Infantry Platoon Board?

[Marwynn]

Doesn't seem to be one at the moment.

I find myself in need of a few platoons for a 3000-circa mercenary force. The force is all about heavy assaults and tackling heavily defended objectives.

Their 'Mechs are sufficiently powerful for the job, but I want an infantry force as well. There's room to grab APCs if necessary, I was thinking Jump Infantry but I haven't really fiddled with the platoon construction rules much, so I'll take any suggestions.

(I'm also ignoring many of the cost modifiers for now, assume they've been integral to the outfit, not new hires.)

[Daryk]

In that era, it's tough to beat a combination of auto-rifles (primary) and Intek laser rifles (secondary) for basic infantry.  By taking two Inteks, you push the range of the platoon out to nine hexes without impacting mobility.  Field guns or artillery are another option if you're looking to support an assault force.

[Marwynn]

Hey, that is a nice little unit.

I was fiddling around with the BattleTech Infantry Platoon Construction software and I came up with a platoon that used Auto-Rifles and 2 Heavy Support Lasers per squad. Since my standard infantry platoon is five squads of six troopers, and the Heavy Support Laser needs a crew of 3 it seemed quite advantageous.

Jump Platoon, Ab/Flak, 4 Auto Rifles and 2 Heavy Support Lasers per squad, 5 squads, comes to 165 BV and 13.6 million C-bills. According to the program, it only needs 3.78 tons for transport as well, which is nifty.

25 damage at 15 hexes. Doesn't compare to the price-efficiency of the Auto/Intek squad though. A Jump Platoon is only 5.4 million, and a mechanized hover platoon is 6.7m.  I wonder, would Ballistic Plate be worth it for the hovers?

[Daryk]

I'm not sure.  I don't much go for the "mechanized infantry" types.  I prefer to drive foot infantry around in combat vehicles.  At five tons, you can get a 9/14 wheeled jeep with 10 points of armor all around and enough room for a small squad.

[Col.Hengist]

I myself have been toying around with the inf. stuff lately. Not that i am getting tired of the big and stompies but i do think that PBI have come a long way and are totally more useful.

 Anyway, thanks for starting this thread.I look forward to the discussions.

[truetanker]

Any chance we can see some S/L RM missilers in this fray? Also has anyone ever made a MRM Platoon, or is that unlikely?

TT

[Marwynn]

MRM troopers aren't a possibility, the only Support MRM is a One-Shot weapon.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I was messing around with Ballistic Plate and Mechanized Hover Platoons and I came up with this:

Mechanized Hover
Armour: Ballistic Plate (Standard)
Primary: Auto Rifles x 24
Secondary: FarShot LRM Launcher x 10 (2 Per Squad)
Platoon: 6 Troops in 5 Squads


Armour Divisor 2
Double Damage from non-infantry attacks
Cannot make anti-'Mech attacks
Movement: 3 Hover MP (Down from 5, -1 for 2 Support Weapons, -1 for Ballistic Plate)
Range: 9
Damage: 12 (10 Primary, 2 Secondary)

Cost: 9,088,000 C-Bills
BV: 127
Weight: 30 tons

----------

Note, if you swap out the FarShot LRMs for Intek Laser Rifles you get the same damage values for apparently the same range.

[TJHairball]

In that era, it's tough to beat a combination of auto-rifles (primary) and Intek laser rifles (secondary) for basic infantry.  By taking two Inteks, you push the range of the platoon out to nine hexes without impacting mobility.  Field guns or artillery are another option if you're looking to support an assault force.

Wow. That seems like it's cheesing the rules.

On review... is it just me, or do the infantry construction rules look kinda breakable?  :-\

[Daryk]

I look at it more as an attempt to rationalize rifle ranges.  Two designated marksmen per squad to "paint" targets out to 270 meters for the auto rifles isn't unreasonable in my opinion.

[TJHairball]

I look at it more as an attempt to rationalize rifle ranges.  Two designated marksmen per squad to "paint" targets out to 270 meters for the auto rifles isn't unreasonable in my opinion.

You'd get the same de facto range boost if you were using thrown rocks, flamer pistols, needlers, et cetera. I can do it with vibroaxes, getting me .32 damage per trooper at 9 hexes.  :-\

It makes some sense to approximate the squad as essentially using all support weapons when the support weapons provide most of the damage, but that seems to break down pretty badly when the primary weapon provides most of the damage. You don't even lose mobility off of that trick.

