Talk to me about MML's

[Maingunnery]

Overall, this thread may just have inspired me to pay more conscious attention to avoiding mixed launcher types on the same platform in the future. That does in particular mean no LRM or SRM combos with MMLs -- either I'm a designated long- or short-range hitter or I'm not, and if I am I can bring more useful stuff for the same tonnage than "just in case" explosive ammo that's for the most part just sitting in my bins waiting to be blown up because it's not for the range bands I want to be primarily fighting at. While if I'm not...well, what would I be doing with "specialist" launchers in the first place, then?

There is a little trick you might want to consider. Recently I designed a heavy omnimech, one of the configs was for LRMs. I then got the idea to use two large LRM launchers and two very small MML launchers. I would always fire the MMLs first to trigger AMS systems, which would allow more of my LRMs to hit the target then if I had gone for only big LRM launchers. These MMLs combined with my MLs do make an effective shot range combo.

Except as time goes on and technology becomes more and more complicated it becomes harder and harder to do that.  Using the aerospace example, there is no way anyone could make a modern aircraft in their garage because there is an enormous tangle of systems with an enormous variety of specializations from pure software (the amount of code written for the F-22 and F-35 is staggering) to pure hardware and everything in between.  Even smaller systems like guns and missiles are enormously complicated, and that trend is only increasing.  More advanced design software does make it somewhat easier, but even so there are still an enormous variety of specializations required and there is no way a few people could pull something like that off for a complicated system like the MML.

Well there is one thing to consider, MMLs are based upon old and highly available technology (LRM/SRM). Likely the real innovation is the internal layout of the MML launcher.

[UnLimiTeD]

As many here have said, the multi-missile launchers really thrive on their ammo.
For the clans, the system has been designed around potential iATMs in universe, allowing very long range plinking, short range devastation, Inferno applications and the way awesome Pulse Warheads, in an accurate and ammo-conserving package.
The MML is just a large SRM rack that happens to be able to fire long range ammo.
a 9pack of Inferno or TC warheads beats any mediumlaser for potential tactical application; and let's be honest, for raw firepower in it's range band and heat levels, nothing beats medium lasers.

[martian]

There is a little trick you might want to consider. Recently I designed a heavy omnimech, one of the configs was for LRMs. I then got the idea to use two large LRM launchers and two very small MML launchers. I would always fire the MMLs first to trigger AMS systems, which would allow more of my LRMs to hit the target then if I had gone for only big LRM launchers. These MMLs combined with my MLs do make an effective shot range combo.

Sorry, but unless it has been errated, the defending player chooses which flight of incoming missiles his AMS engages. So he will always choose to engage the large flight of LRMs instead of those few missiles from MML launcher, regardless that you have announced your MMLs first.

[A. Lurker]

There is a little trick you might want to consider. Recently I designed a heavy omnimech, one of the configs was for LRMs. I then got the idea to use two large LRM launchers and two very small MML launchers. I would always fire the MMLs first to trigger AMS systems, which would allow more of my LRMs to hit the target then if I had gone for only big LRM launchers. These MMLs combined with my MLs do make an effective shot range combo.

That doesn't even work.

  If, in a single Weapon Attack Phase, more than one missile weapon successfully strikes the target in the attack direction covered by the firing arc where an AMS is mounted, the defending player can choose which missile weapon to inflict the modifier against.

So you actually can't throw a small attack at your target first as a "decoy" to draw the AMS away from the bigger followup salvos -- the defender gets to see what's actually going to hit out of all the missile attacks happening over the entire phase, pick whichever of those he or she wants (usually the one with the highest incoming damage potential, barring special considerations), and apply the AMS specifically against that one.

Of course, what you can try to do is run the AMS ammo bin dry using only the small racks before opening up with the big ones for the first time. But then I'd say that if the AMS has kept you from doing damage with them for 12+ turns because you didn't even bother to fire because it was there, it's done its job quite spectacularly already. ;)

[Coldwyn]

I flipped through some TROs in search of stuff with a SRM6/LRM10 mix. There´s enough of it in the tech level 1 bracket. All of those older units would benefit from witching over to MMLs, maybe 3xMML5. You get more hits and more damage out of it (ok, more heat, too) whilst keeping the ammo tonnage untouched. Especially the SRM bracket improved quite a bit. Also, there´re more individual flights to engage AMS with.
Take a look at the Stalker, for example. 2x LRM10, 2x SRM6, swapping to either 6x MML5 or 4x MML7 simply adds to the design.
Dedicated missile boatds like the heavy LRM carrier would suffer, though.

