Author Topic: What tech actually becomes obselete  (Read 3843 times)

AlphaMirage

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #30 on: 21 April 2024, 06:51:01 »
I mean the equipment does exist (sub, capital, and cruise missiles) but the rules for making wet Navy ships are bad. All it would take is a revision of the construction and capital weapons rules.

cray

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #31 on: 21 April 2024, 08:45:28 »
If Inner Sphere endosteel is obsolete then another technology vulnerable to obsolescence is IS double heat sinks. Unlike single heat sinks, which remain in use for combat vehicles and civilian applications, there's no reason to keep IS DHS around if you can make Clan versions.

I noticed the binary laser was mentioned, but that's described as obsolete at its introduction. It was one those Jeff Goldblum technologies. Never mind heavy PPCs, which came along far after the binary laser, a normal PPC and AC/10 are pretty competitive with it. You're getting 2 extra points of damage (admittedly reaching guaranteed headcapping levels) for less range and 16 points of heat in eras when single heat sinks were the norm.

Among Clan technologies, I'd say the ATM is pretty obsolete. It's a direct fire weapon, which puts it in a crowded field of excellent direct fire Clan weapons, like the Clan lasers, HAGs, Gauss rifle, and PPC. Most other Clan direct fire weapons aren't vulnerable to AMS like the ATM. Competing Clan missile systems - like the Clan LRM - aren't forced to use 3 different types of ammo to achieve their basic functionality. Clan LRMs also offer indirect fire and a variety of useful alternate ammos, from mines to smoke. Clan SRMs and Streak SRMs are better at crit-finding than ATMs.

Battletech doesn't have any guns that approach the size of an 8 inch cannon,

Side comment: At 200kg per shot, the Long Tom would be around 9-10 inches. At least one Clan UAC/20 was described as 200mm, which means it was only firing a couple of shells per "shot."

« Last Edit: 21 April 2024, 08:52:38 by cray »
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Hellraiser

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #32 on: 21 April 2024, 09:27:55 »
Side comment: At 200kg per shot, the Long Tom would be around 9-10 inches. At least one Clan UAC/20 was described as 200mm, which means it was only firing a couple of shells per "shot."
I believe it was the Hetzer or one of the other OG AC20's was 203mm.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #33 on: 21 April 2024, 10:22:04 »
I believe it was the Hetzer or one of the other OG AC20's was 203mm.

IIRC, the Cauldron Born A's Ultra 20 was originally described as being a 210mm gun.
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cray

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #34 on: 21 April 2024, 13:53:10 »
IIRC, the Cauldron Born A's Ultra 20 was originally described as being a 210mm gun.

That's it! Other AC/20s tend to smaller caliber. The Hetzer had a 150mm.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
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Hellraiser

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #35 on: 22 April 2024, 19:27:05 »
Yep, Per Sarna it's noted as being 203mm,  so the caliber was the one I was recalling but the Unit is the Ebon Jaguar-A.

I had been thinking it was an original AC20 but the largest I can find is 185mm.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #36 on: 22 April 2024, 20:48:59 »
The new Grey Death Legion stories describe a Regent B as having a 200mm Ultra 20.
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BrianDavion

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #37 on: 23 April 2024, 04:26:35 »


Among Clan technologies, I'd say the ATM is pretty obsolete. It's a direct fire weapon, which puts it in a crowded field of excellent direct fire Clan weapons, like the Clan lasers, HAGs, Gauss rifle, and PPC. Most other Clan direct fire weapons aren't vulnerable to AMS like the ATM. Competing Clan missile systems - like the Clan LRM - aren't forced to use 3 different types of ammo to achieve their basic functionality. Clan LRMs also offer indirect fire and a variety of useful alternate ammos, from mines to smoke. Clan SRMs and Streak SRMs are better at crit-finding than ATMs.


I'm going to disagree with you on this, with an asterix. namely that, hear me out, the clans have never really utilized ATMs very well. of the two mechs that came out in FM: Warden clans utlizing the ATM, the most important one was NOT the Savage Coyote... but the RABID COYOTE.

