Star Wars: The Rise of... Stuff... and Things...

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Call me really wishes that maybe some of the republics sleep at showing up in one of the film.
See so crazy none of the cpuld not had been spare that remained help fight the Order.

Yes. The sequels suffer from their narrow focus on just the Resistance vs First Order to the exclusion of everything else, even the New Republic fleets.

ONE bomber took out a 7000+ meter long dreadnought in one bombing run. They can carry over 1000 proton bombs each.

I’d say they meet your requirement.

Ruger

For those 8 heavy bombers with their extreme vulnerability to flak/interceptors, larger crew requirement/greater maintenance needs/bigger logistical tail, under 30-year veteran commanders like Leia and Ackbar(who in the original EU was responsible for the B-Wing project for this very lack in the Rebel fleet capability), you could get an equivalent 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings. New EU B-Wings can even drop bombs in addition to their 2 proton torpedo launchers.

24-36 B-Wings that attacked that single dreadnought from multiple vectors after Poe had knocked out their AA turrets and their escorts dealt with enemy interceptors would've had a much higher survival rate while accomplishing the same objective.

Smaller fighters are superior to big fighters due to maneuverability and cost. This has been proven since at least World War II, where heavy twin-engine fighters kept losing to single-engine light fighters. With the technology level of Star Wars, B-Wings are more practical than the heavy bombers.

Avoiding this kind of bomber losses was also why the Brits switched to night bombing in WWII due to conserving a small precious bomber force i.e. you don't charge openly into the enemy in full visibility like in TLJ.

[Scotty]

For those 8 heavy bombers with their extreme vulnerability to flak/interceptors, larger crew requirement/greater maintenance needs/bigger logistical tail, under 30-year veteran commanders like Leia and Ackbar(who in the original EU was responsible for the B-Wing project for this very lack in the Rebel fleet capability), you could get an equivalent 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings.

[Citation needed]

[monbvol]

This way lies why we can't have nice Star Wars threads on these forums.

[Hellraiser]

I'm assuming we didn't see B-Wings because the Resistance wasn't able to get their hands on any.

At least not in the 2-3 squadrons worth that is mentioned as an alternative to the Bombers.

[Wrangler]

I was kinda confused how these Starfortress bombers were even effective in first place. Unless they had to go slow (or they appear to go slow in conventional/non-hyperspace way) hit the Dreadnought.

Kinda funny, the Dreadnought was arguably brand new design, yet the Sith were able drag out antique Star Destroyers with retro-fitted planetary guns that were superior.  Those retrofitted gun could rival anything but a Death Star/Star Killer Base. Making Dreadnought effectively obsolete by the old SDs. 

[Hellraiser]

The only thing I can think of to explain that is that the DS Plans/Kyber Laser plans were not in possession of the Imperial Remnants that escaped to wherever they went.

But Palpatine had possession of them on his little Sith Vacation world.

[KayEmm]

Kinda funny, the Dreadnought was arguably brand new design, yet the Sith were able drag out antique Star Destroyers with retro-fitted planetary guns that were superior.  Those retrofitted gun could rival anything but a Death Star/Star Killer Base. Making Dreadnought effectively obsolete by the old SDs.

The Final Order Star Destroyers were a totally new class that superficially resembles the old Imperial II class but is about 50% larger. The cannons are integral to the design.

More random thoughts:

Given the way that Red Lightsabres now work, I wonder if the fractured crystal in Kylo Ren's sabre is the one he had when he was a Jedi?

Also the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Anthony Daniels was impro-ing his performance throughout the film and saying whatever came to his mind. And I loved it.

(Also I just saw it for the third time. I don't have a problem!)

[Hellraiser]

Given the way that Red Lightsabres now work, I wonder if the fractured crystal in Kylo Ren's sabre is the one he had when he was a Jedi?

What are you talking about here?

You lost me.   Is there some change to lightsabers now?

[KayEmm]

What are you talking about here?

You lost me.   Is there some change to lightsabers now?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Bleeding

tl;dr - Red Kyber crystals do not occur naturally. Rather, they come from a dark-side force user "bleeding" the crystal and bending it to their will through ritual. It makes the red sabre a lot more impactful then just suggesting that the person using it is bad.

[Hellraiser]

Ah, I see.

Other than them not occurring naturally, I thought that was always the case.

I guess that info is all that I have known.

I thought they came with a color like any gem but a force user could manipulate that as part of making the light saber.

Sith focus DS Force on them to make them red.

Ahsoka drained hers to be white.

[I am Belch II]

All the ships in RoS were just reused form other movies. It's a JJ staple just using things from his other idea....use things from things before. Very sad should of had something new and scary for the Sith.

I don't understand why the ships has to be in the ocean and hidden. Nobody could figure out how to get to Exegool so why need to hide them.

[Hellraiser]

Nothing about that planet made sense really.

What were those monkey faced creatures?

Why were the ships submerged?

Why did they need a single sensor tower?

Who was piloting them?

How was it that some other FO SD could replace said sensor tower?

How did the Emperor get to that planet?

Was that body his original ROTJ body?

Was he a clone?

Since when can the force teleport anything?

Etc etc etc.

[Ruger]

Since when can the force teleport anything?

For a while now. Since at least the introduction of the Aing-Tii in the old EU.

Edit: apparently for at least 20+ years as the power was used in Timothy Zahn’s novel Vision of the Future back in 1998.

Ruger

[ArkRoyalRavager]

[Citation needed]

An SF-17 has a crew of 5 vs B-Wing only needing a pilot. 8 heavy bombers were in TLJ, that makes 40 irreplaceable dead crew. If resources were devoted to B-Wings, that's at least 24-36 or 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings. The enemy was a single capital ship, meaning multi-vector attacks by small starfighters would be a far better option than Rian Johnson depicting space fighting like 2-D Earth airplanes bombing a ship.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I'm assuming we didn't see B-Wings because the Resistance wasn't able to get their hands on any.

At least not in the 2-3 squadrons worth that is mentioned as an alternative to the Bombers.

It's ironic that the movies depict the Resistance as unable to even get cheap fighters in meaningful amounts while their enemies can spam capital ships at will.

[Ruger]

It's ironic that the movies depict the Resistance as unable to even get cheap fighters in meaningful amounts while their enemies can spam capital ships at will.

The First Order has their own shipyards thanks to Palpatine. The Resistance has to scrounge what they can find. The Fortress bombers were on the open market for conversion to civilian purposes (mining, cargo carriers, etc.). B-Wings, not so much.

Ruger

[Scotty]

An SF-17 has a crew of 5 vs B-Wing only needing a pilot. 8 heavy bombers were in TLJ, that makes 40 irreplaceable dead crew. If resources were devoted to B-Wings, that's at least 24-36 or 2-3 squadrons of B-Wings. The enemy was a single capital ship, meaning multi-vector attacks by small starfighters would be a far better option than Rian Johnson depicting space fighting like 2-D Earth airplanes bombing a ship.

I feel like treating literally only the crew on a 1:1 basis the limiting factor is a giant pile of additional [citation needed], because it assumes dozens of facts not in evidence.  First and foremost: that there are even that many B-Wings in existence at that moment, being a 30 year old fighter-bomber from a previous war and government.

It's seriously like seeing a tank company in some planetary militia in the late-Jihad, and declaring that it would make way more sense for the militia to be fielding a battalion of Mad Cats for the same crew requirements.  Obviously.

[dgorsman]

Nothing about that planet made sense really.

What were those monkey faced creatures?

Why were the ships submerged?

Why did they need a single sensor tower?

Who was piloting them?

How was it that some other FO SD could replace said sensor tower?

How did the Emperor get to that planet?

Was that body his original ROTJ body?

Was he a clone?

Since when can the force teleport anything?

Etc etc etc.

Maybe there's a book we need to read...   :toofunny:

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The First Order has their own shipyards thanks to Palpatine. The Resistance has to scrounge what they can find. The Fortress bombers were on the open market for conversion to civilian purposes (mining, cargo carriers, etc.). B-Wings, not so much.

Ruger

That's right. However, all FO and Sith capital ships (Resurgent-, Mega-, Mandator-IV-, Xyston-classes) have a single point of origin, Kuat-Entralla Engineering(with shipyards in Exegol and Unknown Regions), a subsidiary of KDY, whose primary and most productive yards are at Kuat, a New Republic planet. Apparently the Resistance can't even contract Kuat for their own capital ships ::) Or Mon Calamari, Corellia, Sullust or Fondor. Or even use the hidden Rebel yards at Telaris. It's as if the Resistance has no logisticians to oversee procurement and supply on a total war footing.

For B-Wings, since Leia used her money to fund the Resistance, she could easily contract Slayn & Korpil for a new secret production run. The FO and Sith could contract KDY for Star Destroyers and Dreadnoughts under everyone's noses. Secret starfighter squadrons would be child's play.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I feel like treating literally only the crew on a 1:1 basis the limiting factor is a giant pile of additional [citation needed], because it assumes dozens of facts not in evidence.  First and foremost: that there are even that many B-Wings in existence at that moment, being a 30 year old fighter-bomber from a previous war and government.

It's seriously like seeing a tank company in some planetary militia in the late-Jihad, and declaring that it would make way more sense for the militia to be fielding a battalion of Mad Cats for the same crew requirements.  Obviously.

Uh, no. A better BattleTech analogy would be advocating for Heavy Mechs over Superheavy Mechs. To cite The Rebel Files and Poe Dameron, StarFortresses are better bombers than B-Wings. However, their usage in TLJ is far inferior to the Rebel usage of B-Wings, where half a squadron of them could be hyperspace raiders that concentrated on single Star Destroyers and promptly knocked the SD out before jumping out again.

[Wrangler]

Starfortress just plain bad idea, without thinking about what been used or how universe works.

Ships move fast, fighters faster than capital ships.  Those overized bombers were way too slow to work on anyone other than stationary targets or freighters with broken hyperdrives.

[Fat Guy]

Those overized bombers were way too slow to work on anyone other than stationary targets or freighters with broken hyperdrives.

Or capital ships apparently.   :D

[Scotty]

It's as if the Resistance has no logisticians to oversee procurement and supply on a total war footing.

It's almost as if the New Republic wasn't willing to commit to action against the First Order.  You know, that part of the opening crawl of The Force Awakens when we're explicitly told exactly that?  What exactly do you expect three squadrons of snubfighters, a corvette, two frigates, and a cruiser to accomplish on 'total war footing'?

For B-Wings, since Leia used her money to fund the Resistance, she could easily contract Slayn & Korpil for a new secret production run. The FO and Sith could contract KDY for Star Destroyers and Dreadnoughts under everyone's noses. Secret starfighter squadrons would be child's play.

[Citation needed]

I really don't want to be a dick about it, but literally nothing you've mentioned is anything actually supported by anything in Star Wars, and is instead universally in the vein of "I think it could work this way, therefore it must work this way" which is, to be blunt, not correct.

Prove it.  Don't rely on 'should' and 'probably'.  Point to the places in the text or movie that support your claim.

[Nightlord01]

It's almost as if the New Republic wasn't willing to commit to action against the First Order.  You know, that part of the opening crawl of The Force Awakens when we're explicitly told exactly that?  What exactly do you expect three squadrons of snubfighters, a corvette, two frigates, and a cruiser to accomplish on 'total war footing'?

It really depends on how reasonable you want to be about it. Assuming procurement is a multi-year cycle, being unwilling to commit to action against an opponent doesn't mean either refusing to build up your forces to oppose them should the decision be taken out of your hands, nor allowing companies under your jurisdiction to build weapons for them.

The best real world analogue is the Cold War, do you think France would have happily built weapons for the Soviet Union? Or vice versa? No, they wouldn't, and didn't. None of the potential combatants in the Cold War wanted to commit to overt war against the adversary, they would actively avoid doing so, doesn't mean any of them were embarking on disarmament programs.

While Star Wars doesn't happen in the real world, the Republic would be literally too stupid to survive if it denied even the possibility for war against the First Order, a descendant of the order the Republic deposed. That sort of stupidity was previously the province of the EU, maybe that's another thing Disney took from it.

[Ruger]

It really depends on how reasonable you want to be about it. Assuming procurement is a multi-year cycle, being unwilling to commit to action against an opponent doesn't mean either refusing to build up your forces to oppose them should the decision be taken out of your hands, nor allowing companies under your jurisdiction to build weapons for them.

The best real world analogue is the Cold War, do you think France would have happily built weapons for the Soviet Union? Or vice versa? No, they wouldn't, and didn't. None of the potential combatants in the Cold War wanted to commit to overt war against the adversary, they would actively avoid doing so, doesn't mean any of them were embarking on disarmament programs.

While Star Wars doesn't happen in the real world, the Republic would be literally too stupid to survive if it denied even the possibility for war against the First Order, a descendant of the order the Republic deposed. That sort of stupidity was previously the province of the EU, maybe that's another thing Disney took from it.

It is. The New Republic in the new canon has been taking the “peace at costs” kool-aid and doing their best imitation of an ostrich with its head in the sand when it comes to military armaments and the First Order. They have been actively disarming (this is where most of the Resistance’s few ships have come from, especially the Raddus), declaring that the First Order is no threat to the galaxy.

Ruger

[Bosefius]

***MOD NOTICE

THE CONVERSATION ABOUT BOMBERS IS OVER. THIS THREAD HAD BEEN QUIET UNTIL THIS TOPIC BECAME HEATED, SO, AFTER SOME DISCUSSION, WE'RE REMOVING THE TOPIC.

THANK YOU

Original:
We've been patient but this conversation needs to take a step back, people are starting to tip toe the line.

Let's not bring warnings into this, Luke would be disappointed.

[Fat Guy]

When the movie comes to home video this spring and we're all scouring the final battle (someone already took a cellphone shot in the theater of a pair of Naboo N1s), be on the lookout for these: the Fireball, Jarek Yeager’s racer, and Torra Doza’s ship. ILM created photo-real versions of these vessels to populate the movie’s space battle, which are shown below
.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Someone is a Porsche fan with exquisite taste.  Ferrari 512S is still the more beautiful machine, though.

[Luciora]

That first fighter reminds me alot of the Harlock Space Wolf fighter.

[Ruger]

That first fighter reminds me alot of the Harlock Space Wolf fighter.

It’s supposed to be a cross between a X-Wing and a F4U Corsair.

Ruger