Author Topic: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...  (Read 34503 times)

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #210 on: 09 January 2020, 06:55:21 »
This is my feeling too, I will be entertained by media as I see fit, not as I need to just to understand your movie. I love reading books, but find that Star Wars books are pretty universally poorly written, and I'm not going to fork out another $20 on a book only to find out I can't get through it. I also don't read comics anymore, and haven't for more than a decade.

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.

That's Disney taking a page from EA and many others. DLC in software form wasn't enough, so now we have multi-format "DLCs".

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #211 on: 09 January 2020, 07:34:06 »

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.

I think you just described Luke Skywalker (in A New Hope) and Admiral Ackbar (in Return of the Jedi), correct? 

Edit: btw, one thing I will admit to being irritated at is the fact that the novelization of the movie confirms that Nien Nunb is killed at the helm of the Tantive IV during the Battle of Exegol.

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« Last Edit: 09 January 2020, 07:46:27 by Ruger »
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #212 on: 09 January 2020, 08:15:44 »
I thought the novelization wasn't out 'till March 3rd?
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #213 on: 09 January 2020, 08:18:30 »
I thought the novelization wasn't out 'till March 3rd?

Not sure, but already have info posted on Wookieepedia, and seen other reports via yahoo.

And the author confirmed via Twitter.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #214 on: 09 January 2020, 09:19:50 »
This is my feeling too, I will be entertained by media as I see fit, not as I need to just to understand your movie. I love reading books, but find that Star Wars books are pretty universally poorly written, and I'm not going to fork out another $20 on a book only to find out I can't get through it. I also don't read comics anymore, and haven't for more than a decade.

I shouldn't have to read books to learn how someone living hand to mouth could possibly learn how to pilot star ships, or who this admiral is who's just taken over the Resistance, given that she was introduced in a manner indicating everyone knew her.

The book I'm currently reading, Force Collector, is IMO the 6th best Star Wars novel Disney has put out. And it's a Young Adult novel. Let that sink in. The new Thrawn trilogy is 1-3, then From A Certain Point of View, then Master and Apprentice. Disclaimer: I've only read about 20 of the Disney books.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #215 on: 09 January 2020, 09:23:46 »
Is there a guide or something to current EU publications? I was an avid collector of the old EU(only falling off during the Yuuzhan Vong stuff), and would love a list of things to look for whenever I next assault a used bookstore.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #216 on: 09 January 2020, 09:29:52 »
Is there a guide or something to current EU publications? I was an avid collector of the old EU(only falling off during the Yuuzhan Vong stuff), and would love a list of things to look for whenever I next assault a used bookstore.

Are you looking for Legends EU or books published under the Disney banner (which are all canonical)?

I’m assuming the latter, but want to be sure.

Also, are you just looking for novels or also things like info books on ships, bounty hunters, smugglers, etc.?

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #217 on: 09 January 2020, 09:34:38 »
Current canon, and novels, please.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #218 on: 09 January 2020, 10:11:26 »
Current canon, and novels, please.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Canon_adult_novels

There are also juvenile, young reader and young adult novels that are canon.

For that last, I really enjoyed Ahsoka.

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« Last Edit: 09 January 2020, 10:13:31 by Ruger »
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #219 on: 09 January 2020, 10:47:18 »
I think you just described Luke Skywalker (in A New Hope) and Admiral Ackbar (in Return of the Jedi), correct? 

Luke was introduced as a pilot....going to the academy, being able to fly a ship, shooting womprats in Beggars Canyon.
Rey was not. Rey was introduced as a scavenger.

Holdo was introduced as a replacement commander, shuttled in from one of the other ships. In this, she had about as much introduction as Ackbar. More. Holdos problem is that she wasn't Ackbar.

A large chunk of the story revolved around her but we weren't given anything about her. No reason to support Poe in his idiotic distrust of her. Ackbar was an established character who should have been the character RJ used. And then Poes story could have been based on distrust that he is "past it", not the Admiral he used to be while Ackbars reticence at explaining his plans could be explained away as being burnt by Endor.

Instead....we got Holdo. A new character with no background, no story. The initial intro is carried out by Poe who seems very impressed with her and her backstory but then gets a major chip on his shoulder when she rightfully points out he doesn't need to know her plans and his history shows him to be an unnecessary distraction.

Holdos entire storyline here appears to be one where a new character was brought in simply to play the part of a traitor, excusing Poes paranoia, only for the traitor storyline to be dropped.

But her intro itself was OK.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #220 on: 09 January 2020, 11:07:34 »
Luke was introduced as a pilot....going to the academy, being able to fly a ship, shooting womprats in Beggars Canyon.
Rey was not. Rey was introduced as a scavenger.

Rey also bounced the Falcon off of no fewer than three large flat surfaces the first time they took off.  This point always confuses me because we're shown in explicit detail that Rey is bad at this but the Force is a fantastic crutch in the form of reflexes and intuition.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #221 on: 09 January 2020, 11:23:27 »
Luke was introduced as a pilot....going to the academy, being able to fly a ship, shooting womprats in Beggars Canyon.
Rey was not. Rey was introduced as a scavenger.

