Author Topic: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...  (Read 34509 times)

Ogra_Chief

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #60 on: 23 December 2019, 20:30:19 »
When Disney deleted EU, they said they wanted a clean slate to start from. Since then, it's just a matter of plagiarizing whatever they want from EU(and Eps I-VI) and hope their hordes of new kid fans don't realize it.

In addition to Dark Empire, RoS might as well also be KOTOR:The Movie.

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That was, "The Plan." However...

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« Last Edit: 23 December 2019, 20:31:55 by Ogra_Chief »
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garhkal

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #61 on: 24 December 2019, 02:16:56 »
Fine, if this is a duel, i challenge you to wet carps, 5 paces. :thumbsup:
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #62 on: 24 December 2019, 16:47:47 »
Saw it because a friend had an extra ticket, and I was curious as to how bad it was going to be.

Visuals - fantastic, if a bit frenetic.
Music - inspiring as always
Acting - solid, given what there was to work with
Pacing - slkkhsd;ghj;trio8hgh !!!
Script - honestly this feels like a first draft that never went through fact checking or rewrites. Bad, bad, bad.

Honestly, not as terrible as I was expecting, but not very good either. I was struggling to CARE about the people and situations on screen, but I couldn't be bothered.

3 out of 10. I'll likely never watch this film again.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #63 on: 24 December 2019, 18:13:46 »
Just my opinion, but I consider that a very good thing. Much of what Rian Johnson did was pitiful. Had it been a standlone film, it miugth ahve worked. Had it not been part of a franchoise with established rules of how the universe works, then it might have worked. But it was not a standalone film, it was the middle film of a trilogy and it was part of a franchise which alraedy had established rules which was two strikes. The third was a pitifully poor script and story. Hamill was great...Fisher was great...Driver and Boyega had certainly improved over their TFA appearances. But I woudl p[ersonally rnak TLJ as the worst film of the nonology.
Established rules? Nah. If anything TROS throws away those, in addition to doing an character assassination (Palps has been established as a masterful planner, patient, smart, and extremely skilled with both the Force and lightsaber combat, yet nothing of that appears in TROS, only the (awesome) large ham.
Case in point - Rose was shoehorned into act as Finns love interest, and she didn't work.
While i grant that TLJ could've been made work without Rose, i think she improved things ultimately. With Rose, the main characters got split neatly into 3 duos. Luke-Rey, Leia-Poe, Rose-Finn, all playing off each other, all learning from someone else. Rose being love interest is incidental, and i'm not sure i'd even call her that, i chalk up most to hero worship (waxing and waning sort) that could develop into either direction (since i figure Finn and Poe were way more interested in each other).

TROS makes a major mistake of throwing away a main character, of which TLJ had 6. For contrast, though Lando is important in ESB, he was not a main character yet got a big and important role in ROTJ anyhow. Hell, Rose has lesser role in TROS than Lando, who has pretty minor and bad role all in all. Utterly stupid.


As i've thought of TROS more, i've decided it is the worst Star Wars film. Yes, worse than prequels, which suffer from bad execution but not bad premise ("life, rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker").
TFA's a bit lame in its retreading of already done stuff but given the time from previous films (IRL), it is acceptable as reintroduction, not to mention that TLJ took things to a bit different direction. But TROS has bad execution and poor premise. A bad ending, leaves a bad taste in mouth.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #64 on: 24 December 2019, 19:14:29 »
If it had been broken up into two films, or perhaps a TV miniseries, would it have been a better film?  The biggest gripe Iv'e seen, and a universal one at that, is the frenetic pacing.  If it had more time to breathe, and wasn't such a fast paced thing, would it be more enjoyable?
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #65 on: 24 December 2019, 19:15:22 »
The reviews I've read seem to indicate the pacing is a secondary concern to the plot holes...

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #66 on: 24 December 2019, 21:18:32 »
If it had been broken up into two films, or perhaps a TV miniseries, would it have been a better film?  The biggest gripe Iv'e seen, and a universal one at that, is the frenetic pacing.  If it had more time to breathe, and wasn't such a fast paced thing, would it be more enjoyable?