It also makes the standard laser rifle infantry - and for that matter the standard LRM infantry - in TW totally obsolete. And those are supposed to be the "more advanced" types of infantry the Successor States wish they could field more of.  #P

Idk. It's nice to have a system to create all kinds of infantry platoons, but the system really seems pretty easily gamed to create infantry platoons that would perform much better on the BT scale than on the RPG scale. Since the BV calculations are additive (8*Autorifle BV + 2*Intek BV), while the combination's effects are multiplicative (8*Autorifle Damage +2*Intek Damage)*(Intek range), it also games the BV system. The Intek is 1.27 BV, the Autorifle is 1.28 BV, but in that sort of combination they outperform (substantially!) the ER (Starfire) Laser Rifle at 1.69 BV. This is like the flamer bug - there's an element of non-monotonicity. I can make a better unit for less BV.

Also, here's another thing that really sticks out to me. Let's say I have a platoon with squads of five using 2 Inteks and 3 autorifles each. They attack at 3 range. I now increase the number of Inteks to 3 Inteks per squad. They now attack at 1 range, because I ... increased the number of long range weapons the platoon had.  ???

It seems to me as if we ought to have been using the range of the weapons that are dealing a bigger share of damage, at the least...

[Daryk]

I'm not saying the rules aren't broken, just that I don't see the auto-rifle/Intek combination as off the reservation.

[Marwynn]

Yeah, the rules are... well, whack (if I may use that 90s term).

I think the rules are meant to smooth over a lot of things with infantry, namely the ranges of the weapons and even some support weapons. Of course, I always read the ranges as "effective" ranges.

I don't understand why there was a need to combine all the damage together though. It reduces the flavour of each weapon type to mere numbers you add and mix around with. Naturally, if you're playing with numbers mostly it lends itself to easier min-maxing.

Why is auto-rifle damage that high anyway?

What if the ranges are kept separate? Standard weapons and Support weapons could attack separately, making standard weapons more than, well, filler.

[Marwynn]

Heavy Support Infantry
Motorized
5 Squads of 6 troopers (30)
Armour: Ballistic Plate, Standard
Primary: 20 Auto-Rifles
Secondary: 10 Heavy Support Lasers (2 in each squad)
Field Gun: 2 Thumper Artillery (20 shots each)

Range: 15
Damage: 25
Armour Divisor: 2
Encumbered, Cannot make Anti-'Mech attacks
Weight: 38.3 tons
Mobility: 1 MP
Cost: 9,344,000 C-Bills
BV: 187

-----------

When you positively have to hold a position. Hauling them there may be problematic, it's a full 40 tons and their 1 MP isn't going to get them anywhere fast.

That said, they're deadly at any range. I'm enjoying the Auto-Rifle/Heavy Support Laser combo too much. A Foot platoon without the Thumper field guns is "only" 5.72 million C-Bills and 164 BV. It's MoF, but weighs 3 tons and has the same characteristics above. Hard to beat that, really.

There does need to be a better system for incorporating support weapons.

[Col.Hengist]

Most of the stuff you guys are talking about goes way over my head.
 So talk to me about where are you guys getting this stuff. I really want to get better with pbi but the rules seem all over the place.

[TJHairball]

Most of the stuff you guys are talking about goes way over my head.
 So talk to me about where are you guys getting this stuff. I really want to get better with pbi but the rules seem all over the place.

TechManual, pp 145-155 give the conventional infantry platoon construction rules, which is what we're talking about.

[Col.Hengist]

ok, found that.Now where does it talk about their movement and attacking? Like they all pile out of their transport. Can they shoot at something that turn?do they have to get out where the carrier stops or can they get out before it stops like a combat drop from a kharnov ?If you drop them from a vtol into the same hex as a mech can they swarm the mech that turn or does a kharnov( above the lvl of the mech) an infantry platoon and a mech bereak the stacking rules? that kind of stuff.

[Marwynn]

That'd be in Total Warfare, looking at page 224 and on.

Dismounting is limited to 1 per hex per turn. Can't move or make attacks on the turn it dismounts. Vees have to spend 1 MP to mount and another 1 MP to dismount infantry. They can only get out at the end of the carrier's movement.

Oh, and attacks made against that Infantry unit are as if it moved 0 hexes (which is awesome if they were expensively equipped with Camo Sneak Suits).

[Col.Hengist]

Gotcha, thanks for the info Marwynn.  :)

[Marwynn]

Has anyone tried using infantry with a Riot/Bullet/Heavy Shield? The Bullet Shield's only 2kg and gives 4/4/4/4 MBEX. Seems like a relatively simple way to protect infantry.

[BirdofPrey]

Heavy Support Infantry
Motorized
5 Squads of 6 troopers (30)
Armour: Ballistic Plate, Standard
Primary: 20 Auto-Rifles
Secondary: 10 Heavy Support Lasers (2 in each squad)
Field Gun: 2 Thumper Artillery (20 shots each)

Range: 15
Damage: 25
Armour Divisor: 2
Encumbered, Cannot make Anti-'Mech attacks
Weight: 38.3 tons
Mobility: 1 MP
Cost: 9,344,000 C-Bills
BV: 187

-----------

When you positively have to hold a position. Hauling them there may be problematic, it's a full 40 tons and their 1 MP isn't going to get them anywhere fast.

There does need to be a better system for incorporating support weapons.

I am pretty sure you can only have one artillery weapon per platoon.

ok, found that.Now where does it talk about their movement and attacking? Like they all pile out of their transport. Can they shoot at something that turn?do they have to get out where the carrier stops or can they get out before it stops like a combat drop from a kharnov ?If you drop them from a vtol into the same hex as a mech can they swarm the mech that turn or does a kharnov( above the lvl of the mech) an infantry platoon and a mech bereak the stacking rules? that kind of stuff.

Dismounting sucks TBH.  Nominally, dismounting can only be done at the end of the carrier's movement and as the infantry's ONLY movement.  The infantry has a good chance of being totally screwed, and the vehicle my not have moved at full speed due to the need to place the infantry in a good spot.

My group does movement two units at a time (not really sure why my GM does this, doesn't seem to me like it speeds up gameplay), but it has the advantage that I have been able to convince the others to let my BA drop off of a mech mid movement as my two moves, and I could probably work a jump platoon dismount from an aircraft (anything else = roadburn)

[truetanker]

In our games, we mount / dismount at a -1 MP for the carrier, ormal attack hits apply, including the +1 standard to-hit bonus, their being dispersed in small groups as the vehicle is moving along until they regroup into a force. To be honest and fair, I'd make a to-hit roll for each Squad-base to see if any get hit.

TT

[Col.Hengist]

@ Birdofprey could be that he has you move 2 vehicles at the same time is for the same reason we do. The way we see it is 2 tanks equal 1 mech as far as stacking and lance formations go. Almost every game i have played with anyone we always take 2 of the same vehicle and they move together... i could be totally off on his reasoning tho. It does make the game go faster too.

[Bostwick]

Anyone else think that the wrong stats were placed in this errata? (hint: look at the damage)


http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=text&page=TechManual
It's the second to last entry.

Code: [Select]

Rifle (Federated-Barret M42B Rifle System)
          M42B (non-inferno munitions): Tech = IS (C); Class/Type = Small / Standard (B); Base Range = 1; Damage (each) = 1.11; Weight/Ammo (Shots) = 6 kg/0.3 kg (50/5); Crew = 1
          M42B (inferno munitions): Tech = IS (C); Class/Type = Small / Standard (B)F; Base Range = 1; Damage (each) = 0.82; Weight/Ammo (Shots) = 6 kg/0.3 kg (50/5); Crew = 1"

[Snake Eyes]

This may be the wrong area to post this, but,...........does anyone have a copy of the infantry platoon designer, that was posted before the forum crash.....
i think it was in XLS.

[Bostwick]

The version I have is too big to attach

[Snake Eyes]

The version I have is too big to attach

hmmm, bummer.........is it too big to email it

[Marwynn]

I am pretty sure you can only have one artillery weapon per platoon.Dismounting sucks TBH. 

You're quite right, just checked TacOps. Wow, that's something I didn't see since they used to be just one and the same (I think) with only tonnage as the main limiter.

Anyone else think that the wrong stats were placed in this errata? (hint: look at the damage)


http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=text&page=TechManual
It's the second to last entry.

Code: [Select]

Rifle (Federated-Barret M42B Rifle System)
          M42B (non-inferno munitions): Tech = IS (C); Class/Type = Small / Standard (B); Base Range = 1; Damage (each) = 1.11; Weight/Ammo (Shots) = 6 kg/0.3 kg (50/5); Crew = 1
          M42B (inferno munitions): Tech = IS (C); Class/Type = Small / Standard (B)F; Base Range = 1; Damage (each) = 0.82; Weight/Ammo (Shots) = 6 kg/0.3 kg (50/5); Crew = 1"

I'm hoping it is. It's just too insane at the moment.

[Feign]

I've always thought it was kind of silly to have to-hit range brackets at all for infantry weapons when even at their maximum effective range, most vehicular targets are still huge targets, even to the standard issue Mk1Eyeball.

The house rule I've been using is that the Short and Medium Range are determined by whichever weapon is the shorter range (unless there's only one in the squad, where it doesn't count), and Long is determined by the weapon with the longest range.  Also, instead of applying the range modifier to the to-hit roll, applying it's negative to the roll on the cluster hits table to see how many troopers hit.

Bearhunter ACs become a tad more viable, but you'll always be hitting at long range, and always have a -4 to your Cluster Hits Roll, putting your damage back down significantly.

[Bostwick]

hmmm, bummer.........is it too big to email it

Send me a PM with your email.

[Bostwick]

I'm hoping it is. It's just too insane at the moment.

I'm going to stick with the stats in XLS writen by Boilerman (it has a damage .63 for non-inferno grenades.)