Author Topic: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?  (Read 348 times)

Frantic Pryde

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 129
TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« on: 05 July 2024, 16:01:36 »
So, I have praised the balance of the PV system here a few times. While I do think it does it a good job, I was recently thinking that maybe TMM 0-1 mechs and vehicles should get a points decrease across the board?

I tend to essentially completely avoid anything that is TMM 0-1 that isn't setup as a sniper or that also has JMPS. I know that they are almost certainly going to die, often in turn 1-2 if they have a decent attack. I don't have this concern with any unit TMM2+, so I tend to use units with TMM 2+ almost exclusively.

I have played in 7 or so Alpha Strike tournaments (mostly Wolfnet 350) and I have noticed this same trend in top placing lists.

Anyone else notice, or feel the same?

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25863
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« Reply #1 on: 05 July 2024, 23:36:39 »
What size table are you playing on, and how much terrain/obstacles on them?

My group play on a 5'x6' table, usually with either hills & forests or buildings, or both. Accordingly, there's space & time for maneuver - the slow heavies & assaults can usually see off the faster lights & mediums that might come knocking. Plus you can use your fast movers to preoccupy the enemy while the heavies move up.

Also depends on the size. Had one game where a ComStar level II of heavies & assaults took the concentrated fire of two Clan Stars, ranging from mediums to assaults, for several turns, which meant when the other Level II turned up the Clanners were well weakened. Yes, the first Level II died, but was well spent.

* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1834
Re: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« Reply #2 on: 06 July 2024, 03:32:30 »
I think by the numbers low tmm units are often UNDERCOSTED, for 2 reasons.  First, standstill for -1 to hit (but if you have tmm1, you lose it), when you look at the bell curve, is really good for killing TMM 2+ stuff.  At base 4 skill medium range, you need an 8 to hit tmm2 and a tmm2 needs a 7 to hit tmm1.  But, with stand still bringing the numbers to 7 and 6, you gain more benefit shifting 8 to 7 then they do shifting 7 to 6.

The second thing that makes low TMM undercosted is table size. Most games dont play on big enough tables, so both sides are in range immediately, and often in medium range on turn 2.  So if smaller tables are more common then larger, the low move associated with low TMM usually isn't that big of a deal.

Single attack versus multiple attack also plays a part in value determinations, as does unit counts allowed.  High TMM stuff usually has less armor, while low TMM stuff usually has more armor.  If the smaller, higher TMM stuff can't massively outnumber an opponemt, then the movement they pay for doesn't pay dividends in extra rear damage from each small high TMM unit getting behind the tmm0-1 unit.  Also, a low TMM unit with a bunch of armor is a known quantity, its not 'swingy' like high TMM can be.  Sometimes a TMM4 unit dies on the first 4 damage hit after all, even if that hit needed a 10... But a slow, extra armor unit never dies on the first 4 damage hit, despite only needing 6s or 7s to hit it.

Lance Leader

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 93
Re: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« Reply #3 on: 06 July 2024, 17:48:11 »
First, standstill for -1 to hit (but if you have tmm1, you lose it), when you look at the bell curve, is really good for killing TMM 2+ stuff.  At base 4 skill medium range, you need an 8 to hit tmm2 and a tmm2 needs a 7 to hit tmm1.  But, with stand still bringing the numbers to 7 and 6, you gain more benefit shifting 8 to 7 then they do shifting 7 to 6.

  Nice, I should really try more "stand and deliver" tactics next time I'm facing a horde of high TMM gnats. 

jairb

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 91
Re: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« Reply #4 on: 06 July 2024, 20:39:15 »
What size table are you playing on, and how much terrain/obstacles on them?

My group play on a 5'x6' table, usually with either hills & forests or buildings, or both. Accordingly, there's space & time for maneuver - the slow heavies & assaults can usually see off the faster lights & mediums that might come knocking. Plus you can use your fast movers to preoccupy the enemy while the heavies move up.

Also depends on the size. Had one game where a ComStar level II of heavies & assaults took the concentrated fire of two Clan Stars, ranging from mediums to assaults, for several turns, which meant when the other Level II turned up the Clanners were well weakened. Yes, the first Level II died, but was well spent.

The comment "mostly Wolfnet350" indicates a bias towards small tables meant to get directly into the action.  On those tables, the only way TMM 0-1 units will get good terrain is if the player pays close attention to terrain placement to support deployment for the mission.  The good news is that under those rules, you do have the option to position terrain to facilitate such planning.

Normie

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« Reply #5 on: 06 July 2024, 23:26:28 »
I think the points are fine for the most part, and I wouldn't adjust them at the moment. I love trying out new formats, I've played through the current DFA wargaming, wolfnet 350, & BTCC missions, and after I play all the missions in the beta, I'm going to look at an alpha strike open tournament (at the Michigan GT). They are all unique and it makes it harder to suggest sweeping changes.   


Frantic Pryde

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 129
Re: TMM 0-1 Mechs Overcosted?
« Reply #6 on: 10 July 2024, 14:14:37 »
I recant. :cool:
I put my theory to the test and played some TMM1 units in a few games this weekend. I do find there is this sharp jump in survivability once you factor in cover. A TMM2 mech in woods or in cover has an average target number of 9 to hit, where a TMM1 mech would be an 8. Once you push past 8, the chances of hitting drop down pretty sharply.
That said, I'm not sure it warrants a price hike. Overall, there were some outliers, but most of the mechs I ran seemed to be acceptable for their points.

I think my play style and the mission based games I usually play is a big part of my perspective now that I think about it. A 12" sprint at best isn't going to be getting you a lot of objective points and makes positioning more important. Especially on tables larger than 4'x3'. 

 

Register