related I think to JJ delivering a more consistent storyline and meandering less into irrelevancies like Rian did. But there were also many bad points, leading to an overall highly negative outlook.

In short, the positive points would be - plot threads generally tied off, set design mostly good with one glaring exception, CGI par for the course

The negative points would be - very bad camerawork, forgettable dialogue, rushed execution (not entirely the film's sole fault because it had to redress TLJ a bit), a couple of Rey's decisions were extremely frowned upon by all and sundry, and the general feeling of nothingness. The movie could be an episode of Star Trek, or Battlestar Galactica, or The Expanse, for all that it really matters; non-fans would not be able to tell. As far as they were concerned, "the Force is chi" (quoted).

1/10, would not watch again.

And this needs to be mentioned. Despite all the people raging online that TLJ was somehow the worst thing since cancer, it got overwhealmingly positive critical reviews and audience reviews. Plus it took something in the order of $1.33 billion. None of that is a "failure" by any means.

The problem is that the ragers are far more visible, even if they are a tiny minority.
In this day and age reviews are suspect. We know there are reviewers with agendas on both sides, for and against.

Gross worldwide give only a rough idea of audience sentiment. Second weekend and total domestic figures are more useful as they provide clues to audience word-of-mouth review.

Last but not least, we don't truly know the proportion of the "ragers", they could be a "tiny minority" or they could be more than that. Worse than "ragers" are the "indifferent", who were not sufficiently moved either way to write and post a positive or a negative review. The "silent majority" is a real thing and you will really only see their effects on the box office.

Speaking for my own family, as I said, most of them disliked TFA so much they didn't even bother with TLJ. And they didn't post any reviews for either TFA or TLJ.

There was no plan for the original trilogy either.
If that were true, that makes the clowns behind the Sequel trilogy even worse, dunnit? Since there is no excuse for them not having a plan and no excuse for delivering shoddy product without a plan either.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 30 December 2019, 06:19:52
If that were true, that makes the clowns behind the Sequel trilogy even worse, dunnit? Since there is no excuse for them not having a plan and no excuse for delivering shoddy product without a plan either.

By the metrics that count, the product wasn't shoddy.

Hell, by the metrics that count, the prequels weren't shoddy either.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 30 December 2019, 06:47:01

Flying isn't jumping.
As for jumping; traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy. Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

1) Luke had to fly through hyperspace to get from Dagobah to Bespin. The old Legends continuity did not have astromech droids with built in full blown navicomputers to calculate routes. R2 unit’s could simply contain 10 sets of hyperspace routes.

But that is Legends continuity.

2) Just looking at the films, Luke did not take R2 with him. Either he had another astromech droid with him, used the force to navigate hyperspace (which I covered in a previous post) or he modified his X-Wing to have a navigational computer. Any of these three things could them be used by Rey to travel to Exegol.

Edit: here’s a link to the wookiepedia entry for “instinctive astrogation”, the power Force users can use to navigate hyperspace in the Legends continuity:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Instinctive_astrogation?mobile-app=false (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Instinctive_astrogation?mobile-app=false)

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 30 December 2019, 07:59:19
Well, we made it a whole week and a half after release before people decided to throw mod directives to the wind and begin bickering and arguing...

Don't get this thread locked. Seriously.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Moonsword on 30 December 2019, 08:45:45
Thread locked for moderator review.

The fact I had to do this less than an hour after an administrator told you people to stop bickering?  That's why we can't have nice things.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Moonsword on 31 December 2019, 06:55:35
+++MOD NOTICE++

Okay.  I'm unlocking the thread now.  The attentive among you might notice some posts have been excised.

Let me make this perfectly clear:
The discussion on critical ratings and box office take is over.  It contributed to the back and forth that caused the moderation staff to step in last time, so you're done.  Look it up on your own time, debate it over PMs if you really want to, or take it to a Star Wars fan site.

This is a forum for BattleTech.  Other subjects exist at the sufferance of the forum administrators and as the moderators have noted, Star Wars threads have a tendency to turn into dumpster fires.  You were warned we're not going to be patient about it.  If certain specific people seem to be a problem, they'll be told to stop discussing certain topics.  That step has already been taken.

Stop the petty bickering and toxic sniping at each other.  If you can't behave, the forum moderators will handle that problem.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Brother Jim on 31 December 2019, 18:58:11
I plan to see it on Saturday.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: rebs on 31 December 2019, 20:01:25
I still haven't seen it yet, waiting for the crowds to die down.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 01 January 2020, 02:54:39
(https://i.imgur.com/nYNnGqo.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 01 January 2020, 02:59:50
Which is most of the gripes many have had about these new disney made films.  THEY Totally ignore prior film canon, to just tell "THEIR story"..

Yeah. The sequels have a long list of errors. For example, Rey's lightning destroys a ship but Palpatine's planet-wide force storm merely disables little starfighters like ion cannons.

Quote
All (IMO) cause he was probably an after-thought...

Unfortunately. But then, TLJ was the same movie that also messed up Luke.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 01 January 2020, 03:57:07
In my opinion ROTS is..at best adequate. And, if you don't think about it, its quite the spectacle with huge set pieces galore. But these are lobbed at you in such a flurry that it almost overwhelms you and basically you don't have time to think about what just happened because X is now happening.

Visually it was spectacular and there was some nice callbacks but its trying to do 2 movies in one. Episode 8 made a mess and this trilogy will probably be a warning to future film makers on how NOT to do a series of films. IE without an overarching idea. Episode 7 laid the groundwork, 8 ripped it all up and tried its own thing, 9 then has to re-tell the story that would be the follow on from 7, as well as tell its story and stick the landing. Hence the large amount of maguffins and exposition deluge to try and force the story along to get it to an end.

Yeah its not bad, its not terrible, we're not talking Indiana Jones and the Temple of the Crystal Skull here. But its sure as hell not great, better than 8 but that's not a high bar to meet, getting kicked in the head by a horse would be better than 8 so saying 'its better than 8' isn't much. About as good as 7, but when you think about the plotholes, the maguffin hunts the sheer number of things that don't just nudge the story along but ram it along like a nuclear potato gun. It lands not with a boom or a wet messy squelch, rather a 'eeeeehh...'

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: worktroll on 01 January 2020, 04:04:00
I was entertained. It was worth going. The music failed to be particularly memorable, except for older Williams cues (like the Palpatine cue), but workmanlike.

A lot of box ticking going on, agreed. And most things had one answer. "So, why Snoke?" "He was a clone puppet." "Why?" "You had your answer." Which in a light entertainment - not a philosophical work, not a religious opus, not a life-changing story - is entirely fine.

And I just figures that one person's force lightning could destroy one ship. By the time it was spread out over dozens, it was capable of zapping their electronics. No biggie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 01 January 2020, 04:10:44
Quote
The music failed to be particularly memorable, except for older Williams cues (like the Palpatine cue), but workmanlike.

That's a very good point, for this trilogy the music seems to largely be forgettable, I can't even remember how any of it went outside of the classic series queues.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: jimdigris on 01 January 2020, 10:28:35
The music did not break any new ground, but you need to remember that John Williams is 87.  All things considered, he did well to do two new themes for this trilogy.  He may have also been hamstrung on what the director wanted.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: worktroll on 01 January 2020, 13:59:46
At least I feel I can criticise the Zimmermatic in this thread. (Note: no Zimmermatic graduates were involved in the music for this film.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: jimdigris on 01 January 2020, 15:42:14
 ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: roosterboy on 01 January 2020, 16:02:47
Finally saw it yesterday. Perfectly serviceable entry in the series, but ultimately I was a bit bored. I don't care about Poe at all (in fact, I kinda hate him) and only slightly care about Finn. Rey is an interesting character but I was completely underwhelmed by the reveal of her parentage. Sticking with the answer given in TLJ would have been better than what we got here. I smiled when Wedge showed up and I was really surprised when Han did too. I hated that Anakin and Ben were not included as ghosts there at the end; they are Skywalkers too and it would have been appropriate to show the entire family as Rey adopts their surname and the saga named after them wrapped up.

Other than that, I can't really muster up much energy to care. It was definitely a JJ Abrams flick. Too much running and yelling and exploding punctuated by too few moments of genuine emotion and one or two ****** yeahs. More than anything, I wanted the movie to just slow down occasionally. But then, that's a problem I generally have with most modern blockbusters anyway, so that fault's not entirely on Abrams or Star Wars.

Y'know who really got the shaft during the sequels, though? R2. Even 3PO got his moment to shine but R2 got screwed out of screentime and action by that annoying little BB8. From his very first scene in TPM, R2 was one of the most heroic characters in the saga but the little guy had next to nothing to do in the sequels and was relegated to little more than a background role. I see some fans saying "Justice for Rose Tico" but I say "Justice for R2-D2!"
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 02 January 2020, 03:01:56
Finally saw it yesterday. Perfectly serviceable entry in the series, but ultimately I was a bit bored. I don't care about Poe at all (in fact, I kinda hate him) and only slightly care about Finn. Rey is an interesting character but I was completely underwhelmed by the reveal of her parentage. Sticking with the answer given in TLJ would have been better than what we got here. I smiled when Wedge showed up and I was really surprised when Han did too. I hated that Anakin and Ben were not included as ghosts there at the end; they are Skywalkers too and it would have been appropriate to show the entire family as Rey adopts their surname and the saga named after them wrapped up.

Poe has been hamstrung by being poorly written in the first two films.
He was a near non entity in TFA
And in TLJ, he was personally responsible for the destruction of the Resistance simply because he got a chip on his shoulder.
In RoS, his backstory was needlessly semi-retconned. They could have had Rose rework 3PO rather than his spice buddies.

Finn - IMO - had the most potentially interesting story. A Force sensitive stormtrooper who defected. But he also got turned into the comic relief guy - the elite stormtrooper, part of Kylo Rens unit, who turned out to be a janitor who somehow knew all about First order secret bases and top secret tech. They should have kept him with the fleet in TLJ and had him be an unwitting dupe, with a Force based personality overlay. The traitor the plot seemed to be trying so hard to set up only to have him eventually break free because he actually is a force sensitive himself.

Rey? I wouldn't have minded the "parents are nobodies" storyline (again - that is a repeat of Anakin) but Ridley wasn't capable of handling the lead role and the way the various holes in her past were handled was extremely poor. Rey needed a better actor, one able to handle the focal role of the franchise and the best I can say about Ridley is that she seems to have gotten some acting lessons in time for RoS. I'm not a fan of her work to date. She seems to be a fair voice actress but she loses something when she is onscreen. Still, she did improve with RoS which, IMO, is too little, too late. Like Poe and Finn, she was also hampered by a poor script though her story, flawed as it was, was the most developed.

All three characters are also surprisingly undeveloped despite their screentime - which I have to blame on poor scripting and uneven characterisation.

Quote
More than anything, I wanted the movie to just slow down occasionally.

Part of the problem here is that RoS was trying to fix the issues of TLJ - it was trying to fit two movies worth of material into one. It was only partially successful.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 02 January 2020, 08:22:36
Do you guys think they will revisit these characters?  I wasn't impression it was the end of the road for them in franchise, but some interviews suggest it was.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ogra_Chief on 02 January 2020, 10:05:01
Do you guys think they will revisit these characters?  I wasn't impression it was the end of the road for them in franchise, but some interviews suggest it was.

Well Oscar Isaac (Poe), stated he is done, don't think he's a Disney+ actor. Supposedly, Poe was to die in TFA, but his film presence was enough for them to remove his death.

John Boyega (Finn), seems very done given his recent online comments, that dude don't give a sugar anymore. He definitely has taken the Harrison Ford path. He's done, and not a Disney+ actor at this point.

Daisy Ridley (1/2 of Reylo) was done at the beginning, she has repeatedly stated she had no plans to continue after the trilogy. I'm sure the scrutiny of being a major Star Wars protagonist was jarring. Though it appears that Mark Hamil took her under his wing early on to mentor her on the possible pitfalls of playing her character, which I suspect is why she has navigated hype rather well. I'm sure Mark Hamil explained the pitfalls of 'type casting', the tides of fandom, and securing the future paycheck when the studio comes crawling back for nostalgia's sake.

Adam Driver (1/2 of Reylo) is story dead, not that that would be an impediment evidently, but given he can actually act, I'd say no. Also, fun fact, Driver was apart of the Jarhead Clan.

So, possibly, comics, books, animated series, etc.? Given the lack of attachment to the new crop of characters, Disney is likely to time jump forward or back, with new characters and settings.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 02 January 2020, 11:23:21
Well Oscar Isaac (Poe), stated he is done, don't think he's a Disney+ actor. Supposedly, Poe was to die in TFA, but his film presence was enough for them to remove his death.

John Boyega (Finn), seems very done given his recent online comments, that dude don't give a sugar anymore. He definitely has taken the Harrison Ford path. He's done, and not a Disney+ actor at this point.

Daisy Ridley (1/2 of Reylo) was done at the beginning, she has repeatedly stated she had no plans to continue after the trilogy. I'm sure the scrutiny of being a major Star Wars protagonist was jarring. Though it appears that Mark Hamil took her under his wing early on to mentor her on the possible pitfalls of playing her character, which I suspect is why she has navigated hype rather well. I'm sure Mark Hamil explained the pitfalls of 'type casting', the tides of fandom, and securing the future paycheck when the studio comes crawling back for nostalgia's sake.

Adam Driver (1/2 of Reylo) is story dead, not that that would be an impediment evidently, but given he can actually act, I'd say no. Also, fun fact, Driver was apart of the Jarhead Clan.

So, possibly, comics, books, animated series, etc.? Given the lack of attachment to the new crop of characters, Disney is likely to time jump forward or back, with new characters and settings.