[HazMeat]

You are looking at ATMs wrong.  They are not long range weapons with a short range option, but devastating close combat weapons that can also be used at long range even if they are not terribly impressive there.  This makes them a great way to slip some extra bracketing options into what is otherwise a primarily long range design like the Warhammer IIC 4 which uses them to ramp up damage in close combat while the ERPPCs lay down lots of hurt at long range.

I do see MML that way, but am less familiar with ATM since it's clan tech.  I was thinking of ER ammo in particular because it's the only one I see to offer something that clan-standard LRMs and/or Streak SRMs don't do just as well or even better; unless I've a use for that extra range, other options look dramatically better to me.  To be fair, I'm really not much a fan of most missile systems in general, and I should have included a disclaimer earlier: I greatly value feeling free to be very liberal with weapons fire, so if it doesn't do anything much different from simply allocating damage and/or otherwise offer something that beams don't, I'll pass on that, thank you.  I like IDF capability, and love Inferno, NARC, (especially iNARC with its ECM/ECCM, Haywire and Nemesis!) and to a lesser extent Artemis V's TN bonus and Streak's unique featureset, but for just blowing things up my go-to is some sort of PPC and Medium Laser.  (Well, for battlemechs, anyway.  I like massive missile massacre for combustion-powered armor, especially in combination with large autocannon.)  The only thing ATMs offer is extended reach, so far as I can tell- so dramatically extended, in fact, that I'm thinking of it as geared toward a very long-range-oriented 'mech like dedicated LRM boats.  If the ammo were in half-ton lots of 60 missiles and/or full-ton lots of 120, I'd consider it very viable for that role.  As-is, I don't really see it as good for much of anything since all standard ATMs do is allocate damage directly, and other weapons do that just as well without the fuss of 3 very heavy ammo types to try to predict consumption of. 

I'm even less familiar with iATMs, so I looked it up on sarna.net and my first-blush impression is that they actually look very, very juicy.  I thought they had Artemis V instead of Artemis IV bonuses, which I'd also find rather nice simply for the to-hit bonus, but apparently it's actually Streak-style and without costing extra weight over standard ATM systems!  Well, there goes my ammo efficiency and firepower concerns!  Oh, what's this?  Improved Magpulse are like the hybrid standard/inferno SRMs I've long dreamed of having? [drool] Oh, there are also Improved Inferno whose reach leapfrogs the Clan Streak bonus?  Wow, TWO types of Inferno Streaks, AND with the MML's "it does LRMs too!" thing, but with Streak efficiency, ATM reach instead of the high-tech lack of minimum range, and it still comes in a little 3-tube size that can fit on almost any machine?  Wow. 

Wait, this is supposed to be about MMLs. :-[  For fluffy purposes, I really like them as an upgrade from SRMs.  Trading a wee little bit of power for the option of bringing any LRM ammo type is usually a no-brainer.  I generally prefer ML over SRMs on a battlemech, (and the bracketing efficiency of LRMs with ML makes that comparison extend to MML use IMO) the "bread and butter" classics and/or some new PPC types looking much more appealing IMO if I just want to blow stuff up.  If I want to use fancy new tech I'll consider iNARC for its really fun and unique pods, so MML make sense as well due to NARC and Inferno more than making up for the loss of lasers' advantages. 

If I were to come up with a new weapon... in order to justify adding more stats to the game rules and reduce burden of trying to balance similar systems against each other, I'd want it to offer something more unique and fun to fiddle around with than just more direct damage options with ordinary ranges and no TN mods that would help make it feel specialised.   MML aren't really great for that, boiling down to new SRM rack sizes with modest LRM capability added to help close the gap with hot weapons for bracketing efficiency. 

[Diablo48]

The current small, by comparison to Boeing, NASA, Lockheed, etc, companies creating civilian spacecraft would probably disagree. The solar powered airplane crossing the united states would disagree.

The ability for man to innovate has never been constrained to just the large. Heck, the IBM PC was made possible because they knew they were too big and set up a stand alone team in another state to work on it.

Yes, but those are dedicated companies with lots of financial backing, not a couple of people in their garage.