Maybe.  But they knew it was going to hurt no matter what, so figured it was better to rip off that bandaid quickly rather than draw it out over several years.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #67 on: 24 December 2019, 21:26:50 »
That was, "The Plan." However...

"No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength"
-Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

Enter the Fandom Menace. *Duel of the Fates* begins to play ominously in the background. It's a joke, no one lose their coffee, please.

 Good point ;D

I'm perfectly fine with Dave Filoni or others reinventing the wheel such as Thrawn, Death Troopers/Dark Troopers, the different origins for the Rebel starfighters etc. They're done nicely.

The sequel trilogy just does it in such a way to make you think you're going through the motions. The more "original" elements such as primitive WWII style heavy bombers in TLJ when they could just mass produce B-Wings and many others, in addition to pacing and script, range from terrible to so-so.

My opinion is that the whole series could just end with ROTJ and the EU up till Legacy and the series wouldn't have missed anything from the sequels.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #68 on: 24 December 2019, 22:34:57 »
Television format is best for science fiction and story telling.  Large films to me are big event moments, while television series has time to tell day-to-day story.
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Dr. Banzai

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #69 on: 24 December 2019, 23:54:47 »
 :)

I am not the Dr. Banzai from Facebook/Youtube. That person is a hateful person that does not represent the spirit of Buckaroo Banzai nor its fandom.

CapricornNoble

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #70 on: 25 December 2019, 04:11:50 »
About half of those complaints are actual critiques that the fans have had about RoTJ for decades, and why it's considered the weakest of the OT.

Nightlord01

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #71 on: 25 December 2019, 04:43:10 »
About half of those complaints are actual critiques that the fans have had about RoTJ for decades, and why it's considered the weakest of the OT.

Yep, but that's inconvenient for people to recall, generally trashes the point they are trying to make.

However, as this isn't about RoS and it could be considered thread derailment, maybe we should drop this line of discussion?

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #72 on: 25 December 2019, 11:23:58 »
Did Chewie get Han's medal at the end, or did they make another medal specifically for him? And how come he didnt get a medal in Ep IV?

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #73 on: 26 December 2019, 02:23:11 »
When Disney deleted EU, they said they wanted a clean slate to start from. Since then, it's just a matter of plagiarizing whatever they want from EU(and Eps I-VI) and hope their hordes of new kid fans don't realize it.

They didn't want to HAVE To be constrained by 50+ Novels / Sourcebooks of EU, not that they couldn't still use some of it.

I wasn't happy about that decision, but I totally GET that decision.   

Can you imagine the fact checking alone to make sure someone didn't contradict something mentioned in a game rulebook 20 years ago or a Novel from nearly 30 years ago.

I'm happy with what they have pulled from EU (Thrawn) and certainly don't mind loosing some of the stuff about EU  (Solos were a powerful Jedi family?  Really)
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #74 on: 26 December 2019, 05:14:15 »
Understood.

I'm much more excited about Mandalorian anyway.

Talen5000

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #75 on: 27 December 2019, 04:54:10 »
While i grant that TLJ could've been made work without Rose, i think she improved things ultimately. With Rose, the main characters got split neatly into 3 duos. Luke-Rey, Leia-Poe, Rose-Finn, all playing off each other, all learning from someone else.

What Rose might have been is irrelevant. She ended up doing nothing, and meaning nothing.

Quote
TROS makes a major mistake of throwing away a main character, of which TLJ had 6. For contrast, though Lando is important in ESB, he was not a main character yet got a big and important role in ROTJ anyhow. Hell, Rose has lesser role in TROS than Lando, who has pretty minor and bad role all in all. Utterly stupid.

What was stupid was giving her any screen time whatsoever. Irrespective of why, her role in TLJ was a non starter and detrimental in so many ways. Yes, most of that was die to the awful, awful script which placed her in a pointless filler arc but with that start, Rose was lucky to make any sort of appearance in ROS.

ROS isn't perfect but one of its flaws is that it tried to do too much. There simply wasn't room to add in Rose and develop the character in a meaningful way.  The time for that was TLJ and RJ blew that.


Quote
As i've thought of TROS more, i've decided it is the worst Star Wars film. Yes, worse than prequels, which suffer from bad execution but not bad premise ("life, rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker").

And I'd disagree. Worst ever SW movie would have to go to TLJ. Awful script, awful story, a full third given over to filler, another third to an awful nonsensical chase scene and the only saving grace about the final third was Hamills stellar performance despite the drivel he was given to work with. I can acknowledge that RJ took risks and accept that risk taking can have value, even in a franchise, just as I can acknowledge that in TLJs case doing so failed spectacularly.

RoS has its own share of goofs - Light skipping should be as impossible as the Holdo maneuver, Poes back story didn't need to be retconned, Palpatine should have had some background, etc - but the performances were much improved, even Ridley, the script was tighter and the core story much more coherent.

It SHOULD indeed have expanded more on so many elements but that was more of a problem with not sitting down and planning out the trilogy in the first place. But TFA spent too much time retreading ANH and TLJ was a near total disaster.

« Last Edit: 27 December 2019, 15:17:11 by Talen5000 »
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #76 on: 27 December 2019, 05:33:28 »
Personally, Finn and Rose are the only characters I've cared about...

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #77 on: 27 December 2019, 09:32:04 »
It SHOULD indeed have expanded more on si many elements but that was more of a problem with not sitting down and planning out the trilogy in the first place. But TFA spent too mich time retreading ANH and TLJ was a near total disaster.

While I don't really agree with the other points, the lack of a developed plan was a decided drawback to the trilogy!

While an overly detailed plan can leave a series feeling clinical and perfunctory, it was clear that there was no plan what so ever for these movies.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #78 on: 27 December 2019, 11:05:59 »
Does anyone know of lists/images of the various Rebel ships in the big fleet? I saw the Ghost and at least a couple Profundity-types, but was hard to spot much else.
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garhkal

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #79 on: 27 December 2019, 15:43:04 »
Personally, Finn and Rose are the only characters I've cared about...

Finn, yes.  Rose i couldn't care less about myself..

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #80 on: 27 December 2019, 15:58:21 »
Supposedly someone pitch a Disney+ series staring Rose.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #81 on: 27 December 2019, 16:24:32 »
Supposedly someone pitch a Disney+ series staring Rose.

Honestly that not surprising to me, with Disney+ I fully expect that any character from their products would be getting pitched a series about.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #82 on: 27 December 2019, 23:17:42 »
Understood.

I'm much more excited about Mandalorian anyway.

Just got access & started watching it.

Love it so far, only 2 episodes in.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #83 on: 27 December 2019, 23:29:54 »
One of the big complaints about RoSky is the rush of the film, but really, the entire trilogy has felt VERY rushed to me.

4-5-6 covered 4 years.

1-2-3 covered 13 years.

7-8-9 feels like it was bout 6 months to a year of total time at most.

None of the "new" cast are huge stars IMHO and I think many of them would do well in TV roles, which takes me to the point that I feel a "Resistance" live action series (Not that Animated Prequel thing) would have been worthy of watching to fill in a lot of the holes, flesh out many of the characters, & take the key players forward post RoSky.

Sure, I'm not seeing Harrison Ford do something like that, but most any of the other characters, I think it could have been a good show.

They could have a Pre-TFA season, a between 8-9 season, etc etc.

Anyway, just a thought I had after the Rose Show comments above.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #84 on: 28 December 2019, 07:59:00 »
Episodes VII and VIII are virtually the latter right after the other (with only enough time to get their ships there and to have a brief funeral for Han).

Episode IX is about a year or so after episode VIII from what I understand.

And many/most of those involved in the original trilogy weren’t big names at the time either.

Easy to forget that after some 42 years.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #85 on: 28 December 2019, 11:40:23 »
While I don't really agree with the other points, the lack of a developed plan was a decided drawback to the trilogy!

While an overly detailed plan can leave a series feeling clinical and perfunctory, it was clear that there was no plan what so ever for these movies.

There was no plan for the original trilogy either.
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Talen5000

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #86 on: 28 December 2019, 14:38:07 »
There was no plan for the original trilogy either.

No - but you didn't see see TESB ignore much of what happened in ANH either.
And with Lucas involved, there was someone there with a single vision of where to go.

TFA was problematic in that it was competent...but average and left too many questioned unanswered. What should have come across as plot hooks for the next story came across as plot holes. All it would have needed was a few extra scenes or lines where Rey used the Force, showing her as talented but untrained. Never mind it was almost a beat for beat reshoot of ANH.

TLJ was problematic in that it ignored or actively dismissed much of what TFA setup. Then it compounded that error by dismissing some of the existing rules of the universe. The Holdo manuever, for example, might have looked great but it was a move that simply should not work in universe. It also made the bad guys look stupid and part of any competently told story is to try and hide the idiot stick. Add in the poor script, the nonsensical chase scene, the ability to track through hyperspace that was both new, previously impossible and yet used in ANH and TFA and TESB and elsewhere, the Canto Bight filler arc, the ridiculous mutiny and the fact Poe Dameron was a traitor who single handled wiped out the Resistance and there is much to dislike. I liked that RJ treid to introduce some grey into the universe, I liked DJ and his message, and I think Hamill did much to redeem the film. I think both Driver and Boyega showed huge improvement over their TFA roles. But overall, I think this film is easily the worst in the entire nonology. I appreciate not everyone feels that way but as I said, a few good moments doesn't make up for the Canto Bight scenes, doesn't make up for the Hoth rethread, doesn't make up for that silly chase sequence. And while both Driver and Boyega showed improvement, Isaac and Ridley  - not so much. Course, it's kinda difficult to tell with Isaac as he didn't have much to do in TFA but Ridley was problematic because she was the central figure of the entire trilogy. She improved a bit for RoS but that isn't relevant for TLJ.

TLJ - I kept getting the feeling that there was entire subplots cut out. Poes unreasonable distrust of Holdo makes much more sense if there had been a traitor storyline. That the fleet was being tracked because of the traitor. That they couldn't jump because the traitor was simply hyperwvae the new lcoation. That Poe saw Holdo as the traitor. Isnetda they went with the lthe "Lets forget hyperspace tracking has been used before and then jump to the conclusion that the First Order found the fleet because it is now able to do what is now imposisble but isn't."

RoS had issues with its own set of impossibilities. Light speed skipping, another instance of the Holdo manuever, "retconning" Poes backstory, the sudden emergence of Palpatine and more. There is plenty to nit pick. And yet, the script is still tighter and more coherent and while it isn't perfect, it does an adequate job of picking up the threads left by TFA and TLJ and trying to weave them into a coherent whole. It could easily have been better...and yet, IMO, it is still, by far, the best of the sequel trilogy. There is plenty of stuff in RoS that needed further development - including Lando and his daughter - but there wasn't really time.

« Last Edit: 28 December 2019, 18:19:46 by Talen5000 »
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #87 on: 28 December 2019, 14:43:43 »
Lando's waitwhat?
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #88 on: 28 December 2019, 15:32:07 »
What Weirdo said... WHAT? ???

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #89 on: 28 December 2019, 15:40:51 »
Pacing has absolutely nothing to do with how many years are between each movie and absolutely everything to do with the flow of events and plot beats within the experienced narrative.

In that sense, Rise of Skywalker is similar to The Force Awakens because JJ Abrams is apparently against the entire idea of the next thing happening in a few minutes instead of breathlessly one after another.

The only part of this movie I thought really nailed the pacing was Rey traversing the ruined death star and the lightsaber fight that followed.  The rest of it was a sprint from one twist or conversation to another with nothing in between.
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