I tend to agree.

More live action movies with those actors playing those characters?  Unlikely enough I feel safe saying a definitive no.

Animated medium with different voice actors or comics? Yeah we'll see more there with these characters.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 02 January 2020, 11:29:34
What on earth is a 'semi-retcon'?  Is that what we're calling backstory we don't like now? ???

(To be clear this is way more confused than it is snarky.  I can't figure out how to word it that isn't at least a little bit snarky.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 02 January 2020, 11:54:25
What on earth is a 'semi-retcon'?  Is that what we're calling backstory we don't like now? ???

(To be clear this is way more confused than it is snarky.  I can't figure out how to word it that isn't at least a little bit snarky.)

Concur. There's a huge difference between retconning(semi or otherwise) and filling in empty gaps. They're nothing alike.

I asked earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. Did anyone ever makes a list of known ships or ship types in the big rebel fleet? All I caught was the Ghost, some Profundity-types, and a U-wing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 02 January 2020, 12:21:26
Concur. There's a huge difference between retconning(semi or otherwise) and filling in empty gaps. They're nothing alike.

I asked earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. Did anyone ever makes a list of known ships or ship types in the big rebel fleet? All I caught was the Ghost, some Profundity-types, and a U-wing.

its not as great as you think. Its mostly stuff that was in other movies and cannon lore.

The Youtube channel Spacedock.... (great Scifi ship site) did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBwwNstmdzo

Also EckhartsLadder did a breakdown also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he1_csLnwmQ
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 02 January 2020, 12:51:33

I asked earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. Did anyone ever makes a list of known ships or ship types in the big rebel fleet? All I caught was the Ghost, some Profundity-types, and a U-wing.

Per the Wookieepedia entry:

MC75 and MC85 cruisers and various other Mon Cal ships
DP20 frigates
Nebulon-B and C frigates
Pelta-class frigates
Vakbeor-class cargo frigates
Braha’tok-class gunships
Sphyrna-class corvettes
Free Virgillia-class bunkerbusters
Baleen-class Heavy freighters
The Ghost
The Millenium Falcon
The Outrider (or at least some YT-2400 freighter)
And some other vessels

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 02 January 2020, 14:03:56
I know I saw a Fang fighter from Rebels when the lightning was flying, too.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 02 January 2020, 14:46:06
Poe has been hamstrung by being poorly written in the first two films.
He was a near non entity in TFA
And in TLJ, he was personally responsible for the destruction of the Resistance simply because he got a chip on his shoulder.

True, in TFA, he seemed to have, what.  Maybe 10 minutes of screen time. 3  in the intro, where he got caught, 2 in the escape, 2 over Mas Katana's place, and 3 more in the star killer battle...

Finn - IMO - had the most potentially interesting story. A Force sensitive stormtrooper who defected. But he also got turned into the comic relief guy - the elite stormtrooper, part of Kylo Rens unit, who turned out to be a janitor who somehow knew all about First order secret bases and top secret tech. They should have kept him with the fleet in TLJ and had him be an unwitting dupe, with a Force based personality overlay. The traitor the plot seemed to be trying so hard to set up only to have him eventually break free because he actually is a force sensitive himself.

Yea, it made NO sense what so ever to me, that a Storm trooper, would first off, be a Janitor.  Nor did it make any sense to retcon him into being a force user/force sensitive...
I'd have much preferred it if he was just someone who broke free of their brainwashing, and wanted to get GONE, then fell in love with Rey, so wanted to help the resistance to show that love..

Rey? I wouldn't have minded the "parents are nobodies" storyline (again - that is a repeat of Anakin) but Ridley wasn't capable of handling the lead role and the way the various holes in her past were handled was extremely poor.

See did seem underwhelming in TLJ to me.  And many of us fans had lots of different theories on her parentage..  BUT GOT BLOWN out of the water, with what they actually made her...

Well Oscar Isaac (Poe), stated he is done, don't think he's a Disney+ actor. Supposedly, Poe was to die in TFA, but his film presence was enough for them to remove his death.

John Boyega (Finn), seems very done given his recent online comments, that dude don't give a sugar anymore. He definitely has taken the Harrison Ford path. He's done, and not a Disney+ actor at this point.

Daisy Ridley (1/2 of Reylo) was done at the beginning, she has repeatedly stated she had no plans to continue after the trilogy. I'm sure the scrutiny of being a major Star Wars protagonist was jarring. Though it appears that Mark Hamil took her under his wing early on to mentor her on the possible pitfalls of playing her character, which I suspect is why she has navigated hype rather well. I'm sure Mark Hamil explained the pitfalls of 'type casting', the tides of fandom, and securing the future paycheck when the studio comes crawling back for nostalgia's sake.

Adam Driver (1/2 of Reylo) is story dead, not that that would be an impediment evidently, but given he can actually act, I'd say no. Also, fun fact, Driver was apart of the Jarhead Clan.

So, possibly, comics, books, animated series, etc.? Given the lack of attachment to the new crop of characters, Disney is likely to time jump forward or back, with new characters and settings.

Yea, i can't see any of them being back on the screen, but in comics/games, sure..
And i liked Driver the most out of those 4 main characters.  THOUGH the one i would love to see more explained about, is MAS Katana!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 02 January 2020, 15:29:18
Adam Driver was the best actor out of the big 4, it showed in the last movie more than the other 3. He matured more than the others as a actor.
I actually thought Daisy Ridley got worse over the movies....She was better in TFA over RoS.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 02 January 2020, 15:41:29
Yea, it made NO sense what so ever to me, that a Storm trooper, would first off, be a Janitor.

I assumed this was a duty he had before he was elevated to full Stormtrooper rank. Like, maintain the garbage chutes until you pass your qualification tests. I know it was put in there as a gag, but I didn't find it completely unbelievable.

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 02 January 2020, 16:23:30
Cause troopers never get literal shit details.   ;)

Makes me wonder if the prior TFA line about no previous problems was accurate.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 02 January 2020, 19:19:36
Ah, no.  I was referring to on screen where Phasma (?) is talking about Finn being sent for review, after he helps Poe escape.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 02 January 2020, 21:43:28
Phasma story really got mucked up and abandoned unfortunately.  I was surprised they didn't try salvage her story but maybe there was too many tweeks and fixes last movie allow her story go.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Death Monkey on 03 January 2020, 01:24:23
I assumed this was a duty he had before he was elevated to full Stormtrooper rank. Like, maintain the garbage chutes until you pass your qualification tests. I know it was put in there as a gag, but I didn't find it completely unbelievable.

Damon.

During my time in the Navy, there was a wonderful tradition called mess cranking. Pretty much every E-3 and below got send to be a janitor/busboy/maid for a certain period of time. Maybe the First Order reinstated it?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 03 January 2020, 01:33:26
Plus there is a certain question of who would be the janitor in his stead in a secure area?

The First Order arrogantly(and wrongfully) believed their conditioning techniques were effective so from that perspective it makes sense why they'd use their conditioned troops for menial tasks.

After all it is use a Stormtrooper or vet someone else.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 03 January 2020, 02:36:13
Plus there is a certain question of who would be the janitor in his stead in a secure area?

The First Order arrogantly(and wrongfully) believed their conditioning techniques were effective so from that perspective it makes sense why they'd use their conditioned troops for menial tasks.

After all it is use a Stormtrooper or vet someone else.

Or they could do what everyone else does and use a droid.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 03 January 2020, 02:46:09
Cause troopers never get literal shit details.   ;)


Regular army or navy troopers, maybe.  STORM troopers (who are supposed to be the elite), i just can't see it.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 January 2020, 07:41:15
Regular army or navy troopers, maybe.  STORM troopers (who are supposed to be the elite), i just can't see it.

Well you have all these Stormtrooper and they have nothing to do. Instead of training them of battle tactics, and shooting.....give them basic recruit jobs.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 03 January 2020, 08:59:26
Aren't Storm troopers kidnapped young people the First Order brainwashed into being their troops? 

I do find the idea horrible but writers are writers when their told by bigger wigs to write something. I rather see clones done instead. 

I did fine the point of the Sith's objectives in the movie baffling. (Destroy all the inhabited planets in universe so they will obey.) With no one left in the universe who will work with them?  Again i though it was over reach/over the top threat for the good guys who seems be way out numbered.)  Frankly I expect the fallout with the New Republic government "destroyed" by Star Killer One, the organized space will be chaotic / political nation fighting / high piracy / Criminal Activity  - Aka nice back ground for a RPG setting but that's it.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 03 January 2020, 09:04:22
Regular army or navy troopers, maybe.  STORM troopers (who are supposed to be the elite), i just can't see it.

Who says that Stormtroopers are elite enough to be able to avoid the menial stuff every other soldier has to do throughout history? Have we seen "regular army' First Order troops (as opposed to things like technicians)? In Rogue One we see stormtroopers on prisoner transport duties...something you would use "regular army" type troopers for if Stormtroopers were really the cream of the crop. IMHO not something the SW universe establishes.

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 03 January 2020, 09:10:35
Per the Wookieepedia entry:

MC75 and MC85 cruisers and various other Mon Cal ships
DP20 frigates
Nebulon-B and C frigates
Pelta-class frigates
Vakbeor-class cargo frigates
Braha’tok-class gunships
Sphyrna-class corvettes
Free Virgillia-class bunkerbusters
Baleen-class Heavy freighters
The Ghost
The Millenium Falcon
The Outrider (or at least some YT-2400 freighter)
And some other vessels

Ruger

Apparently no thought was given to show us an actual working New Republic navy. If that big fleet that arrived right at the end had existed for so long, it baffles the mind why they never appeared in the combined prior 7+ hours of the sequel movies. The uninformed viewer can assume that the First Order has conquered the galaxy with a pitiful fleet of 30 Star Destroyers and a dreadnought and think that Palpatine's fleet of Xyston-class is overkill.

No thought was even given to portray the logistics of constructing, recruiting and supplying the Xyston fleet and legions of stormtroopers on Exegol. Palpatine literally has hammerspace powers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 03 January 2020, 09:18:23
Who says that Stormtroopers are elite enough to be able to avoid the menial stuff every other soldier has to do throughout history? Have we seen "regular army' First Order troops (as opposed to things like technicians)? In Rogue One we see stormtroopers on prisoner transport duties...something you would use "regular army" type troopers for if Stormtroopers were really the cream of the crop. IMHO not something the SW universe establishes.

Damon.

I can see both sides of this coin. On one hand you have the fairly typical military mindset for soldiers to be doing menial/trying tasks. This achieves two aims, reminding the junior ranks who's the boss, and building esprit de corps because humans tend to gain resilience and bond more strongly in adverse environments, and you don't want your soldiers first facing adverse environments in combat.

On the other hand, FO Stormtroopers aren't elite, they are purely cannon fodder. The First Order wasn't particularly large, but still mostly won battles by sheer weight of numbers. Stormtroopers were expendable, and conditioned and trained to see each other as such. In this environment you don't want them bonding, as this will lead them to try and keep each other alive, allow popular groups to grow and potentially pose a threat to the hierarchy, incredibly common in militaristic orders.

In the second environment you want your soldiers to be automatons, not caring thinking people.

To top this off, no matter what your stripe here, a soldier is unlikely to be posted to a sanitation position. That was added in pretty much for comic relief and to aid in believing that Finn would know where a garbage chute was no matter where they were in the station.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 03 January 2020, 09:35:05
Apparently no thought was given to show us an actual working New Republic navy. If that big fleet that arrived right at the end had existed for so long, it baffles the mind why they never appeared in the combined prior 7+ hours of the sequel movies. The uninformed viewer can assume that the First Order has conquered the galaxy with a pitiful fleet of 30 Star Destroyers and some dreadnoughts and think that Palpatine's fleet of Xyston-class is overkill.

No thought was even given to portray the logistics of constructing, recruiting and supplying the Xyston fleet and legions of stormtroopers on Exegol. Palpatine literally has hammerspace powers.
My impression is they didn't spend money on adding new new ships to fleet of civilians that responded to the plea for help.
Looks like nothing from the 2nd movie for ships goes, including the new Star Dreadnought & the Star Destroyer-Carrier  from the first movie from what i saw was present at all.  Unless they were tiny image on big 3D screen. Entire new Sith fleet for the First Order was ancient SDs. 

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: nckestrel on 03 January 2020, 11:20:11
I agree it was poorly presented (the fleet).

apparently the New Republic never went to war with the First Order (thus Leia having to form a private Resistance movement) before the New Republic capital/Senate was destroyed by the Starkiller.  The New Republic basically cease to exist at that point.

So Lando had to go to each individual system and convince them separately to go to war, and send their fleets to Exegol and join the Resistance in their planned fight there.  so the individual planets still had their fleet, they just needed somebody to coordinate them.  The First Order never conquered the galaxy.  They destroyed the New Republic as a government, and nearly destroyed the Resistance. 

But the movies were so focused on the Resistance v First Order that it appears the First Order has conquered everything and the appearance of an allied fleet is out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 03 January 2020, 12:19:14
My impression is they didn't spend money on adding new new ships to fleet of civilians that responded to the plea for help.
Looks like nothing from the 2nd movie for ships goes, including the new Star Dreadnought & the Star Destroyer-Carrier  from the first movie from what i saw was present at all.  Unless they were tiny image on big 3D screen. Entire new Sith fleet for the First Order was ancient SDs.

The Sith fleet was comprised of Xyston-class Star Destroyers. They may look similar to the older Imperial Star Destroyers, but they are half again as long (about 2400 meters in length).

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 03 January 2020, 15:18:15
(Destroy all the inhabited planets in universe so they will obey.)

No, an ultimatum was broadcast: Surrender or be destroyed.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 03 January 2020, 15:49:02
No, an ultimatum was broadcast: Surrender or be destroyed.

And the bloody broadcast was in Fortenite!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u0ejXC7kFs


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 05 January 2020, 07:24:03
My impression is they didn't spend money on adding new new ships to fleet of civilians that responded to the plea for help.
Looks like nothing from the 2nd movie for ships goes, including the new Star Dreadnought & the Star Destroyer-Carrier  from the first movie from what i saw was present at all.  Unless they were tiny image on big 3D screen. Entire new Sith fleet for the First Order was ancient SDs.

The Star Destroyer-Carrier did appear as Kylo's ship in RoS, but they inexplicably disappeared in the final battle.

I agree it was poorly presented (the fleet).

apparently the New Republic never went to war with the First Order (thus Leia having to form a private Resistance movement) before the New Republic capital/Senate was destroyed by the Starkiller.  The New Republic basically cease to exist at that point.

So Lando had to go to each individual system and convince them separately to go to war, and send their fleets to Exegol and join the Resistance in their planned fight there.  so the individual planets still had their fleet, they just needed somebody to coordinate them.  The First Order never conquered the galaxy.  They destroyed the New Republic as a government, and nearly destroyed the Resistance. 

But the movies were so focused on the Resistance v First Order that it appears the First Order has conquered everything and the appearance of an allied fleet is out of nowhere.

Even if they destroyed the capital and the central government, don't they have regional or sector capitals/strongpoints to rally around? Like Corellia, Mon Calamari, Kuat, Fondor etc. Agreed that the Resistance v First Order conflict was too focused upon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 05 January 2020, 10:38:07
I believe they wanted to focus more on the character's story arcs. I'm fine with it but i think entire movie Suffered in sense.

Which i don't think gives a lot time on other details like ships and fleshing out alot new things like what heck happened to the New Republic and it's parts.

Everything in the story almost felt...rushed.   Sorry it's just how it felt. Once Kylo Ren became Ben Solo, he seemed to not be as big of character anymore. Almost new one, which didn't have enough time establish who is Ben Solo. 

The Sith world's difficulty of being found like they took Solo movie's very messed up Kessel Run cloud/nebular and reused it reason why no one knew where the world was.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 06 January 2020, 06:53:58
I believe they wanted to focus more on the character's story arcs. I'm fine with it but i think entire movie Suffered in sense.

Which i don't think gives a lot time on other details like ships and fleshing out alot new things like what heck happened to the New Republic and it's parts.

Everything in the story almost felt...rushed.   Sorry it's just how it felt. Once Kylo Ren became Ben Solo, he seemed to not be as big of character anymore. Almost new one, which didn't have enough time establish who is Ben Solo. 

The Sith world's difficulty of being found like they took Solo movie's very messed up Kessel Run cloud/nebular and reused it reason why no one knew where the world was.

The character focus would be better if they made a cohesive trilogy. Rian Johnson really did too much damage for RoS to fix it.

Kylo Ren's redemption to Ben Solo is one of the things that made it feel like a second movie was better than two in one.

Curious. I didn't connect it to Kessel. The cloud/nebula effect kept bringing up memories of Malachor V from KOTOR II.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 06 January 2020, 09:45:16
Want to say I finally watched it this weekend with my 10yo daughter. She loved it & said she cried a little at the end. For me though, I have to agree: pacing was off from the start, which made the dialog almost frenetic in parts. I thought any scene with the Emp in it was pretty well done, but everything felt rushed, & some elements (like the Knights of Ren) were poorly used. While I appreciate all the scenes with Leia using actual footage of Fisher, it felt clumsy & she came across as being out-of-it, rather than integrated into the scenes she was a part of. Unnatural. IMHO it would have been better to kill her off at the beginning of the movie somehow than what we got. I still am unclear on her connection with Kylo/Ben & how that "turned" him. There was also very little world building (it would have been nice when they go to the Sith homeworld to get a little bit of exposition & history to add to the setting).

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 06 January 2020, 15:37:05
I saw this article today as well: https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/why-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-director-j-j-abrams-will-likely-never-work-with-disney-again.html/

If this is true, it seems Disney rushed this one out, & IMHO it shows.

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 06 January 2020, 16:10:58
I saw this article today as well: https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/why-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-director-j-j-abrams-will-likely-never-work-with-disney-again.html/

If this is true, it seems Disney rushed this one out, & IMHO it shows.

Damon.

Let's be blunt -IMO, this is easily the best of the Sequel trilogy.

But it isn't perfect. Far from it. And its flaws stem MOSTLY from the way the first two films were mishandled, specifically the disaster that was TLJ

There was obviously no planning involved in the creation of this trilogy...meaning RJ jettisoned much of what TFA set up, and JJ retruned the favour jettisoning much of what TLJ did.
The film is rushed because it is trying to fit an entire trilogy worth of story into just two hours.
The film has plot holes because much of what needed to be set up in the previosu two films...wasn't.

The worst part is that it is still easily the best of the trilogy, and shows how badly both TFA and TLJ were handled. It's all to easy to suggest that Lucas also set out with no overarcing vision, or a linked trilogy but he also crafted three largely independent films where each built upon the last and where plot hooks were left as plot hooks without growing into logic bombs and plot holes.

TFA and TLJ never had that luxury and so RoS had too much to do.

I don't think there is much that Disney could do to fix it. They weren't going to restart the trilogy and the film needed another hour or runtime to make some degree of headway. Better yet, it needed an extra film or two.



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Dubble_g on 07 January 2020, 01:16:08
I think one of the things that bugs a lot of people is how Palpatine's survival undermines the characters' sacrifices and triumphs in the previous movies. It bugs me, too. But in fairness to the writers and directors, would it have been possible to create a sequel to the original trilogy which didn't, in some way or form, undermine the achievements and accomplishments of the previous two trilogies?

The obvious answer from EU fans is the "Thrawn Trilogy", but even there, regardless of what you think of the quality of the writing, it would mean the final victory in ROTJ wasn't final, Anakin Skywalker didn't restore peace to the galaxy, and so on. In addition, any story about how the New Republic isn't so great after all simply winds up retreading the same ground as the prequels.

I think if you look at a lot of the best-loved SF/Fantasy sequels, usually they've been follow ups to small-scale, low-stakes, character-driven stories rather than end-of-the-universe "Chosen One" tales:

Aliens--Original focused on one alien, one crew, one ship, leaving room for expansion and escalation.

Wrath of Khan--Star Trek was built around a serialized, monster/villain-of-the-week format, and the ST II's villain's goals are very specific to the character.

Dark Knight Returns--Comic books in general have a certain degree of recursiveness built into the format--you know that no matter how many times Batman defeats the Joker, the Joker will always escape again--so as with Star Trek, it's more of a defeat the villain of the week format rather than "save the world" story.

Mad Max (either II or Fury Road, depending on your tastes)--Again, the focus is on the survival of one specific group of people, not the entire planet.

*Borderline Case*
Terminator 2--This one walks the line, as John Connor is a kind of a save-the-world "Chosen One" figure, but I'd argue T2 works because the main character is his mom, Sarah Connor, and her survival/victory in T1 is never negated or retconned. I think this is also why later sequels have struggled.

*Exception that Proves the Rule?*
Lord of the Rings--As a sequel to the Hobbit, it again expands on an (apparently) small-scale adventure. It's interesting to also consider LotR as a "sequel" to the Silmarillion, even though that was published after LotR and indeed after the death of JRR Tolkien himself, where the stakes are actually much smaller, and it does appear to undermine the victory over Morgoth. However, here the overall theme of Tolkien's works is one of the gradual fading/decline of magic and its replacement by our very mundane and ordinary world. It's notable that Tolkien tried and quickly gave up any attempt to write a sequel to LotR, noting it would only be about how people get bored with goodness, and thus wasn't worth writing about.

In that sense, I think it's also very notable that there has been a much more positive reaction to the Mandalorian, which is, yep, you guessed it, small-scale and character-driven.

TL;DR I don't think ANY sequel series would have been rewarding to watch, as you're trying to follow up the kind of story which by its very nature doesn't lend itself to sequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 07 January 2020, 07:07:14
The Thrawn books were great because Thrawn was previously a subordinate that could stand on his own after being left to his own devices, proving a worthy challenge to the main characters and merely defeated by a twist of fate.

New Jedi Order was YMMV, but IMO it did well to introduce unique new enemies that didn't retread old ground or reinvent the wheel like TFA or TLJ. Even Dark Empire was crazy awesome because it took the time to do world-building and gave us lots of new units with varied abilities but the sequel movies seem to be fixated on Khyber crystals and different styles of superlasers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2020, 09:48:55
I think one of the things that bugs a lot of people is how Palpatine's survival undermines the characters' sacrifices and triumphs in the previous movies.

I'll never understand this attitude. Where is it written that a victory must be absolute and permanent to count as such? Winning a fight doesn't mean there are no more fights. The Rebel Alliance brought down an empire, and brought decades of peace to the galaxy. The survival/resurrection of the big bad at the top doesn't change any of that. And when the First Order arrived to undo everything and Palpatine cackled his evil cackle once more, it was Rebel veterans and the memory of the Alliance itself that lead and inspired the Resistance to carry on their fight, so Resistance victories are also Rebel victories.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 07 January 2020, 10:52:39
I'll never understand this attitude. Where is it written that a victory must be absolute and permanent to count as such? Winning a fight doesn't mean there are no more fights. The Rebel Alliance brought down an empire, and brought decades of peace to the galaxy. The survival/resurrection of the big bad at the top doesn't change any of that. And when the First Order arrived to undo everything and Palpatine cackled his evil cackle once more, it was Rebel veterans and the memory of the Alliance itself that lead and inspired the Resistance to carry on their fight, so Resistance victories are also Rebel victories.

I think if you interpret the point of the movies as being the overthrow of the Empire, then yes I can see how bringing back the Emperor undoes that victory at the end of Jedi. However, as Lucas stated the movies are Anakin's story, then the point of the movies isn't the overthrow of the Empire, per se, but the redemption of Anakin. Bringing back the Emperor absolutely does not invalidate that victory.

Damon
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Insaniac99 on 07 January 2020, 11:14:19
I'll never understand this attitude. Where is it written that a victory must be absolute and permanent to count as such? Winning a fight doesn't mean there are no more fights. The Rebel Alliance brought down an empire, and brought decades of peace to the galaxy. The survival/resurrection of the big bad at the top doesn't change any of that. And when the First Order arrived to undo everything and Palpatine cackled his evil cackle once more, it was Rebel veterans and the memory of the Alliance itself that lead and inspired the Resistance to carry on their fight, so Resistance victories are also Rebel victories.

I can explain that a little.  This is an image (https://imgur.com/a/Rgz3HPf#CCuyrjV) I see going around. It lays down a course of events that have to have happened to get from where we left the characters to where we see them int he new series.  I don't take Triumphs to just be about the BBEG, but the character's own personal triumphs.

Leia, goes from a powerful leader in the New Republic, only to have the republic ignore a threat until they construct a more devastating super weapon that destroys the capital worlds

Han Solo, who grew out of his loner smuggling ways in the first series has not only returned to them, but then lost the falcon and had to be taught how to repair his own ship.

Are these an other changes possible? perhaps, but it isn't satisfying to see the heroes of the old story all have failed so spectacularly without seeing the fall.  We saw them triumph, and we return to them all having fallen already. 

I think it would have been better to either jump ahead to where our old heroes are already dead, or have a trilogy showing the fall of the previous heroes in a way that makes sense to the characters rather than just a simple reversion.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 January 2020, 11:45:53
Take this with the appropriate shaker of salt: www.theforce.net/story/front/RUMOR_Has_The_Next_Era_Of_Star_Wars_Films_Been_Revealed_186119.asp
 (http://www.theforce.net/story/front/RUMOR_Has_The_Next_Era_Of_Star_Wars_Films_Been_Revealed_186119.asp)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 07 January 2020, 11:49:05
I can explain that a little.  This is an image (https://imgur.com/a/Rgz3HPf#CCuyrjV) I see going around. It lays down a course of events that have to have happened to get from where we left the characters to where we see them int he new series.  I don't take Triumphs to just be about the BBEG, but the character's own personal triumphs.

Leia, goes from a powerful leader in the New Republic, only to have the republic ignore a threat until they construct a more devastating super weapon that destroys the capital worlds

Han Solo, who grew out of his loner smuggling ways in the first series has not only returned to them, but then lost the falcon and had to be taught how to repair his own ship.

Are these an other changes possible? perhaps, but it isn't satisfying to see the heroes of the old story all have failed so spectacularly without seeing the fall.  We saw them triumph, and we return to them all having fallen already. 

I think it would have been better to either jump ahead to where our old heroes are already dead, or have a trilogy showing the fall of the previous heroes in a way that makes sense to the characters rather than just a simple reversion.

You can see at least a large portion of what happened with Liea in the novel Bloodline. This also provides some details on what happened with Han, as does the Aftermath series of novels and the Star Wars Adventures comics.

You can see the formation of Kylo Ren in the comic series “The Rise of Kylo Ren”.

There are several other novels, comics, etc. that provide the background info you ask for above.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2020, 11:55:43
Leia, goes from a powerful leader in the New Republic, only to have the republic ignore a threat until they construct a more devastating super weapon that destroys the capital worlds
Again, she helped bring about decades of peace, and her subsequent leadership and example helped the Resistance fight the First Order. Not a failure, especially since she continued the fight when the new thread arose.
Quote
Han Solo, who grew out of his loner smuggling ways in the first series has not only returned to them, but then lost the falcon and had to be taught how to repair his own ship.
He hadn't owned the Falcon in years, of course he wasn't familiar with the modifications the interim owner had made. I'd find it incredibly hard to believe if he'd simply jumped right back in like putting on an old jacket. As for the rest? Divorces/estrangements and midlife crises happen to folks, it's called living lives. If you're going to see these characters as people, then you also have to accept that people things are going to happen to them. We knew from the moment Force Awakens was announced that it wasn't going to be a happy ever after for them, otherwise there wouldn't have been anything to make the new trilogy about.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: MadCapellan on 07 January 2020, 12:12:38
f you're going to see these characters as people, then you also have to accept that people things are going to happen to them. We knew from the moment Force Awakens was announced that it wasn't going to be a happy ever after for them, otherwise there wouldn't have been anything to make the new trilogy about.

A) Star Wars was always billed by Lucas as modern myth -a fairytale in space. Gritty realism is out of step with the nature of Star Wars.

B) A sequel with a new generation of heroes & a new threat didn't require all the previous heroes to so disappointingly degrade. See also the previous decades Star Wars fiction.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2020, 12:35:15
Lucas also thinks that Palpatine wheezing out 'Unlimited Power!' on Ian McDiarmid's worst day of acting was somehow dramatic or intimidating or whatever he was going for. I feel no obligation to incorporate his views into my moviegoing experience.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 January 2020, 13:07:24
Lucas also thinks that Palpatine wheezing out 'Unlimited Power!' on Ian McDiarmid's worst day of acting was somehow dramatic or intimidating or whatever he was going for. I feel no obligation to incorporate his views into my moviegoing experience.
Lucas doesn't like dialogue, he thinks it's coarse and irritating and it gets everywhere.  He can still tell a pretty solid story outside of that.  Or at least, he could in the past; it's debatable nowadays (looking at you, Red Tails)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: MadCapellan on 07 January 2020, 15:42:02
Lucas also thinks that Palpatine wheezing out 'Unlimited Power!' on Ian McDiarmid's worst day of acting was somehow dramatic or intimidating or whatever he was going for. I feel no obligation to incorporate his views into my moviegoing experience.

I wasn't attempting to convince you to change your views.

I'll never understand this attitude. Where is it written that a victory must be absolute and permanent to count as such?

I was simply attempting to assist in your understanding the above. Some of us don't believe in Death of the Author, crave an uplifting fantasy tale of heroics, & associate the Star Wars brandname with such because its creator did the same. It may not be to your liking, but I don't think it's that hard to comprehend.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Dubble_g on 07 January 2020, 19:37:20
I guess it all comes down to what you see the "core" of Star Wars as being. Just to take a couple of examples from this thread (not picking on anyone, just examples to illustrate):

A) Star Wars was always billed by Lucas as modern myth -a fairytale in space. Gritty realism is out of step with the nature of Star Wars.

I think if you interpret the point of the movies as being the overthrow of the Empire, then yes I can see how bringing back the Emperor undoes that victory at the end of Jedi. However, as Lucas stated the movies are Anakin's story, then the point of the movies isn't the overthrow of the Empire, per se, but the redemption of Anakin. Bringing back the Emperor absolutely does not invalidate that victory.

Is the core
(A) The tone/style of a fairy tale or heroic, galaxy-sweeping space opera adventure? (as in MadCapellan's example)
(B) The characters, i.e. the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker? (Garrand's example)
(C) The universe itself, the TIE fighters and X-wings and AT-ATs and lightsabers and all that? (Rich Evans of Red Letter Media has argued that point in several reviews)
(D) The themes, adolescent yearning for adventure and grappling with the responsibilities of adulthood, love and redemption, evil=control/oppression/dictatorship vs. good=freedom/individuality
... or something else?

Of course, it's not going to be 100% one of those things, but I think as a thought experiment it's useful to try to identify which one is the biggest/most important, most core element. Because, just as an example, if you go with option (A) tone/style, then you wouldn't do a movie like Rogue One, which is much more downbeat. Similarly, if you say it's option (B) the characters, then you really can't do any more as you've already told their stories.

Personally, even as a kid I was always more invested in the look, feel and sound of the universe than Luke's story, so I'd go with (C). I just enjoy spending time in the universe, so I'd be happy to watch a heist movie or a war movie or a comedy-adventure set there. But I can see if you want the tone of SW or the characters, then that approach would be disappointing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 08 January 2020, 13:16:30
You can see at least a large portion of what happened with Liea in the novel Bloodline. This also provides some details on what happened with Han, as does the Aftermath series of novels and the Star Wars Adventures comics.

People shouldn't have to read a novel (or three) to figure out "Why is XYZ this way, when he used to be ABC"??/
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: worktroll on 08 January 2020, 13:30:32
I'm kinda with that.

I like the idea that novels, etc expand on things that couldn't fit in the movie, but would prefer not to have to rely on external sources to understand basic plot elements.

Plus you've got the 'sprawl' problem that affected the old EU so badly. Even here, the zig-zag-zig between three films - TFA, TLJ, TROS - has the potential to throw external works out of synch. For example, Phasma - as a character never actually 'lived' in the movies for me; was she explained in a book? And if so, would the book have been made irrelevant by the character's minimal use in  TLJ?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 08 January 2020, 13:32:16
Phasma got her own book with her origin story. I felt it was a real plod to get through & not especially interesting.

And Phasma as a character was grossly underused, & a waste of Gwendolyn Christie's talents.

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 08 January 2020, 19:50:31
Something amusing.  This is related to this.
Do you think this was deliberate. The link a imgur picture.

Uh i lost the link in editing...sorry everyone.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: KayEmm on 09 January 2020, 01:06:54
Saw again for the second time today. First time was the "friends and family" viewing, and the second was the "watching for myself and noticing stuff" viewing.
So I felt like throwing down a few thoughts of my own as what's otherwise a lurker. (But a huge Star Wars fan). This is very Stream of Consciousness.

Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley's shared chemistry throughout the series, but especially in this film is fantastic. There's an amazing intensity and energy between the pair of them that you don't get otherwise in Star Wars. While there's the playful banter between Harrison and Carrie, yes, it's a different type of chemistry. (Conversely Hayden and Natalie rarely look like they're in the same room). While it's especially true in the fight scenes, just everything they do well together works fantastically for me.

Kylo/Ben's scar vanishes after Rey heals him. Force healing or imagery? Why not both?

There's a very strong case for Finn being Force-Sensitive. I figure it's what he wanted to say to Rey myself. It also feels like Jannah is as well to me based on little bits and pieces.

There's a massive Poe/Finn undertone. I'm calling it the Poemance.

I love the look of the Knights of Ren. They serve their function as ominous henchmen and then a miniboss fight along the way.

Speaking of, Ben is all "this saber is the weapon that killed my father and is a symbol of all my failures, I'm throwing it away!". And then later he's so "I wish I hadn't done that"

Ian Mcdairmid spends most of the film as an ominous vague shadow and yet he still is so much ham. I love it.

Zori goes into battle with a Muppet. She's smart. You should allways have one.

Oh, and nameless female Stormtroopers. That's something I'm amazingly happy with.

I never realised before now that I've always wanted to ride a horse on a Star Destroyer.

I can't wait to get it on DVD (or something) to play the Pause and spot the ship game.

All in all, I loved the Sequel Trilogy. I'd take them any day over the Prequel Trilogy. It's hard to call on the Original Trilogy, because Nostalgia takes a powerful pull. I'd take any of those over the old Expanded Universe, however. (Then again, I'd also take a rusty fork to the eye over the old EU, so take that how you will)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 09 January 2020, 02:28:02
Phasma got her own book with her origin story. I felt it was a real plod to get through & not especially interesting.

And Phasma as a character was grossly underused, & a waste of Gwendolyn Christie's talents.

Damon.

I think they tried to do for her, what they did with Boba fett.  BUT the fans didn't LIKE it..

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 09 January 2020, 04:43:55
I think they tried to do for her, what they did with Boba fett.  BUT the fans didn't LIKE it..



Hyped up character based on their first appearance who goes out like a goon in their second?  Yup, sounds like Boba Fett to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 09 January 2020, 05:09:49
I'm kinda with that.

I like the idea that novels, etc expand on things that couldn't fit in the movie, but would prefer not to have to rely on external sources to understand basic plot elements.

Plus you've got the 'sprawl' problem that affected the old EU so badly. Even here, the zig-zag-zig between three films - TFA, TLJ, TROS - has the potential to throw external works out of synch. For example, Phasma - as a character never actually 'lived' in the movies for me; was she explained in a book? And if so, would the book have been made irrelevant by the character's minimal use in  TLJ?

This is my feeling too, I will be entertained by media as I see fit, not as I need to just to understand your movie. I love reading books, but find that Star Wars books are pretty universally poorly written, and I'm not going to fork out another $20 on a book only to find out I can't get through it. I also don't read comics anymore, and haven't for more than a decade.

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: KayEmm on 09 January 2020, 06:10:36
Hyped up character based on their first appearance who goes out like a goon in their second?  Yup, sounds like Boba Fett to me.

I heard that he fell in the Sarlacc pitt three times. That's clearly what made him so popular.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 09 January 2020, 06:55:21
This is my feeling too, I will be entertained by media as I see fit, not as I need to just to understand your movie. I love reading books, but find that Star Wars books are pretty universally poorly written, and I'm not going to fork out another $20 on a book only to find out I can't get through it. I also don't read comics anymore, and haven't for more than a decade.

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.

That's Disney taking a page from EA and many others. DLC in software form wasn't enough, so now we have multi-format "DLCs".
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 09 January 2020, 07:34:06

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.

I think you just described Luke Skywalker (in A New Hope) and Admiral Ackbar (in Return of the Jedi), correct? 

Edit: btw, one thing I will admit to being irritated at is the fact that the novelization of the movie confirms that Nien Nunb is killed at the helm of the Tantive IV during the Battle of Exegol.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 09 January 2020, 08:15:44
I thought the novelization wasn't out 'till March 3rd?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 09 January 2020, 08:18:30
I thought the novelization wasn't out 'till March 3rd?

Not sure, but already have info posted on Wookieepedia, and seen other reports via yahoo.

And the author confirmed via Twitter.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CranstonSnord on 09 January 2020, 09:19:50
This is my feeling too, I will be entertained by media as I see fit, not as I need to just to understand your movie. I love reading books, but find that Star Wars books are pretty universally poorly written, and I'm not going to fork out another $20 on a book only to find out I can't get through it. I also don't read comics anymore, and haven't for more than a decade.

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.

The book I'm currently reading, Force Collector, is IMO the 6th best Star Wars novel Disney has put out. And it's a Young Adult novel. Let that sink in. The new Thrawn trilogy is 1-3, then From A Certain Point of View, then Master and Apprentice. Disclaimer: I've only read about 20 of the Disney books.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 09 January 2020, 09:23:46
Is there a guide or something to current EU publications? I was an avid collector of the old EU(only falling off during the Yuuzhan Vong stuff), and would love a list of things to look for whenever I next assault a used bookstore.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 09 January 2020, 09:29:52
Is there a guide or something to current EU publications? I was an avid collector of the old EU(only falling off during the Yuuzhan Vong stuff), and would love a list of things to look for whenever I next assault a used bookstore.

Are you looking for Legends EU or books published under the Disney banner (which are all canonical)?

I’m assuming the latter, but want to be sure.

Also, are you just looking for novels or also things like info books on ships, bounty hunters, smugglers, etc.?

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 09 January 2020, 09:34:38
Current canon, and novels, please.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 09 January 2020, 10:11:26
Current canon, and novels, please.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Canon_adult_novels (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Canon_adult_novels)

There are also juvenile, young reader and young adult novels that are canon.

For that last, I really enjoyed Ahsoka.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 09 January 2020, 10:47:18
I think you just described Luke Skywalker (in A New Hope) and Admiral Ackbar (in Return of the Jedi), correct? 

Luke was introduced as a pilot....going to the academy, being able to fly a ship, shooting womprats in Beggars Canyon.
Rey was not. Rey was introduced as a scavenger.

Holdo was introduced as a replacement commander, shuttled in from one of the other ships. In this, she had about as much introduction as Ackbar. More. Holdos problem is that she wasn't Ackbar.

A large chunk of the story revolved around her but we weren't given anything about her. No reason to support Poe in his idiotic distrust of her. Ackbar was an established character who should have been the character RJ used. And then Poes story could have been based on distrust that he is "past it", not the Admiral he used to be while Ackbars reticence at explaining his plans could be explained away as being burnt by Endor.

Instead....we got Holdo. A new character with no background, no story. The initial intro is carried out by Poe who seems very impressed with her and her backstory but then gets a major chip on his shoulder when she rightfully points out he doesn't need to know her plans and his history shows him to be an unnecessary distraction.

Holdos entire storyline here appears to be one where a new character was brought in simply to play the part of a traitor, excusing Poes paranoia, only for the traitor storyline to be dropped.

But her intro itself was OK.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 09 January 2020, 11:07:34
Luke was introduced as a pilot....going to the academy, being able to fly a ship, shooting womprats in Beggars Canyon.
Rey was not. Rey was introduced as a scavenger.

Rey also bounced the Falcon off of no fewer than three large flat surfaces the first time they took off.  This point always confuses me because we're shown in explicit detail that Rey is bad at this but the Force is a fantastic crutch in the form of reflexes and intuition.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 09 January 2020, 11:23:27
Luke was introduced as a pilot....going to the academy, being able to fly a ship, shooting womprats in Beggars Canyon.
Rey was not. Rey was introduced as a scavenger.

Luke was introduced as a pilot of land and maybe airspeeders, not starships. Where did he get training for starships? He never attended the academy. And the Lars didn’t look to have any starships.

Rey was introduced (admittedly not in the movie, but in the young adult book released prior to the movie, IIRC, that told of her life on Jakku) as having learned to fly several different starships via a flight sim trainer she had salvaged from a wreck. She also helped rebuild a Ghtroc lightly freighter into flyable condition with a couple others who then stole it from her.

And as Scotty says, her first attempt at real flying had a lot of hiccups along the way.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CapricornNoble on 09 January 2020, 12:12:31
Luke was introduced as a pilot of land and maybe airspeeders, not starships. Where did he get training for starships? He never attended the academy. And the Lars didn’t look to have any starships.

https://youtu.be/8ioOYLrlYsk?t=70

His T-16 is physically in the background of numerous shots at the Lars residence in A New Hope:
http://www.loresdelsith.net/ph/bin_hyper/skyhopper2.jpg
https://starwarsataglance.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/larsgarage.png?w=300&h=127

The T-16 airspeeder is basically a civilian atmospheric fighter: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper
Considering that X-Wings are aerospace fighters, the flight characteristics are probably close enough that his knowledge was transferable to the new (to him) airframe.
Luke never pilots anything bigger than a Lambda-class shuttle (physically similar to the T-16) in the entire original trilogy. He's a fighter pilot. Perhaps a prodigy, combined with (amateur) experience, but a fighter pilot, not a starship pilot. He not once piloted anything like even the Millennium Falcon, let alone anything larger generally considered in the "starship" category.

Rey, even if she supposedly had simulator time (not established or even hinted in the movie but I'll accept expanded canon info), had no indications of actual "in seat" time in any flight-capable craft, and then pulls off almost an inverted Pugachev's Cobra her first time flying the Falcon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 09 January 2020, 13:30:03
The maneuver you linked is described as difficult because of difficulties inherent to piloting jet engine fighters with stall speeds and air intakes.

I feel like I shouldn't have to explain why those things are not nearly as difficult in a craft that 1) has a large horizontal cross-section and 2) can hover in place with no difficulty.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Bedwyr on 09 January 2020, 13:34:05
Rey also bounced the Falcon off of no fewer than three large flat surfaces the first time they took off.  This point always confuses me because we're shown in explicit detail that Rey is bad at this but the Force is a fantastic crutch in the form of reflexes and intuition.

Eh. This is one of those points where I simply eat my popcorn. The justifications of flying ability don't map well at all to real life in which one needs at least a couple-hundred hours to get remotely competent. The universe depicts spaceborne vehicles as basically universally accessible or just taught as one learns to ride a bike. With the amount of work I put in to understand and safely pilot a CRJ 200, the difference in accessibility is so large that it stopped bothering me as far back as the original trilogy.

I guess it's the same as a range of responses from any field of expertise whether cops, MDs, nurses, soldiers, or engineers. There's a point where one either needs to ignore those bits or walk away in frustration. I'm more the former.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Talen5000 on 09 January 2020, 14:28:44
Luke was introduced as a pilot of land and maybe airspeeders, not starships. Where did he get training for starships? He never attended the academy. And the Lars didn’t look to have any starships.

It doesn't matter where.

"Han Solo: But who's gonna fly it, kid? You?
Luke Skywalker: You bet I could! I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

establishes that he could fly a starship. That he was going to head to the academy, that he mentioned Beggars Canyon...that he was a pilot was "built into" the character. We don't ask  where Han Solo learned to fly either - we just accept that he did because it is in his character.

Quote
Rey was introduced (admittedly not in the movie, but in the young adult book released prior to the movie

If it isn't in the movie - it didn't happen. There is a major difference between unanswered questions, and plot holes.

Rey was introduced in the movie as a scavenger and there was absolutely zero indication that she had any flight training, formal or informal. Her ability to fly was fairly central to the start of the movie but her character description, as shown, gave us a character who should not have been able to fly. This is one area where TFA was bad - what shoudl ahve been left at the level of unanswered questions to be explored later became fairly important to the plot of TFA with a necessity to be somehow addressed. Reys ability with the Force for example - she should have been shown using it. Not very well, but enough to show that she had gained some knowledge of it. That she was talented, but untrained. The boy at the end of TLJ, grabbing the broom - that should have been Rey at the start of TFA.

Reys introduction as a pilot was another of those moments. Since she wasn't introduced as a pilot, we needed something to explain away her skill and proficiency. Even - as with Luke in ANH - a simple sentence or two. That explanation never occurred.

So yeah - I'm with those who state that elements central to the story shouldn't be divided between mediums. A Mechanic telling Rey that the sims were offline or similar would have been enough. Not perfect...Rey didn't want to leave Jakku so why was she engaged in sims? Better if she had wanted to leave to go search for her parents.

And those "hiccups" had her fly a large ship through a Star Destroyer while more nimble, smaller TIE fighters with trained and experienced crew crashed.

So - no. That an explanation was in a book doesn't mean much.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: worktroll on 09 January 2020, 14:35:50
And those "hiccups" had her fly a large ship through a Star Destroyer while more nimble, smaller TIE fighters with trained and experienced crew crashed.

That much is explicable in context. See also Anakin Skywalker, child - force sensitive. Established in the movie that he was anticipating events slightly into the future - eg. caught the fruit Qui-Gon threw at him - which contributed to his piloting skill.

Doesn't establish that Rey knew how to start a starship, true - but there's well established lore for force-sensitives being capable of doing things normals can't do well.

Besides, "Star Wars" - episode 4, ANH, call it what you will - is indeed a highly entertaining, but basically silly and over-the-top, space opera. No internal consistency needed, none need apply. In "Star Wars", things were what they were, and no-one took it that seriously. Then.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 09 January 2020, 14:40:11
When Finn says “We need a pilot!”, Rey responds with “We’ve got one!”.

Just as much explanation as Luke saying “I’m not such a bad pilot myself.”

If it works for a moisture farmer, it should work for a scavenger.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 January 2020, 15:18:59
To be fair, this is a universe where starships are about as common and maintenance-complex as modern automobiles.  I would assume they're equally simple to fly, considering the Falcon had its computer systems (and a Wookiee co-pilot) while Luke had Artoo supporting the X-wing's systems.  The droid handles the complex stuff and the guy-in-front is just....a guy in front.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: CapricornNoble on 09 January 2020, 19:45:58
The maneuver you linked is described as difficult because of difficulties inherent to piloting jet engine fighters with stall speeds and air intakes.

I feel like I shouldn't have to explain why those things are not nearly as difficult in a craft that 1) has a large horizontal cross-section and 2) can hover in place with no difficulty.

If a powered hover is that easy then why did Rey cut the engines and essentially go "dead stick" to pull off the move? And it's not only being able to operate the craft but having the spatial and tactical awareness to know exactly when to execute the maneuver, but I guess we can chalk that up to "The Force", like so much else.

Also, re: pilot experience

Finn: "How did you do that?"
Rey: "I don't know!"
Finn: "No one trained you?"
Rey: "I've flown some ships but I've never left the planet--"

So apparently she's operated something at some point. *shrug*
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 09 January 2020, 19:59:02
There is a theory floating around that there is a certain piloting droid AI in the Falcon's systems that helps the flesh bags at the controls.  There is even some on screen only support for this theory as well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 09 January 2020, 20:05:35
C3PO was trying to interpret the Falcon's flight computer in Empire.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 09 January 2020, 20:13:12
I imagine the dialogue between Threepio and L3 played out a lot like the implied conversations between him and R2 at his snarkiest.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 January 2020, 21:06:12
I imagine the dialogue between Threepio and L3 played out a lot like the implied conversations between him and R2 at his snarkiest.
And when you realize Lando "Come on, baby, you know I still love you" Calrissian gets his hands on it in RotJ and smashes off the antenna...that really changes that moment!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 10 January 2020, 09:39:54
I think you just described Luke Skywalker (in A New Hope) and Admiral Ackbar (in Return of the Jedi), correct? 

Huh? The differences between the characters are immense, if you'd like I'll PM you with a full breakdown.

As for my point, there was a reasonably detailed explanation for Luke's ability to pilot an X-Wing, and Ackbar's command was a fleet, not the full organisation. Other posters have answered your points adequately, I see no reason to belabor the point.

I will also note that no book in the EU every provided any greater explanation than the movie did, and I never needed to read a book to understand ANH. Good thing too, I read the book, it was horridly written.

I'd be very curious to know, as well, how Luke was living hand to mouth? Or how Admiral Ackbar took over the Rebellion, care to shed some light on this for me?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 January 2020, 11:18:55
OK, let's not get this thread locked again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 10 January 2020, 11:46:53
No real point to continue. I’ve said my peace, you’ve said yours. We’re not going to agree with each other. Why belabor the point?

I enjoyed these movies, even if much of them is rehash of the original trilogy. Many did not. It’s as simple as that.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: garhkal on 10 January 2020, 14:45:29
Hyped up character based on their first appearance who goes out like a goon in their second?  Yup, sounds like Boba Fett to me.

Did they some how try to bring her back in rise of skywalker?

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 January 2020, 15:05:23
Did they some how try to bring her back in rise of skywalker?

Im glad they didn't. That was such a terrible character built up to be this uber awesome person.
Boba Fett didnt have all that build up.....he got all the awesome after the movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 January 2020, 07:28:28
In the most recent episode of Resistance we finally got to see the First Order TIE Bomber.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a8/First-Order-TIE-bomber-SWR-S2E16.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/500?cb=20200114043202)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 14 January 2020, 12:23:32
I heard Resistance wasn't going well.  Did this bomber make it into the films?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 January 2020, 12:35:57
Not the films, but that doesn't make it any less canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 14 January 2020, 20:11:59
I heard Resistance wasn't going well.  Did this bomber make it into the films?

All I rember is the Triangle Shaped TIE fighters. That seem to be just as much fodder as the other TIEs in the other movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 January 2020, 22:25:07
Those would be the TIE Dagger.

There was a TIE designed for Episode IX that never made the screen: the TIE Whisperer.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/3c/TIE_whisper_starfighter.png/revision/latest?cb=20191222230625)

Basically a stealth TIE.

The TIE Kylo Ren uses is not a new Silencer, but a Whisperer modified to an Interceptor configuration.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 15 January 2020, 00:36:18
That explains why Rey's ears weren't bleeding after that jump slash.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 January 2020, 04:52:13
That explains why Rey's ears weren't bleeding after that jump slash.

But is still made that normal TIE sound, and Kylo was flying pretty low. The force protected her ears.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 15 January 2020, 06:33:43
In the most recent episode of Resistance we finally got to see the First Order TIE Bomber.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a8/First-Order-TIE-bomber-SWR-S2E16.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/500?cb=20200114043202)

Yet another thing that makes TLJ's chase scene look so ridiculous. A bomber run would've wiped the Raddus out.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 15 January 2020, 07:46:28
Yet another thing that makes TLJ's chase scene look so ridiculous. A bomber run would've wiped the Raddus out.
I would think RofS had more ridiculous scene of Millennium Falcon being chased though Hyperspace "Skips" in In Space & Atmosphere by Hyperdrive equipped Tie Fighters! 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Insaniac99 on 15 January 2020, 11:32:04
I can defend the hyperspace TIEs, there has been the TIE Defender for decades after all, but I can't defend the hyperspace skipping.  If someone could skip along gravity wells, why that close to them and why do Interdictors work, and why wouldn't everyone try it to avoid the imperial blockades?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 15 January 2020, 15:34:24
I suddenly realized after long (yes, i'm slow.) thinking about WHY they even did it......well.   There Galaxy's Edge, the Disney attraction which has a full scale Millennium Falcon as main attraction there.

I then realize that the ride was literally taken from the scene from the movie (or vise versa).  I suspect (a gut feeling) that's why it was put in the film like that in first place. The Millennium Falcon ride is almost same "chase" they were doing in Rise of Skywalker. Its that or really bad idea they stuck with since first film of this triology, where they did it from atmosphere from Star Killer 1 base thing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 16 January 2020, 06:41:09
I would think RofS had more ridiculous scene of Millennium Falcon being chased though Hyperspace "Skips" in In Space & Atmosphere by Hyperdrive equipped Tie Fighters!

Agreed. That's equally ridiculous, along with the unnecessary "heavy bombers" in the opening battle of TLJ.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 17 January 2020, 04:58:09
The bombers were not the problem in the TLJ. The problem is that fact that they dropped bombs on the ship....vs other ways of delivering the payload.  The bomber was kinda designed off of a B-17...hell it was even called the StarFrotress SF-17. The fact that a bomber will always get thru...at least one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 17 January 2020, 07:04:33
I was not fan of the space bomber, as cool of name they gave them. It seemed to me like the director was trying invoke scene (that ignores physics) with multiple people doing stuff with cool visual effects as these "slow" space bombers needed bomb Dreadnought. 

Only up take i had from that movie was it introduced a lot new vehicle & ships to the universe.  Which is sad, given how not so good the film's story was overall.  I was particularly mad how they built up new characters just to bump them off at end of it. They would been good universe building characters in the next film to replace the legacy characters they happen kill off in the same movie.

I think they were trying please fans bit too much in this last film. How many flash backs to a 40 year old film trilogy did they need to keep audience interested in the film?

Supposedly there going to be another movie in 2022, but there not much info on it.  I hope they take their time writing it up better.  The live-action television show seems better put together, has time in-rich it's characters.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 17 January 2020, 07:15:12
The problem is that fact that they dropped bombs on the ship....vs other ways of delivering the payload.

Have you not seen Empire Strikes Back?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 17 January 2020, 07:35:14
Have you not seen Empire Strikes Back?
I think the bombs used in Empire was done so they were firing downward verse gravity pulling bombs down from a vehicle onto another ship.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 17 January 2020, 08:04:52
I think the bombs used in Empire was done so they were firing downward verse gravity pulling bombs down from a vehicle onto another ship.

Nope, they were dropped.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 17 January 2020, 08:21:33
The bombers were unnecessary. Their slow speed and massive size made them vulnerable to an already overwhelming enemy fleet. Why Rian Johnson chose to give us a WWII bombing run repeat in space vs a few squadrons of B-Wings with warhead launchers that don't need dedicated bombardiers that have to manually prime the bombs in bays and with far better agility, is confusing and dumb. They even drop what seems to be tons of unguided packed thermal detonators when proton torpedos existed right from the first movie, along with concussion missiles, heavy bombs and heavy rockets.

Rose's sister wouldn't have needed to die an unnecessary death.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 17 January 2020, 09:09:00
The bombers were unnecessary. Their slow speed and massive size made them vulnerable to an already overwhelming enemy fleet. Why Rian Johnson chose to give us a WWII bombing run repeat in space vs a few squadrons of B-Wings with warhead launchers that don't need dedicated bombardiers that have to manually prime the bombs in bays and with far better agility, is confusing and dumb. They even drop what seems to be tons of unguided packed thermal detonators when proton torpedos existed right from the first movie, along with concussion missiles, heavy bombs and heavy rockets.

Rose's sister wouldn't have needed to die an unnecessary death.

That was the point of the scene though, showing that Poe was willing to allow wholesale death among the Resistance provided they could damage the First Order. It also, unintentionally I think, showed a major weakness of having your operational commander looking over your shoulder, telling the soldiers what they can and cannot shoot.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 17 January 2020, 11:29:00
(that ignores physics)

This is not a thing that they do, at least no more than anything else in the Star Wars universe. The scene literally establishes the ship having internal gravity as a plot point. The bombs would drop just as readily as the bombardier and the detonator did. when they fell to the bottom of the bomb bay.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 17 January 2020, 11:38:49
This is not a thing that they do, at least no more than anything else in the Star Wars universe. The scene literally establishes the ship having internal gravity as a plot point. The bombs would drop just as readily as the bombardier and the detonator did. when they fell to the bottom of the bomb bay.

True, & when the bombs left the artificial gravity envelope of the bomber, they'd continue along at the same velocity they obtained dropping from the bomb bay. For that matter, the gravity at the bottom of the bomb bay could be sufficiently stronger than the rest of the craft to impart extra velocity when leaving the bay. As for why would they do this, IMHO for the same reason F-16s today have a bomb impact calculator on the HUD. Sometimes you don't have, or don't want to use, smart weapons for your job.

That being said, I think a WWII analog of a torpedo bomber would have been more cinematically interesting. Call it a ST-5, 3 person crew (1 pilot, 2 gunners), & replay a sort of "Attack at Midway" type thing, & it might have been a bit more exciting...

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fallen_Raven on 17 January 2020, 11:43:01
Why Rian Johnson chose to give us a WWII bombing run repeat in space

Because dogfights from space planes that need to bank and roll to walk gunfire on a target is an accurate representation of physics?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 17 January 2020, 12:17:00
Because dogfights from space planes that need to bank and roll to walk gunfire on a target is an accurate representation of physics?

Plus the fact that Star Wars, from its first movie, has duplicated WW2 style aircraft combat/attacks in its onscreen depictions of starfighter usage?

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Lorcan Nagle on 17 January 2020, 13:57:15
Plus the fact that Star Wars, from its first movie, has duplicated WW2 style aircraft combat/attacks in its onscreen depictions of starfighter usage?

Ruger

To the point that George Lucas used dogfight footage from WWII movies as temp footage in early edits while he was waiting for the effects shots to be ready.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 January 2020, 17:23:35
That being said, I think a WWII analog of a torpedo bomber would have been more cinematically interesting. Call it a ST-5, 3 person crew (1 pilot, 2 gunners), & replay a sort of "Attack at Midway" type thing, & it might have been a bit more exciting...
So, Y-wings.  "Red leader, this is Gold leader, we're starting our attack run now."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2020, 00:35:49
Because dogfights from space planes that need to bank and roll to walk gunfire on a target is an accurate representation of physics?

That's how their computers work. It's been there since the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games.

As for bombs, proton torpedos have better targeting velocities and exist, and smaller, nimbler B-Wings exist, so using heavy bombers is simply inviting a massacre of the squadron from flak that can target them more easily, which predictably happened. This is probably why JJ Abrams gave them B-Wings in RoS to retcon one of the ridiculous things in TLJ. That B-Wing was quickly taken down, but that's to be expected from the number of enemy forces at Exegol.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: guardiandashi on 18 January 2020, 19:28:46
the only "real" justification for the bombers IMO was if they could put a concentrated "punch" of damage that nothing short of a capital ship could match.

My thought is that Y-Wings while horribly obsolete are in most cases more practical in that even their heavy "bombs" mean they don't have to get as close to the capital ship to deliver their payload.  The fact that Poe went in with his X-wing and took out all the turrets meant that the bombers had a "mostly" unopposed attack run, until the fighters launched. where it became problematic is that the "bombers" they used were clearly intended as atmospheric attack craft, and appear to suffer really badly when used in a space environment .
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 18 January 2020, 19:45:53
I feel like the whole point of the scene was that the bombers were supposed to be a desperation maneuver, and it was very clear that the instant that maneuver wasn't needed the correct answer would have been to get away, like Leia ordered them to.

That's why I don't get the complaints about Admiral Holdo not telling Poe their plan. If anything the unrealistic part of their whole interaction was that Poe wasn't in a cell for ignoring his orders and getting a whole lot of people killed for no tactical advantage.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 18 January 2020, 20:30:48
Call me really wishes that maybe some of the republic's ships at showing up in one of the film.
See so crazy none of the could not had been spared that survived to be able go and help fight the Order.

EDIT: Sorry, i was dedicating to my phone when posted this. I missed auto-correct botched.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 18 January 2020, 20:35:48
I didn't think I was that tired, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what you're trying to say.  Autocorrect mangled it beyond all comprehension for me...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 18 January 2020, 21:00:41
the only "real" justification for the bombers IMO was if they could put a concentrated "punch" of damage that nothing short of a capital ship could match.

ONE bomber took out a 7000+ meter long dreadnought in one bombing run. They can carry over 1000 proton bombs each.

I’d say they meet your requirement.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2020, 22:27:08
Call me really wishes that maybe some of the republics sleep at showing up in one of the film.
See so crazy none of the cpuld not had been spare that remained help fight the Order.

Yes. The sequels suffer from their narrow focus on just the Resistance vs First Order to the exclusion of everything else, even the New Republic fleets.

ONE bomber took out a 7000+ meter long dreadnought in one bombing run. They can carry over 1000 proton bombs each.

I’d say they meet your requirement.

Ruger

For those 8 heavy bombers with their extreme vulnerability to flak/interceptors, larger crew requirement/greater maintenance needs/bigger logistical tail, under 30-year veteran commanders like Leia and Ackbar(who in the original EU was responsible for the B-Wing project for this very lack in the Rebel fleet capability), you could get an equivalent 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings. New EU B-Wings can even drop bombs in addition to their 2 proton torpedo launchers.

24-36 B-Wings that attacked that single dreadnought from multiple vectors after Poe had knocked out their AA turrets and their escorts dealt with enemy interceptors would've had a much higher survival rate while accomplishing the same objective.

Smaller fighters are superior to big fighters due to maneuverability and cost. This has been proven since at least World War II, where heavy twin-engine fighters kept losing to single-engine light fighters. With the technology level of Star Wars, B-Wings are more practical than the heavy bombers.

Avoiding this kind of bomber losses was also why the Brits switched to night bombing in WWII due to conserving a small precious bomber force i.e. you don't charge openly into the enemy in full visibility like in TLJ.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 18 January 2020, 23:24:02
For those 8 heavy bombers with their extreme vulnerability to flak/interceptors, larger crew requirement/greater maintenance needs/bigger logistical tail, under 30-year veteran commanders like Leia and Ackbar(who in the original EU was responsible for the B-Wing project for this very lack in the Rebel fleet capability), you could get an equivalent 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings.

[Citation needed]
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 18 January 2020, 23:28:06
This way lies why we can't have nice Star Wars threads on these forums.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 18 January 2020, 23:45:42
I'm assuming we didn't see B-Wings because the Resistance wasn't able to get their hands on any.

At least not in the 2-3 squadrons worth that is mentioned as an alternative to the Bombers.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 19 January 2020, 00:10:54
I was kinda confused how these Starfortress bombers were even effective in first place. Unless they had to go slow (or they appear to go slow in conventional/non-hyperspace way) hit the Dreadnought.

Kinda funny, the Dreadnought was arguably brand new design, yet the Sith were able drag out antique Star Destroyers with retro-fitted planetary guns that were superior.  Those retrofitted gun could rival anything but a Death Star/Star Killer Base. Making Dreadnought effectively obsolete by the old SDs. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 January 2020, 00:35:45
The only thing I can think of to explain that is that the DS Plans/Kyber Laser plans were not in possession of the Imperial Remnants that escaped to wherever they went.

But Palpatine had possession of them on his little Sith Vacation world.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: KayEmm on 19 January 2020, 01:54:33
Kinda funny, the Dreadnought was arguably brand new design, yet the Sith were able drag out antique Star Destroyers with retro-fitted planetary guns that were superior.  Those retrofitted gun could rival anything but a Death Star/Star Killer Base. Making Dreadnought effectively obsolete by the old SDs.

The Final Order Star Destroyers were a totally new class that superficially resembles the old Imperial II class but is about 50% larger. The cannons are integral to the design.

More random thoughts:

Given the way that Red Lightsabres now work, I wonder if the fractured crystal in Kylo Ren's sabre is the one he had when he was a Jedi?

Also the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Anthony Daniels was impro-ing his performance throughout the film and saying whatever came to his mind. And I loved it.

(Also I just saw it for the third time. I don't have a problem!)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 January 2020, 02:35:40

Given the way that Red Lightsabres now work, I wonder if the fractured crystal in Kylo Ren's sabre is the one he had when he was a Jedi?


What are you talking about here?

You lost me.   Is there some change to lightsabers now?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: KayEmm on 19 January 2020, 03:12:09
What are you talking about here?

You lost me.   Is there some change to lightsabers now?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Bleeding (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Bleeding)

tl;dr - Red Kyber crystals do not occur naturally. Rather, they come from a dark-side force user "bleeding" the crystal and bending it to their will through ritual. It makes the red sabre a lot more impactful then just suggesting that the person using it is bad.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 January 2020, 13:34:20
Ah, I see.

Other than them not occurring naturally, I thought that was always the case.

I guess that info is all that I have known.

I thought they came with a color like any gem but a force user could manipulate that as part of making the light saber.

Sith focus DS Force on them to make them red.

Ahsoka drained hers to be white.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 19 January 2020, 19:49:30
All the ships in RoS were just reused form other movies. It's a JJ staple just using things from his other idea....use things from things before. Very sad should of had something new and scary for the Sith.

I don't understand why the ships has to be in the ocean and hidden. Nobody could figure out how to get to Exegool so why need to hide them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 January 2020, 23:49:33
Nothing about that planet made sense really.

What were those monkey faced creatures?

Why were the ships submerged?

Why did they need a single sensor tower?

Who was piloting them?

How was it that some other FO SD could replace said sensor tower?

How did the Emperor get to that planet?

Was that body his original ROTJ body?

Was he a clone?

Since when can the force teleport anything?

Etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 20 January 2020, 04:59:19
Since when can the force teleport anything?

For a while now. Since at least the introduction of the Aing-Tii in the old EU.

Edit: apparently for at least 20+ years as the power was used in Timothy Zahn’s novel Vision of the Future back in 1998.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 20 January 2020, 07:47:50
[Citation needed]

An SF-17 has a crew of 5 vs B-Wing only needing a pilot. 8 heavy bombers were in TLJ, that makes 40 irreplaceable dead crew. If resources were devoted to B-Wings, that's at least 24-36 or 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings. The enemy was a single capital ship, meaning multi-vector attacks by small starfighters would be a far better option than Rian Johnson depicting space fighting like 2-D Earth airplanes bombing a ship.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 20 January 2020, 07:52:00
I'm assuming we didn't see B-Wings because the Resistance wasn't able to get their hands on any.

At least not in the 2-3 squadrons worth that is mentioned as an alternative to the Bombers.

It's ironic that the movies depict the Resistance as unable to even get cheap fighters in meaningful amounts while their enemies can spam capital ships at will.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 20 January 2020, 07:56:26
It's ironic that the movies depict the Resistance as unable to even get cheap fighters in meaningful amounts while their enemies can spam capital ships at will.

The First Order has their own shipyards thanks to Palpatine. The Resistance has to scrounge what they can find. The Fortress bombers were on the open market for conversion to civilian purposes (mining, cargo carriers, etc.). B-Wings, not so much.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 20 January 2020, 08:51:49
An SF-17 has a crew of 5 vs B-Wing only needing a pilot. 8 heavy bombers were in TLJ, that makes 40 irreplaceable dead crew. If resources were devoted to B-Wings, that's at least 24-36 or 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings. The enemy was a single capital ship, meaning multi-vector attacks by small starfighters would be a far better option than Rian Johnson depicting space fighting like 2-D Earth airplanes bombing a ship.

I feel like treating literally only the crew on a 1:1 basis the limiting factor is a giant pile of additional [citation needed], because it assumes dozens of facts not in evidence.  First and foremost: that there are even that many B-Wings in existence at that moment, being a 30 year old fighter-bomber from a previous war and government.

It's seriously like seeing a tank company in some planetary militia in the late-Jihad, and declaring that it would make way more sense for the militia to be fielding a battalion of Mad Cats for the same crew requirements.  Obviously.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 20 January 2020, 11:08:25
Nothing about that planet made sense really.

What were those monkey faced creatures?

Why were the ships submerged?

Why did they need a single sensor tower?

Who was piloting them?

How was it that some other FO SD could replace said sensor tower?

How did the Emperor get to that planet?

Was that body his original ROTJ body?

Was he a clone?

Since when can the force teleport anything?

Etc etc etc.

Maybe there's a book we need to read...   :toofunny:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 21 January 2020, 09:01:56
The First Order has their own shipyards thanks to Palpatine. The Resistance has to scrounge what they can find. The Fortress bombers were on the open market for conversion to civilian purposes (mining, cargo carriers, etc.). B-Wings, not so much.

Ruger

That's right. However, all FO and Sith capital ships (Resurgent-, Mega-, Mandator-IV-, Xyston-classes) have a single point of origin, Kuat-Entralla Engineering(with shipyards in Exegol and Unknown Regions), a subsidiary of KDY, whose primary and most productive yards are at Kuat, a New Republic planet. Apparently the Resistance can't even contract Kuat for their own capital ships ::) Or Mon Calamari, Corellia, Sullust or Fondor. Or even use the hidden Rebel yards at Telaris. It's as if the Resistance has no logisticians to oversee procurement and supply on a total war footing.

For B-Wings, since Leia used her money to fund the Resistance, she could easily contract Slayn & Korpil for a new secret production run. The FO and Sith could contract KDY for Star Destroyers and Dreadnoughts under everyone's noses. Secret starfighter squadrons would be child's play.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 21 January 2020, 09:09:02
I feel like treating literally only the crew on a 1:1 basis the limiting factor is a giant pile of additional [citation needed], because it assumes dozens of facts not in evidence.  First and foremost: that there are even that many B-Wings in existence at that moment, being a 30 year old fighter-bomber from a previous war and government.

It's seriously like seeing a tank company in some planetary militia in the late-Jihad, and declaring that it would make way more sense for the militia to be fielding a battalion of Mad Cats for the same crew requirements.  Obviously.

Uh, no. A better BattleTech analogy would be advocating for Heavy Mechs over Superheavy Mechs. To cite The Rebel Files and Poe Dameron, StarFortresses are better bombers than B-Wings. However, their usage in TLJ is far inferior to the Rebel usage of B-Wings, where half a squadron of them could be hyperspace raiders that concentrated on single Star Destroyers and promptly knocked the SD out before jumping out again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 21 January 2020, 19:42:53
Starfortress just plain bad idea, without thinking about what been used or how universe works.

Ships move fast, fighters faster than capital ships.  Those overized bombers were way too slow to work on anyone other than stationary targets or freighters with broken hyperdrives.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 January 2020, 22:53:17
Those overized bombers were way too slow to work on anyone other than stationary targets or freighters with broken hyperdrives.

Or capital ships apparently.   :D
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Scotty on 22 January 2020, 00:30:09
It's as if the Resistance has no logisticians to oversee procurement and supply on a total war footing.

It's almost as if the New Republic wasn't willing to commit to action against the First Order.  You know, that part of the opening crawl of The Force Awakens when we're explicitly told exactly that?  What exactly do you expect three squadrons of snubfighters, a corvette, two frigates, and a cruiser to accomplish on 'total war footing'?

For B-Wings, since Leia used her money to fund the Resistance, she could easily contract Slayn & Korpil for a new secret production run. The FO and Sith could contract KDY for Star Destroyers and Dreadnoughts under everyone's noses. Secret starfighter squadrons would be child's play.

[Citation needed]

I really don't want to be a dick about it, but literally nothing you've mentioned is anything actually supported by anything in Star Wars, and is instead universally in the vein of "I think it could work this way, therefore it must work this way" which is, to be blunt, not correct.

Prove it.  Don't rely on 'should' and 'probably'.  Point to the places in the text or movie that support your claim.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 22 January 2020, 04:04:05
It's almost as if the New Republic wasn't willing to commit to action against the First Order.  You know, that part of the opening crawl of The Force Awakens when we're explicitly told exactly that?  What exactly do you expect three squadrons of snubfighters, a corvette, two frigates, and a cruiser to accomplish on 'total war footing'?

It really depends on how reasonable you want to be about it. Assuming procurement is a multi-year cycle, being unwilling to commit to action against an opponent doesn't mean either refusing to build up your forces to oppose them should the decision be taken out of your hands, nor allowing companies under your jurisdiction to build weapons for them.

The best real world analogue is the Cold War, do you think France would have happily built weapons for the Soviet Union? Or vice versa? No, they wouldn't, and didn't. None of the potential combatants in the Cold War wanted to commit to overt war against the adversary, they would actively avoid doing so, doesn't mean any of them were embarking on disarmament programs.

While Star Wars doesn't happen in the real world, the Republic would be literally too stupid to survive if it denied even the possibility for war against the First Order, a descendant of the order the Republic deposed. That sort of stupidity was previously the province of the EU, maybe that's another thing Disney took from it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 22 January 2020, 05:03:52
It really depends on how reasonable you want to be about it. Assuming procurement is a multi-year cycle, being unwilling to commit to action against an opponent doesn't mean either refusing to build up your forces to oppose them should the decision be taken out of your hands, nor allowing companies under your jurisdiction to build weapons for them.

The best real world analogue is the Cold War, do you think France would have happily built weapons for the Soviet Union? Or vice versa? No, they wouldn't, and didn't. None of the potential combatants in the Cold War wanted to commit to overt war against the adversary, they would actively avoid doing so, doesn't mean any of them were embarking on disarmament programs.

While Star Wars doesn't happen in the real world, the Republic would be literally too stupid to survive if it denied even the possibility for war against the First Order, a descendant of the order the Republic deposed. That sort of stupidity was previously the province of the EU, maybe that's another thing Disney took from it.

It is. The New Republic in the new canon has been taking the “peace at costs” kool-aid and doing their best imitation of an ostrich with its head in the sand when it comes to military armaments and the First Order. They have been actively disarming (this is where most of the Resistance’s few ships have come from, especially the Raddus), declaring that the First Order is no threat to the galaxy.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Bosefius on 22 January 2020, 05:20:38
***MOD NOTICE

THE CONVERSATION ABOUT BOMBERS IS OVER. THIS THREAD HAD BEEN QUIET UNTIL THIS TOPIC BECAME HEATED, SO, AFTER SOME DISCUSSION, WE'RE REMOVING THE TOPIC.

THANK YOU

Original:
We've been patient but this conversation needs to take a step back, people are starting to tip toe the line.

Let's not bring warnings into this, Luke would be disappointed.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 January 2020, 07:57:11
When the movie comes to home video this spring and we're all scouring the final battle (someone already took a cellphone shot in the theater of a pair of Naboo N1s), be on the lookout for these: the Fireball, Jarek Yeager’s racer, and Torra Doza’s ship. ILM created photo-real versions of these vessels to populate the movie’s space battle, which are shown below
.
(https://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/fireball-ilm.jpg)

(https://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/jarek-yeagar-racer-ilm.jpg)

(https://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/torra-doza-racer-ilm-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 January 2020, 18:10:51
(https://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/torra-doza-racer-ilm-1.jpg)
Someone is a Porsche fan with exquisite taste.  Ferrari 512S is still the more beautiful machine, though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Luciora on 29 January 2020, 00:30:07
That first fighter reminds me alot of the Harlock Space Wolf fighter.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 29 January 2020, 07:14:12
That first fighter reminds me alot of the Harlock Space Wolf fighter.

It’s supposed to be a cross between a X-Wing and a F4U Corsair.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Luciora on 29 January 2020, 08:17:27
(https://web.ipmsusa3.org/sites/default/files/reviews/space-wolf-sw-190/space_wolf_-_02.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ActionButler on 29 January 2020, 08:50:00
Someone is a Porsche fan with exquisite taste.  Ferrari 512S is still the more beautiful machine, though.

I was going to say that it looks like an homage to the Ford GT with those colors.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 29 January 2020, 10:13:00
(https://web.ipmsusa3.org/sites/default/files/reviews/space-wolf-sw-190/space_wolf_-_02.jpg)
That's a good catch.   Its been too long since i saw Captain Harlock series.
I wonder if fighter consequence it looks like one these older planes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 January 2020, 10:35:21
Of all the Ace's ships, I like Griff's TIE based one the best:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/27/Black_Ace.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180915032021)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 January 2020, 11:09:21
I was going to say that it looks like an homage to the Ford GT with those colors.
Yeah, it's definitely the classic Gulf Oil colors, but the shape is pure 917.  I approve!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Nightlord01 on 30 January 2020, 07:17:50
It’s supposed to be a cross between a X-Wing and a F4U Corsair.

Ruger

I can definitely see it. Interesting design decision.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Weirdo on 30 January 2020, 17:25:00
And here I thought I'd subverted the system by creating a voting precinct numbered 1701. Much to learn, have I...

(You'll want to enlarge it.)
(https://i.imgur.com/0jGHF7q.png)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 31 January 2020, 19:24:35
Check this out! Test footage for Star Wars: Underworld! (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpTOwXVu8g&feature=youtu.be)

This was pretty cool. Too bad they didn't make it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 February 2020, 23:35:18
Check this out! Test footage for Star Wars: Underworld! (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpTOwXVu8g&feature=youtu.be)

This was pretty cool. Too bad they didn't make it.
I want more now
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 February 2020, 02:57:16
And here I thought I'd subverted the system by creating a voting precinct numbered 1701. Much to learn, have I...

(You'll want to enlarge it.)
(https://i.imgur.com/0jGHF7q.png)
Amateur.  If you're gonna subvert things, subvert things to the point you're strongly considering committing crimes and steal street signs.  I damn near did when I left Vegas.

I didn't, of course, but still.  The temptation was strong with this one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 February 2020, 15:20:00
https://youtu.be/Z9d1bkRC0Hs (https://youtu.be/Z9d1bkRC0Hs)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 February 2020, 22:22:17
New episode of The Clone Wars on Friday!   :beer:

https://youtu.be/74KX0sQ2I4E (https://youtu.be/74KX0sQ2I4E)

Though we saw the Bad Batch story reels on the official site years ago, I'm still excited to see them in finished form.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Fat Guy on 25 February 2020, 09:10:51
High Republic announcement trailer: https://youtu.be/xCat5fXRyyU (https://youtu.be/xCat5fXRyyU)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 25 February 2020, 11:21:48
Looks like more a comic book & novel effort than a actual effort make new television show/film/comic book series.  Given it's set 400 years in the past verse the KOTOR is a 1000 years in the past.  Hard to say if there going bigger shake up franchise's history.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 25 February 2020, 12:47:26
Looks like more a comic book & novel effort than a actual effort make new television show/film/comic book series.  Given it's set 400 years in the past verse the KOTOR is a 1000 years in the past.  Hard to say if there going bigger shake up franchise's history.

Definitely a novel line of at least young adult and older novels and comics. Wookieepedia has entries for a few, mostly set in 232 BBY, during which, an event called “The Great Disaster” knocks ships out of hyperspace throughout the galaxy.

At least two young adult novels, one regular hardcover novel and two comic series (one by Marvel, the other by IDW) have apparently been announced.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Tymers Realm on 25 February 2020, 12:52:37
Though I would imagine there's gonna be additional stuff in the mix. Considering Viz Media is one of the partners in this. So we could see tie-in Manga or some animated tie-ins as well...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Luciora on 25 February 2020, 12:57:27
Just no.   It's bad enough to see a japanese take of a western character at times, but a westerners take on a Japanese take of a western character is just about as bad as those foreign dubs to subs from totally different culture.

Though I would imagine there's gonna be additional stuff in the mix. Considering Viz Media is one of the partners in this. So we could see tie-in Manga or some animated tie-ins as well...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 26 February 2020, 07:31:48
Looks like more a comic book & novel effort than a actual effort make new television show/film/comic book series.  Given it's set 400 years in the past verse the KOTOR is a 1000 years in the past.  Hard to say if there going bigger shake up franchise's history.

Correct me if i'm wrong sir, but isn't KOTOR 4000 years in the past?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Garrand on 26 February 2020, 08:46:09
The era of Darth Bane was 1000 years in the past. Bane is canon, but I don't know how much of his story is still canon (i.e. the Sith Empire, etc). I don't know how much of KotoR is canon for that matter either...

Damon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 26 February 2020, 12:07:44
Just no.   It's bad enough to see a japanese take of a western character at times, but a westerners take on a Japanese take of a western character is just about as bad as those foreign dubs to subs from totally different culture.
Star Wars: Lost Stars was manga, i can tell you it was dead on good and stuck with guide lines of Star Wars. Perhaps better than the later 3 films we just got.  It was side story running at same time as the original films. It was good.   No Japanese cultural clashing i could see.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 26 February 2020, 12:09:34
The era of Darth Bane was 1000 years in the past. Bane is canon, but I don't know how much of his story is still canon (i.e. the Sith Empire, etc). I don't know how much of KotoR is canon for that matter either...

Damon.

I don't think Disney/LucasArts knows yet either.  Come to think of it, the employees that survived the various transitions must be more than a little stressed about this.  It's literally their job to know all of this and then poof - none of it's valid anymore.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: marauder648 on 26 February 2020, 12:16:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GAvcrYKxu4

So...artfully done.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: gyedid on 02 May 2020, 15:33:08
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20200430-star-wars-why-the-empire-strikes-back-is-overrated (http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20200430-star-wars-why-the-empire-strikes-back-is-overrated)

Are feelings like this about TESB actually fairly common throughout SW fandom?

Cheers,

Gabe
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 02 May 2020, 16:29:18
Interesting article.