If I'm looking at a "one short-range launcher with one ton of ammo" scenario in isolation, I'll still take the Clan SRM 6 -- as you say, the maximum damage potential is higher, the average damage is at least comparable even taking the ATM's integral Artemis into account, and by the time I've expended fifteen salvos chances aren't so bad that I won't feel a particularly burning need for five more one way or the other.

ATMs, and MMLs for that matter, really need multiple available ammo slots to draw from to come into their own, something the more specialized launcher types don't have to deal with so much save for endurance purposes (and then that's mainly the larger LRM racks). Sure, nothing explicitly prohibits having only a single bin and just going "meh, I'll simply load what I think I'll need for the mission and then cope" -- but that's kind of wasting most of the launcher's tactical potential. So in general I'd not be comparing a single ATM 3 to a single SRM 6; I'd be looking at an ATM 3 plus two tons of ammo (maybe three, though by that point I'd want more than one launcher as well in order to burn through all that in a reasonable span of time...which then mean yet more weight invested in that system) vs. an SRM 6 that can squeak by on one.

The point was weight/damage efficiency, and you totally ignored the two heat which is a full ton of extra DHS for the SRMs.  If you scale that up then the extra ammo capacity of the ATM makes it easier to mount more launchers without needing more ammo than the SRMs.  For example, if you have 3 launchers then you want two or three tons of ammo for either launcher and the ATMs can use ER rounds while still being competitive with the SRMs in close combat.

I do see MML that way, but am less familiar with ATM since it's clan tech.  I was thinking of ER ammo in particular because it's the only one I see to offer something that clan-standard LRMs and/or Streak SRMs don't do just as well or even better; unless I've a use for that extra range, other options look dramatically better to me.  To be fair, I'm really not much a fan of most missile systems in general, and I should have included a disclaimer earlier: I greatly value feeling free to be very liberal with weapons fire, so if it doesn't do anything much different from simply allocating damage and/or otherwise offer something that beams don't, I'll pass on that, thank you.  I like IDF capability, and love Inferno, NARC, (especially iNARC with its ECM/ECCM, Haywire and Nemesis!) and to a lesser extent Artemis V's TN bonus and Streak's unique featureset, but for just blowing things up my go-to is some sort of PPC and Medium Laser.  (Well, for battlemechs, anyway.  I like massive missile massacre for combustion-powered armor, especially in combination with large autocannon.)

Ok, let's run the numbers.  Once you start paying for DHS (which you will with your love of energy weapons) the Clan ERML weighs 3.5 tons, occupies 6 crits, and does 7 damage at 15 hexes.  The ATM 3 comes out to the same weight, takes one less crit (crits get much more efficient with larger launchers), and does about the same damage at 9 hexes with HE rounds, however if you scale things up it also starts gaining the ability to fight at other ranges which means it can contribute to your long range arsenal as well which the ERML cannot do.  Also, while the damage at 27 hexes is not great it can force someone out of cover or at least soften them up before you close into range of ERLLs, ERPPCs, and the like which is extremely useful against assault 'Mechs which like to dig in and wait for you to come to them.  ATMs can also start shaving weight off their ammo supplies because you usually only really need HE and ER rounds in significant quantities, and even then you rarely need all that many salvos of HE rounds because fights that close tend to end very quickly.

The only thing ATMs offer is extended reach, so far as I can tell- so dramatically extended, in fact, that I'm thinking of it as geared toward a very long-range-oriented 'mech like dedicated LRM boats.  If the ammo were in half-ton lots of 60 missiles and/or full-ton lots of 120, I'd consider it very viable for that role.  As-is, I don't really see it as good for much of anything since all standard ATMs do is allocate damage directly, and other weapons do that just as well without the fuss of 3 very heavy ammo types to try to predict consumption of.

This is simply wrong.  The reach of ATMs is not why you bring them, it is the crushing damage of HE rounds in close combat with some long range bracketing thrown in for free unlike lasers.  This is very clear when you look at the damage/ton of the various missiles with ER rounds doing 60 (or 63 for the -9), standards doing 120 (or 126), and HE doing 180 (or 192) which is fairly well in line with other weapons like SRMs which get either 200 for the -2 and -4 or 180 for the -6, 120 for LRMs and the various Gauss weapons, and 100 for Autocannons (except the -2 which gets 90).  Advanced and experimental weapons generally do even worse with most getting around 80 damage per ton, although there is a lot of variation there with everything from nothing (Tear Gas SRMs) to truly insane (the LTC can do close to a thousand damage to a giant pile of BA with a single shot, and that is without breaking out nukes).

