Author Topic: Rattler and support crew and other questions.  (Read 859 times)

I am Belch II

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Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« on: 25 June 2024, 21:26:08 »
Im getting a Rattler Mobile Structure made for me and I want to add it to my forces.
I want to make sure it has the proper manpower and support for the unit. Making my army with all the Battletech units that I own.
I assume the Crew is the all the support personal it needs. Does it need any extra like techs and support personal for it?? I assume it would be the same as a Dropship or Jumpship.
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Zematus737

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #1 on: 26 June 2024, 13:29:57 »
Minimum crew table is in TO:AUE pg. 80.  There's too much text to copy paste and it is just easier to reference the source, because during unit construction you have to figure something like this:

Minimum Crew Needs = (Base Crew Minimum x Structure
Size [in hexes]) + Minimum Gunners + Minimum Officers

I am Belch II

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #2 on: 26 June 2024, 13:38:08 »
Thanks will look it up again
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Daryk

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #3 on: 26 June 2024, 18:09:03 »
Under RAW, I think the only crews that count for maintenance are Large Craft ones.  That's a long way of saying "I think they need a tech team too."

I am Belch II

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #4 on: 30 June 2024, 11:16:04 »
Thanks for all the updates.
When I get my Rattler it's not for a Merc Unit. It's for my personal army.
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idea weenie

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #5 on: 30 June 2024, 21:57:49 »
Thanks for all the updates.
When I get my Rattler it's not for a Merc Unit. It's for my personal army.

With a Mammoth Dropship to haul it around?

For the tech team you could add a few Foot Infantry quarters to represent an onboard tech team that handles more than the regular maintenance..

I am Belch II

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #6 on: 07 July 2024, 08:52:03 »
With a Mammoth Dropship to haul it around?

For the tech team you could add a few Foot Infantry quarters to represent an onboard tech team that handles more than the regular maintenance..

I wonder if the Rattler could be taken apart so it could be transportable. Would need a very large door to fit the thing. Weight of the Rattler
isn't that heavy. 
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #7 on: 07 July 2024, 09:35:35 »
It uses seven hexes just like grounded spheroid dropship, so it must be very big.

I wonder that it would be transportable but isn't it ultimately a kind of building right? Then perhaps it would be not entirely impossible?

Daryk

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #8 on: 07 July 2024, 10:10:20 »
The seven hexes covered by ALL DropShips is an abstraction.  Going by its dimensions, a Mammoth would be 9 hexes wide.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #9 on: 07 July 2024, 10:23:03 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4902/rattler-mobile-fortress-mk-ii-anti-aerospace

Oh, I found that the MkII version is about 4,500 tons. The weight seems fine as long as you got the heavy dropship. The real problem is find the dropship with enough door and cargo space size.

Also, i remember that some naval support vehicle that is wet navy ships are divided to some parts and shipped to the other planet. At least someone did it with Argo, which is about 30,000 tons ship. It's surely heavier than rattler so I won't be surprised rattler have the capability to be split into multiple parts and could be assembled afterwards.

Hellraiser

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #10 on: 09 July 2024, 03:12:58 »
Rattler is 90m across & 42 meters tall.

I doubt any DS door is that big.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #11 on: 09 July 2024, 06:05:51 »
The Mammoth is the only ship that might have one that big, I think...

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #12 on: 09 July 2024, 09:46:53 »
Rattler is 90m across & 42 meters tall.

I doubt any DS door is that big.



As long as it's an one piece without got splitted. And we all know that there are some instance that such a big construct were delivered by divided by some parts and carried by separated dropships. Since OP wants the own rattler, it's nothing wrong to design it to be easier to divide it into multiple parts for easier maintenance and transportation.

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #13 on: 09 July 2024, 19:37:43 »
The Mammoth is the only ship that might have one that big, I think...

Looking at the dimensions & the pic of the Mammoth....  its a big "Might".

But at least it's "close" to what would be needed.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

idea weenie

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #14 on: 09 July 2024, 19:45:08 »
Rattler is 90m across & 42 meters tall.

I doubt any DS door is that big.

I'd worry about the floor bowing out, as the Engines are on the sides of the Dropship while the Rattler is in the middle.  If there isn't enough room for structural components underneath the main bay for the Rattler, then the Dropship will form a 'U' when it launches.

Daryk

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #15 on: 09 July 2024, 19:47:37 »
I don't think it weighs enough for that...

idea weenie

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #16 on: 09 July 2024, 20:16:29 »
I don't think it weighs enough for that...

I was thinking more like the leverage.  The Rattler is taking up a 3 hex wide surface inside the Dropship, and in order to go into the Dropship the Rattler has to climb up a ramp.  What is the maximum height ramp that a Rattler could climb up?  The space underneath that ramp is the maximum amount of room that the Dropship's structure has in order to be able to support the Rattler.  If there is not enough room underneath the Rattler to fit a Dropship engine, then that means the Dropship engines have to be placed on the side of the Dropship.  So when the Dropship is taking off you have thrust along the edges of the Dropship and a weight in the center.