I don't really agree with it, but, he's not entirely wrong either.

And I've never noticed the "same 6 scenes/plot points" rearranged from SW to ESB till he pointed it out.

You do notice it in Force Awakens for sure.  But I hadn't seen it in ESB till now.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 02 May 2020, 16:42:06
I think it does raise a lot of good points when one takes off the nostalgia goggles.

It doesn't make it a bad movie exactly and it isn't hard to justify why destroying the Death Star doesn't end the threat of the Empire so there are things that are not entirely accurate in the article.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Cache on 02 May 2020, 17:12:20
I'm in it for the Tauntauns and AT-AT's. Period.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 02 May 2020, 17:37:47
*shrug*

He’s entitled to his opinions just as I’m entitled to disagree with almost all of them.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Sabelkatten on 03 May 2020, 03:48:57
The thing I question the most is his comment about the Emperor and the Force. In-universe, does anyone other than Vader know that Palpatine is a Force user? WEG's Star Wars Sourcebook makes a point of that being unknown (wondering how he can make Vader bow down to him).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 03 May 2020, 10:41:06
Palpatine has some select advisors who are strong with the Dark Side.  And the Inqisitorium.  And depending which continuity you follow, the Hands as well.  At some points the number is so high it stretches the imagination a bit that it's widely unknown.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 03 May 2020, 10:52:03
Still for someone watching the films and the films alone it is pretty clearly controlled knowledge kept to as few people as possible.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Kentares on 03 May 2020, 11:09:14
Palpatine has some select advisors who are strong with the Dark Side.  And the Inqisitorium.  And depending which continuity you follow, the Hands as well.  At some points the number is so high it stretches the imagination a bit that it's widely unknown.

Indeed that is the case (talking about WEG RPG) but I think that not even most of the ranked officers in the Empire knew... and ISB helped to control the truth spreading false rumours among other things (I remember reading an adventure about that but cant remember if it was made by WEG or some other source like the Challenge Magazine).

Of course all of that should be void with the new canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 03 May 2020, 12:07:00
Palpatine has some select advisors who are strong with the Dark Side.  And the Inqisitorium.  And depending which continuity you follow, the Hands as well.  At some points the number is so high it stretches the imagination a bit that it's widely unknown.

A couple dozen or so (serious) Force users in a galaxy (max) with population numbers in the hundreds of trillions?

Yeah, I can buy that it’s widely unknown/disbelieved, or just not taken seriously.

How many things have become fodder for disbelievers in modern times that happened just a few decades ago?

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Cannonshop on 03 May 2020, 13:00:37
A couple dozen or so (serious) Force users in a galaxy (max) with population numbers in the hundreds of trillions?

Yeah, I can buy that it’s widely unknown/disbelieved, or just not taken seriously.

How many things have become fodder for disbelievers in modern times that happened just a few decades ago?

Ruger

too many to count, honestly.  some of it is due to disinformation, some can be chalked to plausible alternate explanations, some can be chalked down to just popular misconception or even that great standby, self-delusion.

Palpatine keeping his force sensitivity a secret? Not implausible at all-there are far too many 'more reasonable' explanations to the average person-who-never-saw-one out there.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Hellraiser on 03 May 2020, 13:23:08
The thing I question the most is his comment about the Emperor and the Force. In-universe, does anyone other than Vader know that Palpatine is a Force user? WEG's Star Wars Sourcebook makes a point of that being unknown (wondering how he can make Vader bow down to him).

I heard the book about Tarkin has his inner thoughts shown to believe the Emperor is a Sith & that Vader is Anakin.

But Tarkin knew them both in the Clone Wars so has a closer knowledge than most.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Sabelkatten on 03 May 2020, 15:00:04
You know, if anything, I'd say the prequels ruined the Jedi...

Think about it - in the original trilogy we see (IIRC) a total of three raw displays of power, two of them by the pair that wiped the floor with the whole order (Luke leaping out of the freezer i ESB, Vader stopping the blaster bolt in ESB, Palpatine's force lighting in RotJ).

In the prequels Jedi are throwing stuff left and right. Sure, most people will still not have seen it directly, but it's hard to imagine there not being at least some cameras around during the clone wars. People would have watched vidcasts. Even with the Empire trying to suppress the knowledge it would have been hard to turn it into a "hooky religion" in just a decade.

If the Jedi had been more like Obi-wan in ANH throughout everything would have made a lot more sense. :(
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 03 May 2020, 15:12:52
You know, if anything, I'd say the prequels ruined the Jedi...

Think about it - in the original trilogy we see (IIRC) a total of three raw displays of power, two of them by the pair that wiped the floor with the whole order (Luke leaping out of the freezer i ESB, Vader stopping the blaster bolt in ESB, Palpatine's force lighting in RotJ).

In the prequels Jedi are throwing stuff left and right. Sure, most people will still not have seen it directly, but it's hard to imagine there not being at least some cameras around during the clone wars. People would have watched vidcasts. Even with the Empire trying to suppress the knowledge it would have been hard to turn it into a "hooky religion" in just a decade.

If the Jedi had been more like Obi-wan in ANH throughout everything would have made a lot more sense. :(

Others you didn’t list:

Vader’s Force choke.

At least minor mind reading/empathy by both the Emperor and Vader.

Luke being able to deflect the remote’s blaster bolts and the bolts from Jabba’s Guards.

Luke’s leap from the plank onto Jabba’s sail barge.

Luke telekinetically grabs the blaster from one of Jabba’s guards.

Luke using Force Astrogation to pilot his X-Wing from Hoth to Dagobah.

Luke reaching out telepathically to Leia.

As to having video, remember when I asked how many things in just the past century people have now started denouncing as faked fabrications? Most of them have photo/video verification that they took place.

People still try to claim they are fake.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: dgorsman on 03 May 2020, 15:45:46
It's not the Emperor, but yeah.  Vader force choking multiple officers, including Admiral Ozzel in front of his own command staff, from a completely different ship, is something that would spread through the ranks ISB or no.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Sabelkatten on 03 May 2020, 16:02:02
Good points. It was way too long since I saw the movies... ::)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 May 2020, 18:54:21
Others you didn’t list:

Vader’s Force choke.
Or so go with the adult swim answer... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8)

Quote
At least minor mind reading/empathy by both the Emperor and Vader.
Lucky guesses?

Quote
Luke being able to deflect the remote’s blaster bolts and the bolts from Jabba’s Guards.

Luke’s leap from the plank onto Jabba’s sail barge.
Luke is lucky and they are poor shots and is an acrobat

Quote
Luke telekinetically grabs the blaster from one of Jabba’s guards.
Luke quick, the guard clumsy

Quote
Luke using Force Astrogation to pilot his X-Wing from Hoth to Dagobah.
does anyone know but Luke and R2?

Quote
Luke reaching out telepathically to Leia.
Well laugh twins have been able to do that..  we just didn't know it then

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Daryk on 03 May 2020, 18:57:55
That adult swim answer is HILARIOUS!  ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 03 May 2020, 19:07:25
Or so go with the adult swim answer... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8)
Lucky guesses?
Luke is lucky and they are poor shots and is an acrobat
Luke quick, the guard clumsy
does anyone know but Luke and R2?
Well laugh twins have been able to do that..  we just didn't know it then

I’ll admit, the Adult Swim answer is quite funny.

As to “Luke quick, the guard clumsy”, I feel I should point out that the gun leaped from the guard’s holster to Luke’s hand from a couple feet away.

Unless Luke is just so fast we didn’t see him run the round trip. Which invites another possible power.

 :D

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 03 May 2020, 20:06:51
Any right thinking imperial citizen knows not to take the testimony of criminals seriously.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 May 2020, 21:02:51
I’ll admit, the Adult Swim answer is quite funny.
thank you...

Quote
As to “Luke quick, the guard clumsy”, I feel I should point out that the gun leaped from the guard’s holster to Luke’s hand from a couple feet away.
also not the 1st time a guard been paid off to help someone get a gun when they should not have
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: I am Belch II on 04 May 2020, 04:42:42
HAPPY STAR WARS DAY TODAY!!!!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 04 May 2020, 11:53:15
Watched the last episode, the actual last episode, of The Clone Wars.

I have to admit I was a bit unsatisfied by it and it is due entirely to prequelitis.

Thanks to Rebels and the news about season 2 of the Mandalorian we've known Asohka and Rex would make it through fine.  That unfortunately really ruins the tension they were trying for.

So yeah I was kind of hoping they'd go a bit more into how she managed to hide successfully because that part of her story we don't know.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 04 May 2020, 12:32:05
Watched the last episode, the actual last episode, of The Clone Wars.

I have to admit I was a bit unsatisfied by it and it is due entirely to prequelitis.

Thanks to Rebels and the news about season 2 of the Mandalorian we've known Asohka and Rex would make it through fine.  That unfortunately really ruins the tension they were trying for.

So yeah I was kind of hoping they'd go a bit more into how she managed to hide successfully because that part of her story we don't know.

Actually, we do know a lot of how she did it from the novel Ahsoka.

As to the series finale, I found it satisfying because the series was almost always about just two characters in the end: Ahsoka and Rex.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 04 May 2020, 12:43:11
Type I can I swear.

Still I will echo the sentiment that forcing people to go to outside media is not ideal.

Making the finale an extended length episode to cover some of that would have been so much better because like I said there was no tension.  Which really diminishes the tragedy they were going for to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Ruger on 04 May 2020, 14:35:50
Type I can I swear.

Still I will echo the sentiment that forcing people to go to outside media is not ideal.

Making the finale an extended length episode to cover some of that would have been so much better because like I said there was no tension.  Which really diminishes the tragedy they were going for to me.

For decades, unless you went to outside media, all you had was the original trilogy, and then the prequels. Outside media added the Marvel then the Dark Horse comics. And novels as well, but not much until the 90’s.

Guess I don’t have an issue with it because I’m used to it. It’s like if you want to know how Maul got away from Sidious and back to Mandalore, you have to read his comic series.

Ruger
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: monbvol on 04 May 2020, 14:56:36
Which I too used to read a lot of EU novels but it kind of rubs me the wrong way here as it really cheapens the tragedy for me because we don't get hardly anything for the fall out/seeing the characters actually have to deal with it while also having to figure out their next moves which means there is no tension either because we knew all the main characters would survive.

Even just another five minutes of run time to give a better payoff is all I'd really need to rate it higher.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Kentares on 04 May 2020, 16:00:42
For decades, unless you went to outside media, all you had was the original trilogy, and then the prequels. Outside media added the Marvel then the Dark Horse comics. And novels as well, but not much until the 90’s.

Guess I don’t have an issue with it because I’m used to it. It’s like if you want to know how Maul got away from Sidious and back to Mandalore, you have to read his comic series.

Ruger

You forgot WEG RPG (since 1987) among a couple of other things as official canon (at the time and the base for the old - now legends - canon according to Pablo Hidalgo in an interview). It was ignored whenever it contradicted stuff that came out in later novels but it was Lucasfilm (and Lucas himself) bible for several years. You can see one WEG sourcebook (I think it is at least) in the table discussion in that youtube video I mentioned in the Mandalorian topic where they talk about Clone Wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Kentares on 04 May 2020, 16:20:21
And now... Taika...

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/05/lucasfilm-confirms-taika-waititi-will-direct-and-co-write-an-upcoming-star-wars-feature-film.html (https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/05/lucasfilm-confirms-taika-waititi-will-direct-and-co-write-an-upcoming-star-wars-feature-film.html)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 May 2020, 17:03:18
You forgot WEG RPG (since 1987) among a couple of other things as official canon (at the time and the base for the old - now legends - canon according to Pablo Hidalgo in an interview). It was ignored whenever it contradicted stuff that came out in later novels but it was Lucasfilm (and Lucas himself) bible for several years. You can see one WEG sourcebook (I think it is at least) in the table discussion in that youtube video I mentioned in the Mandalorian topic where they talk about Clone Wars.

for a moment of utter heresy, The West End Games Star Wars was a fundamentally BETTER game than the D20 thing that came after.  as for story material...

eh, whatever.  I'm with the guy who says if you have to look up an outside source for the movie you're watching to make any sense, it's the movie-maker's fault, and the movie is bad and not worth the money.

One of the things the OLD Extended Universe did very well, was keeping things so that the original trilogy didn't need the exposition-from-an-outside-source to work-the old EU material added, but it wasn't required reading for the characters to make sense or for the plot to be exciting and immersive.

I kind of look at it as "I don't want to need wikipedia and my kindle open to comprehend the movie, or for character x, y, or z to make sense and be engaging on screen."

Your mileage may vary.

Standing Alone, TFA felt like they were just rewriting ANH, only with less story and more explosions.  TLJ felt like I'd missed three or four chapters of the book that fell out while waiting for the bus at the start, and was missing huge chunks that would make me care about the B plot, and again, it felt to me like they replaced story writing with expensive special effects.  The BEST part of TLJ were the Luke scenes and the pit of mirrors scene, but it was like a teaser trailer for a much better story...that we did not get with Episode 9.

Though again, really nice special effects shots and costume work.

contrast this with Rogue 1.  Rogue 1 built a good story and stood on it's own, the characters were engaging and interesting, the plot didn't stumble around like a drunken fratboy with ADHD, acting was on point, when you got to the big finale, you CARED what happened.

contrast also with Solo, which was a fun little Heist movie, and (as a reader of the old novels) fit right to point.  Sure, we had different actors, and YES, there was pandering with some of the lesser characters...but Solo was right down to the core a movie about a heist with some character development that didn't change or invalidate anything that was supposed to come after.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
Post by: Wrangler on 04 May 2020, 18:17:03
I hope the care that was put into making Rogue One will go into the Special-Ops pre-Rogue One television series once it's done.