[A. Lurker]

This is simply wrong.  The reach of ATMs is not why you bring them, it is the crushing damage of HE rounds in close combat with some long range bracketing thrown in for free unlike lasers.

Um, no. I mean, you've made it clear that that's why you bring them...but, bluntly, not everyone's going to agree and that doesn't automatically make them objectively wrong, either.

I for one am still not particularly seeing that "crushing damage" myself and consider HE just one part of the package. And not even necessarily the most important one -- in my experience, HE is generally the ammo type that comes into play dead last (if at all) due to its limited range, so any "crushing" it does is more likely due to the rest of my arsenal, including the other two ammo types, having done much of the work for it already than specifically to that one extra point per missile.

[Stinger]

I always like to point out that MML5s make great replacements for SRM 6s.  At the loss of a single 2 point cluster, you gain essentially an LRM 5 (though, obviously, you need an extra ton to make full use of the flexibility). 

The MML provides a distinct advantage on any mechs that make use of both short and long range missiles.  Examples that come to mind are Dervish DV-9D vs. the DV-7D.  Drop the streak 2s and the LRM 10s and swap them with 4 MML-5s.  Slight loss of damage due to splitting the LRMs but a huge increase in close range punch, considering this also frees up room for 2 more MLs.

The other example that comes to mind would be a mech such as the Quickdraw.  Though there are no MML variants, with both an SRM 4 and an LRM 10, you could swap that with a single MML-9.  Using an actual example, take the QKD-5M.  Drop the OS-SRM4 and the LRM10 and ammo, give it an MML9, a ton of SRM and a ton of LRM, and you still have 1 extra ton left over, while only losing 1 point of long range damage.  This is a drastic increase in short range damage, and you get more than 1 shot from that SRM launcher.

There are numerous more examples, but I don't want to get into them.

There is one other distinct advantage to the MML, and that is BV.  An MML 5 has a BV of 45.  An LRM 5 has a BV of 45. The ammo both have something like a BV of  6.  This works essentially the same for all the MMLs compared to the equivalent LRMs. Essentially, you get your SRM launcher for free, BV speaking, but not tonnage speaking. 

Lets do some quick math on that SRM-4 and LRM-10 swap again.  BV of SRM4 = 39.  BV of LRM 10 = 90.  BV of MML 9 = 86.  SRM4+LRM10+2 Tons of Ammo = 9 Tons.  MML9+ 2 Tons of Ammo = 8 tons.  So for less tonnage, you also save 43 BV. 

It is a great increase in short range damage, a small hit to long range damage, but you save a ton and the BV cost of the SRM launcher.  MMLs are win-win all around, IMHO.

[Sabelkatten]

IIRC the absolutely biggest BV break you can possibly get is the ATM3 (about a 50% rebate), but MML3s aren't that far behind (40% or so).

[A. Lurker]

Lets do some quick math on that SRM-4 and LRM-10 swap again.  BV of SRM4 = 39.  BV of LRM 10 = 90.  BV of MML 9 = 86.  SRM4+LRM10+2 Tons of Ammo = 9 Tons.  MML9+ 2 Tons of Ammo = 8 tons.  So for less tonnage, you also save 43 BV. 

It is a great increase in short range damage, a small hit to long range damage, but you save a ton and the BV cost of the SRM launcher.  MMLs are win-win all around, IMHO.

To be fair, that analysis kind of overlooks or at least plays down any and all circumstances under which the original would simply be firing both launchers in the same turn, either at the same target or at two different ones; trading in five tubes isn't actually an unmitigated bonus that way. In terms of maximum possible total damage the MML actually only breaks even (though that's in part simply due to picking specifically the 9, which tubes-per-ton-wise is the least efficient MML rack there is).

[Wildonion]

The other example that comes to mind would be a mech such as the Quickdraw.  Though there are no MML variants, with both an SRM 4 and an LRM 10, you could swap that with a single MML-9.  Using an actual example, take the QKD-5M.  Drop the OS-SRM4 and the LRM10 and ammo, give it an MML9, a ton of SRM and a ton of LRM, and you still have 1 extra ton left over, while only losing 1 point of long range damage.  This is a drastic increase in short range damage, and you get more than 1 shot from that SRM launcher.

Shhh! Don't give away my favorite weapon swap! People might start using the Quickdraw, leaving less spare parts for me. Bad enough that it got good MWO art.

[HazMeat]

Thanks, Diablo.  I see the short range similarly to how Lurker sees it, so I tend to not see that capability as very appealing, so specialising in what the ATMs do well is not really something I tend to think about.  Actually taking a closer look, they do it well enough that if I ever try to do it I'll first consider ATMs as part of the armament.  For clan tech the MPL is kinda pushing the range a bit close for me, and I mostly like their MPL because the pulse bonus effectively give it a short range of 8 hexes and a medium range of 12.  Between that bias and my distaste for Heavy Lasers, I just glossed over ATM HE when I saw the range.  I disagree re: ammo damage, though.  I'm not eager to drag in comparisons to ammo used for very different things than direct damage delivered by unit-targeting fire, nor try to justify my arbitrary standards, but I consider Streaks' 180 to 200 damage per ton to be the benchmark for anything with similar or lesser range bands, 80-ish per ton for anything looking like LRMs in purpose, and about 100-ish per ton for anything in between.  I'll grant that ATMs deserve a break there due to specialisation of the ammo types, but IMO the need to deal with 3 different types to get that impressive performance is already a steep enough price to pay. 

Back on-topic, I also like how the MML-5 is usually an easy drop-in replacement for the SRM-6.  Even more than that, I like how it's easy to have any 'mech with an MML-5 have a simple companion variant swapping it out for a NARC launcher.  I'm kinda surprised that NARC (including iNARC) doesn't come up in this thread more, since NARC is usually available when MML are and it enhances both SRMs and LRMs. 

[Nahuris]

To me, the MML is a great weapon for when you don't know exactly what your opponent is going to field ---- and it makes a great backup to a weapon like the Heavy PPC --- Maybe enough extra damage to force a PSR, or to at least thin the armor that much more.... and the ability to be used as crit seekers. I also use them on slow heavy units, especially if they carry heavy weapons like Gauss Rifles, etc.  I have run an Alacorn, dropping one Gauss for 2 MML9's 2 tons of LRM, and a ton of SRM ammo......  I keep my long range, and I get some indirect, along with enough short range to keep people from trying the rush attack.

Nahuris

[iampoch]

Question: when placed on Clan mechs, are MMLs compatible with Artemis V?

[SCC]

Question: when placed on Clan mechs, are MMLs compatible with Artemis V?

That involves crossing the Tech Base line with add-ons, generally the answer is NO

[UnLimiTeD]

If you can afford an Artemis V system, you might as well just buy your clan LRM20 with it.

[iampoch]

That involves crossing the Tech Base line with add-ons, generally the answer is NO

If you can afford an Artemis V system, you might as well just buy your clan LRM20 with it.

Thanks, guys! I was trying to create a Daishi W ver 2 for a WiE unit, and I thought of making it mixed tech to reflect their affinity to LC. The LRM 20 was the most likely candidate to replace with an IS tech that the Clans don't have (I originally thought of ATM 9, but I find MMLs more flexible due to its ability to use special ammo). There was extra tonnage left, so I thought of adding Artemis V. Oh well, might as well go back to ATM 9 or SLRM 10

[HazMeat]

Bleargh, presumably some people model salvage in their games.  Maybe the Artemis add-on is scavenged from an otherwise unsalvageable weapon, and what you've got to use Artemis with is an MML. 

I don't know re: rules, but I can support SCC's answer since I know that PPC Caps don't work with Über-PPC.  I am powerful confused re: the ammo compatibility questions, though.  I lean toward incompatibility, FWIW. 

Since the point is a mixed-tech production 'mech, how about iNARC?  I'm ignorantly guessing that zellbrigen is still alive and of concern, so C3 goodies are hard to justify, but I expect that ECM/ECCM and Haywire pods would fly even if Nemesis would prolly be frowned upon.  Plus, the good-old homing pods enhance your other missiles, especially if your target takes cover that you can still do IDF over.  Most importantly, it allows possibility of melee attacks within Zell because they're done by the target upon itself!  "Why are you hitting yourself, huh?  Why are you hitting yourself?"  I think the option to try to dislodge iNarc pods is an upgrade, really.