Real-life example:
Take a yardstick or meterstick, put it so just its ends are supported by a pair of chairs, and place or hang a weight in the center.  The chairs represent the Dropship engines in operation, and the weight represents the Rattler inside the Dropship.  You will see that the center of the meterstick will sag a bit.  That sagging represents what will happen to the Dropship's floor.


If the floor is thick enough then there is minimal bowing.  But in order for the floor to be thick enough then the Rattler has to go up a ramp in order to get inside, which puts limits on how tall the ramp can be.

You might be able to get away with having the engines angle so their exhaust goes towards the center, so the engines provide an outwards force as well as a thrusting force.

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #17 on: 10 July 2024, 00:27:57 »
I am reminded of the Rapier destroyer at twice the size of the Rattler being transported in a "modified" Mammoth cargo bay.

So, I'm feeling like it's "possible" now if not flat out easy since I'm not sure if that "modified" is for the size of the ship, or, if it was to allow blue water deployment,  or,  BOTH.

But if it was just the blue water then in theory a Rattler should be able to do it.

In width anyway, not sure about height still but looking at what I think the doors are, its probably, tall enough,  BARELY.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #18 on: 10 July 2024, 04:18:19 »
Again, you guys are not need to ship it while keep it stay in one piece. Why not to just divide it into several parts? You don't really need to care for the size of the door actually.

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #19 on: 10 July 2024, 15:33:50 »
Again, you guys are not need to ship it while keep it stay in one piece. Why not to just divide it into several parts? You don't really need to care for the size of the door actually.

That is fine for a 1-time delivery I suppose.

But rebuilding & taking something apart over & over isn't likely good for a combat unit. the size of a building.

The shear effort in technical crews to do so would mean a corporations worth of mechanics.

And nothing says it has easily modular parts.

The only example we even have of something like that was a single space station IIRC.

And I don't even want to think about the time to do it if you wanted to use this thing in combat anytime this year.

Something the size of a Rattler is very much, IMO, a "build on site only" kind of item.

IIRC there is fluff for one of the really big Subs or other Naval ships being that same issue where they didn't just ship them out but each had to be built on the world where it was to be deployed but I don't recall which unit it was.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #20 on: 10 July 2024, 17:04:12 »
That is fine for a 1-time delivery I suppose.

But rebuilding & taking something apart over & over isn't likely good for a combat unit. the size of a building.

The shear effort in technical crews to do so would mean a corporations worth of mechanics.

And nothing says it has easily modular parts.

The only example we even have of something like that was a single space station IIRC.

And I don't even want to think about the time to do it if you wanted to use this thing in combat anytime this year.

Something the size of a Rattler is very much, IMO, a "build on site only" kind of item.

IIRC there is fluff for one of the really big Subs or other Naval ships being that same issue where they didn't just ship them out but each had to be built on the world where it was to be deployed but I don't recall which unit it was.


You better do this anyways, if you don't want to build it from scratch and abandon it after a use all the times. It's quite acceptable to take the burden of the reassembly because of this, and since it's similar to a small fortified building it's not so bad news that it needs some time to be battle ready. At least it is obvious that it's far faster than build it from scratch - for you will need about weeks or even months to make the factory for that and an another weeks and months to actually build it. Perhaps the reassembly process takes a week or two at most, on the worst case? But even so it would be the faster way to do.

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #21 on: 10 July 2024, 18:06:17 »
Why does it have to be abandoned?

The OP already stated it's not for a Merc unit  (Not that they have any chance of acquiring one).

It's something for his personal army of minis.

Nothing in canon says they have any modular ability.

It's a defensive fortification for a Castle Brian, it's not meant to go anywhere.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

I am Belch II

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #22 on: 10 July 2024, 19:34:12 »
Yeah I know the Rattler isn't exactly a Mercenaries Unit, but for my army I want it in and supply it proper.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #23 on: 10 July 2024, 22:19:52 »
Why does it have to be abandoned?

The OP already stated it's not for a Merc unit  (Not that they have any chance of acquiring one).

It's something for his personal army of minis.

Nothing in canon says they have any modular ability.

It's a defensive fortification for a Castle Brian, it's not meant to go anywhere.


Does not means the mercenary doesn't looks like they have to be pinned to a specific planet. Neither is actually defend a castle brian. Thus they have to abandon it each time they have any mission that uses it. Although they may have some on their base.

Also while it does not says anything for modular but it does not means it needs to lack this either, nor their own 'rattler' does. For they are either got one from somewhere or made their own, so how they begin with having one? There was mentioned that a ship longer than a rattler has got separated and shipped by three dropships then reassembled to elsewhere, so why not for the smaller rattler?