Luke was introduced as a pilot of land and maybe airspeeders, not starships. Where did he get training for starships? He never attended the academy. And the Lars didn’t look to have any starships.

Rey was introduced (admittedly not in the movie, but in the young adult book released prior to the movie, IIRC, that told of her life on Jakku) as having learned to fly several different starships via a flight sim trainer she had salvaged from a wreck. She also helped rebuild a Ghtroc lightly freighter into flyable condition with a couple others who then stole it from her.

And as Scotty says, her first attempt at real flying had a lot of hiccups along the way.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #222 on: 09 January 2020, 12:12:31 »
Luke was introduced as a pilot of land and maybe airspeeders, not starships. Where did he get training for starships? He never attended the academy. And the Lars didn’t look to have any starships.

https://youtu.be/8ioOYLrlYsk?t=70

His T-16 is physically in the background of numerous shots at the Lars residence in A New Hope:
http://www.loresdelsith.net/ph/bin_hyper/skyhopper2.jpg
https://starwarsataglance.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/larsgarage.png?w=300&h=127

The T-16 airspeeder is basically a civilian atmospheric fighter: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper
Considering that X-Wings are aerospace fighters, the flight characteristics are probably close enough that his knowledge was transferable to the new (to him) airframe.
Luke never pilots anything bigger than a Lambda-class shuttle (physically similar to the T-16) in the entire original trilogy. He's a fighter pilot. Perhaps a prodigy, combined with (amateur) experience, but a fighter pilot, not a starship pilot. He not once piloted anything like even the Millennium Falcon, let alone anything larger generally considered in the "starship" category.

Rey, even if she supposedly had simulator time (not established or even hinted in the movie but I'll accept expanded canon info), had no indications of actual "in seat" time in any flight-capable craft, and then pulls off almost an inverted Pugachev's Cobra her first time flying the Falcon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver
« Last Edit: 09 January 2020, 12:18:32 by CapricornNoble »

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #223 on: 09 January 2020, 13:30:03 »
The maneuver you linked is described as difficult because of difficulties inherent to piloting jet engine fighters with stall speeds and air intakes.

I feel like I shouldn't have to explain why those things are not nearly as difficult in a craft that 1) has a large horizontal cross-section and 2) can hover in place with no difficulty.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #224 on: 09 January 2020, 13:34:05 »
Rey also bounced the Falcon off of no fewer than three large flat surfaces the first time they took off.  This point always confuses me because we're shown in explicit detail that Rey is bad at this but the Force is a fantastic crutch in the form of reflexes and intuition.

Eh. This is one of those points where I simply eat my popcorn. The justifications of flying ability don't map well at all to real life in which one needs at least a couple-hundred hours to get remotely competent. The universe depicts spaceborne vehicles as basically universally accessible or just taught as one learns to ride a bike. With the amount of work I put in to understand and safely pilot a CRJ 200, the difference in accessibility is so large that it stopped bothering me as far back as the original trilogy.

I guess it's the same as a range of responses from any field of expertise whether cops, MDs, nurses, soldiers, or engineers. There's a point where one either needs to ignore those bits or walk away in frustration. I'm more the former.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #225 on: 09 January 2020, 14:28:44 »
Luke was introduced as a pilot of land and maybe airspeeders, not starships. Where did he get training for starships? He never attended the academy. And the Lars didn’t look to have any starships.

It doesn't matter where.

"Han Solo: But who's gonna fly it, kid? You?
Luke Skywalker: You bet I could! I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

establishes that he could fly a starship. That he was going to head to the academy, that he mentioned Beggars Canyon...that he was a pilot was "built into" the character. We don't ask  where Han Solo learned to fly either - we just accept that he did because it is in his character.

Quote
Rey was introduced (admittedly not in the movie, but in the young adult book released prior to the movie

If it isn't in the movie - it didn't happen. There is a major difference between unanswered questions, and plot holes.

Rey was introduced in the movie as a scavenger and there was absolutely zero indication that she had any flight training, formal or informal. Her ability to fly was fairly central to the start of the movie but her character description, as shown, gave us a character who should not have been able to fly. This is one area where TFA was bad - what shoudl ahve been left at the level of unanswered questions to be explored later became fairly important to the plot of TFA with a necessity to be somehow addressed. Reys ability with the Force for example - she should have been shown using it. Not very well, but enough to show that she had gained some knowledge of it. That she was talented, but untrained. The boy at the end of TLJ, grabbing the broom - that should have been Rey at the start of TFA.

Reys introduction as a pilot was another of those moments. Since she wasn't introduced as a pilot, we needed something to explain away her skill and proficiency. Even - as with Luke in ANH - a simple sentence or two. That explanation never occurred.

So yeah - I'm with those who state that elements central to the story shouldn't be divided between mediums. A Mechanic telling Rey that the sims were offline or similar would have been enough. Not perfect...Rey didn't want to leave Jakku so why was she engaged in sims? Better if she had wanted to leave to go search for her parents.

And those "hiccups" had her fly a large ship through a Star Destroyer while more nimble, smaller TIE fighters with trained and experienced crew crashed.

So - no. That an explanation was in a book doesn't mean much.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #226 on: 09 January 2020, 14:35:50 »
And those "hiccups" had her fly a large ship through a Star Destroyer while more nimble, smaller TIE fighters with trained and experienced crew crashed.

That much is explicable in context. See also Anakin Skywalker, child - force sensitive. Established in the movie that he was anticipating events slightly into the future - eg. caught the fruit Qui-Gon threw at him - which contributed to his piloting skill.

Doesn't establish that Rey knew how to start a starship, true - but there's well established lore for force-sensitives being capable of doing things normals can't do well.

Besides, "Star Wars" - episode 4, ANH, call it what you will - is indeed a highly entertaining, but basically silly and over-the-top, space opera. No internal consistency needed, none need apply. In "Star Wars", things were what they were, and no-one took it that seriously. Then.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #227 on: 09 January 2020, 14:40:11 »
When Finn says “We need a pilot!”, Rey responds with “We’ve got one!”.

Just as much explanation as Luke saying “I’m not such a bad pilot myself.”

If it works for a moisture farmer, it should work for a scavenger.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #228 on: 09 January 2020, 15:18:59 »
To be fair, this is a universe where starships are about as common and maintenance-complex as modern automobiles.  I would assume they're equally simple to fly, considering the Falcon had its computer systems (and a Wookiee co-pilot) while Luke had Artoo supporting the X-wing's systems.  The droid handles the complex stuff and the guy-in-front is just....a guy in front.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #229 on: 09 January 2020, 19:45:58 »
The maneuver you linked is described as difficult because of difficulties inherent to piloting jet engine fighters with stall speeds and air intakes.

I feel like I shouldn't have to explain why those things are not nearly as difficult in a craft that 1) has a large horizontal cross-section and 2) can hover in place with no difficulty.

If a powered hover is that easy then why did Rey cut the engines and essentially go "dead stick" to pull off the move? And it's not only being able to operate the craft but having the spatial and tactical awareness to know exactly when to execute the maneuver, but I guess we can chalk that up to "The Force", like so much else.

Also, re: pilot experience

Finn: "How did you do that?"
Rey: "I don't know!"
Finn: "No one trained you?"
Rey: "I've flown some ships but I've never left the planet--"

So apparently she's operated something at some point. *shrug*

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #230 on: 09 January 2020, 19:59:02 »
There is a theory floating around that there is a certain piloting droid AI in the Falcon's systems that helps the flesh bags at the controls.  There is even some on screen only support for this theory as well.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #231 on: 09 January 2020, 20:05:35 »
C3PO was trying to interpret the Falcon's flight computer in Empire.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #232 on: 09 January 2020, 20:13:12 »
I imagine the dialogue between Threepio and L3 played out a lot like the implied conversations between him and R2 at his snarkiest.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #233 on: 09 January 2020, 21:06:12 »
I imagine the dialogue between Threepio and L3 played out a lot like the implied conversations between him and R2 at his snarkiest.
And when you realize Lando "Come on, baby, you know I still love you" Calrissian gets his hands on it in RotJ and smashes off the antenna...that really changes that moment!
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #234 on: 10 January 2020, 09:39:54 »
I think you just described Luke Skywalker (in A New Hope) and Admiral Ackbar (in Return of the Jedi), correct? 

Huh? The differences between the characters are immense, if you'd like I'll PM you with a full breakdown.

As for my point, there was a reasonably detailed explanation for Luke's ability to pilot an X-Wing, and Ackbar's command was a fleet, not the full organisation. Other posters have answered your points adequately, I see no reason to belabor the point.

I will also note that no book in the EU every provided any greater explanation than the movie did, and I never needed to read a book to understand ANH. Good thing too, I read the book, it was horridly written.

I'd be very curious to know, as well, how Luke was living hand to mouth? Or how Admiral Ackbar took over the Rebellion, care to shed some light on this for me?
« Last Edit: 10 January 2020, 10:24:33 by Nightlord01 »

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #235 on: 10 January 2020, 11:18:55 »
OK, let's not get this thread locked again.
I have spoken.


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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #236 on: 10 January 2020, 11:46:53 »
No real point to continue. I’ve said my peace, you’ve said yours. We’re not going to agree with each other. Why belabor the point?

I enjoyed these movies, even if much of them is rehash of the original trilogy. Many did not. It’s as simple as that.

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #237 on: 10 January 2020, 14:45:29 »
Hyped up character based on their first appearance who goes out like a goon in their second?  Yup, sounds like Boba Fett to me.

Did they some how try to bring her back in rise of skywalker?

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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #238 on: 10 January 2020, 15:05:23 »
Did they some how try to bring her back in rise of skywalker?

Im glad they didn't. That was such a terrible character built up to be this uber awesome person.
Boba Fett didnt have all that build up.....he got all the awesome after the movies.
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Re: Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...
« Reply #239 on: 14 January 2020, 07:28:28 »
In the most recent episode of Resistance we finally got to see the First Order TIE Bomber.

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