The ATM allows a conventional battlemech to gain a bit of flexability on the battle field, however we never really saw the clans lean into this in quite the right way. If I was a clan Khan I would have ordered ATM varients of every missile boat second liner we produced.
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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #38 on: 23 April 2024, 09:57:18 »
If you were talking about iATMs with their different ammo types, IDF capability, and Streak ability, I'd agree.  With conventional ATMs I don't really think that the flexibility is that great.
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Church14

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #39 on: 23 April 2024, 14:03:17 »
If Inner Sphere endosteel is obsolete then another technology vulnerable to obsolescence is IS double heat sinks. Unlike single heat sinks, which remain in use for combat vehicles and civilian applications, there's no reason to keep IS DHS around if you can make Clan versions.

.

Among Clan technologies, I'd say the ATM is pretty obsolete. It's a direct fire weapon, which puts it in a crowded field of excellent direct fire Clan weapons, like the Clan lasers, HAGs, Gauss rifle, and PPC. Most other Clan direct fire weapons aren't vulnerable to AMS like the ATM. Competing Clan missile systems - like the Clan LRM - aren't forced to use 3 different types of ammo to achieve their basic functionality. Clan LRMs also offer indirect fire and a variety of useful alternate ammos, from mines to smoke. Clan SRMs and Streak SRMs are better at crit-finding than ATMs.
Agreed on IS endo, DHS, and all forms of IS ferro. They are all objectively worse with no built in BV benefit. Once infrastructure is in place to support their use, they should fade.


I don’t agree on ATMs. Quick rundown:
Standard ATM12, 3 tons ammo.
368 BV, 7tons. 8 crits  8 heat

LRM15+2SRM6s, 2 tons ammo each.
338 BV, 6.5 tons, 8 slots, 13 heat

ATM12 and LRM15 are close to same damage at range, and ATM has longer range. ATM12 does a little more damage than 2 SRM6 and 1 LRM15 up close with HE.

You pay a bit extra for the extra average damage up close and a longer long range. The only downside that matters is the HE ammo being cluster 5. Indirect fire isn’t really a relevant consideration with clans.

Hellraiser

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #40 on: 23 April 2024, 14:13:58 »
Once infrastructure is in place to support their use, they should fade.

I think that is the real catch here.

The ERPPC & c-ERPPC cost the same in C-Bills per TM, but, when you look into black market rules from some sources they mention clan tech being like 4-10x or 2-20x as much as IS Tech in the 50's.

So the question is, at what point is it truly as easy to make clan tech as it is to make the same item in IS tech.
And at what point is clan tech as easy to maintain & as durable as IS tech is for the entire IS.

Originally the NAIS was able to replicate a c-ERLL crafting by hand at the cost of extreme time & $$.

Post-Wall the IS has started making some levels of Clan tech for a few designs.

But if it was truly as easy as making IS tech then we would see a complete merger of tech bases into a single table w/ all designs sporting the most efficient tech.

I thought they originally said that the 3250 jump would finally see that merger but that is still a century off.
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haesslich

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #41 on: 23 April 2024, 20:15:18 »
Are Inner Sphere LRM launchers obsolete with Clan launchers around? They weigh the same, have no minimum range, and unlike ELRM or NLRM don't give up weight or crit space over regular launchers or exotics like ATM or MML.

Minemech

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #42 on: 23 April 2024, 20:38:22 »
Are Inner Sphere LRM launchers obsolete with Clan launchers around? They weigh the same, have no minimum range, and unlike ELRM or NLRM don't give up weight or crit space over regular launchers or exotics like ATM or MML.
A Clan LRM 20 weighs 5 tons. That is before other considerations.
 Now the Inner Sphere has more professional strategies around the employment of LRM boats which will likely be retained.
« Last Edit: 23 April 2024, 20:45:33 by Minemech »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #43 on: 23 April 2024, 22:33:39 »
Are Inner Sphere LRM launchers obsolete with Clan launchers around? They weigh the same, have no minimum range, and unlike ELRM or NLRM don't give up weight or crit space over regular launchers or exotics like ATM or MML.

Given that equipping IS mechs with Clan LRM pods has become widespread in the Dark Age and IlClan eras, I think the only thing that could save the IS LRM pod is if there are any IS ammo types that aren't available to Clan launchers yet.  And even then I don't think that would be enough to save them.
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garhkal

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #44 on: 24 April 2024, 12:30:35 »
A Clan LRM 20 weighs 5 tons. That is before other considerations.
 Now the Inner Sphere has more professional strategies around the employment of LRM boats which will likely be retained.

WHich to me pushes the 'obsolessence of islrms', even more..
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OatsAndHall

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #45 on: 24 April 2024, 12:49:27 »
What if autocannons got improved to the HBS game specs damage? Would people still use them?

AC/2   5 dmg
AC/5   9 dmg
AC/10 12 dmg
AC/20 20 dmg

With those damage bands AND the ability to use specialty ammo, they'd still have a place. Well except the LB10X. That's superior to the AC/10 in everyway

Absolutely... Especially with the AC/2's range. Spitting out 5 damage at 24 hexes can't be ignored... Heck, pulling into medium range at 16 hexes would make the AC/2 nasty.

Metallgewitter

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #46 on: 24 April 2024, 13:27:45 »
A Clan LRM 20 weighs 5 tons. That is before other considerations.
 Now the Inner Sphere has more professional strategies around the employment of LRM boats which will likely be retained.

A Longbow with 4 Clantech LRM 20 launchers. Now THAT is fire support even in the knife fighting range

OatsAndHall

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #47 on: 24 April 2024, 16:06:41 »
Are Inner Sphere LRM launchers obsolete with Clan launchers around? They weigh the same, have no minimum range, and unlike ELRM or NLRM don't give up weight or crit space over regular launchers or exotics like ATM or MML.

Absolutely. Clan LRMs are half the weight, take up one less crit and you don't have to deal with the minimum.

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #48 on: 24 April 2024, 17:28:41 »
Enhanced LRMs are even more obsolete.
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garhkal

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #49 on: 24 April 2024, 22:37:42 »
Absolutely. Clan LRMs are half the weight, take up one less crit and you don't have to deal with the minimum.

I wonder, how nasty IS 'missile boats' would be, if they ALL shifted to using Clan LRMs??
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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #50 on: 24 April 2024, 22:46:31 »
Still not a match for the Night Gyr D, Nova Cat B, Kraken 3, or Mastodon D.
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Minemech

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #51 on: 25 April 2024, 07:44:03 »
Still not a match for the Night Gyr D, Nova Cat B, Kraken 3, or Mastodon D.
The Draconis Combine both fields and produces Nova Cat Bs.

OatsAndHall

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #52 on: 25 April 2024, 09:48:27 »
I wonder, how nasty IS 'missile boats' would be, if they ALL shifted to using Clan LRMs??

IME, they'd be incredibly nasty, especially given that their BV wouldn't go up that much.  You're looking at -maybe- a 100-200 BV2 jump if you swap out two IS LRM20s for their Clan equivalent.

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #53 on: 25 April 2024, 09:57:46 »
But that wouldn't be all that changes because you've suddenly got a bunch of tonnage to work with.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #54 on: 25 April 2024, 10:14:43 »
But that wouldn't be all that changes because you've suddenly got a bunch of tonnage to work with.

True, the Archer C is a vast improvement over the Archer 2R and only costs 334 more BV2.

BrianDavion

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #55 on: 26 April 2024, 03:09:41 »
I wonder, how nasty IS 'missile boats' would be, if they ALL shifted to using Clan LRMs??

depends what they did with the spare mass really.A Salamander with clan LRM 20s for example would actually be slightly tricky, simple to the the sheer AMOUNT of mass saved.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #56 on: 26 April 2024, 04:53:29 »
depends what they did with the spare mass really.A Salamander with clan LRM 20s for example would actually be slightly tricky, simple to the the sheer AMOUNT of mass saved.

You have to admit, that goes for several missile boats:
The Longbow (especially the Phoenix variant) could even use 4 LRM 20 and still have mass over. And even the smaller ones like the Cobra and Apollo would have several tons of mass left now. You could even turn the Rakshasa into a more close copy of the Timber Wolf.  Or hell give the old Javelin Clan SRM's instead os IS SRM's and you have 3 tons left.

Minemech

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #57 on: 26 April 2024, 07:08:11 »
 Yeah, I want to field the Yeoman version that arises from these changes.

niall78

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #58 on: 10 July 2024, 15:32:38 »
True obsolescence? I can't see it.

Why not sell your large laser production line to the boondocks? Same as happens today with other industries.

IS large laser might be obsolete in a house line formation. However in the arse end of the Periphery it gives you a very nice edge.

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Re: What tech actually becomes obselete
« Reply #59 on: 12 July 2024, 17:30:36 »
this. Because humanity will (eventually) keep moving, away from the expanding Inner Sphere, the easiest technology will follow first, with those explorers... (Do you want space aliens to discover ACs and LLs instead of Gauss Rifles and ERPPCs?)
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