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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #24 on: 10 July 2024, 23:58:08 »
so how they begin with having one?

There was mentioned that a ship longer than a rattler has got separated and shipped by three dropships then reassembled to elsewhere, so why not for the smaller rattler?

I don't see having one as something a Merc unit can pull off given the only ones left in canon are on Terra.

What ship is that?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #25 on: 11 July 2024, 00:31:45 »
I remember that argo does. Although it seems to be far from integrated modular design for nothing mentions this at all so the reassemble takes some works indeed. I do think that the integrated modular design is not a must, though, but it's no secret that it does needs extensive works that I cannot deny. I just think that it's still better than make it from scratch.

Anyway the problem is the volume, not weight, so as long as the issue on the volume is solved it would be fine. And I bet that someone crazy enough to deploy such a massive thing surely have a dropship for this even if it needs to have a specialized one. After all it needs some facility(even a minor one) to reassemble at best.

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #26 on: 11 July 2024, 04:55:36 »
Under RAW, I think the only crews that count for maintenance are Large Craft ones.  That's a long way of saying "I think they need a tech team too."

Late to the book-dive, but anyways: According to Campaign Operations, p. 190f. explicitly states that all maintenance on Mobile Structures is covered / performed by the crew and can not be augmented with additional tech teams, same as warships, dropships, large naval support vehicles, etc. So no need for additional quarters. Maintenance requirement is one hour per hex, btw.

As for shipping - you can fluff it as you want, but unless I'm mistaken the rules only require enough cargo tonnage capacity and one door for shipping. Campaign Operations (again) has a small section about combat units being shipped as cargo, that halves load times for self-powered units, with the only mentioned exception being BattleMechs, as the book states that commercial cargo doors are usually not high enough to allow Mechs to walk out, thus normal cargo load times apply. That's the only mentioning of the quality of doors I could find.

Personally, I would ship mobile structures as normal cargo and fluff the dropship as specially modified to handle such large cargo. (Extra high landing stilts that allow for a large cargo door / elevator on the bottom of the Mammoth that can lower the Rattler down, for example. Eliminating the need for a ramp.)
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Daryk

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #27 on: 11 July 2024, 08:06:12 »
I stand corrected, thanks for looking that up! :)

And for those asking about ships in Mammoths, it was indeed the Rapier: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rapier_(Naval_Vessel_class)

TWO per Mammoth, in fact.

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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #28 on: 11 July 2024, 16:18:57 »
Always glad when my obsession with CO pays off.

And while I'm at it:

Depending on where and how you (un)load a Rattler, it can take several days of uninterrupted work to get it done - moving it without port facilities will take 75 hour of work (or up to 375, if you're really unprepared for the job), while using dedicated loading facilities can speed it up to under 19 hours. That's enough time / work to include some kind of reassembly. And the rules are very clear that the unloading times include much more than just the time needed to physically remove stuff from the ship.

Completely overthinking the art: The Mammoth is a big ship. It's diameter (at the widest part, I assume) is given as 277m, that's a circumference of 870 meters. looking at the size of the cargo doors below the engine gondolas, those might just be big enough to actually fit a Rattler through (or maybe it's a bit to narrow, but within reasonable customization range. You may need to remove the turrets, but that's where that loading time comes in again.
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Re: Rattler and support crew and other questions.
« Reply #29 on: 12 July 2024, 00:08:09 »
I remember that argo does. Although it seems to be far from integrated modular design for nothing mentions this at all so the reassemble takes some works indeed. I do think that the integrated modular design is not a must, though, but it's no secret that it does needs extensive works that I cannot deny. I just think that it's still better than make it from scratch.

Anyway the problem is the volume, not weight, so as long as the issue on the volume is solved it would be fine. And I bet that someone crazy enough to deploy such a massive thing surely have a dropship for this even if it needs to have a specialized one. After all it needs some facility(even a minor one) to reassemble at best.

So I had to go read up on the Argo.
  It's definitely not modular.

The one that got transported in pieces was a 1 off.
The ship had been damaged so badly it was due going to be scuttled.
Instead a Naval Merc unit sold off some mechs they had captured & did some back room deal shenanigans to buy the old hulk instead of it being scuttled & sunk.

It was already ripped to shreds so they cut it into sections (not modular, just flat out cut it to pieces).
Shipped it, and then, when it got to where they wanted it, it took them 3 months of repairs to get it seaworthy again.   (Honestly, I'm surprised it was that quick, LOL)

When the unit was due to move, the planetary government was trying to buy it off them so it wouldn't have to be moved again.


But like I said in my first post, the Rattler appears about the same size to fit in a Mammoth door w/o being taken apart.
Assuming someone could somehow get a Rattler off the WoB or the RotS government.  (yeah right) 
I do wonder if any of them somehow survived on any TH world outside of the dozen on Terra.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo